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(Cracked)   Red Button - Update our economic theories for the modern world.... or Blue Button - Use 1940s thinking to oppress the poor. What to do? What to do?   (cracked.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Money, Unemployment, Debt, United States public debt, United States, Minimum wage, student loan debt, Small business  
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3002 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Sep 2021 at 8:30 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-09-18 8:21:56 PM  
Most of that has pretty much proven itself true.

Used to be a guy could work for a small business and get by. Now you need the power of a large one to supply things like health benefits since you can't afford to self fund anymore.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-18 8:33:17 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

RIP Red Buttons
 
2021-09-18 8:42:24 PM  
Economic theories that never got a dinner.
 
2021-09-18 8:42:29 PM  
"The hours men and women worked, the wages they received, the conditions of their labor-these had passed beyond the control of the people, and were imposed by this new industrial dictatorship. The savings of the average family, the capital of the small business man, the investments set aside for old age -- other people's money -- these were tools which the new economic royalty used to dig itself in.

Those who tilled the soil no longer reaped the rewards which were their right. The small measure of their gains was decreed by men in distant cities.

Throughout the Nation, opportunity was limited by monopoly. Individual initiative was crushed in the cogs of a great machine. The field open for free business was more and more restricted. Private enterprise, indeed, became too private. It became privileged enterprise, not free enterprise.

An old English judge once said: 'Necessitous men are not free men.' Liberty requires opportunity to make a living -- a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor, other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

[...]

The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the Government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the Government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the Government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the Flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the Flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1936 Democratic National Convention

https://millercenter.org/the-presiden​c​y/presidential-speeches/june-27-1936-d​emocratic-national-convention
 
2021-09-18 8:45:33 PM  

edmo: Most of that has pretty much proven itself true.

Used to be a guy could work for a small business and get by. Now you need the power of a large one to supply things like health benefits since you can't afford to self fund anymore.

[Fark user image image 500x471]


I, for one, am not outraged that or standard of living has give up faster than the cost of unskilled labor.
 
2021-09-18 8:46:34 PM  
That is a collection of some of the stupidest farking bullshiat I've ever read in my life. I won't even insult the intelligence of nitrous huffers by accusing the author of being one. I think they smoke straight Styrofoam out of a bong.
 
2021-09-18 8:52:59 PM  

alltim: [Fark user image 129x173]
RIP Red Buttons


Never got a roast!
 
2021-09-18 9:01:43 PM  

Bith Set Me Up: "The hours men and women worked, the wages they received, the conditions of their labor-these had passed beyond the control of the people, and were imposed by this new industrial dictatorship. The savings of the average family, the capital of the small business man, the investments set aside for old age -- other people's money -- these were tools which the new economic royalty used to dig itself in.

Those who tilled the soil no longer reaped the rewards which were their right. The small measure of their gains was decreed by men in distant cities.

Throughout the Nation, opportunity was limited by monopoly. Individual initiative was crushed in the cogs of a great machine. The field open for free business was more and more restricted. Private enterprise, indeed, became too private. It became privileged enterprise, not free enterprise.

An old English judge once said: 'Necessitous men are not free men.' Liberty requires opportunity to make a living -- a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor, other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

[...]

The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the Government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the Government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the Government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the Flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the Flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1936 Democratic National Convention

https://millercenter.org/the-presidenc​y/presidential-speeches/june-27-1936-d​emocratic-national-convention


But dont you fo ahead and blame big companies. It's the small businesses exploiting all the labor.
 
2021-09-18 9:03:29 PM  
"Small Businesses" are a talking point for both sides.  Every politician screams, "we need to save small businesses!  They're the lifeblood of our economy!"  Meanwhile, the SBA barely has enough funding to keep the lights on.
 
2021-09-18 9:04:24 PM  

alltim: [Fark user image 129x173]
RIP Red Buttons


RIP Red Skelton

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-18 9:04:48 PM  

Magnanimous_J: That is a collection of some of the stupidest farking bullshiat I've ever read in my life. I won't even insult the intelligence of nitrous huffers by accusing the author of being one. I think they smoke straight Styrofoam out of a bong.



Well won't argue all the points, but I do agree that we have elevated the small business owner as an American economic savior.  When in reality many small business owners are terrible businesses.
 
2021-09-18 9:09:14 PM  
What If Small Businesses AREN'T Good?

I don't think this jackass appreciates how quickly a monopoly can turn sour. Internet access in this country is overpriced because large conglomerates divied up the pie so they wouldn't have any competition.
 
2021-09-18 9:09:53 PM  

Lsherm: What If Small Businesses AREN'T Good?

I don't think this jackass appreciates how quickly a monopoly can turn sour. Internet access in this country is overpriced because large conglomerates divied up the pie so they wouldn't have any competition.


FARKING THIS
 
2021-09-18 9:14:46 PM  
Republican economic policy in a nutshell:

Economy doing great? Obviously we need to lower corporate taxes!
Economy in the crapper? Obviously we need to lower corporate taxes!

Definition of insanity republicanism: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
 
2021-09-18 9:19:35 PM  

Lsherm: What If Small Businesses AREN'T Good?

I don't think this jackass appreciates how quickly a monopoly can turn sour. Internet access in this country is overpriced because large conglomerates divied up the pie so they wouldn't have any competition.


Ya, the author got that one really wrong. The correct take is that being able to start your own small business and having it fail shouldn't equate to a death sentence in this country. If we had a decent social safety net, people who worked at shiatty companies could leave and start their own businesses without fear of starving and going homeless. Hence, another reason why large companies and their owners fight so hard against an adequate social safety net.
 
2021-09-18 9:20:41 PM  

Excelsior: Republican economic policy in a nutshell:

Economy doing great? Obviously we need to lower corporate taxes!
Economy in the crapper? Obviously we need to lower corporate taxes!

Definition of insanity republicanism: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.


They aren't expecting any results other than the rich getting richer and breaking them off a pittance, though. And it works.
 
2021-09-18 9:21:24 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

Where's my Diet Coke?
 
2021-09-18 9:21:31 PM  
1940's thinking? You mean 90% top marginal tax rates on the rich? Powerful labor unions?

I don't think the crisis is that we're "going back" to 1940s economic thinking. Maybe 1940s social thinking (gays should stay in the closet and "those people" don't deserve the right to vote).
 
2021-09-18 9:22:34 PM  

roc6783: Lsherm: What If Small Businesses AREN'T Good?

I don't think this jackass appreciates how quickly a monopoly can turn sour. Internet access in this country is overpriced because large conglomerates divied up the pie so they wouldn't have any competition.

Ya, the author got that one really wrong. The correct take is that being able to start your own small business and having it fail shouldn't equate to a death sentence in this country. If we had a decent social safety net, people who worked at shiatty companies could leave and start their own businesses without fear of starving and going homeless. Hence, another reason why large companies and their owners fight so hard against an adequate social safety net.


One of the reasons the 1% is fighting so hard against single payer universal healthcare: Not having your health/life in your employers hands makes it easier for employees to look for greener pastures.
 
2021-09-18 9:27:03 PM  
Haha, the USA has one of the lowest proportions of small businesses in the entire first world.

You know how we make it appear that we don't? We simply redefine what a "small" business is.

/in almost every other nation, a small business is on the order of ten or fewer employees
//usa sba definition? as many as *1,500* employees. as much as *$40m* in annual revenues. (but not both)
 
2021-09-18 9:27:17 PM  

Excelsior: roc6783: Lsherm: What If Small Businesses AREN'T Good?

I don't think this jackass appreciates how quickly a monopoly can turn sour. Internet access in this country is overpriced because large conglomerates divied up the pie so they wouldn't have any competition.

Ya, the author got that one really wrong. The correct take is that being able to start your own small business and having it fail shouldn't equate to a death sentence in this country. If we had a decent social safety net, people who worked at shiatty companies could leave and start their own businesses without fear of starving and going homeless. Hence, another reason why large companies and their owners fight so hard against an adequate social safety net.

One of the reasons the 1% is fighting so hard against single payer universal healthcare: Not having your health/life in your employers hands makes it easier for employees to look for greener pastures.


Yup.
 
2021-09-18 9:27:36 PM  
Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Known stuff. Nice to hear again.
 
2021-09-18 9:41:03 PM  
The worst part isn't "Stimulus causes inflation!" It's "X causes inflation! Therefore hyperinflation!"

Like, inflation is gonna keep on happening. Just because it's inflation doesn't mean it's hyperinflation.
 
2021-09-18 9:42:19 PM  
Hey, two Keanu movie references in one headline.
 
2021-09-18 9:48:32 PM  
MMT is all well and dandy.  Until Saudi Aramco and Qatar decide they want Renminbi (or, I dunno, Dogecoin? Palladium bullion?) for their oil.  And then, since it won't buy them oil, China doesn't want to sell us iPhones for Dollars, and then it's time to join the Romans, Ottomans, and British in the ex-empires club.
 
2021-09-18 9:53:25 PM  
lh3.googleusercontent.comView Full Size

Redd Foxx standing by.
 
2021-09-18 9:55:46 PM  

Mugato: Hey, two Keanu movie references in one headline.


You're welcome.
 
2021-09-18 10:17:08 PM  

TheSubjunctive: MMT is all well and dandy.  Until Saudi Aramco and Qatar decide they want Renminbi (or, I dunno, Dogecoin? Palladium bullion?) for their oil.  And then, since it won't buy them oil, China doesn't want to sell us iPhones for Dollars, and then it's time to join the Romans, Ottomans, and British in the ex-empires club.


This will never happen.
 
2021-09-18 10:22:26 PM  

Ishkur: TheSubjunctive: MMT is all well and dandy.  Until Saudi Aramco and Qatar decide they want Renminbi (or, I dunno, Dogecoin? Palladium bullion?) for their oil.  And then, since it won't buy them oil, China doesn't want to sell us iPhones for Dollars, and then it's time to join the Romans, Ottomans, and British in the ex-empires club.

This will never happen.


But right wing assholes getting one of their pet guttings of the social safety net to raise the debt ceiling is a sacred tradition. Let's keep doing that.
 
2021-09-18 10:22:31 PM  
#5 (Small businesses may not be good) ignores 2 key things:
1. The lack of health insurance common in small business is only a problem if health insurance is still a thing that exists. Hint: Every other industrialized nation has solved this problem decades ago.
2. It mentions that abuse is actually more common in small businesses, and that may well be true. However, there's a shiatload of small businesses. You can quit the shiatty ones, stick with the good ones, and help the good ones to thrive. If Walmart (or whoever) runs everyone in a 20 mile radius out of business, and you don't like working there? Hope you can afford to distance travel to many interviews, then move, or you're stuck.

#4 (Unemployment benefits don't cause worker shortages) is spot on. People don't just work to survive, they work to thrive, and ideally, doing something they actually want to do. UBI -should- be the long-term goal here.

#3. I'm not going to weigh-in on the MMT debate, but with or without adopting it, by not blowing a third of the budget on a military in a time of peace, there would indeed be an absolute shiatload of money to invest in social programs and infrastructure.

#2. The whole "debt doesn't matter" thing I'd be careful with. It's true to a point, but taken -too- far can wreck a country.

#1. Stimulus doesn't cause inflation. Yep. It's an injection of cash so everything doesn't grind to a halt, it's not a continuous thing.
 
2021-09-18 10:29:18 PM  

trerro: #5 (Small businesses may not be good) ignores 2 key things:
1. The lack of health insurance common in small business is only a problem if health insurance is still a thing that

#3. I'm not going to weigh-in on the MMT debate, but with or without adopting it, by not blowing a third of the budget on a military in a time of peace, there would indeed be an absolute shiatload of money to invest in social programs and infrastructure.



The military budget is not wasted, it is sent to military contractors. I mean it's not like the $1.6 trillion spent on the F-35 Lightning II doesn't end up on lots of companies bottom line. And we get a plane we can bomb the Taliban with. Again.
 
2021-09-18 10:51:28 PM  

Lsherm: What If Small Businesses AREN'T Good?

I don't think this jackass appreciates how quickly a monopoly can turn sour. Internet access in this country is overpriced because large conglomerates divied up the pie so they wouldn't have any competition.


Makes you wonder why they've never been charged under the RICO act if they've collaborated to work a monopoly together.
 
2021-09-18 10:59:42 PM  

somedude210: Lsherm: What If Small Businesses AREN'T Good?

I don't think this jackass appreciates how quickly a monopoly can turn sour. Internet access in this country is overpriced because large conglomerates divied up the pie so they wouldn't have any competition.

Makes you wonder why they've never been charged under the RICO act if they've collaborated to work a monopoly together.


Because they deliberately worked around it so they wouldn't be charged. To be charged, they'd have to have meetings about it, agree on spots, and coordinate. Instead, they avoided each other back in the day when they were wiring existing neighborhoods and now, when a new neighborhood is set up, they negotiate a sole-source contract for the lines that run to houses. Whoever wins that bid gets that area and the "competitors" never attempt to install their own service as competition. Rinse, repeat.

My current building only ever offered Comcast/XFinity because they wired the building. However, now we have competition (at half the price) but the trick? The competitor is a fixed line of sight wireless provider and they're piping a wireless line into the building. Since Comcast was too cheap to actually pay for the cabling inside the building, the building owns those wires. Comcast just assumed no one else would pay to run a big fat pipe to the building.

Guess who just sent me a letter letting me know they could drop the price of my monthly internet service?
 
2021-09-18 11:02:11 PM  

edmo: Most of that has pretty much proven itself true.

Used to be a guy could work for a small business and get by. Now you need the power of a large one to supply things like health benefits since you can't afford to self fund anymore.

[Fark user image image 500x471]


60 years ago, half the continent of Europe was rubble and Britain was having issues with burning so much coal that there was a fog that descended on London and killed thousands of Londoners.

Life is easy when you're the only world economy left and you can set the terms as you see fit.
 
2021-09-18 11:09:24 PM  
How does this all work? With a little thing called Modern Monetary Theory. Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) states that countries, like the United States, who make their own currencies can pretty much print as much as they want and not have to worry about inflation.

I like this theory. Go ahead and do it: the result will be different this time.
 
2021-09-18 11:21:36 PM  

capacc: Magnanimous_J: That is a collection of some of the stupidest farking bullshiat I've ever read in my life. I won't even insult the intelligence of nitrous huffers by accusing the author of being one. I think they smoke straight Styrofoam out of a bong.


Well won't argue all the points, but I do agree that we have elevated the small business owner as an American economic savior.  When in reality many small business owners are terrible businesses.


Wrong. Small businesses and their owners are the most vital people in America.

Think about the logical conclusion of this college freshman circle jerk of an article. Small business is bad, so big business is good. Capitalism is bad, so nationalizing our big businesses is good.

Hey! Why is everyone starving to death?

Don't take my word for it, just ask every country that's ever tried it, ever.
 
2021-09-18 11:23:20 PM  

Lsherm: What If Small Businesses AREN'T Good?

I don't think this jackass appreciates how quickly a monopoly can turn sour. Internet access in this country is overpriced because large conglomerates divied up the pie so they wouldn't have any competition.


Collusion at it's finest with enough congress critters bought and paid to keep the Sherman act muzzeled.
 
2021-09-18 11:35:53 PM  
I read an article (that I'm having trouble finding) that argued one reason we aren't seeing much inflation after stimulus is that it trickles up to the wealthy who hoard it. In their coffers it functionally disappears from the economy and won't affect things like prices and incomes.

I wish I could reread it, because I'm not sure how valid the argument is. It was interesting to consider though.
 
2021-09-19 12:50:45 AM  
Those options both sound like red buttons to me
 
2021-09-19 2:00:17 AM  
You know a major stumbling block for small businesses?  HEALTH INSURANCE!!

You know what would allow a HUGE growth in small businesses?   UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!

Yep..Imagine no longer having to spend hours and hours of time dealing with getting health coverage
for yourself or a few employees and the endless paperwork, costs, and so on...
Imagine all that SHAT going out the farking window... No more worry about trip and fall scammers
trying to milk you dry, no more worry about Tom in Shipping breaking his finger and costing the
business and himself thousands of dollars in actual and time spent on paperwork, for a small injury
that is trivial to deal with...

Imagine.....
 
2021-09-19 2:14:05 AM  

trerro: #2. The whole "debt doesn't matter" thing I'd be careful with. It's true to a point, but taken -too- far can wreck a country.


This is true of every metric, index, and measuring stick you want to use in economics. Everything is on a bell curve. Raising the minimum wage too far will wreck a country. Raising interest rates too much will wreck a country. Lowering taxes too much will wreck a country.

Nothing works the same way all the time forever. The great economics algorithm is constantly shifting with multiple variables and values, such that doing too much in one area will fark up another. So we must constantly make adjustments to it as time goes on to make good things happen, in accordance with demographics, trends, and market forces.
 
2021-09-19 2:16:58 AM  

Ishkur: trerro: #2. The whole "debt doesn't matter" thing I'd be careful with. It's true to a point, but taken -too- far can wreck a country.

This is true of every metric, index, and measuring stick you want to use in economics. Everything is on a bell curve. Raising the minimum wage too far will wreck a country. Raising interest rates too much will wreck a country. Lowering taxes too much will wreck a country.

Nothing works the same way all the time forever. The great economics algorithm is constantly shifting with multiple variables and values, such that doing too much in one area will fark up another. So we must constantly make adjustments to it as time goes on to make good things happen, in accordance with demographics, trends, and market forces.


The entire world is working on moving away from the USD as their reserve currency and we are so drunk on debt spending that it's going to destroy us when there's nobody left to sell those t bills to.
 
2021-09-19 3:04:14 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: The entire world is working on moving away from the USD as their reserve currency


No they're not.
 
2021-09-19 3:20:20 AM  

Ishkur: 137 Is An Excellent Time: The entire world is working on moving away from the USD as their reserve currency

No they're not.


They are.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/cent​r​al-banks-retreat-from-u-s-dollar-11617​720602
 
2021-09-19 5:51:00 AM  

Magnanimous_J: That is a collection of some of the stupidest farking bullshiat I've ever read in my life. I won't even insult the intelligence of nitrous huffers by accusing the author of being one. I think they smoke straight Styrofoam out of a bong.


Why bother refuting reality when you can simply reject it, and substitute your own!
 
2021-09-19 7:37:43 AM  
Every dollar in circulation is debt. That's where money comes from! And up the chain of debt, eventually it's government debt. That $29T in debt is why we have an economy. The big reason why countries are moving off the dollar as a reserve currency is because the primary buyer of dollars (the US government itself, in the form of taxes) isn't. The entire stability of the dollar ends up resting in the hands of hoarders who plow that cash into solid assets (see the utterly distorted real estate market).

Taxing the rich isn't a panacea for the economic woes in the US, but it would help on a lot of fronts.
 
2021-09-19 8:29:53 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: Ishkur: 137 Is An Excellent Time: The entire world is working on moving away from the USD as their reserve currency

No they're not.

They are.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/centr​al-banks-retreat-from-u-s-dollar-11617​720602


That's not an article, that's a headline.

And "lowest levels since 1995" implies that there was some point in the past where conditions were worse and the US dollar was even stronger back then. What it's alluding to is describing the velocity of the US dollar around the world, not the world economy decoupling from it as the reserve currency.

The solution, thus, is actually to increase the trade deficit.
 
2021-09-19 8:59:09 AM  
Red Buttons, Red Skelton, Red Fox.  Lot's of old people on Fark.
 
2021-09-19 9:07:14 AM  

Klyukva: How does this all work? With a little thing called Modern Monetary Theory. Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) states that countries, like the United States, who make their own currencies can pretty much print as much as they want and not have to worry about inflation.

I like this theory. Go ahead and do it: the result will be different this time.


The other side of MMT is taxation is no longer for revenue generation, it's for pulling money back out of the economy in order to control inflation.

This means it'll be used for compliance and punishment at first, with the ultimate results being a 100% tax rate on everyone, with everything provided by the government.

Block houses and sawdust bread, here we come!
 
2021-09-19 2:17:47 PM  
So, I see some things wrong with this article.

Let me insert some reality checks:

Communism is good, except that every country that tried it failed miserably and went back to capitalism.
You can go into as much debt as you want, except all the countries that do borrow a bunch of money have a problem of having to pay unsustainable interest rates and end up going bankrupt.
You can print as much money as you want, except that all the countries that do print money have their currency become worthless and so end up with hyper inflation.
Big companies are good, until company leadership starts to think they are infallible by their accomplishments, and then eventually fail when another company comes around and does a better job, has a better product and treats their people better.
 
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