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(Yahoo)   France discovers that farking around for a month each summer leads to finding out   (news.yahoo.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Submarine, France, Prime Minister of Australia, Prime minister, French shipbuilders, French officials, Australia, Canada  
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4089 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Sep 2021 at 2:50 PM (34 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-09-18 10:59:09 AM  
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2021-09-18 11:38:57 AM  
So, let me make sure I understand.

Your company doesn't want to do business according to the contract.  You keep f*cking with them, lessening your deliverables and upping their costs to the tune of double by the end of it, probably.  Or more.  It's been 5 years, and you're still not clear on the relationship (which means the original deal for technology is completely obsolete). You expect the local company to adapt to your employees' traditional month-long vacation.  Your people working at the client site show up late for meetings in a culture where punctuality is valued.  Your workers biatch that the clients don't "understand" their "need" for long lunches.  Basically, you ignore the business culture you're working in and expect the client to adapt to you, at their own cost.

Jesus, I knew the French had a reputation for being arrogant, entitled little bastards, but that really takes the biscuit.  Looks to me like Australia put up with a huge amount of bullshiat before pulling the plug.
 
2021-09-18 12:05:35 PM  
More countries act like France than don't... especially in that part of the world. The excuse doesn't fly in this context.. those are knowns and you can plan for them. Sweden and the other nordic countries are known for that, too.

The cost "overruns" are another thing.. It's normal to underbid yourself and then grow the contract to the true value once the customer is committed and can't pull out. They didn't wait long enough on this project and Australia figured they should walk away.
 
2021-09-18 12:15:40 PM  
Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.
 
2021-09-18 12:26:32 PM  
This wouldn't be an issue if ALL of us got to take the entire month of August off from work paid. And I really think that's the solution here.
 
2021-09-18 12:40:24 PM  

Lsherm: Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.


Exactly.  I said in another thread - France was offering them a 2013 Renault for $50K, because that's the best deal the Aussies could get at any price.  Which over time became $85K and oh by the way the wipers don't work.  Oh - and now that we have a contract, we should mention the floor pan is rusted.  And you don't really need a heater, do you?

The US came in and quoted them the a new, fully loaded Chevy Tahoe for $85K.  What do you think the Aussies are going to do?
 
2021-09-18 2:35:16 PM  

Miss5280: This wouldn't be an issue if ALL of us got to take the entire month of August off from work paid. And I really think that's the solution here.


Think how many lives would have been saved in this country in 2020 if we had done that.
 
2021-09-18 2:55:26 PM  
You must work yourself to death, wage slave! Your masters need more money!
 
2021-09-18 2:55:34 PM  
"France was in September 2021 dropped as the partner due to build their replacements."

Foreign-like typing detected.
 
2021-09-18 2:57:01 PM  
Also, being nuclear instead of diesel comes down to a detection issue, which, given Chinese rapid advancement in tech might make diesel a real liability....and then there are the Russians to worry about too
 
2021-09-18 2:57:09 PM  
Le sigh.
 
2021-09-18 2:59:28 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.

Exactly.  I said in another thread - France was offering them a 2013 Renault for $50K, because that's the best deal the Aussies could get at any price.  Which over time became $85K and oh by the way the wipers don't work.  Oh - and now that we have a contract, we should mention the floor pan is rusted.  And you don't really need a heater, do you?

The US came in and quoted them the a new, fully loaded Chevy Tahoe for $85K.  What do you think the Aussies are going to do?


Also, a nuclear powered Chevy Tahoe.
 
2021-09-18 3:00:38 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, let me make sure I understand.

Your company doesn't want to do business according to the contract.  You keep f*cking with them, lessening your deliverables and upping their costs to the tune of double by the end of it, probably.  Or more.  It's been 5 years, and you're still not clear on the relationship (which means the original deal for technology is completely obsolete). You expect the local company to adapt to your employees' traditional month-long vacation.  Your people working at the client site show up late for meetings in a culture where punctuality is valued.  Your workers biatch that the clients don't "understand" their "need" for long lunches.  Basically, you ignore the business culture you're working in and expect the client to adapt to you, at their own cost.

Jesus, I knew the French had a reputation for being arrogant, entitled little bastards, but that really takes the biscuit.  Looks to me like Australia put up with a huge amount of bullshiat before pulling the plug.


I once worked for a French owned company has a buyer and they would consistently ignore established payment agreements. While I negotiated 30-day terms with you that were approved by my bosses the company would arbitrarily pay everything in 45. Eventually all of our contracts were canceled and I had to make every purchase on a company credit card. Most of the vendors understood that it wasn't my doing and if anything it was a testament to my ability to build strong relations with my vendors.
 
2021-09-18 3:02:32 PM  

whatisaidwas: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.

Exactly.  I said in another thread - France was offering them a 2013 Renault for $50K, because that's the best deal the Aussies could get at any price.  Which over time became $85K and oh by the way the wipers don't work.  Oh - and now that we have a contract, we should mention the floor pan is rusted.  And you don't really need a heater, do you?

The US came in and quoted them the a new, fully loaded Chevy Tahoe for $85K.  What do you think the Aussies are going to do?

Also, a nuclear powered Chevy Tahoe.


Canyonero.
 
2021-09-18 3:02:42 PM  
vAcAtiOn iS bAd
 
2021-09-18 3:03:22 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Jesus, I knew the French had a reputation for being arrogant, entitled little bastards, but that really takes the biscuit.


You missed the part where the French company kept hiring away Australians with experience in submarines, in a pretty transparent attempt to make the Australian government be unable to rely on their own experts, even after the Australian government complained about that, and told the French to knock it off.

Also, the company (which the French government has a majority stake in) is in the process of delivering submarines to the French government on a fixed price contract, and those subs have allegedly not gone over budget.

And now that company was tring to balloon the cost of the Australian subs by an extra $20-30 billion.

If I was a suspicious person, I'd wonder if there had been some dodgy accounting going on, and the French subs were over-budget, and the company had run up debts hidden from public view, but the company was trying to move that debt to the Australians....
 
2021-09-18 3:04:37 PM  
And during the Tour d'France the country slows down as well, so it's more like a 3 - 4 week 5 hour day followed by that one month holiday.
 
2021-09-18 3:05:10 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.

Exactly.  I said in another thread - France was offering them a 2013 Renault for $50K, because that's the best deal the Aussies could get at any price.  Which over time became $85K and oh by the way the wipers don't work.  Oh - and now that we have a contract, we should mention the floor pan is rusted.  And you don't really need a heater, do you?

The US came in and quoted them the a new, fully loaded Chevy Tahoe for $85K.  What do you think the Aussies are going to do?


if it'd have been the Twizy F1, sign me up

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/twizy/66284/renault-twizy-f1-review
 
2021-09-18 3:10:44 PM  

DrD'isInfotainment: Also, being nuclear instead of diesel comes down to a detection issue, which, given Chinese rapid advancement in tech might make diesel a real liability....


That is a complicated topic.

Diesel subs can be stealthier for short periods of time as nuclear subs reactors are always running, and so making noise. But nuclear subs can go and sit at depth in the middle of nowhwre for weeks or months.

My guess is that there has been quite a bit of wargaming going on, between the US, UK and Australian navies and the US pointed out that it would be far easier for them to integrate Australian ships into the US plans, if the Australians had subs similar in capability to the US subs, rather than having quite different capabilities.
 
2021-09-18 3:12:29 PM  
By 2021, Naval Group had downgraded that figure to 60%, and had reportedly indicated that it could be downgraded further still, according to Politico.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-18 3:12:46 PM  
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian has challenged Australia to explain how it plans to exit the contracts it signed as part of the deal.

Easy: Australia agreed on $36 billion, and 90% of it would be assembled in Australia. After agreeing to that, France essentially doubled the price and only 60% at the moment is intended to be made in Australia, and it's likely even less will actually be made there. Seems one side already broke the contracts.

/Military contracts and spending are the dumbest farking things.
 
2021-09-18 3:14:13 PM  

Lsherm: Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.


I don't think going with a nuclear powered submarine instead of a diesel is quite the same as choosing the "power windows" option when ordering your new Ford.
 
2021-09-18 3:17:02 PM  
Lackadaisical French business culture, Australian emphasis on propriety and punctiliousness, UK opportunism  and predatory US arms manufacturers are not the whole story. They barely even comprise the surface of this story.

The US, Aus and UK didn't just fark over France for a single arms deal or a China-countering infrastructure plan. Even a $90B arms deal is still a rounding error in US terms. France - from which nation I am not much interested in hearing criticism of NATO; oh, are they in this week? how nice - has spent decades playing fast and loose with the alliance.

Does it suit French commercial interests? Then it is a vital component of European security. Is it causing problems for their Iraqi, Libyan and Iranian reactor deals? Is it complicating their arms trade with Russia and China? Then it is a tyrannical, outmoded vehicle of hubristic American arrogance. Something else entirely is happening, here. France has been deliberately cut out of the herd and publicly humiliated. That's not something that happens at random or in a vacuum.
 
2021-09-18 3:17:59 PM  

whatisaidwas: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.

Exactly.  I said in another thread - France was offering them a 2013 Renault for $50K, because that's the best deal the Aussies could get at any price.  Which over time became $85K and oh by the way the wipers don't work.  Oh - and now that we have a contract, we should mention the floor pan is rusted.  And you don't really need a heater, do you?

The US came in and quoted them the a new, fully loaded Chevy Tahoe for $85K.  What do you think the Aussies are going to do?

Also, a nuclear powered Chevy Tahoe.


Which is also what the Australians wanted in the first place and couldn't find a dealer
 
2021-09-18 3:19:11 PM  
When you take longer holiday's than the Aussies? that's saying something...
 
2021-09-18 3:19:45 PM  
I can understand the Australians cancelling the French contract and going with the American/British offer instead, but it's still a dick move to give essentially no notice. However, as they say in a country I can't quite remember, c'est la vie.
 
2021-09-18 3:19:49 PM  

Space Banana Physicist: Lackadaisical French business culture, Australian emphasis on propriety and punctiliousness, UK opportunism  and predatory US arms manufacturers are not the whole story. They barely even comprise the surface of this story.

The US, Aus and UK didn't just fark over France for a single arms deal or a China-countering infrastructure plan. Even a $90B arms deal is still a rounding error in US terms. France - from which nation I am not much interested in hearing criticism of NATO; oh, are they in this week? how nice - has spent decades playing fast and loose with the alliance.

Does it suit French commercial interests? Then it is a vital component of European security. Is it causing problems for their Iraqi, Libyan and Iranian reactor deals? Is it complicating their arms trade with Russia and China? Then it is a tyrannical, outmoded vehicle of hubristic American arrogance. Something else entirely is happening, here. France has been deliberately cut out of the herd and publicly humiliated. That's not something that happens at random or in a vacuum.


Yeah but it's a bit shocking after 4 years of diplomacy done by Twitter rant that we are suddenly going back to more subtle but devastating subterfuge.
 
2021-09-18 3:20:46 PM  

whatisaidwas: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.

Exactly.  I said in another thread - France was offering them a 2013 Renault for $50K, because that's the best deal the Aussies could get at any price.  Which over time became $85K and oh by the way the wipers don't work.  Oh - and now that we have a contract, we should mention the floor pan is rusted.  And you don't really need a heater, do you?

The US came in and quoted them the a new, fully loaded Chevy Tahoe for $85K.  What do you think the Aussies are going to do?

Also, a nuclear powered Chevy Tahoe.


I would buy the living shiat out of that.
 
2021-09-18 3:23:10 PM  

qorkfiend: whatisaidwas: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.

Exactly.  I said in another thread - France was offering them a 2013 Renault for $50K, because that's the best deal the Aussies could get at any price.  Which over time became $85K and oh by the way the wipers don't work.  Oh - and now that we have a contract, we should mention the floor pan is rusted.  And you don't really need a heater, do you?

The US came in and quoted them the a new, fully loaded Chevy Tahoe for $85K.  What do you think the Aussies are going to do?

Also, a nuclear powered Chevy Tahoe.

Which is also what the Australians wanted in the first place and couldn't find a dealer


Well - a dealer at $50K.  They went to the nuclear-powered Chevy dealer with $50K and they laughed.  So they had to go to Honest Jacques' Pre-Owned.  Now that they're on the hook for $85K, they've looked over at the Nuke-Chevy dealer and realized they might as well.
 
2021-09-18 3:24:26 PM  
"Australian officials expected meetings to begin on time, citing a French phenomenon known as a "diplomatic 15 minutes" whereby people were considered to be on time as long as they arrived within 15 minutes of the start time."

"If you're not 10 minutes early, you're late"

~ Tom Coughlin, Super Bowl winning coach ~
 
2021-09-18 3:27:01 PM  
Are you French, Clyde?
 
2021-09-18 3:27:02 PM  
Budget overruns! On a defense contract! That's like the pope shiatting in the woods....

The "geopolitical war novel" part of my brain thinks we are hooking the aussies up with more than just subs. We see them as our Cuba against China. These subs become surveillance assets for the US and why not give each one a Nuke or 4.
 
2021-09-18 3:27:42 PM  

Space Banana Physicist: Lackadaisical French business culture, Australian emphasis on propriety and punctiliousness, UK opportunism  and predatory US arms manufacturers are not the whole story. They barely even comprise the surface of this story.

The US, Aus and UK didn't just fark over France for a single arms deal or a China-countering infrastructure plan. Even a $90B arms deal is still a rounding error in US terms. France - from which nation I am not much interested in hearing criticism of NATO; oh, are they in this week? how nice - has spent decades playing fast and loose with the alliance.

Does it suit French commercial interests? Then it is a vital component of European security. Is it causing problems for their Iraqi, Libyan and Iranian reactor deals? Is it complicating their arms trade with Russia and China? Then it is a tyrannical, outmoded vehicle of hubristic American arrogance. Something else entirely is happening, here. France has been deliberately cut out of the herd and publicly humiliated. That's not something that happens at random or in a vacuum.


From what I've looked at, the Australians weren't happy with the deal and went out looking for other options, rather than the Brits and Americans seeking it out. Seems likely they'll get a variant of British boats, with the Americans providing some equipment upgrades. Probably also with running the submarine bases, which will almost definitely provide berthing for American subs as well.
 
2021-09-18 3:30:25 PM  

Danack: Benevolent Misanthrope: Jesus, I knew the French had a reputation for being arrogant, entitled little bastards, but that really takes the biscuit.

You missed the part where the French company kept hiring away Australians with experience in submarines, in a pretty transparent attempt to make the Australian government be unable to rely on their own experts, even after the Australian government complained about that, and told the French to knock it off.

Also, the company (which the French government has a majority stake in) is in the process of delivering submarines to the French government on a fixed price contract, and those subs have allegedly not gone over budget.

And now that company was tring to balloon the cost of the Australian subs by an extra $20-30 billion.

If I was a suspicious person, I'd wonder if there had been some dodgy accounting going on, and the French subs were over-budget, and the company had run up debts hidden from public view, but the company was trying to move that debt to the Australians....


Yep.

This seems like what France was trying to do and Australia got sick of their shiat.

Frankly, I'd like Australia to go on the offensive here and explain what happened like France tries to explain how it is never wrong.
 
2021-09-18 3:32:24 PM  

StatelyGreekAutomaton: Space Banana Physicist: Lackadaisical French business culture, Australian emphasis on propriety and punctiliousness, UK opportunism  and predatory US arms manufacturers are not the whole story. They barely even comprise the surface of this story.

The US, Aus and UK didn't just fark over France for a single arms deal or a China-countering infrastructure plan. Even a $90B arms deal is still a rounding error in US terms. France - from which nation I am not much interested in hearing criticism of NATO; oh, are they in this week? how nice - has spent decades playing fast and loose with the alliance.

Does it suit French commercial interests? Then it is a vital component of European security. Is it causing problems for their Iraqi, Libyan and Iranian reactor deals? Is it complicating their arms trade with Russia and China? Then it is a tyrannical, outmoded vehicle of hubristic American arrogance. Something else entirely is happening, here. France has been deliberately cut out of the herd and publicly humiliated. That's not something that happens at random or in a vacuum.

From what I've looked at, the Australians weren't happy with the deal and went out looking for other options, rather than the Brits and Americans seeking it out. Seems likely they'll get a variant of British boats, with the Americans providing some equipment upgrades. Probably also with running the submarine bases, which will almost definitely provide berthing for American subs as well.


Indeed. But the public farking is a message. One I assume it's senders and recipients understand even if the rest of us do not.

Was Macron too chummy with Twumpy and Putin? Is Naval Group compromised eight ways from Sunday by Chinese or Russian operatives? Is France in no-longer-secret foreign policy discussions elsewhere?

Any or all - along with many others - are possible. Another twelve boats with English-speaking captains aren't worth it on their own. Not even in the western pacific.
 
2021-09-18 3:32:44 PM  
Hey thanks guys!

I am now completely convinced this was entirely the fault of the French, especially after Australia discovered the most classified military secret of the entire French defense industry - that the French take most of August off for summer holidays.  I mean who knew that???????

For farks sake, get a grip.  The Australians were sweet talked by a better deal (yes, a better deal) from the US. The Brits decided to exploit either the "Australia used to be our prison colony" or the "Please America, we'll keep licking your balls" clause and jumped on the band wagon.

At no time while pulling the US/UK defense contractors off their dicks, did anyone consider how to handle the political dimension of this deal.  It was always going to be a massive clusterfark, but the Biden administration said "Hey, get me that guy who planned the Afghanistan withdrawal in here, he's not busy, I need him to make a press announcement about a military sale".

By all means continue to demonstrate your pig-shiat ignorance about the French, but at least try and recognize a political abortion when it happens*.

*Not valid in Texas.
 
2021-09-18 3:33:29 PM  

StatelyGreekAutomaton: I can understand the Australians cancelling the French contract and going with the American/British offer instead, but it's still a dick move to give essentially no notice. However, as they say in a country I can't quite remember, c'est la vie.


France has been acting the same way toward Oz for years now, showing up late to meetings, etc.. They can dish it out but not take it.
 
2021-09-18 3:34:07 PM  

gameshowhost: Benevolent Misanthrope: Lsherm: Also, not incidentally, France was only offering diesel submarines. The US and UK are offering nuclear ones. If you're going over budget anyway, you may as well get the newer technology.

Exactly.  I said in another thread - France was offering them a 2013 Renault for $50K, because that's the best deal the Aussies could get at any price.  Which over time became $85K and oh by the way the wipers don't work.  Oh - and now that we have a contract, we should mention the floor pan is rusted.  And you don't really need a heater, do you?

The US came in and quoted them the a new, fully loaded Chevy Tahoe for $85K.  What do you think the Aussies are going to do?

if it'd have been the Twizy F1, sign me up

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/twizy/66284/renault-twizy-f1-review


Nah, we're talking a 2013 Twingo D7F.
 
2021-09-18 3:35:00 PM  

Danack: DrD'isInfotainment: Also, being nuclear instead of diesel comes down to a detection issue, which, given Chinese rapid advancement in tech might make diesel a real liability....

That is a complicated topic.

Diesel subs can be stealthier for short periods of time as nuclear subs reactors are always running, and so making noise. But nuclear subs can go and sit at depth in the middle of nowhwre for weeks or months.

My guess is that there has been quite a bit of wargaming going on, between the US, UK and Australian navies and the US pointed out that it would be far easier for them to integrate Australian ships into the US plans, if the Australians had subs similar in capability to the US subs, rather than having quite different capabilities.


Also the Australians will be operating in the much larger Pacific where a broader range will be more useful
 
2021-09-18 3:37:15 PM  

I'm an excellent driver: Hey thanks guys!

I am now completely convinced this was entirely the fault of the French, especially after Australia discovered the most classified military secret of the entire French defense industry - that the French take most of August off for summer holidays.  I mean who knew that???????

For farks sake, get a grip.  The Australians were sweet talked by a better deal (yes, a better deal) from the US. The Brits decided to exploit either the "Australia used to be our prison colony" or the "Please America, we'll keep licking your balls" clause and jumped on the band wagon.

At no time while pulling the US/UK defense contractors off their dicks, did anyone consider how to handle the political dimension of this deal.  It was always going to be a massive clusterfark, but the Biden administration said "Hey, get me that guy who planned the Afghanistan withdrawal in here, he's not busy, I need him to make a press announcement about a military sale".

By all means continue to demonstrate your pig-shiat ignorance about the French, but at least try and recognize a political abortion when it happens*.

*Not valid in Texas.


I tried to ask a French guy I know whether it was France's fault but he takes a really long time to reply to texts.
 
2021-09-18 3:39:20 PM  

StatelyGreekAutomaton: I can understand the Australians cancelling the French contract and going with the American/British offer instead, but it's still a dick move to give essentially no notice. However, as they say in a country I can't quite remember, c'est la vie.


It wasn't even close to "no notice"
 
2021-09-18 3:39:39 PM  

I'm an excellent driver: I am now completely convinced this was entirely the fault of the French, especially after Australia discovered the most classified military secret of the entire French defense industry - that the French take most of August off for summer holidays.  I mean who knew that???????


It seems that Australia is implying the French are incapable of fulfilling contracts. Or working like adults. Or working with strategic partners.

"Better deal" it is, but France reneged on the original deal.

When you do that, you don't get to cry for being dumped.
 
2021-09-18 3:43:38 PM  

Space Banana Physicist: France has been deliberately cut out of the herd and publicly humiliated. That's not something that happens at random or in a vacuum.


Like, maybe somebody spilled borscht on the blueprints?
 
2021-09-18 3:49:43 PM  

tricycleracer: Le sigh.


Le soupire.
 
2021-09-18 3:50:44 PM  

StatelyGreekAutomaton: Space Banana Physicist: Lackadaisical French business culture, Australian emphasis on propriety and punctiliousness, UK opportunism  and predatory US arms manufacturers are not the whole story. They barely even comprise the surface of this story.

The US, Aus and UK didn't just fark over France for a single arms deal or a China-countering infrastructure plan. Even a $90B arms deal is still a rounding error in US terms. France - from which nation I am not much interested in hearing criticism of NATO; oh, are they in this week? how nice - has spent decades playing fast and loose with the alliance.

Does it suit French commercial interests? Then it is a vital component of European security. Is it causing problems for their Iraqi, Libyan and Iranian reactor deals? Is it complicating their arms trade with Russia and China? Then it is a tyrannical, outmoded vehicle of hubristic American arrogance. Something else entirely is happening, here. France has been deliberately cut out of the herd and publicly humiliated. That's not something that happens at random or in a vacuum.

From what I've looked at, the Australians weren't happy with the deal and went out looking for other options, rather than the Brits and Americans seeking it out. Seems likely they'll get a variant of British boats, with the Americans providing some equipment upgrades. Probably also with running the submarine bases, which will almost definitely provide berthing for American subs as well.


If the Australians are going to build Astute class boats there will be no need for upgrades as the Astutes are equivalent of the latest block Virginia's. Only major difference is the lack of VLS and a smaller missile load on the Astutes. Both of which help make the Astutes cheaper.
 
2021-09-18 3:50:55 PM  
I get a month paid vacation every year, on paper at least. I'm lucky most years to get 2 weeks.

/I think 30 days paid vacation a year should be standard.
//I'm about 80 days in the hole still and I'm on vacation kicking it on the California central coast right now.
 
2021-09-18 3:51:41 PM  

fo_sho!: Budget overruns! On a defense contract! That's like the pope shiatting in the woods....

The "geopolitical war novel" part of my brain thinks we are hooking the aussies up with more than just subs. We see them as our Cuba against China. These subs become surveillance assets for the US and why not give each one a Nuke or 4.


We are! Since they're using US tech they'll be building out maintenance and repair facilities that will be capable of servicing the US submarine fleet as well
 
2021-09-18 3:55:45 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: So, let me make sure I understand.

Your company doesn't want to do business according to the contract.  You keep f*cking with them, lessening your deliverables and upping their costs to the tune of double by the end of it, probably.  Or more.  It's been 5 years, and you're still not clear on the relationship (which means the original deal for technology is completely obsolete). You expect the local company to adapt to your employees' traditional month-long vacation.  Your people working at the client site show up late for meetings in a culture where punctuality is valued.  Your workers biatch that the clients don't "understand" their "need" for long lunches.  Basically, you ignore the business culture you're working in and expect the client to adapt to you, at their own cost.

Jesus, I knew the French had a reputation for being arrogant, entitled little bastards, but that really takes the biscuit.  Looks to me like Australia put up with a huge amount of bullshiat before pulling the plug.


One thing I've tried to relate to people what it's like to work in France. One could argue, and not in bad faith, that it is better for people being healthy. Kind of like it's hard to argue against the Italians spending hours to eat, say, dinner.

I can't say it is unhealthy to expect long lunches or vacations.
 
2021-09-18 4:02:24 PM  

jjorsett: By 2021, Naval Group had downgraded that figure to 60%, and had reportedly indicated that it could be downgraded further still, according to Politico.

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2021-09-18 4:02:48 PM  

qorkfiend: fo_sho!: Budget overruns! On a defense contract! That's like the pope shiatting in the woods....

The "geopolitical war novel" part of my brain thinks we are hooking the aussies up with more than just subs. We see them as our Cuba against China. These subs become surveillance assets for the US and why not give each one a Nuke or 4.

We are! Since they're using US tech they'll be building out maintenance and repair facilities that will be capable of servicing the US submarine fleet as well


They already have that, more or less. US subs make port in Australia a lot.
 
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