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(Salon)   Scientists at Fukushima confirm what Godzilla and Mothra have known for years: radiation is fine for animals   (salon.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Chernobyl disaster, new study finds, radioactive areas, human history, Colorado State University, nuclear power plant, populations of wild boar, radiation levels  
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738 clicks; posted to STEM » on 20 Oct 2021 at 1:17 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-10-19 10:34:33 PM  
If radiation wasn't really dangerous, the rich people would have bought up all that land by now and turned it into casinos and payday loan companies.
 
2021-10-19 11:05:42 PM  
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2021-10-19 11:40:02 PM  

Weaver95: If radiation wasn't really dangerous, the rich people would have bought up all that land by now and turned it into casinos and payday loan companies.


The scientists aren't saying that it's good for *us* or that it was good for those animals that died from radiation there over the years, just that it didn't turn out to be as horrible of an ecological disaster as it should have been (according to what we previously knew).

With the ecology in question not necessarily including us: "Some biologists regard Chernobyl's exclusion zone as an ecological success, as plants and animals have flourished in the absence of humans."
 
2021-10-20 1:34:41 AM  
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/agrees
 
2021-10-20 1:52:46 AM  
We all secretly yearn for kaiju.
 
2021-10-20 1:54:06 AM  
i3.cpcache.comView Full Size

High and stared at the word for too long. Thanks, internet, for never letting me down.
 
2021-10-20 2:05:31 AM  
Same thing happened around Chernobyl. Animals had shorter lifespans due to radiation and cancers, but adapted by becoming capable of having young earlier in life and absolutely thrived in the absence of humans. Still a crap environment to live in but humans always farking ruin everything they touch, so any area they avoid is a damn godmine
 
2021-10-20 2:28:11 AM  
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2021-10-20 2:37:04 AM  
FTFA:
That suggests that humans may not need to be as fearful as they currently are about moving back into exclusion areas.


Maybe the fear comes not from the reality of the radiation, but from people eager to profit from the fear.  Maybe?
 
2021-10-20 3:07:25 AM  
A regular reminder that, like the Chernobyl exclusion zone, often the worst pressure on wild animals is the mere presence of humans.  Subtract the humans and whatever other pressures remain, almost universally, are a lesser danger to their thriving.
 
2021-10-20 3:12:12 AM  

spudbeach: FTFA:That suggests that humans may not need to be as fearful as they currently are about moving back into exclusion areas.

Maybe the fear comes not from the reality of the radiation, but from people eager to profit from the fear.  Maybe?


Conspiracies are starting to be more boring than honest assessment.
 
2021-10-20 3:29:56 AM  
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"Don't judge us, people!"
 
2021-10-20 3:40:22 AM  

FatherChaos: [Fark user image 850x566]

"Don't judge us, people!"


Bebop needs to put some damn clothes on.
 
2021-10-20 3:47:54 AM  
Ra-di-a-tion. Yes, indeed. You hear the most outrageous lies about it. Half-baked goggle-box do-gooders telling everybody it's bad for you. Pernicious nonsense. Everybody could stand a hundred chest X-rays a year. They ought to have them, too.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-20 4:00:59 AM  

spudbeach: That suggests that humans may not need to be as fearful as they currently are about moving back into exclusion areas.


Maybe the fear comes not from the reality of the radiation, but from people eager to profit from the fear. Maybe?


Profit from fear? How?  This area is mostly destroyed.  People have left and they're never returning.  Japan has a declining population and so there's no one to resettle these cities.  The people remaining are mostly older and refuse to move.

As for the land itself, Fukushima is not Tokyo where land is incredibly valuable.  Fukushima is like Wisconsin, Japan.  So there's your conspiracy theory.

Mr Itakura Masao who returned to live in Tomioka Town, Fukushima Prefecture.
Youtube Kq5wj4e9Isw
 
2021-10-20 4:35:15 AM  
Profit from fear? How?  This area is mostly destroyed.  People have left and they're never returning.  Japan has a declining population and so there's no one to resettle these cities.  The people remaining are mostly older and refuse to move.

Umm -- like nobody ever used fear to sell a newspaper?  Nobody ever used fear to win an election?  Nobody ever used fear to profit off of a massive over response to something that isn't that bad?

This is Fark, for fark's sake, we know that the media can be ridiculous.

Come on -- the Japanese government has set radiation limits at a tenth of what other governments have, and even those are conservative!

Radiation is a naturally occurring part of the environment.  Just take a Geiger counter to a shaker of potassium chloride (salt for folks that can't have sodium chloride), and then reflect that potassium is an essential part of your body.

See xkcd for a good radiation chart.
 
2021-10-20 5:23:11 AM  

spudbeach: Profit from fear? How?  This area is mostly destroyed.  People have left and they're never returning.  Japan has a declining population and so there's no one to resettle these cities.  The people remaining are mostly older and refuse to move.

Umm -- like nobody ever used fear to sell a newspaper?  Nobody ever used fear to win an election?  Nobody ever used fear to profit off of a massive over response to something that isn't that bad?

This is Fark, for fark's sake, we know that the media can be ridiculous.

Come on -- the Japanese government has set radiation limits at a tenth of what other governments have, and even those are conservative!

Radiation is a naturally occurring part of the environment.  Just take a Geiger counter to a shaker of potassium chloride (salt for folks that can't have sodium chloride), and then reflect that potassium is an essential part of your body.

See xkcd for a good radiation chart.


The animals returned to these two places for 3 reasons.  First, humans don't kill them there and Second, they can't think beyond today, and third their life spans are generally much shorter than humans so cancer has much less time to develop.
Getting health advice from an online comic is not a good idea.
 
2021-10-20 5:30:33 AM  
My god....you mean to tell me that animals that live 20 years AT BEST are at a far lower risk of developing cancer??????


Im pretty sure a 5th grader could have figured that one out. How much money did we waste on this one?
 
2021-10-20 7:22:11 AM  

haknudsen: spudbeach: Profit from fear? How?  This area is mostly destroyed.  People have left and they're never returning.  Japan has a declining population and so there's no one to resettle these cities.  The people remaining are mostly older and refuse to move.

Umm -- like nobody ever used fear to sell a newspaper?  Nobody ever used fear to win an election?  Nobody ever used fear to profit off of a massive over response to something that isn't that bad?

This is Fark, for fark's sake, we know that the media can be ridiculous.

Come on -- the Japanese government has set radiation limits at a tenth of what other governments have, and even those are conservative!

Radiation is a naturally occurring part of the environment.  Just take a Geiger counter to a shaker of potassium chloride (salt for folks that can't have sodium chloride), and then reflect that potassium is an essential part of your body.

See xkcd for a good radiation chart.

The animals returned to these two places for 3 reasons.  First, humans don't kill them there and Second, they can't think beyond today, and third their life spans are generally much shorter than humans so cancer has much less time to develop.
Getting health advice from an online comic is not a good idea.


Do you have a specific complaint about Munro's work in this instance?

It's not giving any health advice, it's merely listing radiation dosage and effect in a graphical format, making it easier to grasp intuitively.
 
2021-10-20 7:58:10 AM  
Much like caffeine, it depends on the dose. A a few cups of coffee a day for a year are fine; 100g crystalline tomorrow will put you in the ground.


A couple years living at slightly elevated background levels? No problem. Playing fetch with a Cobalt-60 rod? Buh bye.
 
2021-10-20 8:45:40 AM  
It's a message we refuse to understand.

The damage we do to the environment doesn't really matter to the Earth. We're part of a slow-moving self-balancing system. Life on this planet has been through worse things than us on our worst day.

From nature's perspective we're just another overly successful species too stupid to maintain equilibrium with our environment and thereby destroying the environment that generated our success.

It's really really easy to learn from the biological record what happens to species who generate such imbalances. It isn't good news . . . for us.

Radiation, increased heat, whatever, the system just sees it as increased energy which historically means some stuff is gonna die and some new stuff is gonna get made in a new equilibrium. And that state may not be somewhere we can live.
 
2021-10-20 8:49:40 AM  

Boudyro: It's a message we refuse to understand.

The damage we do to the environment doesn't really matter to the Earth. We're part of a slow-moving self-balancing system. Life on this planet has been through worse things than us on our worst day.

From nature's perspective we're just another overly successful species too stupid to maintain equilibrium with our environment and thereby destroying the environment that generated our success.

It's really really easy to learn from the biological record what happens to species who generate such imbalances. It isn't good news . . . for us.

Radiation, increased heat, whatever, the system just sees it as increased energy which historically means some stuff is gonna die and some new stuff is gonna get made in a new equilibrium. And that state may not be somewhere we can live.


You were doing good up until the last sentence.  Humans have occupied just about every single environment on dry land from the frozen arctic to driest deserts and everything in between.

We'll manage.
 
2021-10-20 9:22:07 AM  
There is hardly a more defining principle in my life of the last decade than the certainty I have that I and all that I hold dear are safe from radiation from Fukushima. And I have been since about March 14 or so.

I don't have the energy to go round and round with all this again, and it is hard to know what observations and truisms are going to resonate with people reading this. But I will trot out a couple.

A community can be fragile and obstinate at the same time. A government can do everything right, but fail against well organized campaigns of fear. Proving a negative is nearly impossible, even with 10 years of irrefutable evidence.

All up and down the coast, communities have re-established themselves to a greater or lesser degree, but it is hard to bring people back if they can't get basic services they need. And nobody will provide services if people do not need them. Chicken and egg problems that were solved a century and a half ago have to be resolved all over again today, radiation or not. Some areas "near" Fukushima Daiichi are only 10% repopulated, others are at 30% to 70%. Without a whole lot of young people and jobs and growth opportunities, people will find better places to go and settle.

We saw Fauci and a very few others go up against idiot politicians and self-serving bureaucrats and craven media within the last year. The Fukushima situation was nearly identical. My interpretation is that local and national government did and excellent job getting people evacuated and keeping people safe. But you had an idiot Prime Minister doing some grandstanding, a panic monger heading the US NRC whipping up hysteria in the US government based on patently false information, and international media and anti-nuclear pressure groups being their opportunistic selves. Just as Trump and that woman with the scarves and Fox News did, chaos was whipped up and fanned FOR YEARS.

You can set conservative standards for radiation exposure, and STILL people will be frightened into thinking that they are going to die. You can change the standards, clean things up, let time pass, and STILL people will think they are unsafe. Show them that nobody is dying or even sick, and they will STILL be terrified. Why? Because "merchants of fear" make bank on it. There are groups in Hiroshima and Nagasaki campaigning against all things nuclear because of a war that was over 75 years ago. There are groups that fight against storage of nuclear waste and then fight against nuclear power because it can't store nuclear waste.

The evidence shows nobody is dying. Has died. Is sick. Was sick. Animals living in the area outdoors and in entire unsheltered and uncontrolled conditions are not showing illness or cancers. The same people who say that their short lifespans show no ill effects are the same people who used to say that their short lifespans would be likely to show mutations and genetic defects.

I am utterly disappointed. I was a member of the World Wildlife Fund when I was 8. I might be listed as a charter member. If I thought there were a SHRED of truth to the crap that environmental groups have dragged the people of Fukushima through, I would have left this country a decade ago. It is a disgrace. Greenpeace, The Union of Concerned Scientists, Asahi Shimbun, Japan TImes, New York Times. They are all a bunch of assholes who never tried to get the story right. They have frequently made shiat up and have had to retract some of it.  They gave up the truth because they thought they were doing-good. The Guardian's Benoit, I think is his name, figured things out early and stuck to his guns. Good on him. Helen Caldicott has called him mentally ill. Go watch the interview and decide who has the illness.

You can't promise people that a vaccine will not kill them. And you can't promise someone that they won't get cancer for one reason or another. But that doesn't mean that opportunistic partisans should feel free to make things worse during a public health crisis.

I am disappointed in neo-liberalism as well, sadly. Efficient, rational government can be railroaded AGAINST the public interest and AGAINST scientific principles if the enemies of the public mount a well-funded campaign of fear. I learned this LOOOONG before the world heard of COVID-19.

Etc.

Humanity will suffer the consequences. Fukushima killed nobody with its radiation. I call that a TRIUMPH wrested from the worst of circumstances. A world that looks at that outcome and sees failure is a world cowed by irrational panic. Humanity will march away from nuclear power and down a path of almost certain failure and certain waste. It rejects opportunity and reason and embraces doom. It won't be the dumbest thing humans have ever done, but it will be high on the list.

/ By the way, if people want to call Fukushima the Wisconsin of Japan, that is fine. I am going to call it the Santa Barbara of Japan. People can believe what they want, but. Look at a map and use your brain.
// Life is not easy in that part of Fukushima, obviously. The reasons for it are not obvious. It ain't Liberia or Lebanon. It has the same problems that Missouri and Indiana have, without the meth.
/// The greatest threat to liberalism is that it breeds critics faster than it breeds supporters. The second greatest threat is that it grants credibility to critics based on their professed desire to help others rather than examining and evaluating the critiques. Charlatans will take advantage of those tendencies.
 
2021-10-20 9:25:48 AM  

2fardownthread: There is hardly a more defining principle in my life of the last decade than the certainty I have that I and all that I hold dear are safe from radiation from Fukushima. And I have been since about March 14 or so.

I don't have the energy to go round and round with all this again, and it is hard to know what observations and truisms are going to resonate with people reading this. But I will trot out a couple.

A community can be fragile and obstinate at the same time. A government can do everything right, but fail against well organized campaigns of fear. Proving a negative is nearly impossible, even with 10 years of irrefutable evidence.

All up and down the coast, communities have re-established themselves to a greater or lesser degree, but it is hard to bring people back if they can't get basic services they need. And nobody will provide services if people do not need them. Chicken and egg problems that were solved a century and a half ago have to be resolved all over again today, radiation or not. Some areas "near" Fukushima Daiichi are only 10% repopulated, others are at 30% to 70%. Without a whole lot of young people and jobs and growth opportunities, people will find better places to go and settle.

We saw Fauci and a very few others go up against idiot politicians and self-serving bureaucrats and craven media within the last year. The Fukushima situation was nearly identical. My interpretation is that local and national government did and excellent job getting people evacuated and keeping people safe. But you had an idiot Prime Minister doing some grandstanding, a panic monger heading the US NRC whipping up hysteria in the US government based on patently false information, and international media and anti-nuclear pressure groups being their opportunistic selves. Just as Trump and that woman with the scarves and Fox News did, chaos was whipped up and fanned FOR YEARS.

You can set conservative standards for radiation exposure, and STILL people will be frighte ...


This was almost as long as the article was.
 
2021-10-20 9:36:11 AM  
That freaking book above is not a threadjack.

Humans are part of nature, and where humans have retreated, the animals have pushed into the gap. To me, the oddity is the unreasonable human retreat, not the predictable response of wild animals.

The chaos is chaotic. Humans were compelled to leave their homes and their junk and orderly farms and orchards.

Thereby, they created this space for animals. They are unafraid. Elton John had a popular song called GREY SEAL where he acknowledges that animals only see what is real and presumably ignore any propaganda or reason to the contrary. He calls them wise for doing so. Of course. And boy are they healthy.

Nothing about the article surprises me in the least. It is a story that I follow. I am living it. Within 100 meters of my home are posted warnings about incursions of wild monkeys, bears, boars... cautioning people to accompany their pets and small children especially.

There is an uninterrupted chain of forest land extending from southern Fukushima prefecture all the way up to Hokkaido. There is no better terrain for a guerrilla insurgency, or one of boars or bears either.
 
2021-10-20 10:25:56 AM  

Merltech: 2fardownthread: There is hardly a more defining principle in my life of the last decade than the certainty I have that I and all that I hold dear are safe from radiation from Fukushima. And I have been since about March 14 or so.

I don't have the energy to go round and round with all this again, and it is hard to know what observations and truisms are going to resonate with people reading this. But I will trot out a couple.

A community can be fragile and obstinate at the same time. A government can do everything right, but fail against well organized campaigns of fear. Proving a negative is nearly impossible, even with 10 years of irrefutable evidence.

All up and down the coast, communities have re-established themselves to a greater or lesser degree, but it is hard to bring people back if they can't get basic services they need. And nobody will provide services if people do not need them. Chicken and egg problems that were solved a century and a half ago have to be resolved all over again today, radiation or not. Some areas "near" Fukushima Daiichi are only 10% repopulated, others are at 30% to 70%. Without a whole lot of young people and jobs and growth opportunities, people will find better places to go and settle.

We saw Fauci and a very few others go up against idiot politicians and self-serving bureaucrats and craven media within the last year. The Fukushima situation was nearly identical. My interpretation is that local and national government did and excellent job getting people evacuated and keeping people safe. But you had an idiot Prime Minister doing some grandstanding, a panic monger heading the US NRC whipping up hysteria in the US government based on patently false information, and international media and anti-nuclear pressure groups being their opportunistic selves. Just as Trump and that woman with the scarves and Fox News did, chaos was whipped up and fanned FOR YEARS.

You can set conservative standards for radiation exposure, and STILL people ...


An extempore...

that I have been compiling for a decade.

Everyone raves about something, probably.

Guys come back from Iraq and hear a backfire of a car and think about watching their "communities" get assaulted and wrecked by something from somewhere. And they call it PTSD. They get abandonment issues, survivor guilt, trust issues...

I am a wimp because I got all of that while cowering in my living room with my family as aftershocks came rumbling through the house every few minutes for days. Looked at the paper on Saturday and the front page showed devastation and warned of looming nuclear problems. All foreign members of the community left. No utilities. No distribution. No gasoline. Isolated and missing family members. My government abandoned me. My family in the US was just... scared... and of no help. To borrow from Taylor Swift.... I go back to March 11 all the time.

I resent that the English language media lied to me and tried to make me fearful. It would be as though I trusted Fox News to give me the truth about COVID19 vaccination and then found out they were just manipulating people for the money. The Japanese media and Benoit at the Guardian and others gave it to me straight, and I commend them for that.

Opinions. I have a million of them. But not everybody has an idea of what things MEAN, even if they figure out what HAPPENED, which they don't always do.

Had I written a really really good book with all of my insights in 2012 and warned people about manipulation of fear and the vulnerabilities of liberal democracy....


....would 700,000 Americans be alive today?

And with all the vilification of Colin Powell, people should really not forget that every single media outlet but Knight Ridder, screwed up the WMD story and killed far more than 700,000 people.

I tell my story because it needs to be told over and over.
 
2021-10-20 11:15:47 AM  

2fardownthread: / By the way, if people want to call Fukushima the Wisconsin of Japan, that is fine. I am going to call it the Santa Barbara of Japan. People can believe what they want, but. Look at a map and use your brain.


Okay.  Here's Santa Barbara.

robbreport.comView Full Size


Here's Fukushima.

ak.picdn.netView Full Size



Here's Wisconsin.

westbyhouse.comView Full Size


If you had to group two of these pictures together and say one doesn't belong, which two would you pick?
 
2021-10-20 11:26:48 AM  
And apparently I did that completely wrong somehow.
 
2021-10-20 11:41:22 AM  

Baron Harkonnen: 2fardownthread: / By the way, if people want to call Fukushima the Wisconsin of Japan, that is fine. I am going to call it the Santa Barbara of Japan. People can believe what they want, but. Look at a map and use your brain.

Okay.  Here's Santa Barbara.

[robbreport.com image 815x458]

Here's Fukushima.

[ak.picdn.net image 815x609]


Here's Wisconsin.

[westbyhouse.com image 815x484]

If you had to group two of these pictures together and say one doesn't belong, which two would you pick?


Obviously Fuka does not belong, its the only one with numbers all over it


Even a CAPATCHA would tell you that
 
2021-10-20 12:22:41 PM  

Baron Harkonnen: 2fardownthread: / By the way, if people want to call Fukushima the Wisconsin of Japan, that is fine. I am going to call it the Santa Barbara of Japan. People can believe what they want, but. Look at a map and use your brain.

Okay.  Here's Santa Barbara.

[robbreport.com image 815x458]

Here's Fukushima.

[ak.picdn.net image 815x609]


Here's Wisconsin.

[westbyhouse.com image 815x484]

If you had to group two of these pictures together and say one doesn't belong, which two would you pick?


Now try again with a beach front community in Fukushima because the reactor was at the ocean.
 
2021-10-20 2:21:31 PM  
2fardownthread:
We saw Fauci and a very few others go up against idiot politicians and self-serving bureaucrats and craven media within the last year. The Fukushima situation was nearly identical. My interpretation is that local and national government did and excellent job getting people evacuated and keeping people safe. But you had an idiot Prime Minister doing some grandstanding, a panic monger heading the US NRC whipping up hysteria in the US government based on patently false information, and international media and anti-nuclear pressure groups being their opportunistic selves. Just as Trump and that woman with the scarves and Fox News did, chaos was whipped up and fanned FOR YEARS.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say -- you just said it _much_ better.

/ I'm in Wisconsin right now -- it's no Fukushima
// Does have nuke plants on the water though
/// No tsunamis on Lake Michigan, though
 
2021-10-20 2:35:36 PM  

Weaver95: If radiation wasn't really dangerous, the rich people would have bought up all that land by now and turned it into casinos and payday loan companies.


Part of the problem is that too many people have too simple a mindset when it comes to the effects of radiation. They assume that if there is radiation everything turns into Mad Max Wasteland. The contaminated region around the Chernobyl may be uninhabitable for humans for a couple hundred years but that doesn't mean that the grass isn't going to grow, that doesn't mean the migratory Birds aren't going to stop off to rest in the pond. What we are seeing are higher levels of mutations and Cancers developing in creatures that are still living there. While things can live there and wildlife seems to thrive, it's not because radiation isn't as bad as we think, it's more a reflection on the damage that we as humans caused to our everyday environment. Our natural predation and displacement of wildlife causes more acute damage to Wildlife. The long-term effects from the radiation aren't going to be as noticeable unless you decide to eat the animals, especially higher-tier Predators, from that region.

Unsuitable for human habitation is not the same as complete deserted Wasteland. Nature finds a way, and because of radiation that way is not going to include humans in those regions for a very very long time.
 
2021-10-20 8:21:17 PM  
The main problem with the radiation is the development of cancer. Most animals don't have the lifespan of a human being, so it's not such a big deal as long as it's low enough for them to live normal lives and die from something else before the cancer has time to develop.

Lots of animals in the wild have significantly shorter lives than ones held in captivity, too. Circle of life and all that.

Ordinary survival of the fittest would ensure those born with severe mutations would be out-competed by those that were basically fine. If your average field mouse has 6 babies - if half of them were horrible mutants (unlikely, but go with it), those would be the ones eaten first by predators. The mice have short lives, so whatever DNA damage accumulates from the radiation would be unlikely to cause lethal tumors before the mice died of natural causes...  or got eaten. lol. Eating mutated animals wouldn't be a problem.

The longer the lifespan of the animal, the worse it might be for them, but bigger animals tend to have larger territories, so they might spend less time on average near the areas of higher radioactivity than some smaller animals. Like... slugs in the hot zone might get a higher dose spending their entire short lives there, but a deer might graze a bit, then run to another area to graze some more.
 
2021-10-21 12:26:54 AM  

DerAppie: Now try again with a beach front community in Fukushima because the reactor was at the ocean.


Okay.


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