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(Screen Rant)   Captain Marvel 2 director believes Captain America should've submitted to the Sokovia Accords   (screenrant.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Captain America, Avengers, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Marvel Comics, Ultron, Vision, Infinity War  
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1071 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 20 Oct 2021 at 11:41 AM (14 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-10-20 11:20:26 AM  
I think the writers and directors might take some of the blame.  They made him do it.
 
2021-10-20 11:25:26 AM  
i.kym-cdn.comView Full Size
 
2021-10-20 11:39:28 AM  
Let's say he did. He immediately convinced Wanda to destroy the mind stone. Now Thanos can't snap and end half of the life in the universe, Yay! But there's a Thanos with 5 of the 6 infinity stones wandering around, and he's shown he's more than willing to take a slower route to removing half the life in the universe. So, would it really have been better if Rogers had sacrificed Vision?

/Then there's the whole "Thanos had the time stone, what's to keep him from rewinding time to get the mind stone before it was destroyed anyway" bit
 
2021-10-20 11:45:11 AM  
Yeah, but then Ant-Man wouldn't have been arrested again, and this would have never happened.

Antony Plays Drums |Ant-Man and the Wasp[1080p]
Youtube FaL6aqp9maA


You want to live in that world? Go right ahead.
 
2021-10-20 11:49:39 AM  
Never would it be the morally correct thing for Steve to sacrifice Vision.  However, allowing Vision to sacrifice himself would be perfectly fine.

As a soldier, Steve should have understood that.  He tried sacrificing himself for others more than once.

But instead a lot of people died trying to keep Vision alive, but I guess they didn't matter because they didn't have any lines.
 
2021-10-20 12:17:22 PM  
From what I can tell there were only two people in the MCU capable of killing Thanos after he got all the stones.

Captain Marvel who was off doing whatever she does when she's not needed as a Deus Ex Machina.

And Thor, who struck a near fatal blow but, as Thanos himself noted, he "should have gone for the head."

So really, isn't this all Thor's fault for not going for the decapitation fatality when he had the chance?
 
2021-10-20 12:20:05 PM  
She's not wrong.

Without some type of oversight / supervision The Avengers were really just a bunch of vigilantes.

Caps complaint was stupid. What if the overseeing group wants you to do something bad? Well, the same thing that police officers and the military have always done. They either quit or they refuse an illegal order. Cap was just protecting his terrorist / assassin friend.
 
2021-10-20 12:20:44 PM  
Well, THIS offhand, nerdy musing certainly warrants headlines across the entire breadth of the online nerdiverse!
 
2021-10-20 12:23:21 PM  

Shostie: From what I can tell there were only two people in the MCU capable of killing Thanos after he got all the stones.

Captain Marvel who was off doing whatever she does when she's not needed as a Deus Ex Machina.

And Thor, who struck a near fatal blow but, as Thanos himself noted, he "should have gone for the head."

So really, isn't this all Thor's fault for not going for the decapitation fatality when he had the chance?


Nobody could stop Thanos when he had all the stones. Only Thanos's stupidity could defeat Thanos. If Thanos was in any way threatened he could stop time with the Time stone, nuke the planet he is on with the Power stone, and then teleport away with the Space stone.
 
2021-10-20 12:23:35 PM  

Shostie: From what I can tell there were only two people in the MCU capable of killing Thanos after he got all the stones.

Captain Marvel who was off doing whatever she does when she's not needed as a Deus Ex Machina.

And Thor, who struck a near fatal blow but, as Thanos himself noted, he "should have gone for the head."

So really, isn't this all Thor's fault for not going for the decapitation fatality when he had the chance?


Vision could apparently have bifurcated him with little to no effort.
 
2021-10-20 12:27:03 PM  

Unsung_Hero: Never would it be the morally correct thing for Steve to sacrifice Vision


Sure it would.

Sacrificing one person to save untold billions isn't even an hard choice in a very significant amount of prominent moral philosophies.
 
2021-10-20 12:29:16 PM  

Shostie: From what I can tell there were only two people in the MCU capable of killing Thanos after he got all the stones.

Captain Marvel who was off doing whatever she does when she's not needed as a Deus Ex Machina.

And Thor, who struck a near fatal blow but, as Thanos himself noted, he "should have gone for the head."

So really, isn't this all Thor's fault for not going for the decapitation fatality when he had the chance?


Yup. As mentioned above, Thanos could have used the Time stone to recreate the Mind stone ( if Strange could rebuild an apple then why couldn't Thanos do something similar). Thor had the perfect shot. He didn't even have to kill Thanos. He could have just cut off his arm like he did when the remaining team confronted Thanos in the garden. Sure, it wouldn't have been able to bring back all the people killed in Wakanda but it would have prevented it from getting all dusty.
 
2021-10-20 12:36:49 PM  

DerAppie: Unsung_Hero: Never would it be the morally correct thing for Steve to sacrifice Vision

Sure it would.

Sacrificing one person to save untold billions isn't even an hard choice in a very significant amount of prominent moral philosophies.


Now we know how Cap would have handled the trolley problem. If someone is your friend you save them and tell the rest of the universe to fark off and die.
 
2021-10-20 12:42:00 PM  
There's also the fact that Steve didn't know they'd fail so completely. If he'd have known they'd lose like that, who knows what he would have done
 
2021-10-20 12:43:16 PM  
I swear everyone who argues with Cap pretends that Caps recent experience with government organizations wasn't "They were massively infiltrated by HYDRA who planned to use all that power to murder everyone and crush dissent"

Also as if Ultron was "The Avengers fault" and not "Tony Stark's fault" (ok its a little Bruce Banner's fault as well)
 
2021-10-20 1:01:41 PM  

Slypork: DerAppie: Unsung_Hero: Never would it be the morally correct thing for Steve to sacrifice Vision

Sure it would.

Sacrificing one person to save untold billions isn't even an hard choice in a very significant amount of prominent moral philosophies.

Now we know how Cap would have handled the trolley problem. If someone is your friend you save them and tell the rest of the universe to fark off and die.


Sure, but then Cap is portrayed to be that way for everyone. Whoever was going to die is going to die. He won't sacrifice anyone, but will try to stop the trolley and whatever happens just happens.
 
2021-10-20 1:07:15 PM  
Dr. Strange investigated every possible timeline. Doing exactly what they they did was the only to defeat Thanos. Anything they would've done differently would result in Thanos countering it and still beating them, because he was stronger, smarter, better disciplined, and better organized. If you're not willing to accept the premise of a movie then why bother watching it. We could blame Captain Marvel for not doing anything while Thanos slaughtered billions of people across galaxy prior to the events of Infinity War. We could blame Wanda for not destroying the Vision's power stone earlier. Since she was the only one who could have done it anyway it was her call.  Captain America was probably trying to protect her as much as Vision. We could blame Dr. Strange, Captain Marvel, Vision, and Wanda for not teaming up against Thanos since they were power stone powered and so the most capable of fighting him. None of those scenarios would have made as a good of movie though.

/ Captain America was the villain of Civil War
// I still cheered when he picked up Mjolnir
/// Shut up! It was dusty in the theater when we found out he stayed in the past to grow old with Peggy.
 
2021-10-20 1:09:59 PM  
Completely glossing over the fact that sacrificing Vision didn't work.  If Rogers had sacrificed Vision, Thanos could simply do what he did when Wanda sacrificed vision -- rewind time, and take the stone anyway.
 
2021-10-20 1:15:10 PM  
I blame Captain Marvel for never just taking out Thanos at any of the very easy opportunities she had to have had before he got any Infinity Stones.
 
2021-10-20 1:22:53 PM  

dragoneer27: / Captain America was the villain of Civil War


Antagonist maybe. But he wasn't a villain.
 
2021-10-20 1:26:25 PM  
Regarding the Sokovia Accords, I still can't really tell what parts of the preceding movies were supposed to be setup, and which were just calling for a suspension of disbelief.  But yeah, Cap should have submitted to the Accords.

Rewatching Age of Ultron through a 2020-2021 lens, I kept on getting struck by the question, "what possible authority are they relying on to do any of this?"  Because they do stress the point that the Avengers are distinctly not the U.S. government, and the organizations they're fighting are also distinctly not real-life foreign governments.  That's fine. I'm sure the global box office (*cough*China) really appreciates that kind of political neutrality.

But that means you've got what amounts to a billionaire's private army fighting some private militia embedded in hypothetical adversarial countries that have effectively no agency to decide when said private army blows the shiat out of them.  It's Team America: World Police without the comedic self-awareness.  It'd be like if Elon Musk bought a couple of Predator drones and decided he was going to take out Boko Haram regardless of what we or Nigeria had to say about it.  I'm not saying his heart wouldn't be in the right place, but I don't even trust my own government to just usually only kill the right people in the best of cases.

But obviously Marvel isn't going to acknowledge that sort of moral ambiguity if it could tarnish the image of their heroes.  So Civil War ended up being in the uncanny valley of self-awareness.  Tony acknowledges they need to be leashed.  Cap worries about who holds the leash.  But it's all about them.  The due process and sovereignty of people who in no way consented to the arbitrary justice of the Avengers is hand-waived away.  Are we supposed to pick up on that?  Are we supposed to ignore that in the name of popcorn entertainment?  The movies kinda want you to do both.  But if the Avengers were even a little like our own world, then Captain America is clearly wrong and was basically a terrorist.
 
2021-10-20 1:34:01 PM  

Nuuu: Regarding the Sokovia Accords, I still can't really tell what parts of the preceding movies were supposed to be setup, and which were just calling for a suspension of disbelief.  But yeah, Cap should have submitted to the Accords.

Rewatching Age of Ultron through a 2020-2021 lens, I kept on getting struck by the question, "what possible authority are they relying on to do any of this?"  Because they do stress the point that the Avengers are distinctly not the U.S. government, and the organizations they're fighting are also distinctly not real-life foreign governments.  That's fine. I'm sure the global box office (*cough*China) really appreciates that kind of political neutrality.

But that means you've got what amounts to a billionaire's private army fighting some private militia embedded in hypothetical adversarial countries that have effectively no agency to decide when said private army blows the shiat out of them.  It's Team America: World Police without the comedic self-awareness.  It'd be like if Elon Musk bought a couple of Predator drones and decided he was going to take out Boko Haram regardless of what we or Nigeria had to say about it.  I'm not saying his heart wouldn't be in the right place, but I don't even trust my own government to just usually only kill the right people in the best of cases.

But obviously Marvel isn't going to acknowledge that sort of moral ambiguity if it could tarnish the image of their heroes.  So Civil War ended up being in the uncanny valley of self-awareness.  Tony acknowledges they need to be leashed.  Cap worries about who holds the leash.  But it's all about them.  The due process and sovereignty of people who in no way consented to the arbitrary justice of the Avengers is hand-waived away.  Are we supposed to pick up on that?  Are we supposed to ignore that in the name of popcorn entertainment?  The movies kinda want you to do both.  But if the Avengers were even a little like our own world, then Captain America is clearly wrong and was basically a terrorist.


Easy answer (for a comic book world):  The heroes are the only ones qualified and capable of holding their leash.  They need to get their own volcano lair and operate as an independent nation whose primary duty is policing the world.
 
2021-10-20 1:40:32 PM  
You give me 90+ minutes of Brie Larson in a film, and I'll pretend to listen to your opinion on a character in another film as if it makes sense to me.
 
2021-10-20 1:48:20 PM  

Shostie: From what I can tell there were only two people in the MCU capable of killing Thanos after he got all the stones.

Captain Marvel who was off doing whatever she does when she's not needed as a Deus Ex Machina.

And Thor, who struck a near fatal blow but, as Thanos himself noted, he "should have gone for the head."

So really, isn't this all Thor's fault for not going for the decapitation fatality when he had the chance?


Thanos said "You should have gone for the head", but it's not like that was an easy shot for Thor from how many yards away with Thanos using the power stone against him.  I'd say hitting him in the chest was a pretty farking great shot.

And no, Thor couldn't pull it out and chop his head off.  Thanos was busy monologuing.
 
2021-10-20 1:49:50 PM  

snowybunting: You give me 90+ minutes of Brie Larson in a film, and I'll pretend to listen to your opinion on a character in another film as if it makes sense to me.

God..I loved her look in this...my wife agreed...wise woman

Fark user imageView Full Size

 
2021-10-20 1:49:58 PM  

Shostie: From what I can tell there were only two people in the MCU capable of killing Thanos after he got all the stones.

Captain Marvel who was off doing whatever she does when she's not needed as a Deus Ex Machina.

And Thor, who struck a near fatal blow but, as Thanos himself noted, he "should have gone for the head."

So really, isn't this all Thor's fault for not going for the decapitation fatality when he had the chance?


Well Thor certainly thought so:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-20 1:50:08 PM  

Nuuu: But if the Avengers were even a little like our own world, then Captain America is clearly wrong and was basically a terrorist.


I don't know if I'd go so far as to say terrorist, given the targets and methodology, but definitely in violation of tons of international laws and probably a war criminal. For the sake of argument, let's focus on remaining Hydra operatives. Much like the post-SHIELD Avengers, they're clearly not part of an internationally recognized government/entity, but they're also clearly part of an violent militaristic organization. Do Hydra operatives count as citizens or are they enemy combatants?

I guess the closest real-world comparison is the difference between an American soldier, operating under the aegis of the American military, shoots and kills a Taliban soldier vs if I hat up and do the same (say, in 2019), much like your Elon Musk comparison. What kind of legal grey area is that, from an international community perspective?
 
2021-10-20 2:13:55 PM  

DerAppie: dragoneer27: / Captain America was the villain of Civil War

Antagonist maybe. But he wasn't a villain.


No, he's still the protagonist.  The film is literally called Captain America: Civil War.
 
2021-10-20 2:49:49 PM  

Shostie: From what I can tell there were only two people in the MCU capable of killing Thanos after he got all the stones.


No.  There is another.

i.cdn.newsbytesapp.comView Full Size
 
2021-10-20 2:56:51 PM  

Bootleg: Let's say he did. He immediately convinced Wanda to destroy the mind stone. Now Thanos can't snap and end half of the life in the universe, Yay! But there's a Thanos with 5 of the 6 infinity stones wandering around, and he's shown he's more than willing to take a slower route to removing half the life in the universe. So, would it really have been better if Rogers had sacrificed Vision?

/Then there's the whole "Thanos had the time stone, what's to keep him from rewinding time to get the mind stone before it was destroyed anyway" bit


It's that last bit, I don't think she thought it all the way through. Thanos would still have had the time stone. He could have still done exactly the same thing as he did to get the mind stone - it's just that Vision's body would have been a little cooler when he did it. No real difference to Thanos.
 
2021-10-20 2:59:31 PM  
Every plumber tells you the work of the last plumber was all wrong.
Every electrician tells you the work of the last electrician was all wrong.
and if you still don't understand the pattern here, there's no point in going on more for you. ;)
 
2021-10-20 3:05:25 PM  

PvtStash: Every plumber tells you the work of the last plumber was all wrong.
Every electrician tells you the work of the last electrician was all wrong.
and if you still don't understand the pattern here, there's no point in going on more for you. ;)


You don't call a new guy if the old one did the job right.
 
2021-10-20 3:10:35 PM  

snowybunting: You give me 90+ minutes of Brie Larson in a film, and I'll pretend to listen to your opinion on a character in another film as if it makes sense to me.


Is she going to be in this?  I thought I heard a while back that she wasn't?
 
2021-10-20 3:17:04 PM  

Unsung_Hero: Easy answer (for a comic book world):  The heroes are the only ones qualified and capable of holding their leash.  They need to get their own volcano lair and operate as an independent nation whose primary duty is policing the world.


Like this?

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-20 3:26:23 PM  

Unsung_Hero: PvtStash: Every plumber tells you the work of the last plumber was all wrong.
Every electrician tells you the work of the last electrician was all wrong.
and if you still don't understand the pattern here, there's no point in going on more for you. ;)

You don't call a new guy if the old one did the job right.


THIS

When I worked telcom repairs, I'd say "I'm the last company tech you'll see, because either I'll fix it, or you'll switch to the competition"
 
2021-10-20 3:27:23 PM  
Hey!  I can finally see in-thread images again!
 
2021-10-20 3:37:54 PM  
It'd be like if Elon Musk bought a couple of Predator drones and decided he was going to take out Boko Haram regardless of what we or Nigeria had to say about it.
--- that sounds freakin' cool!!
 
2021-10-20 3:41:25 PM  

Alphax: Hey!  I can finally see in-thread images again!


Well, that didn't last long.
 
2021-10-20 3:52:56 PM  

madgonad: She's not wrong.

Without some type of oversight / supervision The Avengers were really just a bunch of vigilantes.

Caps complaint was stupid. What if the overseeing group wants you to do something bad? Well, the same thing that police officers and the military have always done. They either quit or they refuse an illegal order. Cap was just protecting his terrorist / assassin friend.


I've got bad news...
 
2021-10-20 4:06:58 PM  

squegeebooo: I've got bad news...


People in the military have always deviated from orders based upon personal feelings. How do you think Napoleon came to power? US military courts also have a long history of punishing the enlisted that go along with illegal orders.
 
2021-10-20 4:09:38 PM  

Nuuu: Regarding the Sokovia Accords, I still can't really tell what parts of the preceding movies were supposed to be setup, and which were just calling for a suspension of disbelief.  But yeah, Cap should have submitted to the Accords.

Rewatching Age of Ultron through a 2020-2021 lens, I kept on getting struck by the question, "what possible authority are they relying on to do any of this?"  Because they do stress the point that the Avengers are distinctly not the U.S. government, and the organizations they're fighting are also distinctly not real-life foreign governments.  That's fine. I'm sure the global box office (*cough*China) really appreciates that kind of political neutrality.

But that means you've got what amounts to a billionaire's private army fighting some private militia embedded in hypothetical adversarial countries that have effectively no agency to decide when said private army blows the shiat out of them.  It's Team America: World Police without the comedic self-awareness.  It'd be like if Elon Musk bought a couple of Predator drones and decided he was going to take out Boko Haram regardless of what we or Nigeria had to say about it.  I'm not saying his heart wouldn't be in the right place, but I don't even trust my own government to just usually only kill the right people in the best of cases.

But obviously Marvel isn't going to acknowledge that sort of moral ambiguity if it could tarnish the image of their heroes.  So Civil War ended up being in the uncanny valley of self-awareness.  Tony acknowledges they need to be leashed.  Cap worries about who holds the leash.  But it's all about them.  The due process and sovereignty of people who in no way consented to the arbitrary justice of the Avengers is hand-waived away.  Are we supposed to pick up on that?  Are we supposed to ignore that in the name of popcorn entertainment?  The movies kinda want you to do both.  But if the Avengers were even a little like our own world, then Captain America is clearl ...


The other important part of the story is that in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Cap had signed on with S.H.I.E.L.D. He accepted authority, he played on the team, he followed orders, and doing so came within a few breaths of seeing a fascist organization murder 20+ million people, and either take over the world, or kick off WW III (because I don't believe for a moment every nation on Earth would have knuckled under). Cap only prevented that by going off the grid and off the books with his hand-picked team.

Winter Soldier presented the problem of corrupt authority subverting the institutions intended to prevent their rise to power.

Age of Ultron presented the problem of accountability for mistakes and collateral damage.

These are both ultimately social problems more than physical ones. Cap felt the former problem was the more pressing one, Iron Man felt the latter problem was the more pressing one. The reality is that the more pressing problem is always going to be the problem currently threatening you, and sometimes precautions for one problem will hamper the other.

Cap's misgivings and precautions for corrupt authority meant he did not trust the Sokovia accords, because it could be easily leveraged into another Hydra situation.

Iron Man's misgivings and precautions for protecting the world from rogue superhuman actors meant he did not trust himself or the other heroes, because the consequences of their mistakes led to things like Ultron, and so felt that the Sokovia accords were necessary.

What makes this compelling is that neither is completely right or completely wrong.

We see this in the real world, in both ways, when corrupt authority is abused, and when rogue actors without oversight cause great harm.

Too much authority leads to corruption, graft, stagnation, social stratification, loss of freedom.

Not enough authority leads to abuse, exploitation, pollution, oppression of the powerless many by the powerful few.

There's no perfect solution, because people are crafty selfish bastards who will always seek the weak points and loopholes of any system of laws. It's always a balancing act, and the appropriate balance changes over time in response to changes in society and technology.
 
2021-10-20 4:19:44 PM  

madgonad: squegeebooo: I've got bad news...

People in the military have always deviated from orders based upon personal feelings. How do you think Napoleon came to power? US military courts also have a long history of punishing the enlisted that go along with illegal orders.


Napoleon came to power from a coup.  Which I'm sure had multiple illegal orders in it.  And, even if you accept the legality of the coup, Napoleon literally had a mini-coup within the coup, which would have then had illegal orders from within the legality, such that it was, of the main coup.

So, your prime example is a bunch of military people NOT refusing illegal orders, for your point that the military "either quit or they refuse an illegal order."Truly you have a dizzying intellect.
 
2021-10-20 4:26:47 PM  
Wasn't the point that kinda everybody made "mistakes" in just the right order that it led to an eventual pyrrhic win?
 
2021-10-20 5:31:05 PM  
Kinda off topic but closer to the topic of CM2, when did Monica Rambeau get powers? Wasn't she just a normal human girl in CM?
 
2021-10-20 5:56:27 PM  

mcmnky: Kinda off topic but closer to the topic of CM2, when did Monica Rambeau get powers? Wasn't she just a normal human girl in CM?


WandaVision
 
2021-10-20 6:15:05 PM  

Farce-Side: mcmnky: Kinda off topic but closer to the topic of CM2, when did Monica Rambeau get powers? Wasn't she just a normal human girl in CM?

WandaVision


Huh. I remember her having powers, just don't remember her getting powers. Might need to rewatch. Eh, probably just something Wanda imagined up.
 
2021-10-20 6:21:13 PM  

mcmnky: Farce-Side: mcmnky: Kinda off topic but closer to the topic of CM2, when did Monica Rambeau get powers? Wasn't she just a normal human girl in CM?

WandaVision

Huh. I remember her having powers, just don't remember her getting powers. Might need to rewatch. Eh, probably just something Wanda imagined up.


If I recall correctly, the powers were a result of her breaking through Wanda's magical barrier or something
 
2021-10-20 7:06:23 PM  

madgonad: She's not wrong.

Without some type of oversight / supervision The Avengers were really just a bunch of vigilantes.

Caps complaint was stupid. What if the overseeing group wants you to do something bad? Well, the same thing that police officers and the military have always done. They either quit or they refuse an illegal order. Cap was just protecting his terrorist / assassin friend.


Was he a terrorist/assassin though?

For decades he was little more than a smart weapon.  Almost completely mindless other than the orders of his handlers.  It's a discussion I've had around similar scenarios, but the crux of it comes down to state of mind and voluntary/involuntary participation.

Hypothetical:

If you go out drinking, get completely hammered, get in the car, and kill someone, that's on you.  But what if you're the DD, but get drugged without your knowledge, have no idea, think "I'm a little tired" and the person that drugged you says "Yeah, why don't you head home?  I got this."  You get in the car, black out, and end up hitting and killing someone.

Is that death on you, or the person that drugged you and encouraged you to get behind the wheel?  How much responsibility do you bear under the mistaken impression you were just tired?
 
2021-10-20 7:09:58 PM  
Hawkeye killed dozens of people while under mind control, and everyone forgave him really darn quick.
 
2021-10-20 8:30:26 PM  

Jack Sabbath: Shostie: From what I can tell there were only two people in the MCU capable of killing Thanos after he got all the stones.

No.  There is another.

[i.cdn.newsbytesapp.com image 850x478]


I love the way this shiatty character has been supported by fans who aren't interested in stories or consistent characterization. Especially when that blind artist started to draw the book and the character got thick and fugly. Then the few fans for the character (can't keep a book going) were frothing at the mouth about how great she was. Comics suck these days, and this character was the canary poison in the coal mine.
 
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