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(Boing Boing)   New Salem 'Witch Trials' to redefine the meaning of the word 'Witch'. Meaning of word 'Is' still unresolved   (boingboing.net) divider line
    More: Interesting, Salem witch trials, Witchcraft, Salem, Massachusetts, Salem Witch Trials, fashion designer Alexander McQueen's Fall, Portraits of Witches, light-sensitive materials, historical trauma  
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1953 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Oct 2021 at 4:50 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-10-18 3:40:31 PM  
Remember that wicca is a religion based on duality - male and female, in balance. That means male witches are totally a thing that exists kids.
Something to keep in mind before y'all start trashing my religion.
 
2021-10-18 3:42:06 PM  
I'll check this thread later. I'm sure it'll be awesome to read up on all the bigoted responses and hate pagans for existing.
 
2021-10-18 4:20:15 PM  
Well if it weighs the same as a duck...
 
2021-10-18 4:52:03 PM  
I know what "Is" is.  I'm out of the hospital and ready to party!

media.npr.orgView Full Size
 
2021-10-18 4:53:03 PM  
That all depends on how cold witches tits is.
 
2021-10-18 4:54:08 PM  

Weaver95: I'll check this thread later. I'm sure it'll be awesome to read up on all the bigoted responses and hate pagans for existing.


if it makes you feel better, my direct ancestors did their best to help sneak out people from these situations during the Salem Witch Trials.
 
2021-10-18 4:54:46 PM  

Weaver95: I'll check this thread later. I'm sure it'll be awesome to read up on all the bigoted responses and hate pagans for existing.


Nah. You're cool.

Or, at least, not not-cool.
 
2021-10-18 4:57:31 PM  
I don't know which witch is which.
 
2021-10-18 4:59:47 PM  
"Bewitched person," please
 
2021-10-18 5:04:45 PM  
I mean, the people murdered weren't "witches" even in the worst stereotypical way you could think of. They were just average people that got farked over by a corrupt system for the sole purpose of gaining more wealth at others expen.... Oh dear... Welp, as they say. History repeats itself.
 
2021-10-18 5:05:50 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-18 5:05:55 PM  
In Good Omens, the witch had her vengeance:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-18 5:07:58 PM  
Best looking witch: Wicked Witch of the East, from Oz the Great and Powerful:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-18 5:09:08 PM  
More Weight!!!
 
2021-10-18 5:13:10 PM  
Well hopefully them puritin farks that killed those innocent people are getting pineapples shoved up their asses for eternity, if you believe in that kinda thing.
 
2021-10-18 5:16:05 PM  

Weaver95: I'll check this thread later. I'm sure it'll be awesome to read up on all the bigoted responses and hate pagans for existing.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-18 5:16:26 PM  
I've been to all the witch trial "museums" (using that term loosely) in Salem. They didn't teach me anything I didn't already know and several had wild inaccuracies. Equating the witches (if there were any) in Salem to wiccans (as a couple of the "museums" did) is like comparing 1800s pirate ships to today's kids pirate Lego sets.
 
2021-10-18 5:17:37 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

Hi guys, what's going on here? My ears are burning!
 
2021-10-18 5:22:53 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

darkshadowseveryday.files.wordpress.comView Full Size


Would like a word
 
2021-10-18 5:25:18 PM  

aleister_greynight: Well if it weighs the same as a duck...


Build a bridge out of 'em!
 
2021-10-18 5:31:31 PM  
My ancestors were smart enough to get out of the area before this all happened. One would have been a target since she dared to defy the rules and actually bought land in her own name.
 
2021-10-18 5:56:47 PM  
Most "witches", either at the Salem Trials or in Europe during the heretic persecutions, were not witches or pagans. There may have been people practicing old religions at the time, but "witches" were not those people.

The Salem Trials are heavily documented, and the people accused were never suspected or accused of practicing "witchcraft", either healing magic, old or native religions, or any heretical practices.

They were accused of being in league with the Devil, of "afflicting" the girls who started the outcry or aiding and abetting the ones the girls accused, and initially the breakdown was between two or three families who had a long history of feuds and lawsuits against each other.

Salem had almost nothing to do with old religions, and everything to do with social tensions masked as religious hysteria.
 
2021-10-18 6:07:28 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-18 6:10:39 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Most "witches", either at the Salem Trials or in Europe during the heretic persecutions, were not witches or pagans. There may have been people practicing old religions at the time, but "witches" were not those people.

The Salem Trials are heavily documented, and the people accused were never suspected or accused of practicing "witchcraft", either healing magic, old or native religions, or any heretical practices.

They were accused of being in league with the Devil, of "afflicting" the girls who started the outcry or aiding and abetting the ones the girls accused, and initially the breakdown was between two or three families who had a long history of feuds and lawsuits against each other.

Salem had almost nothing to do with old religions, and everything to do with social tensions masked as religious hysteria.


I was surprised to learn that it all happened during one year....1692.
 
2021-10-18 7:23:00 PM  
At least one of the judges, 20 years later, wrote that he was ashamed of his participation.

Let's also note that James had his Bible translate "suffer not a poisoner of wells to live" to "suffer not a witch to live".

And yes, some of my best friends are/have been Witches. I'm just a generic Pagan.
 
2021-10-18 7:30:01 PM  

whitroth: At least one of the judges, 20 years later, wrote that he was ashamed of his participation.

Let's also note that James had his Bible translate "suffer not a poisoner of wells to live" to "suffer not a witch to live".

And yes, some of my best friends are/have been Witches. I'm just a generic Pagan.


Another fun fact: Most of what people think of as the "witch persecutions" in Europe were actually heretic persecutions. The various Inquisitions were not hunting for witches per se, they were rooting out heretics; and for a while there was some question as to whether a "witch" who accepted the doctrines of the Church in order to pervert them was a heretic under Church law. (Eventually the answer was Yes, but it wasn't cut&dried)

The "witch" hunts ran from around the reign of James I through the early 1700s, and were only a small part of the larger heretic persecutions that began as early as 1100 and didn't really stop until the 1800s. It might seem like a distinction without a difference; but the autos da fe were mostly not "witches" (although witchcraft was always a handy additional charge) but heretics. Heresy covered everything from being a true pagan to being an adherent of Hus or Luther.
 
2021-10-18 7:30:09 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Most "witches", either at the Salem Trials or in Europe during the heretic persecutions, were not witches or pagans. There may have been people practicing old religions at the time, but "witches" were not those people.

The Salem Trials are heavily documented, and the people accused were never suspected or accused of practicing "witchcraft", either healing magic, old or native religions, or any heretical practices.

They were accused of being in league with the Devil, of "afflicting" the girls who started the outcry or aiding and abetting the ones the girls accused, and initially the breakdown was between two or three families who had a long history of feuds and lawsuits against each other.

Salem had almost nothing to do with old religions, and everything to do with social tensions masked as religious hysteria.


I've heard some speculation that the original accusers--a group of teen girls--were hallucinating from eating bread that had a specific mold, too. Unconscious bias can often present in psychosis; probably if the mold theory is true they were mirroring what their parents taught them.
 
2021-10-18 8:06:49 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Most "witches", either at the Salem Trials or in Europe during the heretic persecutions, were not witches or pagans. There may have been people practicing old religions at the time, but "witches" were not those people.

The Salem Trials are heavily documented, and the people accused were never suspected or accused of practicing "witchcraft", either healing magic, old or native religions, or any heretical practices.

They were accused of being in league with the Devil, of "afflicting" the girls who started the outcry or aiding and abetting the ones the girls accused, and initially the breakdown was between two or three families who had a long history of feuds and lawsuits against each other.

Salem had almost nothing to do with old religions, and everything to do with social tensions masked as religious hysteria.


Just like today's antivaxers and TFG supporters...
 
2021-10-18 8:08:05 PM  

Weaver95: Remember that wicca is a religion based on duality - male and female, in balance. That means male witches are totally a thing that exists kids.
Something to keep in mind before y'all start trashing my religion.


bestanimations.comView Full Size


/wiccawicca
 
2021-10-18 9:00:58 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Another fun fact: Most of what people think of as the "witch persecutions" in Europe were actually heretic persecutions. The various Inquisitions were not hunting for witches per se, they were rooting out heretics; and for a while there was some question as to whether a "witch" who accepted the doctrines of the Church in order to pervert them was a heretic under Church law. (Eventually the answer was Yes, but it wasn't cut&dried)

The "witch" hunts ran from around the reign of James I through the early 1700s, and were only a small part of the larger heretic persecutions that began as early as 1100 and didn't really stop until the 1800s. It might seem like a distinction without a difference; but the autos da fe were mostly not "witches" (although witchcraft was always a handy additional charge) but heretics. Heresy covered everything from being a true pagan to being an adherent of Hus or Luther.


That's what they convicted Joan of Ark for. And even at the time it was widely understood that her trial and conviction were entirely politically motivated.
 
2021-10-18 9:01:54 PM  

Weaver95: I'll check this thread later. I'm sure it'll be awesome to read up on all the bigoted responses and hate pagans for existing.


So y'all did convert. Or at least became fans of the whole "jumping up on the cross" deal.
 
2021-10-18 9:25:59 PM  

Private_Citizen: Best looking witch: Wicked Witch of the East, from Oz the Great and Powerful:
[Fark user image image 850x1250]


Counterpoint:

static0.srcdn.comView Full Size
 
2021-10-18 9:26:46 PM  

It'sMorphin'Time: Gyrfalcon: Most "witches", either at the Salem Trials or in Europe during the heretic persecutions, were not witches or pagans. There may have been people practicing old religions at the time, but "witches" were not those people.

The Salem Trials are heavily documented, and the people accused were never suspected or accused of practicing "witchcraft", either healing magic, old or native religions, or any heretical practices.

They were accused of being in league with the Devil, of "afflicting" the girls who started the outcry or aiding and abetting the ones the girls accused, and initially the breakdown was between two or three families who had a long history of feuds and lawsuits against each other.

Salem had almost nothing to do with old religions, and everything to do with social tensions masked as religious hysteria.

I've heard some speculation that the original accusers--a group of teen girls--were hallucinating from eating bread that had a specific mold, too. Unconscious bias can often present in psychosis; probably if the mold theory is true they were mirroring what their parents taught them.


It used to be thought that; but ergotism is very unlikely. In the first place, ergotism wasn't common in New England, and in the second place, the disease it causes, St. Anthony's Fire, is both dramatic and unmistakable, usually resulting in the limbs turning gangrenous and falling off. Mass hysteria can be explained without needing moldy rye bread. The girls were playing with the 17th century equivalent of a Ouija board, which was definitely not allowed in their hyperreligious little village, they had very little emotional outlet beyond church, and just like the kids in the McMartin Preschool case, they were probably given lots of cues about what the "right" answers were supposed to be.

One of the original girls' father's was the town pastor, and it's easy to imagine how the first "outcry" went: Girl has a nightmare from her games in the kitchen with Tituba and the other girls; worried parents run upstairs; in that religiously-oriented society nightmares were visions from the devil, so worried father says "What ails you, child? What devil provokes you? Is it that wretched old hag Goody Proctor?"

Girl sees an easy way to avoid being blamed for doing forbidden things and says "Oh yes, she taunted me in my dreams!" and then things just spiraled out of control. Tituba was a slave, and she could be made to say anything her master ordered her to say ("Was it Goody Proctor who led you to the devil? Tell me or you will be whipped!") and like in other mass hysterias, all the other girls just followed along.
 
2021-10-18 9:28:53 PM  
 
2021-10-18 9:29:48 PM  

Weaver95: Remember that wicca is a religion based on duality - male and female, in balance. That means male witches are totally a thing that exists kids.
Something to keep in mind before y'all start trashing my religion.


I know! Uncle Arthur was such a cut up.
 
2021-10-18 9:35:48 PM  

Private_Citizen: Best looking witch: Wicked Witch of the East, from Oz the Great and Powerful:
[Fark user image 850x1250]


There have been a few.

monsterpictures.com.auView Full Size
 
2021-10-18 9:46:49 PM  
The definition of a witch is my soul sucking exwife!
 
2021-10-18 10:16:22 PM  
Radiohead - Burn The Witch
Youtube yI2oS2hoL0k
 
2021-10-18 11:11:03 PM  

Gyrfalcon: whitroth: At least one of the judges, 20 years later, wrote that he was ashamed of his participation.

Let's also note that James had his Bible translate "suffer not a poisoner of wells to live" to "suffer not a witch to live".

And yes, some of my best friends are/have been Witches. I'm just a generic Pagan.

Another fun fact: Most of what people think of as the "witch persecutions" in Europe were actually heretic persecutions. The various Inquisitions were not hunting for witches per se, they were rooting out heretics; and for a while there was some question as to whether a "witch" who accepted the doctrines of the Church in order to pervert them was a heretic under Church law. (Eventually the answer was Yes, but it wasn't cut&dried)

The "witch" hunts ran from around the reign of James I through the early 1700s, and were only a small part of the larger heretic persecutions that began as early as 1100 and didn't really stop until the 1800s. It might seem like a distinction without a difference; but the autos da fe were mostly not "witches" (although witchcraft was always a handy additional charge) but heretics. Heresy covered everything from being a true pagan to being an adherent of Hus or Luther.


Not to mention that the Catholic Church did not condemn witchcraft for it's first 1200 years or so. It was considered to be harmless superstition up until then.
 
2021-10-18 11:21:12 PM  

Private_Citizen: Best looking witch: Wicked Witch of the East, from Oz the Great and Powerful:
[Fark user image image 850x1250]


Oh hell no!

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-18 11:22:22 PM  

akallen404: Gyrfalcon: Another fun fact: Most of what people think of as the "witch persecutions" in Europe were actually heretic persecutions. The various Inquisitions were not hunting for witches per se, they were rooting out heretics; and for a while there was some question as to whether a "witch" who accepted the doctrines of the Church in order to pervert them was a heretic under Church law. (Eventually the answer was Yes, but it wasn't cut&dried)

The "witch" hunts ran from around the reign of James I through the early 1700s, and were only a small part of the larger heretic persecutions that began as early as 1100 and didn't really stop until the 1800s. It might seem like a distinction without a difference; but the autos da fe were mostly not "witches" (although witchcraft was always a handy additional charge) but heretics. Heresy covered everything from being a true pagan to being an adherent of Hus or Luther.

That's what they convicted Joan of Ark for. And even at the time it was widely understood that her trial and conviction were entirely politically motivated.


Noah's Wife! Excellent!
 
2021-10-19 9:47:47 AM  
I always got a kick out of the "tests" for a witch.  First, we'll torture you in order to admit you're a witch, so that we can then kill you.  Oh, you won't admit it?  So, we'll torture you some more.  Might even just kill you with the torture.  Then, you survive all that and still won't admit it?  So, we'll give you a "test."  Tie her to a weight and throw her in the lake.  If she lives, she's a witch, and we'll burn her.  If she dies, well, we're sorry.  We messed up.  On to the next one!
Just curious, have there ever been ANY people who went through these witch trials and were acquitted?
 
2021-10-19 11:24:58 AM  

whitroth: Let's also note that James had his Bible translate "suffer not a poisoner of wells to live" to "suffer not a witch to live".


So we should be putting fracking company executives to death.
 
2021-10-19 11:42:51 AM  

Private_Citizen: In Good Omens, the witch had her vengeance:
[Fark user image 620x413]


"Thou art tardy."
 
2021-10-19 12:41:54 PM  

Weaver95: Remember that wicca is a religion based on duality - male and female, in balance. That means male witches are totally a thing that exists kids.
Something to keep in mind before y'all start trashing my religion.


Your religion was defined in its modern context by Gerald Gardner in 1954. It doesn't make it any less viable, you just have to use the rules applied at the time.   The Salem witches were not defined that way in 1693. The culture of 17th century Massachusetts had a set definition of what a witch was and how it could be determined so you need to use that instead of the 2021 version.

The evil hags of Salem, Shakespeare and Greek mythology are not your modern Wicca anymore than the Biblical Jewish golem has anything to do with the ones in Terry Pratchett's books.  They share a common ancestry but their evolving  and end products are very different.

In the US alone, there are 58 officially different recognized Baptist denominations.  Meanwhile, all 4 Quaker denominations reject baptism with water for baptism of the Holy Spirit. All of them track their ancestry back to the same  group of 13 guys hanging out in the Holy Land.

True faith grows and changes as the world changes to give new perspectives. In the Catholic church, performing the sacrament in any other language but Latin was punishable by excommunication. Then Vatican II came along and got rid of that.   There have been times in the history of the Catholic church where both homosexuality and marriage were allowed. Marriage was one part of the schism between the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic church as their priests have spouses up to today.

Henry VIII banned the Catholic church. His daughter, Bloody Mary, burned 280 Anglicans to death for heresy.  Her successor, Queen Elizabeth I, killed 750 Catholics as part of her consolidation of power at the beginning of her reign.  You can't apply the rules for today and have it work over all three of their reigns.
 
2021-10-19 12:50:13 PM  

Gyrfalcon: It used to be thought that; but ergotism is very unlikely. In the first place, ergotism wasn't common in New England, and in the second place, the disease it causes, St. Anthony's Fire, is both dramatic and unmistakable, usually resulting in the limbs turning gangrenous and falling off. Mass hysteria can be explained without needing moldy rye bread. The girls were playing with the 17th century equivalent of a Ouija board, which was definitely not allowed in their hyperreligious little village, they had very little emotional outlet beyond church, and just like the kids in the McMartin Preschool case, they were probably given lots of cues about what the "right" answers were supposed to be.

One of the original girls' father's was the town pastor, and it's easy to imagine how the first "outcry" went: Girl has a nightmare from her games in the kitchen with Tituba and the other girls; worried parents run upstairs; in that religiously-oriented society nightmares were visions from the devil, so worried father says "What ails you, child? What devil provokes you? Is it that wretched old hag Goody Proctor?"

Girl sees an easy way to avoid being blamed for doing forbidden things and says "Oh yes, she taunted me in my dreams!" and then things just spiraled out of control. Tituba was a slave, and she could be made to say anything her master ordered her to say ("Was it Goody Proctor who led you to the devil? Tell me or you will be whipped!") and like in other mass hysterias, all the other girls just followed along.


Fair enough.
 
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