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(Guardian)   Bitcoin is a broken window fallacy   (theguardian.com) divider line
    More: Facepalm, Ecological footprint, Computer, single bitcoin transaction, Solving the E-waste Problem, Application-specific integrated circuit, Integrated circuit, amount of electronic waste, Printed circuit board  
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4954 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Sep 2021 at 11:20 AM (11 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-09-17 10:56:55 AM  
Bitcoin, illustrated:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-17 11:22:12 AM  
Crypto is just a scam by big silicon to sell more silicon.
 
2021-09-17 11:24:18 AM  
Wished I had invested in Bitcoin. But was sure it was a scam doomed to fail.
 
2021-09-17 11:25:26 AM  
Iphones?  I use those to ignite my Bugatti Veyron when I need to impress with conspicuous consumption.
 
2021-09-17 11:25:43 AM  
Your blog sucks.
 
2021-09-17 11:26:01 AM  

stuffy: Wished I had invested in Bitcoin. But was sure it was a scam doomed to fail.


It is
 
2021-09-17 11:28:00 AM  
Cryptocurrencies suck. People who mine them are greedy, selfish dicks. Yes, you too.
 
2021-09-17 11:28:51 AM  

Intrepid00: Crypto is just a scam by big silicon to sell more silicon.


Which is weird given they can't even keep up with current orders.
 
2021-09-17 11:28:53 AM  
WilderKWight:

This MASSIVE Influencer Scam Just Got Worse...
Youtube Kv6ne6VQCZI
 
2021-09-17 11:30:42 AM  
Crypto currency is fiat currency without the fiat. It's like collecting Franklin Mint limited edition Princess Diana medallions. It has value only to other people who consider it to have value.
 
2021-09-17 11:31:38 AM  
I wish I understood currency in general, let alone crypto-currency.

I've read a bunch of things, and understand many concepts (compound interest, return on investment etc), but the concept of a fiat currency as a whole feels made up, and we're all living a lie.

If currency were tied to something like energy input and entropy output, it would probably make some sense.
 
2021-09-17 11:32:51 AM  

mofa: Crypto currency is fiat currency without the fiat. It's like collecting Franklin Mint limited edition Princess Diana medallions. It has value only to other people who consider it to have value.


Wait, isn't, "it has value because people think it does" the very definition of fiat?
 
2021-09-17 11:34:04 AM  

stuffy: Wished I had invested in Bitcoin. But was sure it was a scam doomed to fail.


It was until it wasn't, just like the 10,000 similar operations that failed to catch on.
 
2021-09-17 11:35:22 AM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: Intrepid00: Crypto is just a scam by big silicon to sell more silicon.

Which is weird given they can't even keep up with current orders.


Sounds like to me the plan is working.
 
2021-09-17 11:35:30 AM  

ajgeek: I wish I understood currency in general


It is an abstract representation of power.  It controls people - you use it to get other people to do things for you or to give you things, you get it by doing things for other people or giving them things.
 
2021-09-17 11:36:43 AM  

ajgeek: mofa: Crypto currency is fiat currency without the fiat. It's like collecting Franklin Mint limited edition Princess Diana medallions. It has value only to other people who consider it to have value.

Wait, isn't, "it has value because people think it does" the very definition of fiat?


Not quite. State currencies are managed and backed up by their nations.
 
2021-09-17 11:37:08 AM  

mofa: Crypto currency is fiat currency without the fiat. It's like collecting Franklin Mint limited edition Princess Diana medallions. It has value only to other people who consider it to have value.


coinweek.comView Full Size
 
2021-09-17 11:38:40 AM  

stuffy: Wished I had invested in Bitcoin. But was sure it was a scam doomed to fail.


1: just because it is a scam does not mean it is "doomed to fail." Just means some in the mix are the paying suckers, and the others are the parasites that prey upon them. And so those that are in the know are the example of just how shiatty humans can be.

2: and had you, then there you would be among them. Either one of the suckers that didn't get the message about timing of to get in and when to get out. Or worse, you'd actually be one of the parasite.


See, does not matter if there was monye to be had or not. Plenty of those who get the money are still poorer for it, and have made us all poorer for it along the way. When immoral people succeeded, we all lose.
 
2021-09-17 11:41:50 AM  

ajgeek: I wish I understood currency in general, let alone crypto-currency.

I've read a bunch of things, and understand many concepts (compound interest, return on investment etc), but the concept of a fiat currency as a whole feels made up, and we're all living a lie.

If currency were tied to something like energy input and entropy output, it would probably make some sense.


I view it as barter facilitated by a standard unit. Easier to work for units than goods not particularly wanted that would then take effort to store or trade for what is wanted.
 
2021-09-17 11:42:59 AM  
 
2021-09-17 11:44:34 AM  
Meanwhile I invested in Bitecoin.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-09-17 11:46:26 AM  

stuffy: Wished I had invested in Bitcoin. But was sure it was a scam doomed to fail.


Same. Back in the early 2010's we were talking about it at work and we were all sure it was going to fail. Man were we wrong. And the worst part is I actually had a decent pile of spare cash to invest. I ran a calculator recently for how much money I'd have made if I had invested the five grand back in 2012 and I cried. A lot. $40M changes things.
 
2021-09-17 11:46:47 AM  

Lord Bear: Basically it comes down to the fact that since bitcoin's energy usage is easy to quantify, its easy to pick on and unfairly so.


Comparing christmas lights energy usage over an entire season to the energy used to actual make BTC transactions is why we call "lying."

What is the energy cost per transaction in BTC vs. such in USD, GBP, EUR, RMB, etc?

Oh. Not doing that comparison, are we?
 
2021-09-17 11:50:58 AM  

PartTimeBuddha: ajgeek: mofa: Crypto currency is fiat currency without the fiat. It's like collecting Franklin Mint limited edition Princess Diana medallions. It has value only to other people who consider it to have value.

Wait, isn't, "it has value because people think it does" the very definition of fiat?

Not quite. State currencies are managed and backed up by their nations.


Exactly. In the U.S., the only currency is the U.S. dollar. There are a few stores and companies that will barter their goods for Bitcoin (with possibly ambiguous collection of sales taxes which may have criminal implications). I hope that cryptocurrency holders know this.
 
2021-09-17 11:53:30 AM  

alitaki: Same. Back in the early 2010's we were talking about it at work and we were all sure it was going to fail. Man were we wrong. And the worst part is I actually had a decent pile of spare cash to invest. I ran a calculator recently for how much money I'd have made if I had invested the five grand back in 2012 and I cried. A lot. $40M changes things.


There are stocks that could have given you that return. Betting the right way on a couple of countless sporting events could have given you that return. Just a pair of balls and a big lukcy run on a craps table could do it.

Its easy to look back and say i should have, and you probably had valid reasons at the time for not. That same hesitation saved you from going broke during the beanie baby craze, or from baseball cards, or from countless other shiat.

Most crypto is just going to be playing the lottery from this point forward. The ones that will be truly useful are ones that are going to have stable value.

I laugh when you see stuff like, "Oh the movie theater is going to take bitcoin!". How the hell do you process a currency that swings in full percentage points in the course of seconds all day long.
 
2021-09-17 11:54:42 AM  

Lord Bear: I'm on vacation today and don't have time to argue with idiots on the internet, but here are some counterpoints for you will ignore.

Basically it comes down to the fact that since bitcoin's energy usage is easy to quantify, its easy to pick on and unfairly so.

https://phys.org/news/2018-08-energy-b​itcoin.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NbBkn​QJgNI&list=PLWqLDlmbkUenjJ_QtJ2Gg0Rwtq​HLtuS3K&t=3s

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bitc​oin-energy-usage-cleaner-every-1329557​95.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR​0cHM6Ly93d3cucmVkZGl0LmNvbS8&guce_refe​rrer_sig=AQAAAIDEyZ-nxhDXQ5uQSQL0Bpy9F​B-AMn6wb_ZkUtz70WnRq40cB85i5II-8h-qbEN​0CNDidd1ZKuucJLTzEeRohthp9mu6I9Ac1skWg​U8IiZdccSxgOaARIuuDYo4z6bLkXAB9ZZIqJ1t​A6ai2E8iHR6vfyS_0MsY5fZTK04FNoBabhttps​://www.theguardian.com/environment/202​1/sep/07/20-meat-and-dairy-firms-emit-​more-greenhouse-gas-than-germany-brita​in-or-francehttps://phys.org/news/2015​-12-christmas-energy-entire-countries.​html


Yeah, the energy usage isn't the problem, it's miners buying up all the video cards and making the existing supply limitations worse.
 
2021-09-17 11:55:18 AM  
I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account:

Oh. Not doing that comparison, are we?

Sure why not.  Someone did the math in a previous thread.  Creating a roll of dimes (mining, smelting, stamping and transporting) is the same as processing a bitcoin block (multiple transactions).  Now think of all the coinage out there in the world.  Don't pretend for a second that money in any form is energy independent.

The Christmas lights analogy is apt.  Ivo likes to point out that bitcoin uses in a year the same amount of energy as Argentina does in a year.  Yearly Christmas light usage in the US alone is the same as Tanzania or Ethiopia in a year.  That's apples to apples.  Its not lying and its a reasonable comparison.
 
2021-09-17 11:55:48 AM  

mofa: Crypto currency is fiat currency without the fiat. It's like collecting Franklin Mint limited edition Princess Diana medallions. It has value only to other people who consider it to have value.


Unfortunately, that "who consider it..." list includes enough billionaires and Wall Street weenies that cryptocurrency is worth real money. It isn't going away any time soon. The best we can do is to try to move it away from proof-of-waste algorithms like Bitcoin and toward proof-of-stake systems like Ethereum 2. It's still inefficient and wasteful, but not at a whole-nation scale of energy consumption.
 
2021-09-17 11:56:05 AM  
If you had bought in really early, it would have wound up being a pretty solid investment. The only reason to speculate on it, though, would have been if you were a drug dealer buying large quantities of things off the former Silk Road and saw the value there. You'd have eventually outpaced your drug sale earnings by the gains BTC made over time. 

So I mean, you do you. It would have been pretty incredible to get in at the beginning and dump late last year or something, but I've got mouths to feed and ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
 
2021-09-17 11:56:49 AM  
UNC_Samurai:

Yeah, the energy usage isn't the problem, it's miners buying up all the video cards and making the existing supply limitations worse.

I think most of us can agree wasting massive amounts of energy is a bit of a bigger problem than you not being able to play doom in 8k @ 120FPS
 
2021-09-17 11:56:50 AM  
How many bitcoins equal one Schrute Buck?
 
2021-09-17 11:57:49 AM  
i.ytimg.comView Full Size
 
2021-09-17 11:58:14 AM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: Lord Bear: Basically it comes down to the fact that since bitcoin's energy usage is easy to quantify, its easy to pick on and unfairly so.

Comparing christmas lights energy usage over an entire season to the energy used to actual make BTC transactions is why we call "lying."

What is the energy cost per transaction in BTC vs. such in USD, GBP, EUR, RMB, etc?

Oh. Not doing that comparison, are we?


It would be trivially easy to do.  The production cost of most currency is a known. A dollar bill costs just over 6 cents to make.  So, how much Bitcoin is mined per average transaction, and what is the value of Bitcoin in dollars.  Note, that individual dollar bills are only about 30% of bills made, and the costs of each bill go up, but not as fast as the denominations do, so the value of 1 Bitcoin is going to fluctuate depending upon how the bank turns it into real money.

Also, I'm not sure if you are aware, but electricity is generally paid for, which means it has a dollar value.  You can also look at the electricity requirements for an average transaction and compare it to the cost of making the equivalent amount of dollars.
 
2021-09-17 11:58:16 AM  
Because miners are buying up computer equipment, my son has a 2.5 month wait for a new laptop. Insane.
 
2021-09-17 11:59:18 AM  

mofa: PartTimeBuddha: ajgeek: mofa: Crypto currency is fiat currency without the fiat. It's like collecting Franklin Mint limited edition Princess Diana medallions. It has value only to other people who consider it to have value.

Wait, isn't, "it has value because people think it does" the very definition of fiat?

Not quite. State currencies are managed and backed up by their nations.

Exactly. In the U.S., the only currency is the U.S. dollar. There are a few stores and companies that will barter their goods for Bitcoin (with possibly ambiguous collection of sales taxes which may have criminal implications). I hope that cryptocurrency holders know this.


And the government printing 2x the money supply in the last 2 years is only devaluing your money.  Literally the sharp rise in prices is not the prices going up but the value of a dollars buying power going down.  Ask Zimbabwe about just printing more money doesnt make more money...it makes all of the money worth less than before.  Thats the thing about Bitcoin with a hard limit supply it cannot be created out of thin air just to make more and in turn worth less value.  Thats why you can now buy $47,500 dollars per Bitcoin.

The government is just printing away your savings.
/saying a fiat is backed by a nation such as the US...lets clarify that...its backed by Nukes....because there is no way in hell the US is every paying off its national debt.
 
2021-09-17 12:01:12 PM  
UNC_Samurai:
Yeah, the energy usage isn't the problem, it's miners buying up all the video cards and making the existing supply limitations worse.

Bitcoin miners haven't used video cards in 5 or 6 years.  Your information is very old.

There is a global worldwide shortage and supply chain issues in electronics at the moment.  No one is mining bitcoin on car computers and they basically don't exist at the moment either.  The miners don't have any sort of special pipeline to the video card manufacturers.

Miners are a convenient scapegoat, but not at the heart of the problem.  They are only getting 5-10% of the cards out there, and with ethereum going proof of stake soon, they aren't being bought by miners pretty much at all anymore.  The ROI isn't there.
 
2021-09-17 12:01:29 PM  
I don't know what a broken window fallacy is in terms of finance so I'll just go off of this:

Monty Python People Falling Out Of High Buildings
Youtube 8FTHM_GVVlM
 
2021-09-17 12:02:01 PM  

yakmans_dad: Because miners are buying up computer equipment, my son has a 2.5 month wait for a new laptop. Insane.


I mean I just went to a local computer store that was family owned and bought a gaming computer cash in hand just because the big box stores were out, but okay. People aren't using laptop chipsets for mining as far as I know; in fact they're using purpose built rigs now that aren't even using GPUs or whatever.

COVID causing issues in the supply chain didn't help, of course. But I mean I could just literally drive back down the street and buy a brand new laptop if I needed another one.
 
2021-09-17 12:02:06 PM  

yakmans_dad: Because miners are buying up computer equipment, my son has a 2.5 month wait for a new laptop. Insane.


Why does he need a laptop, he's just gonna play Doom on it.

/what some Farkers apparently believe
 
2021-09-17 12:04:49 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: Lord Bear: Basically it comes down to the fact that since bitcoin's energy usage is easy to quantify, its easy to pick on and unfairly so.

Comparing christmas lights energy usage over an entire season to the energy used to actual make BTC transactions is why we call "lying."

What is the energy cost per transaction in BTC vs. such in USD, GBP, EUR, RMB, etc?

Oh. Not doing that comparison, are we?


Transaction cost for dollars is essentially nothing compared to BTC.
 
2021-09-17 12:06:30 PM  
techcrunch.comView Full Size
 
2021-09-17 12:12:47 PM  
Crypto currency gives me a farm feeling...

Late at night, in the winter, as I warm myself with the cryptomining machines because I'm spending all my money on electricity trying to cool the datacenter I built in my basement.
 
2021-09-17 12:18:07 PM  
It's also really convenient for neckbeards who are looking to purchase little boys and girls to tie up in their basements.
 
2021-09-17 12:18:26 PM  
Beanie Babies must have their original Ty authenticity tag on them, but still beware! Some people affix counterfeit tags on them, which may render your Beanie Babies worthless to people who buy Beanie Babies!
 
2021-09-17 12:22:09 PM  

gameshowhost: It's also really convenient for neckbeards who are looking to purchase little boys and girls to tie up in their basements.


And heroin! Don't forget the heroin! Really, don't bother showing your face if you don't got it.
 
2021-09-17 12:24:10 PM  

Intrepid00: Crypto is just a scam by big silicon to sell more silicon.


Windows is a scam by MS to gather user data
 
2021-09-17 12:24:39 PM  

stuffy: Wished I had invested in Bitcoin. But was sure it was a scam doomed to fail.


Its been failing for 12 years now
 
2021-09-17 12:25:40 PM  
Just print less money so bitcoin isn't attractive.  Or print more money.  Make bitcoin illegal.

Problem solved.
 
2021-09-17 12:25:45 PM  

Linux_Yes: Intrepid00: Crypto is just a scam by big silicon to sell more silicon.

Windows is a scam by MS to gather user data


Are we just naming random scams now?

I want to try!

McDonalds is just a scam to dispose of low quality meat byproduct.
 
2021-09-17 12:25:48 PM  

Intrepid00: stuffy: Wished I had invested in Bitcoin. But was sure it was a scam doomed to fail.

It is


Bitcoin has been failing for 12 years now

Ethereum has been failing for 6 years
 
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