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(Vox)   Biden can singlehandedly vaccinate the government against the debt ceiling virus   (vox.com) divider line
    More: Spiffy, United States Senate, Barack Obama, United States Congress, debt ceiling, Bill Clinton, Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974, President of the United States, Democratic Party  
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3202 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Sep 2021 at 7:02 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-09-27 3:32:38 PM  
Sue Congress claiming the debt ceiling is unconstitutional under the 14th amendment.

Hey, at this point it couldn't hurt.
 
2021-09-27 3:54:51 PM  
Again with the f*cking trillion dollar coin...
 
2021-09-27 4:55:16 PM  
We're doing the Obama coin thing again? Sweet!

I'm sure it will work this time!
 
2021-09-27 7:05:21 PM  
Oh hey look, it's this trillion dollar coin fallacy being bandied around as fact again. Neat!
 
2021-09-27 7:06:20 PM  
Why won't Biden wave his magic wand, consequences be damned?
 
2021-09-27 7:06:58 PM  
I prefer my fantasy novels with less tropes and more magic.
 
2021-09-27 7:07:09 PM  
Section 4 of the 14th Amendment seems awfully persuasive.

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."

I can't say it locks it down, but it's hard to argue that one party can just dig in their heels and refuse to pay an incurred debt in light of it.
 
2021-09-27 7:07:55 PM  

JolobinSmokin: I prefer my fantasy novels with less tropes and more magic.


Still better than lord of the rings.
 
2021-09-27 7:08:33 PM  
Senate just destroyed the US economy.  Gop out of malice, dems out of cowardice.
 
2021-09-27 7:08:35 PM  
So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.
 
2021-09-27 7:09:17 PM  

danvon: Section 4 of the 14th Amendment seems awfully persuasive.

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."

I can't say it locks it down, but it's hard to argue that one party can just dig in their heels and refuse to pay an incurred debt in light of it.


Yet they just did.
 
2021-09-27 7:09:55 PM  

Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.


Screen name matches up.
 
2021-09-27 7:10:14 PM  
Let's stop talking about it and just ...

i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2021-09-27 7:11:07 PM  

Secret Troll Alt: Oh hey look, it's this trillion dollar coin fallacy being bandied around as fact again. Neat!


At least this one doesn't get into the idiotic angle of "What would a coin with an actual metal value of $1T look like? Well, first it would weight this many tons of solid platinum..."

And then they'd all end with "But of course they wouldn't actually have to be like that, they could just mint it and say it's worth that much."

/And of course the comments were all "ROFL, OBUMMER IS SO DUMB FOR WANTING TO MAKE SUCH A HUGE KOIN!"
 
2021-09-27 7:11:43 PM  

Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.


If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?
 
2021-09-27 7:11:52 PM  
Biden won't do a thing. They'll play their stupid game of "we'll default on our debt, we really will this time if you don't give us what we want!!" and it'll be the same song and dance. Why? Because the democrats are too scared to make substantive changes, even if it wouldn't hurt them and even if it would solve all these stupid problems.

Before anyone says I'm a democrat hater, no, I'm not. Republicans are useless at best and destructive at worse. There's no hope for those fascists at all. I'm on the democrats side but for christ's sake they are a cowardly, meandering, meek lot sometimes.
 
2021-09-27 7:12:54 PM  

Subtonic: JolobinSmokin: I prefer my fantasy novels with less tropes and more magic.

Still better than lord of the rings.


Don't make me start singing a song in Sindarin (the Tolkien Elvish dialect that everyone is most familiar with)...I'll do it, M8! I swear on me mum!

/ I've been through everything, including the appendices, 8 times.
 
2021-09-27 7:13:36 PM  

Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?


Send McConnell to a debtors prison?
 
2021-09-27 7:13:55 PM  

Moose out front: Biden won't do a thing. They'll play their stupid game of "we'll default on our debt, we really will this time if you don't give us what we want!!" and it'll be the same song and dance. Why? Because the democrats are too scared to make substantive changes, even if it wouldn't hurt them and even if it would solve all these stupid problems.

Before anyone says I'm a democrat hater, no, I'm not. Republicans are useless at best and destructive at worse. There's no hope for those fascists at all. I'm on the democrats side but for christ's sake they are a cowardly, meandering, meek lot sometimes.


It's a farking Greek tragedy is what it is.
 
2021-09-27 7:14:18 PM  

Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.


You're position is to not put a tank of gas on your credit card even though without it you can't get to your job and won't get paid.

/ the household analogies are flawed to begin with
// part of the debt owed to self, csn print money, etc
 
2021-09-27 7:14:31 PM  
...because driving us off the shutdown cliff worked out so well for Republicans the last four times that they want to make us default on our debts as well this time.
 
2021-09-27 7:19:08 PM  
Just farking strike the trillion dollar coin.  Make it out of copper plated zinc.  Strike it from a penny blank.  Then the problem will be solved.
 
2021-09-27 7:19:12 PM  

Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?


Well...that's called "default". That's what happens when we fail to fund the government by raising the debt ceiling. It may well send us into a new recession.

Before anyone gets the bright idea to "pay down the debt"...Andrew Jackson nearly broke our entire economy doing that. Also, he stole a shiat ton of land from Native Americans

/ could we do things differently? Probably. Will we? No.
 
2021-09-27 7:20:26 PM  

iheartscotch: Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?

Well...that's called "default". That's what happens when we fail to fund the government by raising the debt ceiling. It may well send us into a new recession.

Before anyone gets the bright idea to "pay down the debt"...Andrew Jackson nearly broke our entire economy doing that. Also, he stole a shiat ton of land from Native Americans

/ could we do things differently? Probably. Will we? No.


Wait... So it is objectively a bad idea to ever pay down the debt?
 
2021-09-27 7:20:51 PM  
Moscow Mitch: Republicans will not facilitate another reckless, partisan taxing and spending spree.

I mean, why does this piece of shiat even get away with making these kinds of statements?

Why aren't the Democrats all over this hypocrisy?
 
2021-09-27 7:22:13 PM  

Joe USer: Sue Congress claiming the debt ceiling is unconstitutional under the 14th amendment.

Hey, at this point it couldn't hurt.


5-4 decision, the "wrong" way.

Might even go 6-3 because Roberts wouldn't want to get between two co-equal branches of government.
 
2021-09-27 7:22:19 PM  
I see the article is full of novel strategies, so let me stop you right there. That means he can't.

Biden is too old to think in terms like that, of upending some existing order and trying something disruptive to circumvent a barrier or wrong of some kind. He's old, so he's going to want to try and keep things within established "norms" - or to fix things by returning to them.

He might vote on or support a bill that's a little bit progressive, sure - but that's a bill. That's a "normal" thing. Don't expect him to do things that test the limits and blind spots of laws or established procedures, he's just too old for that sort of thinking and not right wing (and so willing to do anything to seize power, as the acquisition of power itself is the political right's main guiding principle). He's just not going to. Very few folks of his vintage could.

It would be nice to have some younger leadership, but our country is just too much of an intentionally warped and dysfunctional system to hope for much better than, "Can we just not be run by a total farking monster for a few years, thx". So hey, I'm counting my blessings that we actually aren't being run by a total monster finally. I just know if you're looking for boundary pushing or transformational leadership that this probably isn't going to be that (and I doubt we're likely even able to get something like that elected to begin with).
 
2021-09-27 7:23:09 PM  

SplittingAces: Why won't Biden wave his magic wand, consequences be damned?


He did with the Afghanistan withdrawal and the Afghan army sticking around
 
2021-09-27 7:23:15 PM  

Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?


Not a god damned thing happens because calling our debt would be an act of war and nobody is going to raise a finger.
 
2021-09-27 7:24:38 PM  

Shostie: Again with the f*cking trillion dollar coin...


man, could you imagine stealing it then trying to fence it? Or just break it at the 7-11
 
2021-09-27 7:25:15 PM  
The original debt ceiling was meant to keep war spending under control. Isn't that adorable?
 
2021-09-27 7:26:19 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: iheartscotch: Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?

Well...that's called "default". That's what happens when we fail to fund the government by raising the debt ceiling. It may well send us into a new recession.

Before anyone gets the bright idea to "pay down the debt"...Andrew Jackson nearly broke our entire economy doing that. Also, he stole a shiat ton of land from Native Americans

/ could we do things differently? Probably. Will we? No.

Wait... So it is objectively a bad idea to ever pay down the debt?


Pretty much. I'm sure that there will someone who will be along eventually to explain it better than I can. TLDR: Jackson made economy go splat

/ I've advocated in the past for buying our debt, paying the interest to ourselves and using that to generate all the money we could ever want...but then people started accusing me of being a witch.
 
2021-09-27 7:26:32 PM  

thehobbes: Shostie: Again with the f*cking trillion dollar coin...

man, could you imagine stealing it then trying to fence it? Or just break it at the 7-11


I've seen those Ocean's movies. That coin would disappear within a month...
 
2021-09-27 7:26:50 PM  

Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?


Aw you think your kitchen table budget is like the budget of an immortal nuclear armed owner of money entity known as the US farkjng A?

Aren't you adorable
 
2021-09-27 7:28:14 PM  

iheartscotch: Pretty much. I'm sure that there will someone who will be along eventually to explain it better than I can. TLDR: Jackson made economy go splat

/ I've advocated in the past for buying our debt, paying the interest to ourselves and using that to generate all the money we could ever want...but then people started accusing me of being a witch.


If the majority of US debt are simply IOUs to our future selves, why can't we just cancel it? Like we want to do with student loan debt. Pay off the existing foreign debt and hey, we're back to $0.

Just nuke the ledger.
 
2021-09-27 7:30:29 PM  
Heed the most important lesson from the Trump years: do enough shady stuff all at once, and no one will step up and stop you.

Do all of the things at once.
 
2021-09-27 7:31:06 PM  
This is actually good gamesmanship by the Democrats.  They know that the Republicans aren't going to let the government default on its debt, because that would cause a global economic collapse, and cost their owners billions if not trillions of dollars.

The wrong thing here for the Democrats to do is to blink first.  Don't cave into their demands, and dare them to let the government default...they won't do it, since they know who butters their bread...
 
2021-09-27 7:31:12 PM  
Once again, stupid problems require stupid solutions. Mint the coin.
 
2021-09-27 7:31:24 PM  

Leader O'Cola: danvon: Section 4 of the 14th Amendment seems awfully persuasive.

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."

I can't say it locks it down, but it's hard to argue that one party can just dig in their heels and refuse to pay an incurred debt in light of it.

Yet they just did.


Yes,  that's what they're saying. But, I think there's a valid argument to be made from the other side that despite what the debt ceiling rules say, the US constitution says the debts must be paid. Ergo, end of discussion, Yertle.

While the debt ceiling may itself be constitutional, would congress, in choosing not to follow that law, be considered to be acting unconstitutionally, and would it even enforceable? Who would have standing to take the United States to Court and say the US was in breach of the law by paying its debts when paying the debts is an enumerated power under Art. 1, Section 8?

I'm not saying I'm right, but just saying, "fark it, GOP, we're paying it anyway, debt ceiling be damned" appears to be an option that may very well be legal.
 
2021-09-27 7:33:00 PM  

iheartscotch: Subtonic: JolobinSmokin: I prefer my fantasy novels with less tropes and more magic.

Still better than lord of the rings.

Don't make me start singing a song in Sindarin (the Tolkien Elvish dialect that everyone is most familiar with)...I'll do it, M8! I swear on me mum!

/ I've been through everything, including the appendices, 8 times.


*grips pistol*

This is for you, or this is for me.
 
2021-09-27 7:33:19 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: iheartscotch: Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?

Well...that's called "default". That's what happens when we fail to fund the government by raising the debt ceiling. It may well send us into a new recession.

Before anyone gets the bright idea to "pay down the debt"...Andrew Jackson nearly broke our entire economy doing that. Also, he stole a shiat ton of land from Native Americans

/ could we do things differently? Probably. Will we? No.

Wait... So it is objectively a bad idea to ever pay down the debt?


Yes. In my limited understanding, the national debt is, essentially, the money supply. Public debt creates private assets.
 
2021-09-27 7:33:35 PM  
Mint the coin and put Trump's face on it, the Republicans won't dare oppose it.
 
2021-09-27 7:34:25 PM  
These were bad ideas when Obama was President and bad ideas now.  The issue isn't whether the President can unilaterally suspend the debt limit, the issue is that suspending or raising the debt limit without the involvement of Congress fundamentally undermines trust in the dollar because it leaves the issue open to court proceedings, conflicting future bills passed by Congress, or a future President rescinding that authority.  The strength of the dollar is based entire on the fact that is trusted by everyone as a store of value.  Anything which rocks that boat will cause an economic catastrophe.
 
2021-09-27 7:35:30 PM  

thehobbes: Shostie: Again with the f*cking trillion dollar coin...

man, could you imagine stealing it then trying to fence it? Or just break it at the 7-11


In Philadelphia, it's worth fifty bucks.
 
2021-09-27 7:37:59 PM  

iheartscotch: AmbassadorBooze: iheartscotch: Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?

Well...that's called "default". That's what happens when we fail to fund the government by raising the debt ceiling. It may well send us into a new recession.

Before anyone gets the bright idea to "pay down the debt"...Andrew Jackson nearly broke our entire economy doing that. Also, he stole a shiat ton of land from Native Americans

/ could we do things differently? Probably. Will we? No.

Wait... So it is objectively a bad idea to ever pay down the debt?

Pretty much. I'm sure that there will someone who will be along eventually to explain it better than I can. TLDR: Jackson made economy go splat

/ I've advocated in the past for buying our debt, paying the interest to ourselves and using that to generate all the money we could ever want...but then people started accusing me of being a witch.


OK.  I am actually serious.  How can it be bad to pay down debt.  Sure.  It isn't like a household.  But the debt comes with interest and paying it down would reduce interest payments.  Is it because the elites and wealthy don't pay their fair share?  So that paying down the debt would free the chump taxpayers from the interest payments?  Such that paying down the debt doesn't get the elites interest payments?
 
2021-09-27 7:39:04 PM  
The Treasury secretary could issue, say, a platinum coin worth $2 trillion, deposit it into the Treasury's account at the Fed, and use those funds to sustain the government until the debt ceiling is raised.

Or, as we know it these days, approximately 0.02 Bitcoin.
 
2021-09-27 7:41:28 PM  

dailygrinds: AmbassadorBooze: iheartscotch: Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?

Well...that's called "default". That's what happens when we fail to fund the government by raising the debt ceiling. It may well send us into a new recession.

Before anyone gets the bright idea to "pay down the debt"...Andrew Jackson nearly broke our entire economy doing that. Also, he stole a shiat ton of land from Native Americans

/ could we do things differently? Probably. Will we? No.

Wait... So it is objectively a bad idea to ever pay down the debt?

Yes. In my limited understanding, the national debt is, essentially, the money supply. Public debt creates private assets.


I'm not saying you are wrong.  But how does national debt create the apartment I live in?  And how does paying down the debt destroy the apartment?  Won't my car and apartment and doritos and natty daddy exist if the debt goes to zero?
 
2021-09-27 7:43:54 PM  

Moose out front: Biden won't do a thing. They'll play their stupid game of "we'll default on our debt, we really will this time if you don't give us what we want!!" and it'll be the same song and dance. Why? Because the democrats are too scared to make substantive changes, even if it wouldn't hurt them and even if it would solve all these stupid problems.

Before anyone says I'm a democrat hater, no, I'm not.


Unfortunately, the second you criticize Democrats on Fark, the people here are already typing up "how's the weather in Moscow" or "you just want Republicans to win" or "stop infighting, you're the REAL problem for wanting Democrats to do anything."

Welcome to Fark. It sucks here. You are either with the Boomer ConservaDem fascism enablers, or you are against them, apparently.
 
2021-09-27 7:44:38 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: iheartscotch: AmbassadorBooze: iheartscotch: Dodo David: Leader O'Cola: Dodo David: So, instead of trying to pay off its debts, the US government keeps adding to them. This will not end well.

Screen name matches up.

If the US government can't pay its debts, then what?

Well...that's called "default". That's what happens when we fail to fund the government by raising the debt ceiling. It may well send us into a new recession.

Before anyone gets the bright idea to "pay down the debt"...Andrew Jackson nearly broke our entire economy doing that. Also, he stole a shiat ton of land from Native Americans

/ could we do things differently? Probably. Will we? No.

Wait... So it is objectively a bad idea to ever pay down the debt?

Pretty much. I'm sure that there will someone who will be along eventually to explain it better than I can. TLDR: Jackson made economy go splat

/ I've advocated in the past for buying our debt, paying the interest to ourselves and using that to generate all the money we could ever want...but then people started accusing me of being a witch.

OK.  I am actually serious.  How can it be bad to pay down debt.  Sure.  It isn't like a household.  But the debt comes with interest and paying it down would reduce interest payments.  Is it because the elites and wealthy don't pay their fair share?  So that paying down the debt would free the chump taxpayers from the interest payments?  Such that paying down the debt doesn't get the elites interest payments?


I don't know if it's necessarily bad, but if you look for John Oliver's take on it he explains why it's not always a good idea and that debt, in and of itself, is not always bad.
 
2021-09-27 7:44:39 PM  

bluejeansonfire: Moose out front: Biden won't do a thing. They'll play their stupid game of "we'll default on our debt, we really will this time if you don't give us what we want!!" and it'll be the same song and dance. Why? Because the democrats are too scared to make substantive changes, even if it wouldn't hurt them and even if it would solve all these stupid problems.

Before anyone says I'm a democrat hater, no, I'm not.

Unfortunately, the second you criticize Democrats on Fark, the people here are already typing up "how's the weather in Moscow" or "you just want Republicans to win" or "stop infighting, you're the REAL problem for wanting Democrats to do anything."

Welcome to Fark. It sucks here. You are either with the Boomer ConservaDem fascism enablers, or you are against them, apparently.


lol.
 
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