Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Eudaimonia)   Americans are getting ripped off and they don't even know it   (eand.co) divider line
    More: Murica, good reason, Viggo Mortensen, States, shudder, year, life  
•       •       •

9551 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 28 Sep 2021 at 8:30 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



294 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-09-28 2:20:52 AM  
In other words...
i.redd.itView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 2:53:03 AM  
Nah
people overpay for a ton of shiat because they think bigger is better when they didn't even need the thing in the first place.
They have nothing inside their heads so they look to material goods for satisfaction.

//man that would have been an embarrassing typo
 
2021-09-28 4:07:15 AM  
"Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?
 
2021-09-28 7:33:49 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


Texas.
 
2021-09-28 7:41:26 AM  
Speak for yourself, I've known it for a while.
 
2021-09-28 7:47:07 AM  
The Y axis on that graph reads like a line out of a TMBG song.
 
2021-09-28 7:51:47 AM  

Merltech: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things can easily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

Texas.


Texas :: electricity
Maine :: heating
 
2021-09-28 8:04:42 AM  
Most Americans:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 8:25:25 AM  

Tr0mBoNe: Most Americans:
[Fark user image image 850x637]


Easy to get by the taste when it's the only taste most of us have ever known
 
2021-09-28 8:33:31 AM  

Ambivalence: Speak for yourself, I've known it for a while.


Yep. In a lot of cases it's extremely obvious.
 
2021-09-28 8:34:56 AM  

Merltech: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

Texas.


I live in Texas (and specifically Austin, which has a pretty high cost of living compared to the rest of the state) and my total cost for those combined is around $200 per month.
 
2021-09-28 8:35:13 AM  
Did this guy get kicked out of Europe or something?
 
2021-09-28 8:37:18 AM  
This writersure does love his italics!
 
2021-09-28 8:39:27 AM  
Americans DO know that but for the most part they can't put a finger on it. A third of people are incorrigible racists and blame the blah folk. Another third recognize the malign influence of boundless wealth theft and hoarding. And the last third are too unplugged to have more than the vaguest opinion.
 
2021-09-28 8:39:41 AM  
I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.
 
2021-09-28 8:41:34 AM  
Just as designed.
 
2021-09-28 8:41:51 AM  
And a Royale with Cheese is called a Quarter Pounder with Cheese!!!
 
2021-09-28 8:42:08 AM  
It's too early to hear from some smug euro smelling their own farts.

"And what I get in America is way, way worse. At least half of the junk on TV is ads, I don't get the wonderful and illuminating and sparkling stuff that European TV makes on a regular basis, from good coverage of global affairs to politics to economics to ground-breaking shows and movies."

Wow, surprised they didn't claim that they don't even own a TV.
 
2021-09-28 8:42:13 AM  
Americans are suckers for patriotic propaganda, and therefore just assume that the USA is the greatest country in the world, despite being blatantly ripped off and lied to at nearly every turn.
 
2021-09-28 8:42:50 AM  
I've recently moved to the States - shudder - for a year or two.

I agree with the point. But when you start your entire argument off with this sentence, I dismiss you as a pompous douche.
 
2021-09-28 8:42:53 AM  
Americans bought into the American Dream and were sold a bill of sale. I like to enjoy nice things, but know my financial limitations.
 
2021-09-28 8:44:25 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


I was wondering that. I live in St. Louis.  Water is 60, electricity is 200, gas is 140 - that's budget billing numbers. And that's in a 4800 sq ft house with 7 people living in it. Of course, the author also stated the average income is 35,000, but then proceeded to use that number as an example of what families pay. Most families don't have a single income. There's a lot of cherry picking going on in that article. The solution is simple. If you don't like it here, get the fark out.
 
2021-09-28 8:44:51 AM  
the table is tilted, the game is rigged.
 
2021-09-28 8:46:13 AM  
Every Umar Haique article is the same article.  America is stupid.  Americans are stupid.  Everyone is stupid but Umar Haique.

Where to begin with how stupid you are:

How much do I pay for internet and TV in Europe? About thirty dollars, give or take. How much do I pay in America? $150.

OK, well, just use the antenna then.  You don't need to pay for TV at all.

That's five times as much. And what I get in America is way, way worse. At least half of the junk on TV is ads, I don't get the wonderful and illuminating and sparkling stuff that European TV makes on a regular basis, from good coverage of global affairs to politics to economics to ground-breaking shows and movies. I'm getting massively, massively ripped off. Why? Let me answer, with another example.

This is not remotely accurate.  There is plenty of trash on TV in Europe.  For example, every nation in Europe has their own Wheel of Fortune.

Let's take utility bills. They're astronomical in America compared to the rest of the rich world, and even much of the rest of the world period. Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things can easily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month.

I guess they easily could if I lived in a gargantuan, drafty house, but I've never paid more than $300 in a month for all of that and I live in a place with very hot summers and my house still has the original windows from 1964.

Every Umar Haique article sounds like it's written by an 18 year-old who went to Europe for a week and now knows how the rest of the world works and you've never been to Europe so you don't.
 
2021-09-28 8:46:57 AM  
I've recently moved to the States - shudder - for a year or two.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
 
2021-09-28 8:47:12 AM  
I just live under that assumption.

It's turning me into an asshole.
 
2021-09-28 8:47:31 AM  
I see all his points but when I get rich via the lottery, a rich remote relative or my instatube influencer channel takes off, it won't be as much of a problem.
 
2021-09-28 8:47:58 AM  
Unfortunately, for many/most 'muricans, The United States of America is the name of a planet, not a single country amongst many on a planet. Their view of the world ends at the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.
 
2021-09-28 8:49:04 AM  

TofuTheAlmighty: Americans DO know that but for the most part they can't put a finger on it. A third of people are incorrigible racists and blame the blah folk. Another third recognize the malign influence of boundless wealth theft and hoarding. And the last third are too unplugged to have more than the vaguest opinion.


You left out that the billionaires collectively spend billions a year to make sure that the 2/3rds doesn't join the other 1/3rd and fix anything. Because it would cost them collectively trillions if we did.
 
2021-09-28 8:50:45 AM  

Subtonic: It's too early to hear from some smug euro smelling their own farts.

"And what I get in America is way, way worse. At least half of the junk on TV is ads, I don't get the wonderful and illuminating and sparkling stuff that European TV makes on a regular basis, from good coverage of global affairs to politics to economics to ground-breaking shows and movies."

Wow, surprised they didn't claim that they don't even own a TV.


I didn't read anything inaccurate, but I know some Americans just love our nightly sound bite news and our Hot Bench Judge Judy Mathis Divorce Court shows with boner pill and skin problem commercials.
 
2021-09-28 8:51:29 AM  
Yes, that is the goal of any good capitalist rip people off while making then think othwrwise.
 
2021-09-28 8:51:50 AM  

cretinbob: Nah
people overpay for a ton of shiat because they think bigger is better when they didn't even need the thing in the first place.
They have nothing inside their heads so they look to material goods for satisfaction.

//man that would have been an embarrassing typo


A lot of people would rather look well off than be well off.  This description fits the Trumps perfectly.  They give all the outwards appearances of being super rich but they've fought tooth and nail to keep the details of their financial lives hidden.  The public facts we do know, four bankruptcies and admissions of Russian financing, suggest a desperate situation indeed.  Is it any wonder so many people want to prop them up as icons?  If they can survive, maybe I have a chance.

One anecdote wrt this: I know a family who all voted for Trump.  They live in a shiatty apartment but the wife gets $50 manicures every other week while the husband keeps buying sports cars that are completely impractical for their family needs (two kids).  They always always always have new clothes every time I see them.  They have crap service industry jobs and have pulled every trick in the book to dodge creditors who keep on hounding them.  They've moved three times in the last five years.  Oh, and did I also mention that they are black?  Trump is their idol and if you ask me, it's because they see themselves in him.
 
2021-09-28 8:52:49 AM  
You can tell the author is European because he didn't mention what a massive money suck cars are, probably because he doesn't drive.

The missing couple hundred bucks in his "utilities" section are easily fulfilled by a car payment/gas/repairs/insurance.
 
2021-09-28 8:53:00 AM  

Hey Nurse!: There's a lot of cherry picking going on in that article.


Yes, some of the numbers are pretty skewed. It's not a well-vetted article, but the general point stands. Income tax in the US is relatively low, but we get very little in exchange for that. For those who haven't made it to well above average income & stability, it's a financial disaster.

Hey Nurse!: The solution is simple. If you don't like it here, get the fark out.


That's not simple at all. At least not if you don't have a ton of money. But the US is pretty comfortable in that case, too.
 
2021-09-28 8:53:09 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


I know, right? My water bill was $32 last month, gas for heating /cooking was $56, electricity was $90, internet was $70, and I live in metro Atlanta.
 
2021-09-28 8:53:41 AM  
The average American income is about $35K per year. That's about $2400 a month, if you're lucky, after taxes. What bills are we up to? $1200 for a crappy apartment. A few hundreds, let's call it two or three, for connectivity. And another $500 or so for basic utilities. That leaves you with about $400 for the month, or just $100 dollars a week.
That's American life. That's why Americans feel so poor. Because they are. American life is a gigantic rip-offf.
The average American - after subtracting basic bills of shelter and utilities - has just $100 to spend on food, clothing, kids, medicine, all the other necessities.


OK, but Americans don't pay household expenses with an "average income".  They pay it with the median household income, which is $63,688.
 
2021-09-28 8:55:44 AM  
I assumed this was a discussion about American military budgets.
 
2021-09-28 8:56:06 AM  

cretinbob: Nah
people overpay for a ton of shiat because they think bigger is better when they didn't even need the thing in the first place.
They have nothing inside their heads so they look to material goods for satisfaction.

//man that would have been an embarrassing typo


Yep.

Tfa has a point in there somewhere, but lying about utility and cable costs isn't it, presenting cable as a necessity ain't it either. And always be wary of any argument presenting means instead of medians and ignoring age groups in a discussion like this.
 
2021-09-28 8:56:08 AM  
Some of us know it. Trust me, some of us know.
 
2021-09-28 8:56:51 AM  
A lot of people in this thread sound like time share owners defending their purchase. "America is not just a fun time one week a year, it's also a valuable investment."
 
2021-09-28 8:57:05 AM  
We're consumers with a Government led by individuals who require massive donations to win election.

Of course we're taken advantage of by the mega-corporations.

Real question, why is this news?
 
2021-09-28 8:57:08 AM  

reyreyrey: Subtonic: It's too early to hear from some smug euro smelling their own farts.

"And what I get in America is way, way worse. At least half of the junk on TV is ads, I don't get the wonderful and illuminating and sparkling stuff that European TV makes on a regular basis, from good coverage of global affairs to politics to economics to ground-breaking shows and movies."

Wow, surprised they didn't claim that they don't even own a TV.

I didn't read anything inaccurate, but I know some Americans just love our nightly sound bite news and our Hot Bench Judge Judy Mathis Divorce Court shows with boner pill and skin problem commercials.


There are dullards everywhere. There is tons of garbage on euro TV. It's not a uniquely American problem. And bagging on our worst television (ignoring some of the truly great stuff out there) when there are so many other problems just smacks of douchebaggery. But I guess we're all tired of hearing about racism, guns, and healthcare and he needs those clicks.
 
2021-09-28 8:57:50 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


What is the 'heating' expense if not electricity or gas?
 
2021-09-28 8:58:06 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


Denial. It's a flyover state.
 
2021-09-28 8:58:36 AM  
FTA: But I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me start over. American life is the biggest ripoff in the world. Or at least one of the biggest, in the top five, certainly. Just...existing. It costs way, way more than it should. So much so that America cannot ever move forward as a society. So, trapped in a cycle, which economists call a "poverty trap," Americans now stay poor.

Fark user imageView Full Size


/I would visit a doctor about my hearing problem, but I obviously can't afford it.  THE PRICE OF FREEDOM.
 
2021-09-28 8:59:49 AM  

Troy Aikman's Giant Thumbs: A lot of people in this thread sound like time share owners defending their purchase. "America is not just a fun time one week a year, it's also a valuable investment."


Hey, I got this complementary toaster just for listening to the pitch meeting. Suck it, euros.
 
2021-09-28 9:00:21 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


Illinois?
 
2021-09-28 9:00:40 AM  
As long as the untouchable billionaires are the ones making the rules, the number one rule will always be to not let the peasants get ahead. Always easier when you can push artificial divides and keep the peasants at each others' throats as well.
 
2021-09-28 9:01:29 AM  
Thanks for telling me, jerk-ass subby.

/ignorance is bliss
 
2021-09-28 9:01:38 AM  
Without rejecting his argument, I'd still like to see more specific data comparing US and European costs. I mean, I doubt utility costs and tax rates across Europe are the same for one thing, and I'd like to see more breakdown of the costs of other goods, bearing in mind sales tax/VAT in the EU zone is 20% or more.
 
2021-09-28 9:02:57 AM  
Simply not having the correct price on a label in a shop annoys me the most. Paying sales tax at point of sale is infuriating because what I just picked up is suddenly x% more expensive.

Purely designed to make sure people think they're getting something cheaper than it actually is.
 
2021-09-28 9:03:00 AM  

WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.


"Arbeit Macht Frei" is quite obviously far from being an American-only sentiment.  The most memorable and pitiful character in Englishman George Orwell's Animal Farm is Boxer the horse whose mantra and life philosophy was "I will work harder."  And then there's The Protestant Work Ethic espoused by Europeans like Martin Luther and Calvinists.  As with many things, America didn't invent this (although we think we did), we just scaled it up due to our nation's unusually large size and media domination.
 
2021-09-28 9:03:15 AM  
As others have pointed out, even while the conclusion of that article may have some validity, the facts and reasoning are crap.

So Wall St makes huge amounts out of extending credit that people can't repay?   How does that work exactly?
 
2021-09-28 9:03:57 AM  
He writes all this as if we don't know we're getting screwed. Of course we know. We just can't do diddly-fark about it.
 
2021-09-28 9:04:16 AM  
How much does it cost to just...have a place to live? Theaverage American rental is about $1200.That's for an apartment. Again, that's a particularly high figure. It doesn't cost that much to rent in Europe. In France, the the average house rental costs less than that - it's about 800 euros, or maybe $1000 dollars.
It's true that rents are high in cities like Paris and London, sure - but we're talking about averages across society.


Well, 5 seconds of googling shows me that the median rental price in the UK is on par with the US.  So is Germany.  France is only 16% cheaper by your own math.  Keep in mind, much of France outside of Paris, Toulouse, Lyon, and Marseille, is not growing.  Those cities themselves are only growing at 1% in population a year.  Several large American cities (Houston, Atlanta, DC) grow at 2-3% a year.  France grew 0.1% in population in 2019.  The US grew at 0.5%.  Italy shrunk by 0.2%.  That is where you get your difference in real estate prices.  The US costs more because living in the US is in more demand.  It just is.  The number are telling you that.  I won't deny that there are hundreds of problems that need to be fixed and thousands of things that could be improved, but this thread Umar is pulling is not it.
 
2021-09-28 9:04:21 AM  

Avigdore: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

What is the 'heating' expense if not electricity or gas?


Mine is fuel oil, and as the cost of oil has more than tripled since I bought my house (in 2000), yes, it can be $800 for a delivery, and it's about a delivery a month over the winter.

(Yes, I need better insulation as it's a 90 year old house, but that's going to require tearing out plaster walls, as no one who does blown in insulation is willing to work from the outside, and just take the top layer of siding off)
 
2021-09-28 9:05:38 AM  
We DO know.  Or at least many of us do.  Usually the ones not shouting USA!  USA!
 
2021-09-28 9:10:15 AM  
I just remembered a Planet Money podcast sometime ago about these interesting imbalances in the German power market that make electricity in Germany very expensive.  So there's this:  https://www.statista.com/stati​stics/26​3492/electricity-prices-in-selected-co​untries/

Electricity in Germany is 147% more expensive than in the US.
 
2021-09-28 9:11:15 AM  

ssaoi: I've recently moved to the States - shudder - for a year or two.

I agree with the point. But when you start your entire argument off with this sentence, I dismiss you as a pompous douche.


Between that and the "European tv is much better" the author started off intending to make everyone dislike him more than the real issues he wanted to comment on.
 
2021-09-28 9:12:50 AM  
Alright... the premise is good, but he lost me around the part about utilities. WTF was that?
 
2021-09-28 9:14:16 AM  
Neat. Call me in 20 years when you're settled in, and let me know how awful it is.

Meanwhile, my 22 year old niece moved to Berlin a few months ago (from Indiana) and took a crappy job to make ends meet. Guess what? She, too, is having a hard time. Everything is crazy expensive. And she says that if she listens to music or talks on the phone above a whisper after 8PM, the local police come and order her to be silent. I have no idea how much of that is true, but I do know that young idealists, who lack life experience, tend to be pissed off about everything, wherever they may be. Such is life.

So, anyway, Mr. Pissed-off foreigner talking about "America the shiathole:" there's a whole world you can go be pissed-off about. Wander around a bit. Take that righteous indignation to a few other places. Europe is not a model of perfection. If it was, why would you leave?

You want cheap? Go to Mexico. Real cheap. Except for the bribes, protection money, your car getting stolen, etc. Like everything orderly and functional? Japan is awesome! You're not allowed to move there, and if you thought America was expensive, good lord, you have no clue. So many other affordable places in the planet. Of course there won't be great internet. Or economic opportunities (at all), or medicine, or protection from roving gangs/warlords/utterly corrupt officials.

The world is big and chock full of problems. Your Utopian destination doesn't exist. If you find it, go there. But until then, you're going to have to slog your way through, like everybody else on the planet who finds a sense of stability. It may be easier going in some places, but you usually trade something, in return.
 
2021-09-28 9:15:45 AM  
I'm glad that I am above average. $35k/year? Does that average include teenagers working fast food joints in high school? Those kids probably aren't paying utilities.
 
2021-09-28 9:17:30 AM  

King Keepo: Simply not having the correct price on a label in a shop annoys me the most. Paying sales tax at point of sale is infuriating because what I just picked up is suddenly x% more expensive.

Purely designed to make sure people think they're getting something cheaper than it actually is.


To be fair, I know that at least in some high-VAT countries, it's illegal for posted prices to reveal how much of that is tax. It makes consumers less agitated about those significant costs.

In both cases, it's not that complicated to figure yourself, or at least estimate. But each does have a persistent nudge on perception.
 
2021-09-28 9:17:38 AM  
img.nbc.comView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 9:22:20 AM  
I was in until "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things can easily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."  Who pays that much/month on utilities?  That seems astronomical, and intentionally misleading...
 
2021-09-28 9:26:43 AM  

Elandriel: This writersure does love his italics!


he seems..a bit STRIDENT...
but wait for it:
just like an infomercialthis went ON TOO LONG, with too much DRAMA!
BUT YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT
how could you know?
it's HARD to hear SOMEONE WHO IS SHOUTING, even whenwhat they say
is CORRECT

the style undermines the message- just sayin
 
2021-09-28 9:28:20 AM  

WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.


this so much
 
2021-09-28 9:30:01 AM  
It's called serfdom. Very old concept. Still works! Just have to hide it behind a few layers.
 
2021-09-28 9:32:27 AM  

Rapmaster2000: How much do I pay for internet and TV in Europe? About thirty dollars, give or take. How much do I pay in America? $150.

OK, well, just use the antenna then.  You don't need to pay for TV at all.


Mmm. He's not wrong, though.  I pay $80/mo for internet only. I have no choice in the matter, there's no competition. I can't even get DSL. And it's way worse than any service I've gotten in the Czech Republic, Belgium, Spain or Turkey.

I can get TWC/Spectrum down to $40/mo if I quit being a customer for a month and come back at the promotional rate. Note that they still make a pretty decent amount of money at $40/mo, but they charge their regular customers double because f*ck you, that's why. Unfortunately I can't do that any more since the wife works from home. So hooray, every month I get reminded that I'm getting screwed royally.

As for antenna? Your results may vary widely, so good luck:
https://www.fcc.gov/media/engineering​/​dtvmaps
 
2021-09-28 9:32:53 AM  

harleyquinnical: Tr0mBoNe: Most Americans:
[Fark user image image 850x637]

Easy to get by the taste when it's the only taste most of us have ever known


This is my argument about American cheese.

To me it tastes like plastic, I grew up eating all sorts of processed cheese in plastic sheet form, in a brick, and from a jar.

At 15 I decided to stop eating processed cheese but it's all over the place. I managed to go about 6 months before

I was in a situation where it was offered to me on a sandwich, so I politely ate the food but the American cheese tasted strongly of plastic and was no longer enjoyable.

Give your tastebuds and the rest of your body a break from processed cheese and you will taste the difference.

Thank me next year!! Good luck it is worth escaping the fast food cycle of self loathing and unsatisfying meals.
 
2021-09-28 9:33:20 AM  

Tarl3k: I was in until "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things can easily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."  Who pays that much/month on utilities?  That seems astronomical, and intentionally misleading...


I have a 5 bedroom house and 5 daughters who live with me.  Because of our rural location, I pay a great deal for water.  We keep our house 68 degrees in the summer.  My utility bills, all in, might hit $450 including trash service.  As I was in the military, I've lived in many places in the country - I cannot fathom anybody in a normal home who pays $1000 for those items.  There's a great deal of cherry-picked data here.
 
2021-09-28 9:33:47 AM  
I used to live in a big, drafty, old house in Minnesota, there was a time when natural gas went through the roof and the gas bill alone was almost $1000 for a month. Including the other utilities it was about $1300 for a couple of months during a particularly cold winter, this was close to 15 years ago.
 
2021-09-28 9:34:16 AM  

Tarl3k: I was in until "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things can easily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."  Who pays that much/month on utilities?  That seems astronomical, and intentionally misleading...


As some above have said, depending on where you are, and size of house, some I'm sure are paying that.

I have an almost 2,000 sq. ft above ground house (with 1,000+ sq ft basement), and utilities total avg about $320-350/mo (gas/electric/water/sewer/trash pickup)... but I'm in still one of the lower COL metros in the country, so, I'd guess others in similar situations almost anywhere else are likely close to $500/mo, or going up towards that $1,000.
 
2021-09-28 9:36:00 AM  

TheDreadChefRoberts: harleyquinnical: Tr0mBoNe: Most Americans:
[Fark user image image 850x637]

Easy to get by the taste when it's the only taste most of us have ever known

This is my argument about American cheese.

To me it tastes like plastic, I grew up eating all sorts of processed cheese in plastic sheet form, in a brick, and from a jar.

At 15 I decided to stop eating processed cheese but it's all over the place. I managed to go about 6 months before

I was in a situation where it was offered to me on a sandwich, so I politely ate the food but the American cheese tasted strongly of plastic and was no longer enjoyable.

Give your tastebuds and the rest of your body a break from processed cheese and you will taste the difference.

Thank me next year!! Good luck it is worth escaping the fast food cycle of self loathing and unsatisfying meals.


You should make a grilled plastic sandwich and see how much a Kraft single actually tastes like plastic.

I bet you'll find plastic tastes nothing like processed cheese product at all.
 
2021-09-28 9:36:48 AM  
I'm seeing a lot of "If you don't like it, leave" responses here, and a lot of comments about what a douche the author is, and not much refuting his actual point.

I'm currently paying $240 a month for standard cable & 1200 MBPS internet, and trying to get it down to something more affordable while still maintaining useful service levels is a nightmare. The whole Comcast system is a mess of "special deals" and "limited offers" and "you can't get THIS if you have THAT, but we can cancel THOSE and save you $7 per month" until your head is spinning with all the bullsh*t. I would absolutely welcome some cheap, government-run version of cable service.

American healthcare is the same, an intentionally byzantine labyrinth of baffling options designed to be so confusing that the consumer just throws up their hands and pays whatever. You pay your insurance, you pay your co-pay, you pay the bills that inexplicably show up 18 months later from a company you've never heard of... but at least it's not "socialism."

What most Americans don't seem to realize is that the rest of the world doesn't spend SO MUCH F*CKING TIME NEGOTIATING for every goddamn little thing in their lives. We're a nation of poor-to-middle-class people who've been conditioned to believe that we're "capitalists" who have the "freedom" of so many utterly similar options that it's exhausting just to get through the day without feeling like someone is ripping you off.

TL;DR: Every step of the way in America there's a middleman standing there with his hand out. We pay much more in exchange for much less than other developed countries, and stupid Americans who've never travelled farther than 50 miles from where they were born are absolutely convinced that this is the best system in the world.
 
2021-09-28 9:38:00 AM  

No Catchy Nickname: Without rejecting his argument, I'd still like to see more specific data comparing US and European costs. I mean, I doubt utility costs and tax rates across Europe are the same for one thing, and I'd like to see more breakdown of the costs of other goods, bearing in mind sales tax/VAT in the EU zone is 20% or more.


Costs for electricity, natural gas, and water are about the same. Localization within countries are far more important. A Kwh of electricity costs a whole bunch more in California than is does in Montana.

Home ownership rates are similar, but houses/flats in Europe are MUCH smaller than in the US.

TV is all over the map. There is free OTA TV in the US, but parts of Europe require a license to receive broadcast services. Generally pay-TV is cheaper in Europe, but there are a lot fewer channels.

Wireless communications and internet in general is quite a bit cheaper in Europe. They have the density to make wireless a lot cheaper and heaps of regulation for internet pricing.

Public college/university is cheaper, but private is not. My niece graduated from the University of St Andrews in Scotland - OMG that was expensive.

We all buy the same garbage from Asia. The Europeans actually pay a bit more for the same garbage even before VAT.

Europeans don't accumulate 'stuff' like Americans do. You know all those self-storage businesses in the US? Yeah, that isn't really a thing. Americans waste a lot more money buying new things and then pay money to store the old things that they don't use but don't want to get rid of.
 
2021-09-28 9:39:08 AM  

Persnickety: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

"Arbeit Macht Frei" is quite obviously far from being an American-only sentiment.  The most memorable and pitiful character in Englishman George Orwell's Animal Farm is Boxer the horse whose mantra and life philosophy was "I will work harder."  And then there's The Protestant Work Ethic espoused by Europeans like Martin Luther and Calvinists.  As with many things, America didn't invent this (although we think we did), we just scaled it up due to our nation's unusually large size and media domination.


Of course, but over the last few decades European societies have largely moved away from this while America has doubled and tripled down. The EU mandates 4 weeks of paid vacation. They also get 14 weeks of maternity leave and 10 days of paternity leave. That's for all countries in the EU. Can you imagine trying to do this here?
 
2021-09-28 9:40:29 AM  
Oh no, they understand and know they are getting ripped off, but they won't just dig their heels in, they will cement their feet to this hill and die on it rather than admit fault and correct their course.
 
2021-09-28 9:42:17 AM  
Keep in mind I made my last statement without so much as even reading the real article's headline let alone the article itself...
 
2021-09-28 9:43:41 AM  
Does ACA cover Stockholm Syndrome?
 
2021-09-28 9:44:14 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


I live in upstate NY and $500  is easily true.
 
2021-09-28 9:44:48 AM  
Yeah I don't believe it anymore, haven't since about 2006 so I just do my best to not participate in things that they are trying to sell me. One of the things I saw a few years ago that disgusted me was how this company wanted you to take out a $10k loan for a vacation and probably spend the next 8 paying it back.
 
2021-09-28 9:46:09 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


California
 
2021-09-28 9:46:20 AM  

WhackingDay: They also get 14 weeks of maternity leave and 10 days of paternity leave.


Is that a typo? Seems surprisingly low.

I got six weeks of paid paternity in New York State (and even that felt like I was abandoning my family when I had to go back to work).
 
2021-09-28 9:46:25 AM  

Barricaded Gunman: I'm seeing a lot of "If you don't like it, leave" responses here, and a lot of comments about what a douche the author is, and not much refuting his actual point.


You're either misrepresent the thread on purpose or seeing what you want to see.

Plenty of people have refuted the article.

You've chosen not to quote and debate any of them.
 
2021-09-28 9:46:50 AM  
i do hate when people write about "europe", like it was some monolithic block with no differences in systems across the country.

the UK is not Norway is not Germany is not Switzerland is not Poland.

Author should be more specific.

That being said, i live in germany, and i can agree with much of what he's saying:

i earned 170k in the US per Year in the bay area. 3k in housing, 2k in childcare (part time, no frills), 600$ in student debt, plus health care, which was not cheap. Then car, car insurance, gas, (330, 100, 120 per month-ish)

so i needed to take home 5k just to pay the bills. not saving for myself, my kids education, or investments.

contrast that with here:
rent is 1500
childcare 330 per month (bilingual, with ballet and piano, meals included)
health care out of my check only, no bills
my employer pays my car, car insurance, and gives me free gas card, i just contribute a token % of purchase price out of my salary (my mercedes here costs less than my used jetta cost in CA)
phones are cheaper, but utilities feel about the same.
oh and groceries are super cheap here, at least for subsistence stuff. you wanna go to whole foods equiv you can spend the same but if youre just needing milk eggs cheese pasta and beer (1$ a bottle) you're gtg here.

so not only do i have a higher percentage of my salary left over for me, i dont have to worry about my kids college or medical bills.

oh and 30 days vacation per year plus all sorts of public holidays.

so, unless you're like a few friends of mine who work at google or salesforce and are closer to 300k a year or up, i think you do get a better, less stressful life over here. Even tho people can be pricks. But at least noone shoots you and the cops dont kill you if you're black.

i guess i'm advocating that americans should learn a foreign language and leave for somewhere in western europe. There are plenty of jobs here, come get one.
 
2021-09-28 9:47:01 AM  

cocozilla: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

I live in upstate NY and $500  is easily true.


This year will be bonkers. Nat gas prices are exploding right now. If you thought last year was expensive, this year will be a wake up call. Food and energy going to the moon.
 
2021-09-28 9:47:49 AM  

swahnhennessy: Americans are suckers for patriotic propaganda, and therefore just assume that the USA is the greatest country in the world, despite being blatantly ripped off and lied to at nearly every turn.


I'd venture that is a fair statement for most of us but some of us did motor across the planet to check out how other places get along just the same. The only detail I consistently observed being better overseas versus the US was the nature of property rights.  Everything else looked to be about the same, including firearms though that perception is likely skewed due to the company I keep.  I can't speak for everyone in the USA, but for me, I am quite happy to call it home even with all the shenanigans going on at present. I also fully encourage anyone who finds themselves unhappy here in the states to take a chance on travelling the world. At best, you might find a new home that is perfect for you in every way. Likely, you will bring back some good ideas to leverage as a benefit to your current home. At worst, you will at least know why you're complaining so much.
 
2021-09-28 9:49:11 AM  

King Keepo: Simply not having the correct price on a label in a shop annoys me the most. Paying sales tax at point of sale is infuriating because what I just picked up is suddenly x% more expensive.

Purely designed to make sure people think they're getting something cheaper than it actually is.


It's designed to remind people that the state/ locality is taking money from them.  Hiding the expense in the price leads to people not realizing what they're paying towards taxes.
 
2021-09-28 9:49:38 AM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: WhackingDay: They also get 14 weeks of maternity leave and 10 days of paternity leave.

Is that a typo? Seems surprisingly low.

I got six weeks of paid paternity in New York State (and even that felt like I was abandoning my family when I had to go back to work).


I think that's the EU mandated amount. Employers can have their own rules. The company I worked for gives 4 weeks I think. But when I worked for our state government, we got squat.
 
2021-09-28 9:50:24 AM  

stray_capts: We keep our house 68 degrees in the summer.


Yikes.  We do 68 in winter and 78 in summer.  68 in the summer is too cold.  I can't see walking around my house in a sweatshirt in the summer.

It's September now so I probably won't use any AC for the rest of the year and I won't use heat until maybe late October.
 
2021-09-28 9:51:28 AM  
Nearly everything in that list is directly due to the government protectionism of the various industries.  And it isn't just a "republican-thing," as has been suggested.  Nothing get fixed by the Democrats, when they're in charge, either.
 
2021-09-28 9:52:22 AM  

Subtonic: It's too early to hear from some smug euro smelling their own farts.

"And what I get in America is way, way worse. At least half of the junk on TV is ads, I don't get the wonderful and illuminating and sparkling stuff that European TV makes on a regular basis, from good coverage of global affairs to politics to economics to ground-breaking shows and movies."

Wow, surprised they didn't claim that they don't even own a TV.


The times I have been in Europe (Germany, Poland, France, does Belarus count?) I thought the TV was horrible.  The shows were vapid and cheesy and most just tried to copy what America was doing.  They showed all the weird sports, strange music videos (a tough looking German guy singing a song called "Gangsta Rap" is one example) and lots of other just boring stuff. Maybe he's right about the news though but I didn't watch much of that.
 
2021-09-28 9:55:01 AM  

TheDreadChefRoberts: harleyquinnical: Tr0mBoNe: Most Americans:
[Fark user image image 850x637]

Easy to get by the taste when it's the only taste most of us have ever known

This is my argument about American cheese.

To me it tastes like plastic, I grew up eating all sorts of processed cheese in plastic sheet form, in a brick, and from a jar.

At 15 I decided to stop eating processed cheese but it's all over the place. I managed to go about 6 months before

I was in a situation where it was offered to me on a sandwich, so I politely ate the food but the American cheese tasted strongly of plastic and was no longer enjoyable.

Give your tastebuds and the rest of your body a break from processed cheese and you will taste the difference.

Thank me next year!! Good luck it is worth escaping the fast food cycle of self loathing and unsatisfying meals.


But American Cheese (Kraft Premium makes some). Avoid 'American Cheese Food' that's the processed stuff you're not wanting.
 
2021-09-28 9:55:41 AM  
FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'
 
2021-09-28 9:56:42 AM  

Lochaber_Axe: The times I have been in Europe (Germany, Poland, France, does Belarus count?) I thought the TV was horrible.  The shows were vapid and cheesy and most just tried to copy what America was doing.  They showed all the weird sports, strange music videos (a tough looking German guy singing a song called "Gangsta Rap" is one example) and lots of other just boring stuff. Maybe he's right about the news though but I didn't watch much of that.


would tend to agree about much of the TV content.

the main difference is, at least here in Germany and in France as well, the "PBS and NPR equivalents" are much bigger, better funded, and more visible. They also make fantastic documentaries and nature content about reefs and sharks and birds ...environmental stuff.

German TV has a lot of American style dreck but you can at least turn to reliable, solid govt funded programming that is designed to fosture cultural appreciation and factual information, and not just induce outrage at whatever partisan BS du jour is being thrown across Fox news.

they also subsidize a lot of artsy stuff... the extent of which can be surprising.
 
2021-09-28 9:57:52 AM  

GORDON: Nearly everything in that list is directly due to the government protectionism of the various industries.  And it isn't just a "republican-thing," as has been suggested.  Nothing get fixed by the Democrats, when they're in charge, either.


That's ludicrously untrue. Last time the Democrats were in charge they tried to fix healthcare.  The howling obstructionism from Republicans was deafening.

Get the hell out of here with your BSAB.
 
2021-09-28 10:00:30 AM  

Father_Jack: Lochaber_Axe: The times I have been in Europe (Germany, Poland, France, does Belarus count?) I thought the TV was horrible.  The shows were vapid and cheesy and most just tried to copy what America was doing.  They showed all the weird sports, strange music videos (a tough looking German guy singing a song called "Gangsta Rap" is one example) and lots of other just boring stuff. Maybe he's right about the news though but I didn't watch much of that.

would tend to agree about much of the TV content.

the main difference is, at least here in Germany and in France as well, the "PBS and NPR equivalents" are much bigger, better funded, and more visible. They also make fantastic documentaries and nature content about reefs and sharks and birds ...environmental stuff.

German TV has a lot of American style dreck but you can at least turn to reliable, solid govt funded programming that is designed to fosture cultural appreciation and factual information, and not just induce outrage at whatever partisan BS du jour is being thrown across Fox news.

they also subsidize a lot of artsy stuff... the extent of which can be surprising.


When I want to see the arts, I tune to the Arts and Entertainment channel.
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.comView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 10:01:31 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Merltech: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

Texas.

I live in Texas (and specifically Austin, which has a pretty high cost of living compared to the rest of the state) and my total cost for those combined is around $200 per month.


Dallas here. Probably about 300, but thats electricity, water, trash, and sewage. My house is crazy energy efficient though. My old place, just the electric could hit 300 easily in the height of summer.
 
2021-09-28 10:02:13 AM  

Rapmaster2000: The average American income is about $35K per year. That's about $2400 a month, if you're lucky, after taxes. What bills are we up to? $1200 for a crappy apartment. A few hundreds, let's call it two or three, for connectivity. And another $500 or so for basic utilities. That leaves you with about $400 for the month, or just $100 dollars a week.
That's American life. That's why Americans feel so poor. Because they are. American life is a gigantic rip-offf.
The average American - after subtracting basic bills of shelter and utilities - has just $100 to spend on food, clothing, kids, medicine, all the other necessities.

OK, but Americans don't pay household expenses with an "average income".  They pay it with the median household income, which is $63,688.


Being forced to live with other people in order to make ends meet is not ok. How many people are stuck in an abusive relationship because they can't afford $1400 for a one-bedroom apartment?
 
2021-09-28 10:04:29 AM  

WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.


Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.
 
2021-09-28 10:07:03 AM  

Nick Nostril: Unfortunately, for many/most 'muricans, The United States of America is the name of a planet, not a single country amongst many on a planet. Their view of the world ends at the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.


Or they get the sense that this douche is representative of the rest of the world and DECIDE that the Atlantic and Pacific are boundaries to maintain some sanity.
 
2021-09-28 10:07:34 AM  

Ambivalence: Speak for yourself, I've known it for a while.


Everyone knows it. And most of them like it 'cuz the alternative is soshulizm.
 
2021-09-28 10:08:16 AM  

Hey Nurse!: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

I was wondering that. I live in St. Louis.  Water is 60, electricity is 200, gas is 140 - that's budget billing numbers. And that's in a 4800 sq ft house with 7 people living in it. Of course, the author also stated the average income is 35,000, but then proceeded to use that number as an example of what families pay. Most families don't have a single income. There's a lot of cherry picking going on in that article. The solution is simple. If you don't like it here, get the fark out.


Despite the article writer being a douche, and using bad math, they have a point about utility monopolies.
 
2021-09-28 10:10:29 AM  

SUMMERSN0WS: Rapmaster2000: The average American income is about $35K per year. That's about $2400 a month, if you're lucky, after taxes. What bills are we up to? $1200 for a crappy apartment. A few hundreds, let's call it two or three, for connectivity. And another $500 or so for basic utilities. That leaves you with about $400 for the month, or just $100 dollars a week.
That's American life. That's why Americans feel so poor. Because they are. American life is a gigantic rip-offf.
The average American - after subtracting basic bills of shelter and utilities - has just $100 to spend on food, clothing, kids, medicine, all the other necessities.

OK, but Americans don't pay household expenses with an "average income".  They pay it with the median household income, which is $63,688.

Being forced to live with other people in order to make ends meet is not ok. How many people are stuck in an abusive relationship because they can't afford $1400 for a one-bedroom apartment?


I don't know.  How many households exist by choice?  More than half of American adults are married.

The point is that the author is using average (why average and not median?) individual income to pay for median household expenses.  It's misleading.  No economist is going to do that.  An economist wouldn't do that because there is nothing instructive that can be done with it.  You can't make policy decisions or comparisons with a faulty analysis.
 
2021-09-28 10:11:58 AM  
An attempt was made
 
2021-09-28 10:12:26 AM  

BeotchPudding: FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'


Because the U.S. is the greatest, best country God has ever given man on the face of the earth? Ok, Hannity.

It would be really awesome if the US swallowed some pride and learned from what other countries were doing well.
 
2021-09-28 10:15:04 AM  

Persnickety: cretinbob: Nah
people overpay for a ton of shiat because they think bigger is better when they didn't even need the thing in the first place.
They have nothing inside their heads so they look to material goods for satisfaction.

//man that would have been an embarrassing typo

A lot of people would rather look well off than be well off.  This description fits the Trumps perfectly.  They give all the outwards appearances of being super rich but they've fought tooth and nail to keep the details of their financial lives hidden.  The public facts we do know, four bankruptcies and admissions of Russian financing, suggest a desperate situation indeed.  Is it any wonder so many people want to prop them up as icons?  If they can survive, maybe I have a chance.

One anecdote wrt this: I know a family who all voted for Trump.  They live in a shiatty apartment but the wife gets $50 manicures every other week while the husband keeps buying sports cars that are completely impractical for their family needs (two kids).  They always always always have new clothes every time I see them.  They have crap service industry jobs and have pulled every trick in the book to dodge creditors who keep on hounding them.  They've moved three times in the last five years.  Oh, and did I also mention that they are black?  Trump is their idol and if you ask me, it's because they see themselves in him.


So they suddenly started living this way when Trump got elected?

That pretty damn bad.
 
2021-09-28 10:15:19 AM  

Unright: BeotchPudding: FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'

Because the U.S. is the greatest, best country God has ever given man on the face of the earth? Ok, Hannity.

It would be really awesome if the US swallowed some pride and learned from what other countries were doing well.


but why do you hate us though?
 
2021-09-28 10:17:47 AM  
I've read a lot of criticisms of America by non-Americans that are really silly -- like New York city dwellers can't grow their own food (because NYC is the place to live if you want to grow your own food).  But this one is totally spot on, from top to bottom, start to finish.  Should be required reading in all high schools (before the kids pile on a bunch of student debt) but it won't.  Young farkers  -- take note!  Spread this to all your friends.
 
2021-09-28 10:18:22 AM  
Father_Jack: i do hate when people write about "europe", like it was some monolithic block with no differences in systems across the country.

the UK is not Norway is not Germany is not Switzerland is not Poland.

Author should be more specific.

That being said, i live in germany, and i can agree with much of what he's saying:

i earned 170k in the US per Year in the bay area. 3k in housing, 2k in childcare (part time, no frills), 600$ in student debt, plus health care, which was not cheap. Then car, car insurance, gas, (330, 100, 120 per month-ish)

so i needed to take home 5k just to pay the bills. not saving for myself, my kids education, or investments.

contrast that with here:
rent is 1500
childcare 330 per month (bilingual, with ballet and piano, meals included)
health care out of my check only, no bills
my employer pays my car, car insurance, and gives me free gas card, i just contribute a token % of purchase price out of my salary (my mercedes here costs less than my used jetta cost in CA)
phones are cheaper, but utilities feel about the same.
oh and groceries are super cheap here, at least for subsistence stuff. you wanna go to whole foods equiv you can spend the same but if youre just needing milk eggs cheese pasta and beer (1$ a bottle) you're gtg here.

so not only do i have a higher percentage of my salary left over for me, i dont have to worry about my kids college or medical bills.

oh and 30 days vacation per year plus all sorts of public holidays.

so, unless you're like a few friends of mine who work at google or salesforce and are closer to 300k a year or up, i think you do get a better, less stressful life over here. Even tho people can be pricks. But at least noone shoots you and the cops dont kill you if you're black
.

The humble-brag is strong with this one.

i guess i'm advocating that americans should learn a foreign language and leave for somewhere in western europe. There are plenty of jobs here, come get one.

And the cherry on top. Just move, stupid!
 
2021-09-28 10:19:19 AM  

TwilightZone: I've read a lot of criticisms of America by non-Americans that are really silly -- like New York city dwellers can't grow their own food (because NYC is the place to live if you want to grow your own food).  But this one is totally spot on, from top to bottom, start to finish.  Should be required reading in all high schools (before the kids pile on a bunch of student debt) but it won't.  Young farkers  -- take note!  Spread this to all your friends.


Found the article writer's fark handle.
 
2021-09-28 10:20:00 AM  

Subtonic: And the cherry on top. Just move, stupid!


did.That's why i'm saying you should too.
 
2021-09-28 10:20:55 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Merltech: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

Texas.

I live in Texas (and specifically Austin, which has a pretty high cost of living compared to the rest of the state) and my total cost for those combined is around $200 per month.


I'm in Wisconsin and pay $150-$200 for gas and electric depending on the season, and $80 bimonthly for water.
 
2021-09-28 10:22:58 AM  
No, subby... really?

/looks at nick...
//I had no idea...
///we use three slashies?
 
2021-09-28 10:23:14 AM  

ltdanman44: the table is tilted, the game is rigged.


Just know finding that out...
 
2021-09-28 10:23:20 AM  

Unright: BeotchPudding: FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'

Because the U.S. is the greatest, best country God has ever given man on the face of the earth? Ok, Hannity.

It would be really awesome if the US swallowed some pride and learned from what other countries were doing well.


What Country spread Democracy around the world?
 
2021-09-28 10:24:09 AM  

ltdanman44: the table is tilted, the game is rigged.


Just now finding that out...


Also, corporate America:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 10:24:44 AM  

sid244: ltdanman44: the table is tilted, the game is rigged.

Just know now finding that out...

I'm an idiot

 
2021-09-28 10:26:04 AM  

BlazeTrailer: Nick Nostril: Unfortunately, for many/most 'muricans, The United States of America is the name of a planet, not a single country amongst many on a planet. Their view of the world ends at the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Or they get the sense that this douche is representative of the rest of the world and DECIDE that the Atlantic and Pacific are boundaries to maintain some sanity.


Indeed. The US is the only developed country without some sort of single payer healthcare system. We must be the ones doing it right.
 
2021-09-28 10:26:40 AM  

Subtonic: TwilightZone: I've read a lot of criticisms of America by non-Americans that are really silly -- like New York city dwellers can't grow their own food (because NYC is the place to live if you want to grow your own food).  But this one is totally spot on, from top to bottom, start to finish.  Should be required reading in all high schools (before the kids pile on a bunch of student debt) but it won't.  Young farkers  -- take note!  Spread this to all your friends.

Found the article writer's fark handle.


Nope.  I'm just another ripped-off American -- just old enough to realize it.
 
2021-09-28 10:27:38 AM  
He must be living in a shack with leaky pipes and no insulation if he's paying that much in utilities.

He's right about cable / internet, but there a counterpoint. Gasoline. That shiat is ridiculous in Europe.
 
2021-09-28 10:29:23 AM  

Father_Jack: Subtonic: And the cherry on top. Just move, stupid!

i did.That's why i'm saying you should too.


Next you'll ask why I don't just buy more money.
 
2021-09-28 10:30:24 AM  
average rent tucson
$700 room, $1,400 house (some deals out there)
electricity $75-$200/month
internet only $73
water $75 (city)
gas $20-$80

Mountains southern new mexico
electricity $80+
internet only $94
water $55+
gas- don't have it
 
2021-09-28 10:31:45 AM  

Nick Nostril: BlazeTrailer: Nick Nostril: Unfortunately, for many/most 'muricans, The United States of America is the name of a planet, not a single country amongst many on a planet. Their view of the world ends at the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Or they get the sense that this douche is representative of the rest of the world and DECIDE that the Atlantic and Pacific are boundaries to maintain some sanity.

Indeed. The US is the only developed country without some sort of single payer healthcare system. We must be the ones doing it right.


We're also the only country where hundreds of thousands of people can just walk across the border.

We simply cannot have social programs while the borders are basically open. It is unsustainable.
 
2021-09-28 10:32:56 AM  

Hey Nurse!: I was wondering that. I live in St. Louis.  Water is 60, electricity is 200, gas is 140 - that's budget billing numbers. And that's in a 4800 sq ft house with 7 people living in it. Of course, the author also stated the average income is 35,000, but then proceeded to use that number as an example of what families pay. Most families don't have a single income. There's a lot of cherry picking going on in that article. The solution is simple. If you don't like it here, get the fark out.


That's a common trick -- start out with average (mean) per-capita income, then pivot to "household" expenses.

The 2019 CPS ASEC real median earnings of men ($57,456) and women ($47,299) who worked full-time, year-round is considerably higher than the ACS median per capita  ($35,672).

That $35K number is the mean income computed for every man, woman, and child.
 
2021-09-28 10:38:18 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Merltech: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

Texas.

I live in Texas (and specifically Austin, which has a pretty high cost of living compared to the rest of the state) and my total cost for those combined is around $200 per month.


For me it is €90 for gwe, and I get money back each year.
 
2021-09-28 10:39:30 AM  

big pig peaches: We're also the only country where hundreds of thousands of people can just walk across the border.


Serious question: Are you a Fox News watcher?

Because there's no part of that sentence that's even remotely true but I know they've been pushing that narrative pretty hard.
 
2021-09-28 10:40:51 AM  

Subtonic: Father_Jack: Subtonic: And the cherry on top. Just move, stupid!

i did.That's why i'm saying you should too.

Next you'll ask why I don't just buy more money.


WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

and sorry for coming across like a humblebragging douche. its a hard line to walk online.

on the one hand, if i provide a lot of numbers and details, it sounds like i'm tooting my horn. but if i dont provide deets, it sounds like just talking points and not "real".

anyway hard balance to strike.

/sorry
//you should still move tho, america sucks
 
2021-09-28 10:43:26 AM  

Rapmaster2000: The average American income is about $35K per year. That's about $2400 a month, if you're lucky, after taxes. What bills are we up to? $1200 for a crappy apartment. A few hundreds, let's call it two or three, for connectivity. And another $500 or so for basic utilities. That leaves you with about $400 for the month, or just $100 dollars a week.
That's American life. That's why Americans feel so poor. Because they are. American life is a gigantic rip-offf.
The average American - after subtracting basic bills of shelter and utilities - has just $100 to spend on food, clothing, kids, medicine, all the other necessities.

OK, but Americans don't pay household expenses with an "average income".  They pay it with the median household income, which is $63,688.


While your point stands, you should compare the averages to averages, not averages to medians. Which will change all the numbers in the equation.
 
2021-09-28 10:44:16 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


I'm one person.  I unplug the vampire appliances.  I walk around in the dark despite having 100% LED bulbs.  I take 5 minute showers and wear jeans & PJs multiple days before laundering them in an efficient machine.  If it's yellow, I let it mellow, and the toilets are (much to my displeasure) low-flow, as is the showerhead.  My home is not-quite-century-old brick with 10-year-old triple-pane thermal insulating replacement windows.  I use draft stoppers, turn the thermostat low/high and use sweaters/fans, respectively.

I pay $150 a month electricity, $250 in the summer (with the AC so low I can barely tell the difference; turning it up is MUCH worse)

I spend about $400 a month in heating in the winter.  Unfortunately, in my state, that lasts from October 1 through April 30, at the very minimum (extra rough winters are even longer).

Water, sewer, trash & recycling comes to $100 a month, as does my homeowner's insurance.

Despite being an 1,100 square foot hole-in-the-wall with tiny rooms, I pay $300 a month in property taxes, $25 a month in school taxes, a local income tax on top of the state & federal one, and an "occupational privilege" tax of... honestly IDK what it's up to now because it goes up every year but it was creeping up on $100 a year last time I looked, just to have a job in the city in which I work.  My state's sales tax is one of the ones well above 5%, and they only exempt some clothing, food, & medicine.

I keep bare-bones internet at $55 a month (literally zero cheaper options; Comcast the only service in my zip code with > 1 mbps down), and pay-as-you-go phone service that keeps me tethered to wifi and cutting calls short or sending them to voicemail but keeps that bill under $25 a month instead of the $80 - $100 the market would like to collect from me.

A 2nd floor walk-up, 1 bedroom with no laundry, which doesn't even include trash, water, or electricity, is going for $1,100 a month in complexes near me.  To break $1k you have to get a 200 square foot studio, 7th-floor walk-up in gang territory downtown, full of junkies, bed bugs, mold and rats.

I eat mostly rice & beans, chicken when I can afford it, and drink water or bulk-brewed iced tea I make myself for about 50 cents a gallon.  Since the pandemic price spikes, I cannot stock my pantry for under $75 a week, just for me alone, even on this modest diet.  I'm up to giving up things like eggs, any bread other than el-cheapo Wal-Mart white bread, etc.  Sandwiches are about to go the way of the dodo because even bologna is too expensive.

I'm fortunate enough to fully own my home and a low-mileage, reliable (if old) car.  And I still cannot break $1,200 - $1,500 a month in expenses, while staying at home and reading books I already own or surfing the internet (i.e., $0 hobbies).

It's not bullshiat.  Especially if you have kids.
 
2021-09-28 10:45:49 AM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: big pig peaches: We're also the only country where hundreds of thousands of people can just walk across the border.

Serious question: Are you a Fox News watcher?

Because there's no part of that sentence that's even remotely true but I know they've been pushing that narrative pretty hard.


There aren't millions of illegal immigrants in the US.

Man, I was wrong about Biden.
 
2021-09-28 10:46:29 AM  

big pig peaches: Nick Nostril: BlazeTrailer: Nick Nostril: Unfortunately, for many/most 'muricans, The United States of America is the name of a planet, not a single country amongst many on a planet. Their view of the world ends at the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Or they get the sense that this douche is representative of the rest of the world and DECIDE that the Atlantic and Pacific are boundaries to maintain some sanity.

Indeed. The US is the only developed country without some sort of single payer healthcare system. We must be the ones doing it right.

We're also the only country where hundreds of thousands of people can just walk across the border.

We simply cannot have social programs while the borders are basically open. It is unsustainable.


we can't have a lot of nice things.  because we don't have the finacial rescources.  because they are hoarded by the billionaires without ever crossing the hands or eyes of the average American.  hoarding during a crisis like this pandemic, ought to be making us a lot angrier than it seems to.

Persnickety: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

"Arbeit Macht Frei" is quite obviously far from being an American-only sentiment.  The most memorable and pitiful character in Englishman George Orwell's Animal Farm is Boxer the horse whose mantra and life philosophy was "I will work harder."  And then there's The Protestant Work Ethic espoused by Europeans like Martin Luther and Calvinists.  As with many things, America didn't invent this (although we think we did), we just scaled it up due to our nation's unusually large size and media domination.


i reread Animal Farm every several years; Boxer makes me cry every time.
 
2021-09-28 10:48:16 AM  
I moved to Europe (The Netherlands) in 2016 from the DFW area, everything I am going to put here is based on that location. Here is what I can tell you:

-Groceries are 25-30% cheaper here. That includes beer and wine, basically anything you buy at the supermarket.

-Cars and gas are crazy expensive here, maybe the most expensive in Europe. If you can get by just using the amazing public transportation and/or bike lanes you can save tons of money. I lived here for 5 years without a car. Almost any job will reimburse you for your public transportation costs here as well.

-Insurance is cheap. My homeowner's insurance on a €400k house is like €40 a month. I have a €1,000,000 liability policy that literally covers almost any way I can fark up for €4 a month.

-Health insurance is absurdly cheap. Around €125 a month, €385 annual deductible. Covers everything, it's great. No medical bankruptcies here at all.

-Crime is low, gun violence is almost non-existent among non-criminals. The murder count in Amsterdam, a city of +850k people is less than my home town of Lafayette, LA which has around 120k people. Violent crime is rare.

-Income taxes are a little higher but you get a lot for them. The quality of life within 5 miles of my house is like what millionaires have in the US.

-The police don't kill nearly as many people here. Traffic stops aren't used as revenue generators for cities and towns. Getting arrested and put in jail for drug possession means you were really carrying a lot of drugs and not just a few pills or a little coke.

-Aside from mortgages and some cars, there is little debt here. Credit cards are almost entirely the pay off every month kind with low limits, mine is €2500. Speaking of mortgages, the rates are super low, mine is 2%.

-There are grocery stores, drug stores, etc. in every neighborhood. You never have to drive to a store if you live in a city or town. Because of the lack of big box stores there are also cool businesses like butcher shops, specialty delis, and other small businesses that were all eaten by Walmart in the US.

Life is not perfect here but it's very pleasant, far more enjoyable than anywhere I lived in the US at any time.
 
2021-09-28 10:49:39 AM  

big pig peaches: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: big pig peaches: We're also the only country where hundreds of thousands of people can just walk across the border.

Serious question: Are you a Fox News watcher?

Because there's no part of that sentence that's even remotely true but I know they've been pushing that narrative pretty hard.

There aren't millions of illegal immigrants in the US.

Man, I was wrong about Biden.



so maybe we should allow the millions of them who have been here since childhood have a path to citizenship since we've already invested in them, they've integrated, and are our neighbors and coworkers?
 
2021-09-28 10:50:23 AM  
And I forgot to mention, 20 days statutory paid vacation with most jobs giving more than that. People here regularly take 2-3 weeks off in a row. I wouldn't have dared to take that long off at any job I had in the US.
 
2021-09-28 10:50:38 AM  
I dislike the love it or leave it talking points about the U.S.

Americans are ignorant and selfish. This is true. The article is a bit meandering, but the general thesis is correct: We are too hoodwinked to acknowledge how over the barrel we really are. We've bought in and have dug our heels in to defend the indefensible. It's ingrained into us at a young age.
 
2021-09-28 10:51:58 AM  

Evildog: I moved to Europe (The Netherlands) in 2016 from the DFW area, everything I am going to put here is based on that location. Here is what I can tell you:

-Groceries are 25-30% cheaper here. That includes beer and wine, basically anything you buy at the supermarket.

-Cars and gas are crazy expensive here, maybe the most expensive in Europe. If you can get by just using the amazing public transportation and/or bike lanes you can save tons of money. I lived here for 5 years without a car. Almost any job will reimburse you for your public transportation costs here as well.

-Insurance is cheap. My homeowner's insurance on a €400k house is like €40 a month. I have a €1,000,000 liability policy that literally covers almost any way I can fark up for €4 a month.

-Health insurance is absurdly cheap. Around €125 a month, €385 annual deductible. Covers everything, it's great. No medical bankruptcies here at all.

-Crime is low, gun violence is almost non-existent among non-criminals. The murder count in Amsterdam, a city of +850k people is less than my home town of Lafayette, LA which has around 120k people. Violent crime is rare.

-Income taxes are a little higher but you get a lot for them. The quality of life within 5 miles of my house is like what millionaires have in the US.

-The police don't kill nearly as many people here. Traffic stops aren't used as revenue generators for cities and towns. Getting arrested and put in jail for drug possession means you were really carrying a lot of drugs and not just a few pills or a little coke.

-Aside from mortgages and some cars, there is little debt here. Credit cards are almost entirely the pay off every month kind with low limits, mine is €2500. Speaking of mortgages, the rates are super low, mine is 2%.

-There are grocery stores, drug stores, etc. in every neighborhood. You never have to drive to a store if you live in a city or town. Because of the lack of big box stores there are also cool businesses like butcher shops, s ...


careful, the wageslaves will say you're humblebragging.

really the only issue with the NL is the orthography. there's far too many AAs and EEs and GRAACHTs for anyon'es good.
 
2021-09-28 10:54:02 AM  

DerAppie: Rapmaster2000: The average American income is about $35K per year. That's about $2400 a month, if you're lucky, after taxes. What bills are we up to? $1200 for a crappy apartment. A few hundreds, let's call it two or three, for connectivity. And another $500 or so for basic utilities. That leaves you with about $400 for the month, or just $100 dollars a week.
That's American life. That's why Americans feel so poor. Because they are. American life is a gigantic rip-offf.
The average American - after subtracting basic bills of shelter and utilities - has just $100 to spend on food, clothing, kids, medicine, all the other necessities.

OK, but Americans don't pay household expenses with an "average income".  They pay it with the median household income, which is $63,688.

While your point stands, you should compare the averages to averages, not averages to medians. Which will change all the numbers in the equation.


I don't think the author was clear on whether or not he was using averages or medians.  I think the author does not know that you should always use median when discussing income, wealth, and expenses because there are dramatic outliers in all three areas.  It sounded to me like a flawed analysis by a person who does not normally do this kind of thing.

You see this a lot in net worth discussions.  "The average net worth of a Boomer is $1.2M so those Boomers are rich", but the median is only $266,000 inclusive of home value.  That's telling you that more than half of Boomers are not remotely rich.  They can't even spend that home value.  It's not liquid.

Or this thing he threw in:   that the average American now dies underwater to the tune of about $60,000. They've spent a lifetime paying off debts that they can never fully make good on

You follow his link and you find this:  Those consumers carried an average total balance of $61,554, including mortgage debt. Excluding home loans, the average balance was $12,875.

Medians are hard to come by in this area, but the fact that millions of people die with mortgage debt should not be a surprise.  Houses are expensive and they take a long time to pay off.  If I die, I will be $244,000 in debt - my mortgage.  That's not actually a problem though because the net value of the home more than covers the debt.  In addition, I have over a million in life insurance so the home is paid off.  He's complaining about debt like it's a problem that can't be mitigated.  I chose to have this debt and I can manage its risks.
 
2021-09-28 10:55:24 AM  

big pig peaches: There aren't millions of illegal immigrants in the US.

Man, I was wrong about Biden.


Well, that was expected. You don't have to tell us every little detail about your vapid life.

When you're right about something then let us know.
 
2021-09-28 10:56:59 AM  

Joe Satin: Persnickety: cretinbob: Nah
people overpay for a ton of shiat because they think bigger is better when they didn't even need the thing in the first place.
They have nothing inside their heads so they look to material goods for satisfaction.

//man that would have been an embarrassing typo

A lot of people would rather look well off than be well off.  This description fits the Trumps perfectly.  They give all the outwards appearances of being super rich but they've fought tooth and nail to keep the details of their financial lives hidden.  The public facts we do know, four bankruptcies and admissions of Russian financing, suggest a desperate situation indeed.  Is it any wonder so many people want to prop them up as icons?  If they can survive, maybe I have a chance.

One anecdote wrt this: I know a family who all voted for Trump.  They live in a shiatty apartment but the wife gets $50 manicures every other week while the husband keeps buying sports cars that are completely impractical for their family needs (two kids).  They always always always have new clothes every time I see them.  They have crap service industry jobs and have pulled every trick in the book to dodge creditors who keep on hounding them.  They've moved three times in the last five years.  Oh, and did I also mention that they are black?  Trump is their idol and if you ask me, it's because they see themselves in him.

So they suddenly started living this way when Trump got elected?

That pretty damn bad.


No, they were always like this.  And like Trump, none of their problems are ever their own fault.  They are always looking for a scapegoat while they waste money on trivialities.
 
2021-09-28 10:59:03 AM  

princhester: As others have pointed out, even while the conclusion of that article may have some validity, the facts and reasoning are crap.

So Wall St makes huge amounts out of extending credit that people can't repay?   How does that work exactly?


Easy.  You make it so that they repay the debt multiple times over without ever being able to pay off the principal.

This technique has been known for thousands of years.  In the old days, it would end with the indebted person becoming a slave of the creditor.
 
2021-09-28 10:59:29 AM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


Middle Tennessee and east Tennessee can see prices like that, for sure...  We live outside of Nashville, and I've also lived just outside of Knoxville.  Our first six months, we had an electric bill around $350 per month.

We installed high-efficiency AC/Heat pump units (1 upstairs and 1 downstairs) six months after we moved in to our current house, and dropped our monthly electric bill from $350 to $275.

Then we installed a 7.1kw solar system on the roof and dropped the electrical bill from $300 to an average of $100 or so (about $75 in the fall, winter, and spring, and $130 in the hottest part of the summer).

Water can run us $100/month for normal usage for a family of 3 -- though our city has high water costs, so we're not a good example on that one.

Gas for the car (the house is entirely electric) can run upwards of $400/month.

That's $850 before we mitigated a significant chunk of the cost with solar panels and high-efficiency air conditioning.

...and we compromised when we bought our most recent vehicle, too.  I drive back and forth to east Tennessee once per week, and five or six times per year I tow 1500-2000 lbs of stuff -- instead of the F150 I wanted, we got a Subaru Impreza and put a tow-hitch on it.  It will tow everything I can put behind it, and it gets 22mpg in the city, and upwards of 35mpg on the highway (about 28 while towing).
 
2021-09-28 10:59:39 AM  

big pig peaches: Nick Nostril: BlazeTrailer: Nick Nostril: Unfortunately, for many/most 'muricans, The United States of America is the name of a planet, not a single country amongst many on a planet. Their view of the world ends at the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Or they get the sense that this douche is representative of the rest of the world and DECIDE that the Atlantic and Pacific are boundaries to maintain some sanity.

Indeed. The US is the only developed country without some sort of single payer healthcare system. We must be the ones doing it right.

We're also the only country where hundreds of thousands of people can just walk across the border.

We simply cannot have social programs while the borders are basically open. It is unsustainable.


Where do you think all the "refugees" in Europe come from? They didn't buy airline tickets. They just show up as well.
 
2021-09-28 11:04:48 AM  
Here's the thing I noticed on trips to the US in the past 10 years - I used to think prices were better in the US than Canada for basic things. Turns out, they're not. They're more so in some cases. The only thing that turned out to be less expensive was alcohol.

I suspect there's a reason for that.  Something, something, keep the workers sedated, something.
 
2021-09-28 11:10:22 AM  

Father_Jack: Subtonic: Father_Jack: Subtonic: And the cherry on top. Just move, stupid!

i did.That's why i'm saying you should too.

Next you'll ask why I don't just buy more money.

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

and sorry for coming across like a humblebragging douche. its a hard line to walk online.

on the one hand, if i provide a lot of numbers and details, it sounds like i'm tooting my horn. but if i dont provide deets, it sounds like just talking points and not "real".

anyway hard balance to strike.

/sorry
//you should still move tho, america sucks


All my stuff is here and I don't have an aptitude for foreign languages. I could go be a GIS nerd in UK or some other commonwealth country, but that seems a lateral move at best. I have it comfortable here and I'm happy enough.  My bills are cheaper than anything quoted in the article (expect cable/internet/streaming but I can afford it), I like my job, I walk to work, I have insurance (gastrointestinal surgery and a three day hospital stay cost me 500 bucks), a sensible car that's paid off, no more student debt, and some decent savings as well as a pension and more time off than I would really use. I don't see what euope has to offer.

And they probably don't have Taco Bell.
 
2021-09-28 11:12:01 AM  
I've been very seriously considering moving out of the US. I have way too many family ties and my parents' health is failing, which makes it impractical to just leave the country. But this country really does f*ck you, and this article, while perhaps not completely spot on, nails enough of the general problem to make a case for not living here.

Not every place in the world is perfect, but the US has too many long-term problems. Things will not get better here in the foreseeable future.

I will probably tell my kids not to live here. For real. They're European citizens by birth - there's no reason for them to stay here past college.
 
2021-09-28 11:13:43 AM  

princhester: So Wall St makes huge amounts out of extending credit that people can't repay?   How does that work exactly?


Simple.
Say I loan you $100 and you need to pay me back 12 a month for a year. You lose your job/have some extra expenses or whatever and miss two payments. Now you owe me another $50 in fines and "administration cost". But since you can't afford to pay me more than that $12 a month, I'll graciously allow you to keep paying that amount. I'll just extend the term of the loan.

Now instead of repaying me $120, you'll be repaying me $300 because of the extra $50 I charged you, and the extra interest payments.

It becomes even more fun with creditcards where the minimum payment only covers interest. I can keep getting money from that principal I lend you for decades, and at up to 29% a year at that!
 
2021-09-28 11:18:27 AM  
The big ripoff in America is healthcare. People don't realize it because the cost is hidden, If your median income is $5K a month between what you pay and your employer pays its a minimum of $500/month and for a family of just three likely $1K. Add in deductible and most are paying 15-20% of their income towards health care.


When you take the per capita spend in the US and compare it to, say France, the extra amount we pay adds up to about what we pay in  individual income tax
 
2021-09-28 11:19:50 AM  
EVERYTHING IS BETTER IN EUROPE! THE STREETS ARE PAVED WITH GOLD!

/it sucks there too, don't kid yourself.
//look at the protests
///you can get better cured meats and wine for less that's about it
 
2021-09-28 11:20:34 AM  

clawsoon: princhester: As others have pointed out, even while the conclusion of that article may have some validity, the facts and reasoning are crap.

So Wall St makes huge amounts out of extending credit that people can't repay?   How does that work exactly?

Easy.  You make it so that they repay the debt multiple times over without ever being able to pay off the principal.

This technique has been known for thousands of years.  In the old days, it would end with the indebted person becoming a slave of the creditor.


Or more happily, with the creditor getting his skull crushed in with a big rock.
 
2021-09-28 11:21:14 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Every Umar Haique article is the same article.  America is stupid.  Americans are stupid.  Everyone is stupid but Umar Haique.

Where to begin with how stupid you are:

How much do I pay for internet and TV in Europe? About thirty dollars, give or take. How much do I pay in America? $150.

OK, well, just use the antenna then.  You don't need to pay for TV at all.


So your response to perfectly valid points is to put your fingers in your ears and yell "NA NA NA NA I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU"?

Yeah, that is pretty stupid.
 
2021-09-28 11:24:26 AM  

Carthax: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

Middle Tennessee and east Tennessee can see prices like that, for sure...  We live outside of Nashville, and I've also lived just outside of Knoxville.  Our first six months, we had an electric bill around $350 per month.

We installed high-efficiency AC/Heat pump units (1 upstairs and 1 downstairs) six months after we moved in to our current house, and dropped our monthly electric bill from $350 to $275.

Then we installed a 7.1kw solar system on the roof and dropped the electrical bill from $300 to an average of $100 or so (about $75 in the fall, winter, and spring, and $130 in the hottest part of the summer).

Water can run us $100/month for normal usage for a family of 3 -- though our city has high water costs, so we're not a good example on that one.

Gas for the car (the house is entirely electric) can run upwards of $400/month.

That's $850 before we mitigated a significant chunk of the cost with solar panels and high-efficiency air conditioning.

...and we compromised when we bought our most recent vehicle, too.  I drive back and forth to east Tennessee once per week, and five or six times per year I tow 1500-2000 lbs of stuff -- instead of the F150 I wanted, we got a Subaru Impreza and put a tow-hitch on it.  It will tow everything I can put behind it, and it gets 22mpg in the city, and upwards of 35mpg on the highway (about 28 while towing).


Still, if you are getting an average of even ~25 MPG your $400/mo in gas is 138 gallons per month at TN's current average gas price which would be 3400 miles per month.  That is waaaaaay more than the average monthly distance driven (around ~1100 miles/mo in the US) so your $400/mo in gas certainly wouldn't be representative of the general TN or US population.
 
2021-09-28 11:25:27 AM  

Pats_Cloth_Coat: The big ripoff in America is healthcare.


This. That is one other advantage Europe has. I think I pay $9,000 a year for "good" insurance (yet if something happens I'll still be on the hook, even small like a broken arm will probably cost me $300 out of pocket and that's if I don't have to get a $4000 ambulance ride. On just me, that's not a family. My mortgage on a new house isn't much more.
 
2021-09-28 11:25:39 AM  

Farking Clown Shoes: In other words...
[i.redd.it image 525x452]


Yes, everything wrong with American debt and poverty is caused by Republicans.  There haven't been any Democrat senators from a state with a lot of credit card companies, say, who has always pushed to benefit those companies.
 
2021-09-28 11:25:40 AM  
That's a lot of words for "It's expensive to be poor."
 
2021-09-28 11:27:01 AM  

Kattungali: Rapmaster2000: Every Umar Haique article is the same article.  America is stupid.  Americans are stupid.  Everyone is stupid but Umar Haique.

Where to begin with how stupid you are:

How much do I pay for internet and TV in Europe? About thirty dollars, give or take. How much do I pay in America? $150.

OK, well, just use the antenna then.  You don't need to pay for TV at all.

So your response to perfectly valid points is to put your fingers in your ears and yell "NA NA NA NA I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU"?

Yeah, that is pretty stupid.


I feel like I addressed the points quite well.  I observed he used average individual income to make a complaint about paying median household expenses.  That was wrong.  I highlighted how he was using a misleading debt statistic to make a point that Americans are somehow uniquely burdened.  That is also incorrect.  I mocked the idea that Europe (home of Eurovision) was a bastion of unique and enlightened content.

While the median internet price is roughly 40% more expensive in the US, you can get TV for free.  You don't have to pay for TV.  You can use an antenna or watch Pluto.  Is that not correct?
 
2021-09-28 11:27:15 AM  

TwilightZone: I've read a lot of criticisms of America by non-Americans that are really silly -- like New York city dwellers can't grow their own food (because NYC is the place to live if you want to grow your own food).  But this one is totally spot on, from top to bottom, start to finish.  Should be required reading in all high schools (before the kids pile on a bunch of student debt) but it won't.  Young farkers  -- take note!  Spread this to all your friends.


This one does hit a lot of the right notes. It IS better than 90% of the British ones that always boil down to "you Yanks don't do it all sensible like back 'home, eh?"
 
2021-09-28 11:40:37 AM  

justanotherfarkinfarker: I think I pay $9,000 a year for "good" insurance (yet if something happens I'll still be on the hook, even small like a broken arm will probably cost me $300 out of pocket and that's if I don't have to get a $4000 ambulance ride. On just me, that's not a family.


And that's cheap. Average cost for employer-funded health insurance premiums are approximately $20,000/year

Most people don't realize they're paying that much since it's a fringe benefit from your employer. It's like an enormous hidden tax.
 
2021-09-28 11:46:24 AM  

big pig peaches: Nick Nostril: BlazeTrailer: Nick Nostril: Unfortunately, for many/most 'muricans, The United States of America is the name of a planet, not a single country amongst many on a planet. Their view of the world ends at the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Or they get the sense that this douche is representative of the rest of the world and DECIDE that the Atlantic and Pacific are boundaries to maintain some sanity.

Indeed. The US is the only developed country without some sort of single payer healthcare system. We must be the ones doing it right.

We're also the only country where hundreds of thousands of people can just walk across the border.

We simply cannot have social programs while the borders are basically open. It is unsustainable.



With the sole exception of nutrition support for pregnant women, you cannot get any welfare benefits at all if you're not a legal resident. None. Zero

I've worked pm an eligibility system for a state health and social services. Literally the first step in the eligibility process is to check if you're a citizen or lawful resident. There are homeless who can't get help because they can't produce a birth certificate or ID
 
2021-09-28 11:52:46 AM  
Primus - "American Life" - Bonnaroo 2011 (Official Video) | Bonnaroo365
Youtube OqYYp5cTuM8
 
2021-09-28 11:54:33 AM  
They know it. They're just usually blaming the wrong people.
 
2021-09-28 11:55:29 AM  
The One With The Covid Conspiracies - SOME MORE NEWS
Youtube HA6krUO43jw


I've never agreed with Warmbo in any of these videos... until now. Hit play goes straight to the good spot.
 
2021-09-28 12:04:10 PM  
And we keep paying it. California put in solar and wind. Now they ask us not to use power between the hours of 4 and 9 pm because the sun went down. We pay around 20% more than most for this privilege. Cut the cord on cable but now my streaming choice costs are almost high enough to make me go back to cable. Kind of a pain to stream. You can't channel surf. I guess some don't even know what that is now. So old.
 
2021-09-28 12:14:46 PM  

Strategeryz0r: [Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/HA6krUO4​3jw]

I've never agreed with Warmbo in any of these videos... until now. Hit play goes straight to the good spot.


whoopsie, wrong thread. mah bad.
 
2021-09-28 12:20:20 PM  

justanotherfarkinfarker: EVERYTHING IS BETTER IN EUROPE! THE STREETS ARE PAVED WITH GOLD!

/it sucks there too, don't kid yourself.
//look at the protests
///you can get better cured meats and wine for less that's about it


I'll repeat myself: It's nicer here than anywhere I've ever lived in the US at any time in the last 40 years.
I know Americans and especially politicians like to point out all the bad stuff in Europe but you're fooling yourself. I've been here for going on 6 years and have no plans to ever leave
 
2021-09-28 12:20:29 PM  

farkitallletitend: And we keep paying it. California put in solar and wind. Now they ask us not to use power between the hours of 4 and 9 pm because the sun went down. We pay around 20% more than most for this privilege. Cut the cord on cable but now my streaming choice costs are almost high enough to make me go back to cable. Kind of a pain to stream. You can't channel surf. I guess some don't even know what that is now. So old.


Do we? The government keeps track of utility expenses by county: https://www.justice.gov/ust/m​eans-test​ing/20210515

Checking CA to other states, I don't see much of a difference. Seems to be about $500/m on average everywhere.
 
2021-09-28 12:26:22 PM  
64.media.tumblr.comView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 12:31:06 PM  
US can be pretty cheap to live in, but you need to already have a lot of assets.

Which means, for the average rent-paying Joe, it's a rip off.
 
2021-09-28 12:35:03 PM  

Strategeryz0r: [Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/HA6krUO4​3jw]

I've never agreed with Warmbo in any of these videos... until now. Hit play goes straight to the good spot.


I was thinking the same thing when I saw this yesterday. WARMBO WAS RIGHT!!
 
2021-09-28 12:37:59 PM  

Persnickety: One anecdote wrt this: I know a family who all voted for Trump.  They live in a shiatty apartment but the wife gets $50 manicures every other week while the husband keeps buying sports cars that are completely impractical for their family needs (two kids).  They always always always have new clothes every time I see them.  They have crap service industry jobs and have pulled every trick in the book to dodge creditors who keep on hounding them.  They've moved three times in the last five years.  Oh, and did I also mention that they are black?  Trump is their idol and if you ask me, it's because they see themselves in him.


We are glad you have kept track of this Black family through five years and three moves.  We need someone watching them closely.
 
2021-09-28 12:38:03 PM  
That's the Free Market you're talking about! It's Perfect! I suppose you want to live in some Commie hellhole.
 
2021-09-28 12:41:53 PM  

Father_Jack: Subtonic: Father_Jack: Subtonic: And the cherry on top. Just move, stupid!

i did.That's why i'm saying you should too.

Next you'll ask why I don't just buy more money.

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

and sorry for coming across like a humblebragging douche. its a hard line to walk online.

on the one hand, if i provide a lot of numbers and details, it sounds like i'm tooting my horn. but if i dont provide deets, it sounds like just talking points and not "real".

anyway hard balance to strike.

/sorry
//you should still move tho, america sucks


You claim you moved permanently to Germany.

Ok, tell me how any of the people in a bad financial trap in US can move to Germany. Are they taking economic refugees from the US? We both know they aren't. Do they let visa overstays work and stay forever? We both know they don't.

In fact, you require either a job offer to sponsor you for a work visa or the kind of cash to be a job creator 250,000 euros.

I believe, iirc, tracing lineage back can get something too. At least that's what my born in Germany grandfather has told me long ago.

So when you say "why don't you just move to a place like Germany" you are being an obtuse asshole. And it makes you come off like a liar who doesn't know what it takes to move.
 
2021-09-28 12:55:37 PM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


Using PG&E in California its easily $500. I pay around $300 a month in California under a community ran system.
 
2021-09-28 1:05:36 PM  

King Keepo: Paying sales tax at point of sale is infuriating

Particularly

infuriating when you have to pay a sales tax to turn something into your property, then another constantly climbing annual tax to just continue to own that property, unless you're a religious establishment, in which case you are free to avail yourself of ALL the benefits those taxes provide without paying a goddam dime towards making them available, even if you're fabulously wealthy.

Governments enacting laws that provide religious establishments with uniquely beneficial tax treatment is precisely the thing that is specifically prohibited by the First Amendment.

Until the Supreme Court decided "establishment" is akshully...a goddam verb.

No. It isn't.

An "establishment of religion" = religious establishment (a broad term encompassing all manner of churches, temples, mosques, etc.)

Any sensible court would know this. But, well...'murica --where the dumbest conceivable interpretation is the starting point.
 
2021-09-28 1:06:15 PM  
How odd! No one has been talking about this, anywhere, ever!
 
2021-09-28 1:13:01 PM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


I used to live in a tiny duplex in NH that had electric heat. My electric bill in the cold months exceeded $500 each month. It was ridiculous!

Now, my landlord was an electrician who lived in the house right next door, and I always wondered if he were running his house off my electric meter or something. I was never able to figure that out.
 
2021-09-28 1:23:05 PM  

OccamsWhiskers: Hey Nurse!: There's a lot of cherry picking going on in that article.

Yes, some of the numbers are pretty skewed. It's not a well-vetted article, but the general point stands. Income tax in the US is relatively low, but we get very little in exchange for that. For those who haven't made it to well above average income & stability, it's a financial disaster.

Hey Nurse!: The solution is simple. If you don't like it here, get the fark out.

That's not simple at all. At least not if you don't have a ton of money. But the US is pretty comfortable in that case, too.


.
I've recently moved to the States - shudder - for a year or two.

It was simple enough for him to move up his own ass.
 
2021-09-28 1:30:39 PM  

harleyquinnical: Tr0mBoNe: Most Americans:
[Fark user image image 850x637]

Easy to get by the taste when it's the only taste most of us have ever known


Easy to get by the taste when you don't have an option.
 
2021-09-28 1:32:38 PM  
Being middle class in Europe is not all its cracked up to be. I made a friend who'd just moved from Germany who was just astonished that middle class people in the US could afford toys like Jet Skis and lake cabins. Its true that a lot of goods and services are subsidized, but they take so much in taxes that you can't really do anything except just exist.

Being rich in Europe seems awesome. But its almost impossible to become rich. Most of the rich people there are still spending family blood money from 300 years ago.

Like it or not, America is still the land of opportunity, which is why people still risk life and limb to come here.
 
2021-09-28 1:34:17 PM  
Colorblind people hate you Umair.

Fark user image
 
2021-09-28 1:35:37 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 1:46:41 PM  

Ambivalence: Speak for yourself, I've known it for a while.


Same, and it's why I'm pissed off.
 
2021-09-28 1:53:39 PM  

Magnanimous_J: Being middle class in Europe is not all its cracked up to be. I made a friend who'd just moved from Germany who was just astonished that middle class people in the US could afford toys like Jet Skis and lake cabins. Its true that a lot of goods and services are subsidized, but they take so much in taxes that you can't really do anything except just exist.


Hmmm... jet ski or healthcare. That's a though one. Besides, a jet ski is like 15k new. That isn't anywhere near "I can't afford it because I'm middle class in Europe" money.
 
2021-09-28 1:54:29 PM  
The onion figured this out 15+ years ago:

Cost Of Living Now Outweighs Benefits
 
2021-09-28 2:00:48 PM  

DerAppie: Magnanimous_J: Being middle class in Europe is not all its cracked up to be. I made a friend who'd just moved from Germany who was just astonished that middle class people in the US could afford toys like Jet Skis and lake cabins. Its true that a lot of goods and services are subsidized, but they take so much in taxes that you can't really do anything except just exist.

Hmmm... jet ski or healthcare. That's a though one. Besides, a jet ski is like 15k new. That isn't anywhere near "I can't afford it because I'm middle class in Europe" money.


I don't know what to tell you. Apparently big ticket toys are extremely rare for the middle class to own in Europe.
 
2021-09-28 2:02:50 PM  
Couldn't afford Obvious tag.
 
2021-09-28 2:04:48 PM  

Rapmaster2000: The average American income is about $35K per year. That's about $2400 a month, if you're lucky, after taxes. What bills are we up to? $1200 for a crappy apartment. A few hundreds, let's call it two or three, for connectivity. And another $500 or so for basic utilities. That leaves you with about $400 for the month, or just $100 dollars a week.
That's American life. That's why Americans feel so poor. Because they are. American life is a gigantic rip-offf.
The average American - after subtracting basic bills of shelter and utilities - has just $100 to spend on food, clothing, kids, medicine, all the other necessities.

OK, but Americans don't pay household expenses with an "average income".  They pay it with the median household income, which is $63,688.


Yeah, those numbers being given are skewed and I doubt they've been seriously vetted. There is still a point to be made that average wages have been stagnant for 30-40 years now but costs have not.

In our area an okay (not great but not a slum) apartment with 2B1b cost $800 per month about eight years ago. Now that same apartment has ballooned to almost twice that cost. A 1400 sqft rental house that went for $1300 per month goes now for $2700. Meanwhile our area's mode salary has only gone up from $25k to $26k and average from $26k to $28k.

Cost of living and inflation have well outpaced wages and the jobs market hasn't ever truly recovered from the '08 crash. You used to be fine with one earner per household, now most can't get by without two. And people wonder why the more recent generations haven't been throwing lavish weddings, buying houses, and overall have the least generational wealth.
 
2021-09-28 2:09:53 PM  

Magnanimous_J: DerAppie: Magnanimous_J: Being middle class in Europe is not all its cracked up to be. I made a friend who'd just moved from Germany who was just astonished that middle class people in the US could afford toys like Jet Skis and lake cabins. Its true that a lot of goods and services are subsidized, but they take so much in taxes that you can't really do anything except just exist.

Hmmm... jet ski or healthcare. That's a though one. Besides, a jet ski is like 15k new. That isn't anywhere near "I can't afford it because I'm middle class in Europe" money.

I don't know what to tell you. Apparently big ticket toys are extremely rare for the middle class to own in Europe.


lmao what a farking ridiculous argument.
 
2021-09-28 2:11:22 PM  
Wow,  Umair Haque.   Fark has fallen on hard times.   For those of you who missed the memo, Marxism failed.  It didn't even have a good run and fail, It failed right out of the gate.
 
2021-09-28 2:18:10 PM  

Magnanimous_J: Apparently big ticket toys are extremely rare for the middle class to own in Europe.


They probably are. I know no-one who owns a jet ski or a lake cabin. But that isn't because they are unaffordable.

/Though the cabin might be
//Very small country and all that
///3
 
2021-09-28 2:19:27 PM  

Smackledorfer: Father_Jack: Subtonic: Father_Jack: Subtonic: And the cherry on top. Just move, stupid!

i did.That's why i'm saying you should too.

Next you'll ask why I don't just buy more money.

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

and sorry for coming across like a humblebragging douche. its a hard line to walk online.

on the one hand, if i provide a lot of numbers and details, it sounds like i'm tooting my horn. but if i dont provide deets, it sounds like just talking points and not "real".

anyway hard balance to strike.

/sorry
//you should still move tho, america sucks

You claim you moved permanently to Germany.

Ok, tell me how any of the people in a bad financial trap in US can move to Germany. Are they taking economic refugees from the US? We both know they aren't. Do they let visa overstays work and stay forever? We both know they don't.

In fact, you require either a job offer to sponsor you for a work visa or the kind of cash to be a job creator 250,000 euros.

I believe, iirc, tracing lineage back can get something too. At least that's what my born in Germany grandfather has told me long ago.

So when you say "why don't you just move to a place like Germany" you are being an obtuse asshole. And it makes you come off like a liar who doesn't know what it takes to move.


Will given as I have moved abroad 3x to Germany and 2x to Switzerland at various points in my life I do think I know how to do it as I have done so. Sure your mileage may vary based on your circumstances but if you have the desire and any redeemable set of skills in a wide variety of professions, yes, you can emigrate.

I have friends in berlin and zurich who aren't even german speaking who did it. Or if you want to not have to learn german you can go to Australia or New Zealand- friends and relatives of mine have done that, too.

Yes you need skills - but that's true to any country. I've only cold moved to another country 2x the rest of the times were internal transfers.

So, if exhorting people to get out of a country that wants to enslave them makes me sound like an obtuse asshole, well...okay, if that's how you wanna take it?

All I'm trying to say is,it can be done, many of us have done it, and leave to a place where regular people don't worry about getting fired all the time, where their kids funding is going to come from, or when theyre gonna get a day off.

Each time I've done its taken about a year to coordinate,plan get the visas from the embassies etc. Generally it's a hassle but doable. It's easier for academic visas since the unis do the lifting. Then you get to your country of destination and flail for a year or two till you get it dialed. A lot of expats bail at that point - a mistake I made 2x.

After about yr 3 you're settled and the noise and bullshiat is far away, only really shows up when you get called an obtuse asshole by wage slaves on fark.

Places like Australia give you citizenship reasonably quickly, Germany is less generous w the passport but perm residency is reasonable. The german heritage thing is a thing but I'm not sure as I've not investigated it since I'm not a kraut by heritage. The Italians and the Irish do this as well. Maybe evildog can Comme. On getting a Nederlands paaasseenpoortengraaacht, which I'm sure is the Dutch word for that
 
2021-09-28 2:19:43 PM  
Didnt know it?  I've always known it....and so I live my life in a way that won't  use so many services that aren't necessary.  And then you buy second-hand, buy used cars, just don't pay for that shiat.  Life gets much cheaper.

Now you guys:  You pay for it.  All the optional stuff, as well as the necessities.  You not only PAY for it, you keep asking for more of it, for more choices, for more kinds of services, for more convenient services, for more, more, more.  Consumer spending in the US is the highest on the planet, and the younger the generation, the more they spend on bullshiat.  They're trained--much better trained than I ever was.  Because i blew it off and lived in the country.  It didn't get to me so much.
But most of you?  You're farking doomed.  And you PAY for it.  Willingly.  Gladly.  Get all snobby about it--how  much optional money you spend on things, because that makes you a better person than I am.  Bragging about your loss of control over your spending habits, like this is  some virtue of modern America life that I somehow missed out on.

You know why it costs more to live in America than anywhere else?  because you will farking pay for it.You're willing victims who keep going back for more.  You MADE this farking world, with all your money, all your piggery, all your treating the whole world like some kind of Disneyland that was put here only for you to trash.  That's why we don't look like other countries--they were not only protected from this nonsense by governments that actually give a fark about their citizens, they just don't believe in it as much.  (Unless you count South Korea or japan, and look what is happening to those poor people.  This is what you want?)    You were raised on it, and you not only believe in it, it's pretty much your reason for living.  ADVERTISING WORKS

so keep on paying your way, and make sure you get your money's worth out of all those trips, all those nights out, all those Uber rides, all that fancy food, all those trips to get your dog groomed while you have your nails done.  This is all your fault.

Yes, I do have all kinds of numbers to back this up.  I've posted them before.  You know I have them.
 
2021-09-28 2:27:15 PM  

BeotchPudding: FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'


OK, anti-american COVIDiot.
 
2021-09-28 2:29:19 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Last time the Democrats were in charge they tried to fix healthcare.  The howling obstructionism from Republicans was deafening.


What that actually looked like:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 2:30:21 PM  

Father_Jack: Smackledorfer: Father_Jack: Subtonic: Father_Jack: Subtonic: And the cherry on top. Just move, stupid!

i did.That's why i'm saying you should too.

Next you'll ask why I don't just buy more money.

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

and sorry for coming across like a humblebragging douche. its a hard line to walk online.

on the one hand, if i provide a lot of numbers and details, it sounds like i'm tooting my horn. but if i dont provide deets, it sounds like just talking points and not "real".

anyway hard balance to strike.

/sorry
//you should still move tho, america sucks

You claim you moved permanently to Germany.

Ok, tell me how any of the people in a bad financial trap in US can move to Germany. Are they taking economic refugees from the US? We both know they aren't. Do they let visa overstays work and stay forever? We both know they don't.

In fact, you require either a job offer to sponsor you for a work visa or the kind of cash to be a job creator 250,000 euros.

I believe, iirc, tracing lineage back can get something too. At least that's what my born in Germany grandfather has told me long ago.

So when you say "why don't you just move to a place like Germany" you are being an obtuse asshole. And it makes you come off like a liar who doesn't know what it takes to move.

Will given as I have moved abroad 3x to Germany and 2x to Switzerland at various points in my life I do think I know how to do it as I have done so. Sure your mileage may vary based on your circumstances but if you have the desire and any redeemable set of skills in a wide variety of professions, yes, you can emigrate.

I have friends in berlin and zurich who aren't even german speaking who did it. Or if you want to not have to learn german you can go to Australia or New Zealand- friends and relatives of mine have done that, too.

Yes you need skills - but that's true to any country. I've only cold moved to another country 2x the rest of the times were internal transfers.

So, if exhorting people to get out of a country that wants to enslave them makes me sound like an obtuse asshole, well...okay, if that's how you wanna take it?

All I'm trying to say is,it can be done, many of us have done it, and leave to a place where regular people don't worry about getting fired all the time, where their kids funding is going to come from, or when theyre gonna get a day off.

Each time I've done its taken about a year to coordinate,plan get the visas from the embassies etc. Generally it's a hassle but doable. It's easier for academic visas since the unis do the lifting. Then you get to your country of destination and flail for a year or two till you get it dialed. A lot of expats bail at that point - a mistake I made 2x.

After about yr 3 you're settled and the noise and bullshiat is far away, only really shows up when you get called an obtuse asshole by wage slaves on fark.

Places like Australia give you citizenship reasonably quickly, Germany is less generous w the passport but perm residency is reasonable. The german heritage thing is a thing but I'm not sure as I've not investigated it since I'm not a kraut by heritage. The Italians and the Irish do this as well. Maybe evildog can Comme. On getting a Nederlands paaasseenpoortengraaacht, which I'm sure is the Dutch word for that


Again, the question isn't whether it CAN be done.

The question is whether it is viable for any significant number if those who actually need to in the way tfa describes. And the answer to that is no, it surely is not.

The people making 35,000 in the US DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS TO MOVE TO GERMANY.

And as a person who has done it multiple times and knows all these folks who have, why don't you support your argument with a quick piece of advice to highlight how simple and available it is as an option?  We'll wait.
 
2021-09-28 2:30:49 PM  

BeotchPudding: Unright: BeotchPudding: FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'

Because the U.S. is the greatest, best country God has ever given man on the face of the earth? Ok, Hannity.

It would be really awesome if the US swallowed some pride and learned from what other countries were doing well.

What Country spread Democracy around the world?


We'll find out for the first time when it doesn't happen at the point of a gun.
 
2021-09-28 2:31:45 PM  
Tldr: you aren't just saying it can be done. You are saying it is a solution advisable to wage slaves.
 
2021-09-28 2:34:42 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Kattungali: Rapmaster2000: Every Umar Haique article is the same article.  America is stupid.  Americans are stupid.  Everyone is stupid but Umar Haique.

Where to begin with how stupid you are:

How much do I pay for internet and TV in Europe? About thirty dollars, give or take. How much do I pay in America? $150.

OK, well, just use the antenna then.  You don't need to pay for TV at all.

So your response to perfectly valid points is to put your fingers in your ears and yell "NA NA NA NA I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU"?

Yeah, that is pretty stupid.

I feel like I addressed the points quite well.  I observed he used average individual income to make a complaint about paying median household expenses.  That was wrong.  I highlighted how he was using a misleading debt statistic to make a point that Americans are somehow uniquely burdened.  That is also incorrect.  I mocked the idea that Europe (home of Eurovision) was a bastion of unique and enlightened content.

While the median internet price is roughly 40% more expensive in the US, you can get TV for free.  You don't have to pay for TV.  You can use an antenna or watch Pluto.  Is that not correct?


I agree with Kattungali. That's how you're coming across.

I asked about someone stuck in an abusive relationship who can't afford $1400 a month rent, and your answer was that *other* people are fine, as if ignoring the number of people that can't afford housing.

/Those who can't afford rent, AC, heat, internet, or food better than ramen noodles DGAF about statistics and math theories.

//Those who don't understand how easily you can lose everything in a surprise divorce or health emergency will be shocked when it's their turn to be one of the poors.

///third slashie put me in debt
 
2021-09-28 2:35:42 PM  

Rapmaster2000: I just remembered a Planet Money podcast sometime ago about these interesting imbalances in the German power market that make electricity in Germany very expensive.  So there's this:  https://www.statista.com/statis​tics/263492/electricity-prices-in-sele​cted-countries/
Electricity in Germany is 147% more expensive than in the US.


And their homes are 147% smaller?
Because the big house is optional, not a necessity of life.
If you wanted to make an argument about how piggish we are, you could start and end it right there with home size.  It says a lot about us, how big we think we need our homes to be, right?  And how many we own, which is another subject.

New homes in Canada and the US are big and getting bigger.  The average size of a newly constructed single-family detached home is now 2,600 square feet in the US and probably 2,200 in Canada.  The average size of a new house in the US has doubled since 1960.  Though data is sparse for Canada, it appears that the average size of a new house has doubled since the 1970s.
We like our personal space.  A lot.  Indeed, space per person has been growing even faster than house size.  Because as our houses have been growing, our families have been shrinking, and this means that per-capita space has increased dramatically.  Australia, Canadians and Americans enjoy the greatest per-capita floorspace in the world.  The average Canadian or American each has double the residential space of the average UK, Spanish, or Italian resident.


Fark user imageView Full Size


But if  you live in one of the desirable areas (translation:  places where you can make a lot of money to support your habits), then living space is going down, because they already know that you're a junkie and will pay for that access to more money, even if you have to give up some of your living standards.
Haha!  And you pay extra for it!
 
2021-09-28 2:38:56 PM  

Smackledorfer: Tldr: you aren't just saying it can be done. You are saying it is a solution advisable to wage slaves.


Are you trying to sound like an aggressive dick? You're succeeding admirably.

Ok so since you're waiting...

I said you have to have skills. Did you miss that part?

So, maybe you could Google what skills are in demand abroad. Health care, IT, stuff like this? Or on the cheap, get a CELTA English teaching cert, and go teach english till you figure out your next step. Knew a lot of expats who started teaching English, especially the ones who went to Asia. My brother did this in Japan as part of the JET program.

Awaiting the next angry goal post move,
Your obtuse asshole
 
2021-09-28 3:03:18 PM  

Father_Jack: Smackledorfer: Father_Jack: Subtonic: Father_Jack: Subtonic: And the cherry on top. Just move, stupid!

i did.That's why i'm saying you should too.

Next you'll ask why I don't just buy more money.

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

and sorry for coming across like a humblebragging douche. its a hard line to walk online.

on the one hand, if i provide a lot of numbers and details, it sounds like i'm tooting my horn. but if i dont provide deets, it sounds like just talking points and not "real".

anyway hard balance to strike.

/sorry
//you should still move tho, america sucks

You claim you moved permanently to Germany.

Ok, tell me how any of the people in a bad financial trap in US can move to Germany. Are they taking economic refugees from the US? We both know they aren't. Do they let visa overstays work and stay forever? We both know they don't.

In fact, you require either a job offer to sponsor you for a work visa or the kind of cash to be a job creator 250,000 euros.

I believe, iirc, tracing lineage back can get something too. At least that's what my born in Germany grandfather has told me long ago.

So when you say "why don't you just move to a place like Germany" you are being an obtuse asshole. And it makes you come off like a liar who doesn't know what it takes to move.

Will given as I have moved abroad 3x to Germany and 2x to Switzerland at various points in my life I do think I know how to do it as I have done so. Sure your mileage may vary based on your circumstances but if you have the desire and any redeemable set of skills in a wide variety of professions, yes, you can emigrate.

I have friends in berlin and zurich who aren't even german speaking who did it. Or if you want to not have to learn german you can go to Australia or New Zealand- friends and relatives of mine have done that, too.

Yes you need skills - but that's true to any country. I've only cold moved to another country 2x the rest of the times were internal transfers.

So, if exhorting people to get out of a country that wants to enslave them makes me sound like an obtuse asshole, well...okay, if that's how you wanna take it?

All I'm trying to say is,it can be done, many of us have done it, and leave to a place where regular people don't worry about getting fired all the time, where their kids funding is going to come from, or when theyre gonna get a day off.

Each time I've done its taken about a year to coordinate,plan get the visas from the embassies etc. Generally it's a hassle but doable. It's easier for academic visas since the unis do the lifting. Then you get to your country of destination and flail for a year or two till you get it dialed. A lot of expats bail at that point - a mistake I made 2x.

After about yr 3 you're settled and the noise and bullshiat is far away, only really shows up when you get called an obtuse asshole by wage slaves on fark.

Places like Australia give you citizenship reasonably quickly, Germany is less generous w the passport but perm residency is reasonable. The german heritage thing is a thing but I'm not sure as I've not investigated it since I'm not a kraut by heritage. The Italians and the Irish do this as well. Maybe evildog can Comme. On getting a Nederlands paaasseenpoortengraaacht, which I'm sure is the Dutch word for that


I'm not a Dutch citizen, I am here on a work visa. Anyone can apply for a job here and if you get it you can live here. After 5 years you can apply for permanent residency or citizenship. One unique thing about The Netherlands is the Dutch American Friendship Treaty. This allows American entrepreneurs to come here to start businesses.
 
2021-09-28 3:04:03 PM  
Oh, it's this guy again. His particular brand of outrage porn is particularly unpalatable to me, but I have to admire his tenacity in writing a new article every few days to get those shock clicks.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 3:05:58 PM  

SUMMERSN0WS: I asked about someone stuck in an abusive relationship who can't afford $1400 a month rent, and your answer was that *other* people are fine, as if ignoring the number of people that can't afford housing.


I'm sorry, but we're literally discussing the mathematics Umar used to prove that incomes are not high enough. He made an error.  The real number you use to deduct household expenses from is household income.  There is nothing more or less to it than that.  That some households are suboptimal is a problem in every nation, but it's not relevant to the numbers Umar is clumsily using to make a false point.

/Those who can't afford rent, AC, heat, internet, or food better than ramen noodles DGAF about statistics and math theories.

Those who attempt to understand and prescribe solutions to those problems DO GAF about using the correct numbers.  You can't solve a problem with bad data.  Umar can be upset about the cost of living if he would like, but if he wants to sit with the professionals and actually deal with problems, he's going to have to use the language of the professionals.  He's not.
 
2021-09-28 3:07:00 PM  

Father_Jack: Smackledorfer: Tldr: you aren't just saying it can be done. You are saying it is a solution advisable to wage slaves.

Are you trying to sound like an aggressive dick? You're succeeding admirably.

Ok so since you're waiting...

I said you have to have skills. Did you miss that part?

So, maybe you could Google what skills are in demand abroad. Health care, IT, stuff like this? Or on the cheap, get a CELTA English teaching cert, and go teach english till you figure out your next step. Knew a lot of expats who started teaching English, especially the ones who went to Asia. My brother did this in Japan as part of the JET program.

Awaiting the next angry goal post move,
Your obtuse asshole


So again, your proposed solution to how shiatty america is for the folks referred to in TFA has no bearing at all on those folks.

And in lieu of telling us all how simple it is, you tell us to study it out.

fwiw, I'm not looking to leave america, as I'm doing well here. I'm just explaining to you why someone accused you of saying "next you'll ask why I don't buy more money".  Your solution to those in a bad situation is to "just do things that take lots of money"
 
2021-09-28 3:08:48 PM  

Baloo Uriza: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Last time the Democrats were in charge they tried to fix healthcare.  The howling obstructionism from Republicans was deafening.

What that actually looked like:
[Fark user image 850x448]


Thank you. It's hard to imagine something dumber than a Ben Garrison cartoon and the visualization here is a real help.
 
2021-09-28 3:13:49 PM  
Not sure what I think about the article because it's just so high level and cherry picking as some other folks have said. That FRED chart is of limited use... yeah mortgage debt is high... so are home values. That isn't really a good comparison to illustrating the impact of an average American's upward mobility, purchasing power, short term debt, etc etc. It also leaves off important factors like income/debt ratio, maturity of debt etc.

The apples to oranges comparisons throughout the article also feel tired and silly.... he talks about paying $30/month for TV in Europe and then says in the US it's $150. There's no obligation to pay $150... where does he even get that? Throw up an Antenna and get it for free. Make a wide variety of streaming choices, and easily keep it at whatever price point you want.

His statement on utility bills is preposterous. Much of the US is getting an average of 0.11/kWh [1], while the EU is an average 0.21 Euro/kWh. ($0.025 ) [2]
Natural gas rates in the US are similar... $10.80/1000 cubic feet[3], while the EU is 0.07euro /kWh [4]
3.41 cubic feet of natural gas = 1kWh, and a a Euro/dollar rate of 1:1.17  would make the EU average $24/1k cubic feet.

Makes me wonder if he got an NYC apartment for his writing gig and then realized he had asked for far too little money.

He also says the average income in the US is $35K. He has a link to his data, but, I think the median income per household is more accurate at $67K [5]. The average income in the EU is 17,858 Euro. ($20893). [6]
So $35K vs $21K?
t's a pity that the EU doesn't count by household since not everyone has a full-time job. Multiplying the EU number x2 might be a fair comparisons of household since they don't survey it quite the same way.
But still we'd be talking $67K vs $41.8K
The US household income is not net, so subtract about $4.6K for taxes. ( assuming married's filing jointly, standard deduction etc )  so $62.5K vs $41.8K

I'm not going to touch the health care stuff... it might be correct, it might not be. there are so many YMMV things there and I'm not going to defend it. It's not a good system.

But the thing is... I really wish this had been an actual in-depth comparison of what the costs really are. Being so flippant and claiming we're being ripped off needs to come with solid facts, otherwise it's emotional whining.


[1] https://www.eia.gov/electricity/m​onthl​y/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a
[2] https://www.statista.com/statisti​cs/10​46505/household-electricity-prices-eur​opean-union-eu28-country/
[3] https://www.statista.com/statisti​cs/18​7308/average-price-for-natural-gas-in-​the-us-by-sector-since-2005/
[4] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/sta​tisti​cs-explained/index.php?title=Natural_g​as_price_statistics#Natural_gas_prices​_for_household_consumers
[5] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/p​ress-​releases/2021/income-poverty-health-in​surance-coverage.html
[6] https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.​eu/nui/show.do?dataset=ilc_di04
 
2021-09-28 3:16:30 PM  

Father_Jack: That being said, i live in germany, and i can agree with much of what he's saying:


Father_Jack: i guess i'm advocating that americans should learn a foreign language and leave for somewhere in western europe. There are plenty of jobs here, come get one.


I figured I'd remind Father_Jack of his own words, lest he continue trying to claim he wasn't proposing "move to europe" as a solution to the struggling wage slaves TFA is talking about.

And he's gone from "just learn a language and come on over!" to "oh, and yes you need to have an in-demand skillset that requires an education, multiple years of navigating immigration, etc"

Telling the guy making 35,000 dollars in wage slavery in the US he should just spend a few years getting a skill that is in-demand in France and learning French and then spend a couple more years navigating their system and finding the company who wants to hire him is terrible farking advice.

It's perfectly fine advice for the guy making 170,000 dollars who already has a skillset that is in demand though. But something tells me the author isn't that concerned about them.
 
2021-09-28 3:20:29 PM  

Nick Nostril: BlazeTrailer: Nick Nostril: Unfortunately, for many/most 'muricans, The United States of America is the name of a planet, not a single country amongst many on a planet. Their view of the world ends at the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Or they get the sense that this douche is representative of the rest of the world and DECIDE that the Atlantic and Pacific are boundaries to maintain some sanity.

Indeed. The US is the only developed country without some sort of single payer healthcare system. We must be the ones doing it right.


What the hell are Medicaid and Medicare then? They cover more health procedures than any other system.
 
2021-09-28 3:24:13 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Baloo Uriza: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Last time the Democrats were in charge they tried to fix healthcare.  The howling obstructionism from Republicans was deafening.

What that actually looked like:
[Fark user image 850x448]

Thank you. It's hard to imagine something dumber than a Ben Garrison cartoon and the visualization here is a real help.


The point is the Democrats when they have a trifecta could ram shiat through if they wanted to without asking for Republican permission.  The problem is, they don't.
 
2021-09-28 3:25:59 PM  

proteus_b: What the hell are Medicaid and Medicare then? They cover more health procedures than any other system.


Even pretending Medicaid and Medicare were one entity, since they do not cover the entire population you can't really call that "single-payer" without completely failing to understand the word single.
 
2021-09-28 3:31:50 PM  
That guy thinks he has some sort of special insight. We KNOW we're being ripped off. And for the most part, we can't do a damned thing about it.
 
2021-09-28 3:39:50 PM  

Farking Clown Shoes: In other words...
[i.redd.it image 525x452]


Fark that. It's everyone and it's everywhere.
 
2021-09-28 3:49:00 PM  

Some Bass Playing Guy: That guy thinks he has some sort of special insight. We KNOW we're being ripped off. And for the most part, we can't do a damned thing about it.


Oh please, you can easily just become a highly skilled individual that is in-demand in the Netherlands in an area where there are a low number of Dutch filling the slot and an employer will have your permits in place in just a few weeks.

Or you can open a Taco Bell franchise there and as an Entrepreneur all you'll have to do is show the Dutch authorities that living mas provides a cultural, training, and employment benefit to their country.

Lazy American wage slaves staying in America.


Excessive snark aside, there are billions of people living on dollars per day. I don't know why they don't all move to Europe.  Oh wait, ya know what, it is literally impossible to explain how stupid "just move" is as a solution to things without snark.  The EU has 450 million people. The US has 350 million.  Billions are doing worse than those in the US.  But the EU... man that's where the jobs is, I tell you what.

BTW, Germany has around 300,000 people living and working there who aren't EU citizens.

350,000,000
000,300,000

Well, wait though, I left out their Blue Cards, which are for the educated. They've got like 30,000 of those too!

So... I guess the largest economy in the EU and the 4th largest economy in the world can probably keep it's non-EU worker numbers growing by 20% or so per year, give the entirety of that growth to US citizens (US makes up about 7% of the work permits they grant), and that solves the problem for 60,000 upper middle class (and some of the lower upper, depending on terminology) trying to flee the cesspool of mad max life that is the United States.

/the crazy thing about this thread is I'm rarely a defender of the US and love lots of the policies in the rest of what we lazily call the first world, and constantly attack our poor policies. But it is, quite frankly, absurd to suggest that the US is a shiathole of wage slavery in the big picture, and doubly shenanigans to propose moving as a solution. The solution to our shiatty situation here involves our own people ceasing to vote for the GOP and taking it from there.  I wish us luck.
 
2021-09-28 4:09:34 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: Oh, it's this guy again. His particular brand of outrage porn is particularly unpalatable to me, but I have to admire his tenacity in writing a new article every few days to get those shock clicks.

[Fark user image 684x1080]


Yep.  This guy is a pizza cutter.  All edge and no point or viable solution.   Not even a "We should try to improve society somewhat".

Just AMERICA SUX, LOL! so you should RUN AWAY FROM YOUR PROBLEMS! THE GRASS IN EUROPE IS EXCEPTIONALLY GREEN!

Personally I'd rather stick around and try to improve society in whatever small way I can.
 
2021-09-28 4:11:40 PM  
I was at a bar on a work trip in 2018 in San Diego across from my hotel enjoying a drink when a chubby American woman (European obese - American cute) from Texas saddled up to me and I think started hitting on me.

I told her I was an American that lived to Europe and based on her questions I told her that my quality of life is so much better in Europe than the USA and I have no intention on moving back.

She was physically distressed. Much like many of the responses in this thread.

The author is right. The USA is one of the richest countries in the world but everyone lives like a poor European. You have to drive everywhere (instead of driving being a luxury), you eat like poor people, you cant go to the hospital like poor Europeans on general insurance, you have no retirement, just everything sucks.
 
2021-09-28 4:14:21 PM  

starsrift: It's called serfdom. Very old concept. Still works! Just have to hide it behind a few layers.


Sounds like slavery with extra steps.
 
2021-09-28 4:15:40 PM  

Baloo Uriza: The point is the Democrats when they have a trifecta could ram shiat through if they wanted to without asking for Republican permission.


You don't have to explain it: I get what it was trying to say, but it's also untrue. The last time Democrats had a supermajority it lasted for less than a year (it was during the 111th Congress). President Barack Obama called a special joint session of Congress to promote health care reform, which successfully passed.

(That session was infamous for producing this infamous image of an asshole)
i2.cdn.turner.comView Full Size


Here's what they managed to get through:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_U​n​ited_States_Congress#Major_legislation​

The supermajority ended with the election of Scott Brown (R-MA) on February 4, 2010. Congress then became infamously obstructive even to the point of blocking any and all nominations via parliamentary procedures.
 
2021-09-28 4:17:49 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: (That session was infamous for producing this infamous image of an asshole)


My inner editor know what's up and is on vacation. Shut up.
 
2021-09-28 4:28:48 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Baloo Uriza: The point is the Democrats when they have a trifecta could ram shiat through if they wanted to without asking for Republican permission.

You don't have to explain it: I get what it was trying to say, but it's also untrue. The last time Democrats had a supermajority it lasted for less than a year (it was during the 111th Congress). President Barack Obama called a special joint session of Congress to promote health care reform, which successfully passed.


Passing the Republican bill of making the broken system mandatory isn't exactly a success when the Democrat bill was single payer universal healthcare.
 
2021-09-28 4:30:20 PM  
America is only expensive when you are poor.

Democrats have a pretty good idea of what makes you not poor.

$400,000/year

From there on up, housing, health care and education become very manageable. Not to say you can't live comfortably on less, but that is where money is no longer an obstacle to much of anything.
 
2021-09-28 4:34:53 PM  

Rapmaster2000: SUMMERSN0WS: I asked about someone stuck in an abusive relationship who can't afford $1400 a month rent, and your answer was that *other* people are fine, as if ignoring the number of people that can't afford housing.

I'm sorry, but we're literally discussing the mathematics Umar used to prove that incomes are not high enough. He made an error.  The real number you use to deduct household expenses from is household income.  There is nothing more or less to it than that.  That some households are suboptimal is a problem in every nation, but it's not relevant to the numbers Umar is clumsily using to make a false point.

/Those who can't afford rent, AC, heat, internet, or food better than ramen noodles DGAF about statistics and math theories.

Those who attempt to understand and prescribe solutions to those problems DO GAF about using the correct numbers.  You can't solve a problem with bad data.  Umar can be upset about the cost of living if he would like, but if he wants to sit with the professionals and actually deal with problems, he's going to have to use the language of the professionals.  He's not.


So he's not wothwhile because he's a media communicator who's calling attention to a real problem of inequality on a global scale, and not in a think tank writing scientific papers about it no one will read? WTF?
 
2021-09-28 4:41:29 PM  

BeotchPudding: FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'


Well,...bye.
 
2021-09-28 4:43:48 PM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


Seriously!  Even his ISP numbers are high.  It's certainly not what you have to spend.  But utilities?  FFS, if you are paying that much you are doing it so wrong.

Then the rental number he's complaining about, $1200, is laughably low here in the Bay Area.  People here would be thrilled if it were that cheap.  My daughter is paying double that for a small 1br apartment that is somewhat near her work.
 
2021-09-28 4:45:13 PM  

Baloo Uriza: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Baloo Uriza: The point is the Democrats when they have a trifecta could ram shiat through if they wanted to without asking for Republican permission.

You don't have to explain it: I get what it was trying to say, but it's also untrue. The last time Democrats had a supermajority it lasted for less than a year (it was during the 111th Congress). President Barack Obama called a special joint session of Congress to promote health care reform, which successfully passed.

Passing the Republican bill of making the broken system mandatory isn't exactly a success when the Democrat bill was single payer universal healthcare.


As a reminder, here's the original claim:

Fark user imageView Full Size


I've provided that in the less than a year that Democrats had a supermajority, they reformed health care, fair pay, CHIP, credit card consumer protections, Wall Street reform, prison sentencing reform, and DADT repeal (this was all in the link I provided). Not stellar, but not bad for the all-Benghazi-all-the-time sh*tstorm and seventy ACA repeal attempts that would follow a few years later.

I happen to agree with you that I wish the Democrats had been bolder about health care reform, but I also realize the luxury of armchair quarterbacking.
 
2021-09-28 4:47:41 PM  

tansa: America is only expensive when you are poor.

Democrats have a pretty good idea of what makes you not poor.

$400,000/year

From there on up, housing, health care and education become very manageable. Not to say you can't live comfortably on less, but that is where money is no longer an obstacle to much of anything.


Democrats?  It was the GQP that declared $450,000 to be middle-class, an amount that puts people in the .5%.
 
2021-09-28 4:52:55 PM  

BeotchPudding: Unright: BeotchPudding: FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'

Because the U.S. is the greatest, best country God has ever given man on the face of the earth? Ok, Hannity.

It would be really awesome if the US swallowed some pride and learned from what other countries were doing well.

What Country spread Democracy around the world?


1) Random capitalization make you sound like an idiot.
2) Just because you think the US is "spreading democracy", it still doesn't mean that they are getting anything else right.
3) The US hasn't really spread democracy to the rest of the world. If a dictator is lining their pockets, then they'll support that dictator. When democracy is inconvenient, then the US tends to destabilize that government.
 
2021-09-28 5:02:08 PM  

tansa: America is only expensive when you are poor.

Democrats have a pretty good idea of what makes you not poor.

$400,000/year

From there on up, housing, health care and education become very manageable. Not to say you can't live comfortably on less, but that is where money is no longer an obstacle to much of anything.


Were you featured in this infographic several years ago?
si.wsj.netView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 5:07:32 PM  

akya: tansa: America is only expensive when you are poor.

Democrats have a pretty good idea of what makes you not poor.

$400,000/year

From there on up, housing, health care and education become very manageable. Not to say you can't live comfortably on less, but that is where money is no longer an obstacle to much of anything.

Were you featured in this infographic several years ago?
[si.wsj.net image 850x560]


FFS, can you imagine?  If was making $230,000 I'd feel like I won the goddamned Power Ball.
 
2021-09-28 5:16:03 PM  

RedVentrue: Rapmaster2000: SUMMERSN0WS: I asked about someone stuck in an abusive relationship who can't afford $1400 a month rent, and your answer was that *other* people are fine, as if ignoring the number of people that can't afford housing.

I'm sorry, but we're literally discussing the mathematics Umar used to prove that incomes are not high enough. He made an error.  The real number you use to deduct household expenses from is household income.  There is nothing more or less to it than that.  That some households are suboptimal is a problem in every nation, but it's not relevant to the numbers Umar is clumsily using to make a false point.

/Those who can't afford rent, AC, heat, internet, or food better than ramen noodles DGAF about statistics and math theories.

Those who attempt to understand and prescribe solutions to those problems DO GAF about using the correct numbers.  You can't solve a problem with bad data.  Umar can be upset about the cost of living if he would like, but if he wants to sit with the professionals and actually deal with problems, he's going to have to use the language of the professionals.  He's not.

So he's not wothwhile because he's a media communicator who's calling attention to a real problem of inequality on a global scale, and not in a think tank writing scientific papers about it no one will read? WTF?


He's not worthwhile because his points weren't relevant.  He's not worthwhile because he's a lazy thinker and writer.
 
2021-09-28 5:20:03 PM  

Smackledorfer: Even pretending Medicaid and Medicare were one entity, since they do not cover the entire population you can't really call that "single-payer" without completely failing to understand the word single.


Even if they were one entity, it wouldn't be single-payer in the context of "single-payer system" like the UK's NHS. My point was just that it's foolish to claim that there is not goverment sponsored health insurance in the USA. There is a ton.
 
2021-09-28 5:21:18 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Baloo Uriza: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Baloo Uriza: The point is the Democrats when they have a trifecta could ram shiat through if they wanted to without asking for Republican permission.

You don't have to explain it: I get what it was trying to say, but it's also untrue. The last time Democrats had a supermajority it lasted for less than a year (it was during the 111th Congress). President Barack Obama called a special joint session of Congress to promote health care reform, which successfully passed.

Passing the Republican bill of making the broken system mandatory isn't exactly a success when the Democrat bill was single payer universal healthcare.

As a reminder, here's the original claim:

[Fark user image 850x208]

I've provided that in the less than a year that Democrats had a supermajority, they reformed health care, fair pay, CHIP, credit card consumer protections, Wall Street reform, prison sentencing reform, and DADT repeal (this was all in the link I provided). Not stellar, but not bad for the all-Benghazi-all-the-time sh*tstorm and seventy ACA repeal attempts that would follow a few years later.

I happen to agree with you that I wish the Democrats had been bolder about health care reform, but I also realize the luxury of armchair quarterbacking.


Either way, the fact that the GQP stomps a mudhole in America and the Democrats just farking roll over every time it's their turn to fight for America is embarrassing.  The American Taliban isn't farking around, and the Democrats are asking for permission and going for bipartisanship.  Nobody wants that, they want the GQP steamrolled.
 
2021-09-28 5:24:55 PM  
Americans are so isolated from the rest of the world that propaganda works perfectly on them.  They literally have nothing to compare it to.  They are utterly clueless.
 
2021-09-28 5:37:16 PM  

vrax: FFS, can you imagine?  If was making $230,000 I'd feel like I won the goddamned Power Ball.


It sounds like a lot until you make it.
 
2021-09-28 5:39:23 PM  

Smackledorfer: Father_Jack: That being said, i live in germany, and i can agree with much of what he's saying:

Father_Jack: i guess i'm advocating that americans should learn a foreign language and leave for somewhere in western europe. There are plenty of jobs here, come get one.

I figured I'd remind Father_Jack of his own words, lest he continue trying to claim he wasn't proposing "move to europe" as a solution to the struggling wage slaves TFA is talking about.

And he's gone from "just learn a language and come on over!" to "oh, and yes you need to have an in-demand skillset that requires an education, multiple years of navigating immigration, etc"

Telling the guy making 35,000 dollars in wage slavery in the US he should just spend a few years getting a skill that is in-demand in France and learning French and then spend a couple more years navigating their system and finding the company who wants to hire him is terrible farking advice.

It's perfectly fine advice for the guy making 170,000 dollars who already has a skillset that is in demand though. But something tells me the author isn't that concerned about them.


Man. Why so triggered bro

You asked how I did/how it was done, I told you my experience and those I've known. Sone were wealthy many were not, some were middle aged like me others were kids who wanted to travel who teach art lessons to kids. Or were career enlisted who came over here when their service ended. They were neither rich not educated, and made it work. Or,probably the biggest expat group, people who marry into it and have to start from scratch. But its all shenanigans evidently.

Somehow you came up w this 35k a year poor and advising them so I guess that's you being angry or something ? Who knows but not sure why you brought it up

Anyway, sorry I pushed your buttons, you don't normally seem to be such an asshole nor do I think what I said deserved your rudeness.
 
2021-09-28 5:45:42 PM  

Father_Jack: You asked how I did/how it was done,


I've explained how it actually works, and doesn't work, and presented numbers.

You've gone "bunches can do it, jobs are there, tfa is article, flee America" which is dumb.

There's no triggering here, just me giving you the chance to not be stupid, and you doubling down.

I'm sure your advice will come in handy for the fraction of a percent of EU visas that go to American workers though.

"Get skills"

Ok, thanks.
 
2021-09-28 5:47:05 PM  

Father_Jack: Somehow you came up w this 35k a year poor


So you dnrtfa, despite claiming you supported the author's argument?

Because the author came up with that number. That number is what this thread is about: whether Americans are wage slaves being robbed by the system, and what to do to solve it.
 
2021-09-28 5:55:42 PM  

Father_Jack: But its all shenanigans evidently.


Forgive the multiple replies, but mobile fark isn't friendly.

Yes, it IS shenanigans, as I already explained when pointing out the numbers involved in German work visas. That you've surrounded yourself with expats is meaningless. It isn't about you. It isn't about me, either.

There are 350,000,000 Americans. If america sucks compared to Germany, that's fine. I believe it. Germany will take in less than 1/100th of 1% of Americans every year. And of those, most will be high skilled.

And that's the biggest economy of the EU. You presented advice, in response on the author's grandiose nonsense that america sucks, that will help no one who needs it. If telling you how shiatty that advice is makes you think I'm triggered or whatever other catchy buzzphrase you want to use to shift this discussion to personal discussions about me instead of discussing the facts, well... That's pathetic of you.

America has a shiatload of problems. Fleeing to EU solves them for essentially nobody.
 
2021-09-28 5:57:18 PM  
Ok. So bouncing between asking me what I'm saying and referencing the article. The phrase "wir reden an einander vorbei" comes to mind here. Attempting to clarify = doubling down? K. Anyways too many replies to make sense of it at this point and it's late here.still don't get why you felt the need to be such a dick at expressing what are probably legit opinions.

Thanks for the chat.
 
2021-09-28 6:09:14 PM  

Father_Jack: Ok. So bouncing between asking me what I'm saying and referencing the article.


I referenced the article because your OP referenced the article and you literally just asked me where I got 35,000 from.

This is ridiculous.
 
2021-09-28 6:23:47 PM  
Capitalism is one huge pyramid scheme.
/offer not limited to America
 
2021-09-28 6:24:04 PM  

Subtonic: reyreyrey: Subtonic: It's too early to hear from some smug euro smelling their own farts.

"And what I get in America is way, way worse. At least half of the junk on TV is ads, I don't get the wonderful and illuminating and sparkling stuff that European TV makes on a regular basis, from good coverage of global affairs to politics to economics to ground-breaking shows and movies."

Wow, surprised they didn't claim that they don't even own a TV.

I didn't read anything inaccurate, but I know some Americans just love our nightly sound bite news and our Hot Bench Judge Judy Mathis Divorce Court shows with boner pill and skin problem commercials.

There are dullards everywhere. There is tons of garbage on euro TV. It's not a uniquely American problem. And bagging on our worst television (ignoring some of the truly great stuff out there) when there are so many other problems just smacks of douchebaggery. But I guess we're all tired of hearing about racism, guns, and healthcare and he needs those clicks.


The sad truth is that although there is a lot of excellent programming here, the majority of it is only available through some sort of SVOD. And even much of that couldn't even be considered "American" aside from which behemoth distributor picks it up.
 
2021-09-28 6:28:45 PM  

Boojum2k: I've recently moved to the States - shudder - for a year or two.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


I hear Venezuela is looking for good people.
 
2021-09-28 6:28:59 PM  

Rapmaster2000: RedVentrue: Rapmaster2000: SUMMERSN0WS: I asked about someone stuck in an abusive relationship who can't afford $1400 a month rent, and your answer was that *other* people are fine, as if ignoring the number of people that can't afford housing.

I'm sorry, but we're literally discussing the mathematics Umar used to prove that incomes are not high enough. He made an error.  The real number you use to deduct household expenses from is household income.  There is nothing more or less to it than that.  That some households are suboptimal is a problem in every nation, but it's not relevant to the numbers Umar is clumsily using to make a false point.

/Those who can't afford rent, AC, heat, internet, or food better than ramen noodles DGAF about statistics and math theories.

Those who attempt to understand and prescribe solutions to those problems DO GAF about using the correct numbers.  You can't solve a problem with bad data.  Umar can be upset about the cost of living if he would like, but if he wants to sit with the professionals and actually deal with problems, he's going to have to use the language of the professionals.  He's not.

So he's not wothwhile because he's a media communicator who's calling attention to a real problem of inequality on a global scale, and not in a think tank writing scientific papers about it no one will read? WTF?

He's not worthwhile because his points weren't relevant.  He's not worthwhile because he's a lazy thinker and writer.


His points are valid and your agument is bullshiat.
 
2021-09-28 6:32:35 PM  

Avigdore: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

What is the 'heating' expense if not electricity or gas?


Fuel oil or city steam radiators. Well, and wood stoves I guess.
 
2021-09-28 6:34:55 PM  

No Catchy Nickname: Without rejecting his argument, I'd still like to see more specific data comparing US and European costs. I mean, I doubt utility costs and tax rates across Europe are the same for one thing, and I'd like to see more breakdown of the costs of other goods, bearing in mind sales tax/VAT in the EU zone is 20% or more.


I lived in England for about 15 months. Everything was smaller and more expensive. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

We do need get over our car addiction for sure though.
 
2021-09-28 6:36:24 PM  
To summarize, I always say

"Sucks to be USA".


If they make the UK the 51st state (queue jumping over Puerto Rico, Washington DC and Canada-Mexico, then we can call the new country: USUK and say "Sucks to be USUK".

I am really looking forward to using that joke a lot but not looking forward to the future of the economy, society, politicks, or anything that forwards or realizes my jest. I am not that cruel that I would applaud the aims of millions of conserrvative suckers and farkers.
 
2021-09-28 6:39:31 PM  

Persnickety: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

"Arbeit Macht Frei" is quite obviously far from being an American-only sentiment.  The most memorable and pitiful character in Englishman George Orwell's Animal Farm is Boxer the horse whose mantra and life philosophy was "I will work harder."  And then there's The Protestant Work Ethic espoused by Europeans like Martin Luther and Calvinists.  As with many things, America didn't invent this (although we think we did), we just scaled it up due to our nation's unusually large size and media domination.


I'm not sure if you are arguing for or against the concept, or just making observations. I personally sit in the camp of "if you want nice things you have to work for them". But I also believe we need to provide the bare minimum, and we are certainly lacking there.
 
2021-09-28 6:42:51 PM  

princhester: As others have pointed out, even while the conclusion of that article may have some validity, the facts and reasoning are crap.

So Wall St makes huge amounts out of extending credit that people can't repay?   How does that work exactly?


They probably make most of their money on transaction fees. They arbitrate risk with interest rates. That's why if you have great credit, you get huge credit lines with low interest. If you have shiatty credit, you get tiny credit lines with huge interest. It's really the whales that make them interest money and transaction fees. They have no problem taking a tax write down for 5 grand a couple ten thousand times a year.
 
2021-09-28 6:43:34 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Baloo Uriza: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Baloo Uriza: The point is the Democrats when they have a trifecta could ram shiat through if they wanted to without asking for Republican permission.

You don't have to explain it: I get what it was trying to say, but it's also untrue. The last time Democrats had a supermajority it lasted for less than a year (it was during the 111th Congress). President Barack Obama called a special joint session of Congress to promote health care reform, which successfully passed.

Passing the Republican bill of making the broken system mandatory isn't exactly a success when the Democrat bill was single payer universal healthcare.

As a reminder, here's the original claim:

[Fark user image image 850x208]

I've provided that in the less than a year that Democrats had a supermajority, they reformed health care, fair pay, CHIP, credit card consumer protections, Wall Street reform, prison sentencing reform, and DADT repeal (this was all in the link I provided). Not stellar, but not bad for the all-Benghazi-all-the-time sh*tstorm and seventy ACA repeal attempts that would follow a few years later.

I happen to agree with you that I wish the Democrats had been bolder about health care reform, but I also realize the luxury of armchair quarterbacking.


DADT was dead after the Log Cabin Republicans won in court challenging it. The Dems in Congress should have followed up by repealing DOMA, but instead decided to shoot DADTs corpse.
Fark user imageView Full Size


Not disputing the rest of your list, but the Dems and Obama's reactions to both DADT and DOMA repeal were very contradictory and suggested the party was more interested in keeping those policies as carrots and sticks for LGBT voters than in actually repealing them through legislation.
 
2021-09-28 6:45:54 PM  

rainbowbutter: Elandriel: This writersure does love his italics!

he seems..a bit STRIDENT...
but wait for it:
just like an infomercialthis went ON TOO LONG, with too much DRAMA!
BUT YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT
how could you know?
it's HARD to hear SOMEONE WHO IS SHOUTING, even whenwhat they say
is CORRECT

the style undermines the message- just sayin


This post made my eyes hurt. Well done.
 
2021-09-28 6:47:31 PM  

Boojum2k: Not disputing the rest of your list, but the Dems and Obama's reactions to both DADT and DOMA repeal were very contradictory and suggested the party was more interested in keeping those policies as carrots and sticks for LGBT voters than in actually repealing them through legislation.


Which is probably what caused Bishop to go forward with Bishop v. Oklahoma, later Bishop v United States.  Proud to say that case came out of this city.  Tulsa Pride was lit as fark in '15.
 
2021-09-28 6:49:46 PM  

akya: God-is-a-Taco: Oh, it's this guy again. His particular brand of outrage porn is particularly unpalatable to me, but I have to admire his tenacity in writing a new article every few days to get those shock clicks.

[Fark user image 684x1080]

Yep.  This guy is a pizza cutter.  All edge and no point or viable solution.   Not even a "We should try to improve society somewhat".

Just AMERICA SUX, LOL! so you should RUN AWAY FROM YOUR PROBLEMS! THE GRASS IN EUROPE IS EXCEPTIONALLY GREEN!

Personally I'd rather stick around and try to improve society in whatever small way I can.


It's a noble endeavor. But as a wise man once said:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 6:53:11 PM  

Lochaber_Axe: Subtonic: It's too early to hear from some smug euro smelling their own farts.

"And what I get in America is way, way worse. At least half of the junk on TV is ads, I don't get the wonderful and illuminating and sparkling stuff that European TV makes on a regular basis, from good coverage of global affairs to politics to economics to ground-breaking shows and movies."

Wow, surprised they didn't claim that they don't even own a TV.

The times I have been in Europe (Germany, Poland, France, does Belarus count?) I thought the TV was horrible.  The shows were vapid and cheesy and most just tried to copy what America was doing.  They showed all the weird sports, strange music videos (a tough looking German guy singing a song called "Gangsta Rap" is one example) and lots of other just boring stuff. Maybe he's right about the news though but I didn't watch much of that.


The porn is pretty good, or so I've heard.
 
2021-09-28 6:54:23 PM  

Avigdore: TheDreadChefRoberts: harleyquinnical: Tr0mBoNe: Most Americans:
[Fark user image image 850x637]

Easy to get by the taste when it's the only taste most of us have ever known

This is my argument about American cheese.

To me it tastes like plastic, I grew up eating all sorts of processed cheese in plastic sheet form, in a brick, and from a jar.

At 15 I decided to stop eating processed cheese but it's all over the place. I managed to go about 6 months before

I was in a situation where it was offered to me on a sandwich, so I politely ate the food but the American cheese tasted strongly of plastic and was no longer enjoyable.

Give your tastebuds and the rest of your body a break from processed cheese and you will taste the difference.

Thank me next year!! Good luck it is worth escaping the fast food cycle of self loathing and unsatisfying meals.

But American Cheese (Kraft Premium makes some). Avoid 'American Cheese Food' that's the processed stuff you're not wanting.


Anyone else remember 'gubmint' cheese?
/Yeah, I was pretty poor growing up.
 
2021-09-28 6:55:37 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: GORDON: Nearly everything in that list is directly due to the government protectionism of the various industries.  And it isn't just a "republican-thing," as has been suggested.  Nothing get fixed by the Democrats, when they're in charge, either.

That's ludicrously untrue. Last time the Democrats were in charge they tried to fix healthcare.  The howling obstructionism from Republicans was deafening.

Get the hell out of here with your BSAB.


ACA worked out swimmingly.
 
2021-09-28 6:58:56 PM  

Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.


That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.
 
2021-09-28 6:59:59 PM  

Fano: TwilightZone: I've read a lot of criticisms of America by non-Americans that are really silly -- like New York city dwellers can't grow their own food (because NYC is the place to live if you want to grow your own food).  But this one is totally spot on, from top to bottom, start to finish.  Should be required reading in all high schools (before the kids pile on a bunch of student debt) but it won't.  Young farkers  -- take note!  Spread this to all your friends.

This one does hit a lot of the right notes. It IS better than 90% of the British ones that always boil down to "you Yanks don't do it all sensible like back 'home, eh?"


Brits aren't much better off.
 
2021-09-28 7:02:28 PM  

valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.


Nothing like suffering anyway no matter how hard you try!  Seriously, we need to raise the poverty floor in this country because it's third-world right now.
 
2021-09-28 7:02:52 PM  

Natalie Portmanteau: Hey Nurse!: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

I was wondering that. I live in St. Louis.  Water is 60, electricity is 200, gas is 140 - that's budget billing numbers. And that's in a 4800 sq ft house with 7 people living in it. Of course, the author also stated the average income is 35,000, but then proceeded to use that number as an example of what families pay. Most families don't have a single income. There's a lot of cherry picking going on in that article. The solution is simple. If you don't like it here, get the fark out.

Despite the article writer being a douche, and using bad math, they have a point about utility monopolies.


You know, I'll say this is a bit of a misconception. I mean, yes, there pretty much is a single utility provider, basically everywhere. But it is a pseudo kind of thing. There is also a government panel (at least everywhere I am familiar with) called a public utilities commission. They PUC sets standards and regulates pricing and what in industry lingo are called tariffs.

Of course, this configuration has unlimited opportunity for corruption.
 
2021-09-28 7:06:34 PM  

Unright: BeotchPudding: FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'

Because the U.S. is the greatest, best country God has ever given man on the face of the earth? Ok, Hannity.

It would be really awesome if the US swallowed some pride and learned from what other countries were doing well.


Yes, it is. And I don't mean that in a magat way. It's not perfect (I mean, see Texas and florida). Go on a sabbatical and find your own utopia.
 
2021-09-28 7:10:19 PM  

Father_Jack: Unright: BeotchPudding: FARK : 'It's not News, it's communist/socialist talking points'

Because the U.S. is the greatest, best country God has ever given man on the face of the earth? Ok, Hannity.

It would be really awesome if the US swallowed some pride and learned from what other countries were doing well.

but why do you hate us though?


Doing well? Ha. Paris climate accord? Hey, let's retire all nuclear reactors. That's farking a great idea. Stop sniffing your own asshole. No place farts roses.
 
2021-09-28 7:12:37 PM  

big pig peaches: He must be living in a shack with leaky pipes and no insulation if he's paying that much in utilities.

He's right about cable / internet, but there a counterpoint. Gasoline. That shiat is ridiculous in Europe.


Hehe, our price per gallon is like their price per liter (litre?)
 
2021-09-28 7:17:25 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: big pig peaches: We're also the only country where hundreds of thousands of people can just walk across the border.

Serious question: Are you a Fox News watcher?

Because there's no part of that sentence that's even remotely true but I know they've been pushing that narrative pretty hard.


Actually, it's something like 200 thousand a year, but I really don't want to get into an immigration debate.
 
2021-09-28 7:18:47 PM  

big pig peaches: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: big pig peaches: We're also the only country where hundreds of thousands of people can just walk across the border.

Serious question: Are you a Fox News watcher?

Because there's no part of that sentence that's even remotely true but I know they've been pushing that narrative pretty hard.

There aren't millions of illegal immigrants in the US.

Man, I was wrong about Biden.


Estimates out the number around 12 million.
 
2021-09-28 7:21:10 PM  

valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.


The puritan work ethic is a much more encompassing ideology than work hard and be rewarded. It also promotes the idea that people who are not slavishly enriching their "betters" are lazy, sinful, idiots.
 
2021-09-28 7:25:16 PM  

DerAppie: princhester: So Wall St makes huge amounts out of extending credit that people can't repay?   How does that work exactly?

Simple.
Say I loan you $100 and you need to pay me back 12 a month for a year. You lose your job/have some extra expenses or whatever and miss two payments. Now you owe me another $50 in fines and "administration cost". But since you can't afford to pay me more than that $12 a month, I'll graciously allow you to keep paying that amount. I'll just extend the term of the loan.

Now instead of repaying me $120, you'll be repaying me $300 because of the extra $50 I charged you, and the extra interest payments.

It becomes even more fun with creditcards where the minimum payment only covers interest. I can keep getting money from that principal I lend you for decades, and at up to 29% a year at that!


Yeah... Congress actually passed laws addressing this line 15 years ago.
 
2021-09-28 7:26:46 PM  

valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.



Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-28 7:28:51 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: justanotherfarkinfarker: I think I pay $9,000 a year for "good" insurance (yet if something happens I'll still be on the hook, even small like a broken arm will probably cost me $300 out of pocket and that's if I don't have to get a $4000 ambulance ride. On just me, that's not a family.

And that's cheap. Average cost for employer-funded health insurance premiums are approximately $20,000/year

Most people don't realize they're paying that much since it's a fringe benefit from your employer. It's like an enormous hidden tax.


That seems high. Not by too much, but I think my employer pays about 600 or so per month for really good insurance. That's still in the ballpark though.
 
2021-09-28 7:32:58 PM  

tekmo: King Keepo: Paying sales tax at point of sale is infuriating

Particularly infuriating when you have to pay a sales tax to turn something into your property, then another constantly climbing annual tax to just continue to own that property, unless you're a religious establishment, in which case you are free to avail yourself of ALL the benefits those taxes provide without paying a goddam dime towards making them available, even if you're fabulously wealthy.

Governments enacting laws that provide religious establishments with uniquely beneficial tax treatment is precisely the thing that is specifically prohibited by the First Amendment.

Until the Supreme Court decided "establishment" is akshully...a goddam verb.

No. It isn't.

An "establishment of religion" = religious establishment (a broad term encompassing all manner of churches, temples, mosques, etc.)

Any sensible court would know this. But, well...'murica --where the dumbest conceivable interpretation is the starting point.


That's why I bought a million dollar mansion on the beach and declared it a church.

/Ok, no I didn't
//Maybe not a bad idea
 
2021-09-28 7:39:17 PM  

cryinoutloud: Didnt know it?  I've always known it....and so I live my life in a way that won't  use so many services that aren't necessary.  And then you buy second-hand, buy used cars, just don't pay for that shiat.  Life gets much cheaper.

Now you guys:  You pay for it.  All the optional stuff, as well as the necessities.  You not only PAY for it, you keep asking for more of it, for more choices, for more kinds of services, for more convenient services, for more, more, more.  Consumer spending in the US is the highest on the planet, and the younger the generation, the more they spend on bullshiat.  They're trained--much better trained than I ever was.  Because i blew it off and lived in the country.  It didn't get to me so much.
But most of you?  You're farking doomed.  And you PAY for it.  Willingly.  Gladly.  Get all snobby about it--how  much optional money you spend on things, because that makes you a better person than I am.  Bragging about your loss of control over your spending habits, like this is  some virtue of modern America life that I somehow missed out on.

You know why it costs more to live in America than anywhere else?  because you will farking pay for it.You're willing victims who keep going back for more.  You MADE this farking world, with all your money, all your piggery, all your treating the whole world like some kind of Disneyland that was put here only for you to trash.  That's why we don't look like other countries--they were not only protected from this nonsense by governments that actually give a fark about their citizens, they just don't believe in it as much.  (Unless you count South Korea or japan, and look what is happening to those poor people.  This is what you want?)    You were raised on it, and you not only believe in it, it's pretty much your reason for living.  ADVERTISING WORKS

so keep on paying your way, and make sure you get your money's worth out of all those trips, all those nights out, all those Uber rides, all that fancy food, all those trips to get your dog groomed while you have your nails done.  This is all your fault.

Yes, I do have all kinds of numbers to back this up.  I've posted them before.  You know I have them.


I bet you're fun at parties.
 
2021-09-28 7:40:47 PM  

Smackledorfer: Tldr: you aren't just saying it can be done. You are saying it is a solution advisable to wage slaves.


Maybe someone can sponsor them to come in and work a shiatty wage until the debt is paid off.
 
2021-09-28 7:50:47 PM  

Baloo Uriza: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Baloo Uriza: The point is the Democrats when they have a trifecta could ram shiat through if they wanted to without asking for Republican permission.

You don't have to explain it: I get what it was trying to say, but it's also untrue. The last time Democrats had a supermajority it lasted for less than a year (it was during the 111th Congress). President Barack Obama called a special joint session of Congress to promote health care reform, which successfully passed.

Passing the Republican bill of making the broken system mandatory isn't exactly a success when the Democrat bill was single payer universal healthcare.


Yep, ACA is a giant piece of shiat. Thanks American politics!
 
2021-09-28 8:03:23 PM  

Baloo Uriza: valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.

Nothing like suffering anyway no matter how hard you try!  Seriously, we need to raise the poverty floor in this country because it's third-world right now.


I don't really disagree, but to me, there is a weird sense of value that attach to a person's contributions.

Call me shiatty, fine. But it's to me the same as talking about antivaxxers.

I'm all in to support folks doing their part, but I'm not ready to go to bat for folks that want to go full stupid.
 
2021-09-28 8:06:07 PM  

Natalie Portmanteau: valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.

The puritan work ethic is a much more encompassing ideology than work hard and be rewarded. It also promotes the idea that people who are not slavishly enriching their "betters" are lazy, sinful, idiots.


If you just want to sit on your ass, why should anyone else raise a finger?
 
2021-09-28 8:07:57 PM  

Gin Buddy: valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.


[Fark user image image 750x685]


If you choose to put in minimal effort, you're gonna get minimal pay.
 
2021-09-28 8:17:09 PM  

valenumr: That's why I bought a million dollar mansion on the beach and declared it a church.


That's not entirely unlike how Victory Christian and ORU got started, TBF.
 
2021-09-28 8:18:24 PM  

valenumr: Baloo Uriza: valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.

Nothing like suffering anyway no matter how hard you try!  Seriously, we need to raise the poverty floor in this country because it's third-world right now.

I don't really disagree, but to me, there is a weird sense of value that attach to a person's contributions.

Call me shiatty, fine. But it's to me the same as talking about antivaxxers.

I'm all in to support folks doing their part, but I'm not ready to go to bat for folks that want to go full stupid.


I'd rather do that than let someone who is making an effort slip through the cracks.
 
2021-09-28 8:31:58 PM  

valenumr: Gin Buddy: valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.


[Fark user image image 750x685]

If you choose to put in minimal effort, you're gonna get minimal pay.


The problem is that you have that backwards. People get hired and get a salary up front. If they work for a cheap employer who doesn't pay anybody a decent salary, that employer is going to get shiatty workers.
 
2021-09-28 8:38:20 PM  

valenumr: Smackledorfer: Tldr: you aren't just saying it can be done. You are saying it is a solution advisable to wage slaves.

Maybe someone can sponsor them to come in and work a shiatty wage until the debt is paid off.


I don't know what this means.

Wage slavery doesn't require a debt, just a balance of zero.

And the EU isn't going to go out of their way to aid folks making 35k in the US when billions live on ten bucks or less a days. As well they shouldn't. America doesn't suck so bad that we deserve immigration slots in the EU.
 
2021-09-28 9:00:13 PM  

Smackledorfer: valenumr: Smackledorfer: Tldr: you aren't just saying it can be done. You are saying it is a solution advisable to wage slaves.

Maybe someone can sponsor them to come in and work a shiatty wage until the debt is paid off.

I don't know what this means.

Wage slavery doesn't require a debt, just a balance of zero.

And the EU isn't going to go out of their way to aid folks making 35k in the US when billions live on ten bucks or less a days. As well they shouldn't. America doesn't suck so bad that we deserve immigration slots in the EU.


I was being snarky. Sorry if trolly.
 
2021-09-28 9:01:58 PM  

Butternut Squanch: starsrift: It's called serfdom. Very old concept. Still works! Just have to hide it behind a few layers.

Sounds like slavery with extra steps.


Heh, yeah. You have the freedom to work for a different boss and even live in a different place if they allow you to afford it, though.
 
2021-09-28 9:02:52 PM  

Gin Buddy: valenumr: Gin Buddy: valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.


[Fark user image image 750x685]

If you choose to put in minimal effort, you're gonna get minimal pay.

The problem is that you have that backwards. People get hired and get a salary up front. If they work for a cheap employer who doesn't pay anybody a decent salary, that employer is going to get shiatty workers.


At the end of the day, unproductive employees get released.
 
2021-09-28 9:08:43 PM  

valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.

The puritan work ethic is a much more encompassing ideology than work hard and be rewarded. It also promotes the idea that people who are not slavishly enriching their "betters" are lazy, sinful, idiots.

If you just want to sit on your ass, why should anyone else raise a finger?


And, you are aware those aren't the only two options, yes?
 
2021-09-28 9:10:20 PM  

valenumr: Gin Buddy: valenumr: Gin Buddy: valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.


[Fark user image image 750x685]

If you choose to put in minimal effort, you're gonna get minimal pay.

The problem is that you have that backwards. People get hired and get a salary up front. If they work for a cheap employer who doesn't pay anybody a decent salary, that employer is going to get shiatty workers.

At the end of the day, unproductive employees get released.


Weird.  Senator Lankford still has a job.
 
2021-09-28 9:52:17 PM  

valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.


Grasshopper.
Didn't do shiat all year, then got to ride out the winter crashing on the Ant's couch.
 
2021-09-28 10:08:54 PM  

valenumr: Smackledorfer: valenumr: Smackledorfer: Tldr: you aren't just saying it can be done. You are saying it is a solution advisable to wage slaves.

Maybe someone can sponsor them to come in and work a shiatty wage until the debt is paid off.

I don't know what this means.

Wage slavery doesn't require a debt, just a balance of zero.

And the EU isn't going to go out of their way to aid folks making 35k in the US when billions live on ten bucks or less a days. As well they shouldn't. America doesn't suck so bad that we deserve immigration slots in the EU.

I was being snarky. Sorry if trolly.


My bad.
 
2021-09-28 10:27:46 PM  

Magnanimous_J: vrax: FFS, can you imagine?  If was making $230,000 I'd feel like I won the goddamned Power Ball.

It sounds like a lot until you make it.


Yeah, that's what Jeff Bezos says, too.
 
2021-09-28 10:53:09 PM  

NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?


I'm in big bend Texas. Gas doubled in February. It's now $350/month for just enough to heat two rooms in a trailer that costs $1600/month.
But at least electric is only $150 on top of that.

Meanwhile, to buy said trailer is $250k. No land except 0.3 acres.

This is Trump territory. But the local dems are pretty clueless as well.

I'm leaving soon. It's a cess pit. A beautiful cess pit.
 
2021-09-28 11:56:27 PM  

madgonad: No Catchy Nickname: Without rejecting his argument, I'd still like to see more specific data comparing US and European costs. I mean, I doubt utility costs and tax rates across Europe are the same for one thing, and I'd like to see more breakdown of the costs of other goods, bearing in mind sales tax/VAT in the EU zone is 20% or more.

Costs for electricity, natural gas, and water are about the same. Localization within countries are far more important. A Kwh of electricity costs a whole bunch more in California than is does in Montana.

Home ownership rates are similar, but houses/flats in Europe are MUCH smaller than in the US.

TV is all over the map. There is free OTA TV in the US, but parts of Europe require a license to receive broadcast services. Generally pay-TV is cheaper in Europe, but there are a lot fewer channels.

Wireless communications and internet in general is quite a bit cheaper in Europe. They have the density to make wireless a lot cheaper and heaps of regulation for internet pricing.

Public college/university is cheaper, but private is not. My niece graduated from the University of St Andrews in Scotland - OMG that was expensive.

We all buy the same garbage from Asia. The Europeans actually pay a bit more for the same garbage even before VAT.

Europeans don't accumulate 'stuff' like Americans do. You know all those self-storage businesses in the US? Yeah, that isn't really a thing. Americans waste a lot more money buying new things and then pay money to store the old things that they don't use but don't want to get rid of.


I mean, I went to a state university in NY from a neighboring state for $8000 a year in the year 2000.  It is now 27,000 a year.  And it wasn't a great school.
 
2021-09-28 11:58:30 PM  

Baloo Uriza: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Baloo Uriza: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Last time the Democrats were in charge they tried to fix healthcare.  The howling obstructionism from Republicans was deafening.

What that actually looked like:
[Fark user image 850x448]

Thank you. It's hard to imagine something dumber than a Ben Garrison cartoon and the visualization here is a real help.

The point is the Democrats when they have a trifecta could ram shiat through if they wanted to without asking for Republican permission.  The problem is, they don't.


The last time they had a supermajority was for a period of 2 months with Obama.
 
2021-09-29 1:59:13 AM  

Gin Buddy: valenumr: Gin Buddy: valenumr: Natalie Portmanteau: WhackingDay: I also think that a lot of this stems from our origins as fundamentalists that believe struggle and suffering builds character or makes you closer to god or some garbage. You still see this in a lot of people who repeat a mantra of "work hard" all the time. Europeans have long understood that life is more than work, but Americans cannot come to grips with that, at least as a society.

Yep. The "puritan work ethic" is a big part of the reason America is a capitalist dystopia.

That's a bit of a lazy argument. I view it more as a matter of reward for productivity. If you don't want to do anything, what do you expect? I don't recall any fairy tail where someone gets rewarded for sitting on their ass.


[Fark user image image 750x685]

If you choose to put in minimal effort, you're gonna get minimal pay.

The problem is that you have that backwards. People get hired and get a salary up front. If they work for a cheap employer who doesn't pay anybody a decent salary, that employer is going to get shiatty workers.


Hehe, that's true. I guess if you're going to offer minimum pay, you're gonna get minimum effort.

That works too.
 
2021-09-29 2:33:46 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Merltech: NotCodger: "Heating, electricity, gas, water? These things caneasily add up to $500 to $1000 dollars per month."

Where the fark is he living?

Texas.

I live in Texas (and specifically Austin, which has a pretty high cost of living compared to the rest of the state) and my total cost for those combined is around $200 per month.


except for the couple of days when it cost $9,000 dollars and you have to join a class action suit
/Griddy much?
 
2021-09-29 2:59:29 PM  
Here in California, electricity and gas run me under $50 every month even during the hottest part of the year.  They're under $30 the rest of the year.

My utility bills were much, much higher in Texas.  COL isn't some straightforward multiplier for everything.

As I own a house in California, my cost of living is actually quite a bit cheaper than what I'd have most other places in the U.S.

Television costs me under $15 per month because I'm not dumb enough to subscribe to more than one streaming service at a time.

Healthcare is the biggest drag, though.  Health insurance costs considerably less literally everywhere else in the world, and there are plenty of places where you don't even need insurance.

The thing is, as long as I'm working, I'm getting paid more in California than I would doing the same job in, for example, most of Europe.  I'll stick with that for now.  I'll over-pay for healthcare until I retire, and then I'll go someplace where it's cheap.

The trade-off of going somewhere with cheap healthcare is usually little more than not hearing English spoken everywhere anymore.  There's a reason so many Americans retire in Panama, Spain, and Thailand.  There are plenty of places that are both nice and cheap.
 
Displayed 294 of 294 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking




On Twitter


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.