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(Onion AV Club)   John Oliver reflects on the 20-year war in Afghanistan, and he doesn't spare anybody from blame   (avclub.com) divider line
    More: Sad, Afghanistan, John Oliver, Afghan refugees, last week's Last Week Tonight, Taliban, Barack Obama, Pakistan, President Joe Biden's support  
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1813 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Aug 2021 at 6:50 PM (14 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-08-23 4:39:16 PM  
Even that one congresswoman who voted against the war?
 
2021-08-23 5:08:53 PM  

spongeboob: Even that one congresswoman who voted against the war?


Representative Barbera Lee.
 
2021-08-23 6:52:44 PM  
louderthanwar.comView Full Size
 
2021-08-23 6:52:50 PM  
No President has made genocide prevention a priority and no President has suffered politically for his indifference to its occurrence.
 
2021-08-23 6:55:02 PM  

aaronx: spongeboob: Even that one congresswoman who voted against the war?

Representative Barbera Lee.


Her bravery and commitment to her principles really deserves more recognition. She was the only person in all of Congress to vote against the AUMF. Even Bernie farking Sanders voted for that mess. And that was days after the 9/11 attacks, when the country was in full rabid nationalist mode.
 
2021-08-23 6:56:13 PM  
Who is there to spare from blame, other than Barbara Lee (whom he indeed does spare from blame)?
 
2021-08-23 6:57:26 PM  

aaronx: spongeboob: Even that one congresswoman who voted against the war?

Representative Barbera Lee.



And yet history still doesn't remember how to spell her name.
 
2021-08-23 6:58:51 PM  
Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.
 
2021-08-23 6:59:18 PM  
-t
 
2021-08-23 6:59:35 PM  
He and Seth Meyers were the only late night hosts I saw who said we absolutely need to give the refugees amnesty. We really f*cked them over.
 
2021-08-23 6:59:42 PM  

LordJiro: aaronx: spongeboob: Even that one congresswoman who voted against the war?

Representative Barbera Lee.

Her bravery and commitment to her principles really deserves more recognition. She was the only person in all of Congress to vote against the AUMF. Even Bernie farking Sanders voted for that mess. And that was days after the 9/11 attacks, when the country was in full rabid nationalist mode.


I'm curious who among those in Congress at the time is now willing to admit that their vote was a mistake.  I'm betting Sanders would concede that.  Who else would, though?  I can't recall all 500 some-odd people in Congress 20 years ago, so I'm not sure.
 
2021-08-23 7:00:29 PM  
It's unfortunate for the Afghan people but....we built a kleptocracy that was destined to collapse the moment we left. Instead of building a strong central government, we just paid everyone to stop fighting. No wonder nobody wanted to die for THAT.

There's a lot of blame to apportion, but I think that Joe did the correct thing. The Taliban was getting stronger again and the only thing that we really could have done was another surge.

How many more American lives is pride worth? How many more flag draped coffins? How many more lives destroyed by PTSD? How many more legs, arms and hands? How many more eyes? That's not even talking about the Afghans who would have been killed, maimed or orphaned during another surge
 
2021-08-23 7:00:29 PM  
Oliver also gave out the government-supplied suicide-prevention phone number (1-800-273-8255) to stress to service members in crisis that the now-obvious pointlessness of their years of sacrifice isn't their fault.

I would have been sent to Afghanistan, but I got badly hurt in training. I'll never walk normally again, and it was completely pointless.

20 years later, I still think of it as my fault; my failure, because in that world, reasons don't matter, only results.

I don't know what the guys who got hurt fighting are going through, but I would imagine it's more a sense of betrayal than shame.
 
2021-08-23 7:00:31 PM  
I'm pretty disappointed in how John Oliver misrepresented a statement from Biden to make him seem anti-refugee.

The portion of his Afghanistan segment about anti-refugee sentiment showed a clip of Tucker Carlson arguing against refugees, and then plays a clip of Biden saying "we don't have an obligation to the Afghanis that would necessitate us staying in Afghanistan indefinitely"

Except he cut out the second half of that statement to make it seem like Biden shares Tucker's stance on Afghan refugees.

I'd expect it from Fox, but I thought Oliver was better than that. How many people did he mislead with this? The only reason I caught it is because I happened to see that clip of Biden earlier that same day.
 
DVD
2021-08-23 7:04:55 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.


______________________________________​______

I gotta wonder about the folks that felt that nothing should have been done about 9/11 or that the 3000 people in the building deserved to be killed that way.

Probably the same kinds of folks that will see someone jump you, beat you half to death with a metal pipe, and then once the attacker is done, publicly condemn you for possibly giving your attacker a sore arm or even denting the pipe with your evil skull.
 
2021-08-23 7:06:14 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.


Saudi Arabia?
 
2021-08-23 7:11:45 PM  

Target Builder: Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.

Saudi Arabia?


Bombs or it didn't happen?
 
2021-08-23 7:12:35 PM  
One thing I took away from that segment is that if we really wanted to avoid this kind of flippant nation breaking we probably shouldn't have elected a tumbleweed like Biden.  Sorry...nominated.  Unseating Trump was kind of a foregone conclusion for most of us.
 
2021-08-23 7:14:27 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down.


It was the effing engineers all along!!

KILL THEM ALL!!
 
2021-08-23 7:17:52 PM  

gimmeafarkinname: Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down.

It was the effing engineers all along!!

KILL THEM ALL!!


Which Engineers?

/heh
 
2021-08-23 7:18:38 PM  

Ishkur: No President has made genocide prevention a priority and no President has suffered politically for his indifference to its occurrence.


US Presidents can't win in that front. We tried to intervine in Somalia... people supported it until Americans died. Now, the wisdom is no African interventions. So we pretend Rwanda wasn't happening. So the president gets in trouble for not intervening in Africa.

Same pattern in Balkans. President got criticized for taking too long to intervene and prevent massacres. Also, prompt intervention in Kosovo was a total wag the dog distraction.

Even if it is done without military intervention...Jimmy Carter got attacked for cutting military aid for Salvadoran fascist who murdered American nuns. Obama got trashed for threatening to cut foreign assistance to Egypt if they used violence against peaceful protesters. Then blamed because the Muslim Brotherhood won their democratic elections. Then blamed for coup that ended that.
 
2021-08-23 7:21:24 PM  
MOTHER FARKER I WAS 17 IN 2001

WHAT DID I HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF IT

Some of us were friggin children or new adults! I never voted for bush or any Republican! What else was I expected to do??
 
2021-08-23 7:22:20 PM  

DVD: Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.

______________________________________​______

I gotta wonder about the folks that felt that nothing should have been done about 9/11 or that the 3000 people in the building deserved to be killed that way.

Probably the same kinds of folks that will see someone jump you, beat you half to death with a metal pipe, and then once the attacker is done, publicly condemn you for possibly giving your attacker a sore arm or even denting the pipe with your evil skull.


I gotta wonder about the folks that agreed with the chosen targets that had little or nothing to do with 9/11
 
2021-08-23 7:23:53 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.


We could have pressured the Taliban to give up bin-Laden (as he was indeed hiding out in Afghanistan at the time). All we needed to do was actually provide our evidence that he orchestrated the attacks, and under even the Taliban's version of Islamic law, they would have been required to hand him over, as the 9/11 attacks violated even their rules about attacking non-Muslim civilians.

If they hadn't done so, we would have had a lot more leverage to pressure them, and potentially could have gotten more Muslim allies in the fight. But nope, Bush wanted his war, Congress (sans Barbara Lee) was too caught up in the rabid nationalistic frenzy to tell him 'no', and well, here we are.

/And of course, we should also have been pressuring the Hell out of Saudi Arabia. For a lot of reasons, really, even before 9/11. The fact that they're ungodly wealthy and control access to Mecca and Medina gives them immense influence, and they've used that influence to spread and empower extremist versions of Islam.
 
2021-08-23 7:24:06 PM  

Target Builder: Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.

Saudi Arabia?


And who was bombed and invaded?
 
Juc
2021-08-23 7:27:58 PM  
I don't think anybody leaves a 20 year war with a smile on their face
 
2021-08-23 7:28:15 PM  

anjin-san: I'm pretty disappointed in how John Oliver misrepresented a statement from Biden to make him seem anti-refugee.

The portion of his Afghanistan segment about anti-refugee sentiment showed a clip of Tucker Carlson arguing against refugees, and then plays a clip of Biden saying "we don't have an obligation to the Afghanis that would necessitate us staying in Afghanistan indefinitely"

Except he cut out the second half of that statement to make it seem like Biden shares Tucker's stance on Afghan refugees.

I'd expect it from Fox, but I thought Oliver was better than that. How many people did he mislead with this? The only reason I caught it is because I happened to see that clip of Biden earlier that same day.

That and not one mention of the real culprits. THE PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY (PNAC ― LGT most recent working Internet Wayback Machine archive of their site).
 
2021-08-23 7:28:18 PM  

Ringshadow: MOTHER FARKER I WAS 17 IN 2001

WHAT DID I HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF IT

Some of us were friggin children or new adults! I never voted for bush or any Republican! What else was I expected to do??


Does "fault" only apply if there was something you were expected to do, or also if there was something unexpected you could have done?

I suspect this is one of those "honor versus reputation" things.

That said, even if a broader sense applies those who were adults would seem to have had many more things they could have done than those who were children had.
 
2021-08-23 7:28:41 PM  

Ringshadow: MOTHER FARKER I WAS 17 IN 2001

WHAT DID I HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF IT

Some of us were friggin children or new adults! I never voted for bush or any Republican! What else was I expected to do??





Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-08-23 7:28:49 PM  

Puglio: Oliver also gave out the government-supplied suicide-prevention phone number (1-800-273-8255) to stress to service members in crisis that the now-obvious pointlessness of their years of sacrifice isn't their fault.

I would have been sent to Afghanistan, but I got badly hurt in training. I'll never walk normally again, and it was completely pointless.

20 years later, I still think of it as my fault; my failure, because in that world, reasons don't matter, only results.

I don't know what the guys who got hurt fighting are going through, but I would imagine it's more a sense of betrayal than shame.


Did you sign a contract & raise your right hand not knowing what the future would bring?  If so you have nothing to be ashamed about.  When you signed you handed the .gov a blank check.  They just happened to cash it in training.  Not your fault (maybe if you climbed up on top of the barracks with a bed sheet to show how 'airborne' you were...).  You offered to serve when many won't.  Sleep easy.

/unless you're like a (disowned) friend of the family. Big time 'I'm more patriotic than you' type.  Enlisted in the Army right after 9/11 (which I give her full credit for).  Tore up her knee on the hand over hand bars outside the mess hall.  Medical discharge.  Since then she's joined the VFW (I have a feeling that Grandpa got her in (he's legit)), gotten 'disabled veteran' tags for her car, never misses marching in any parade in the region, and is quick to tell you that 'she served her country & how dare you question that' even if all you did was ask if she wanted mustard on her hot dog.  One of the bigger POS' out there.  Shouldn't be too hard to guess the color of hat she wears everywhere
 
2021-08-23 7:29:01 PM  

LordJiro: Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.

We could have pressured the Taliban to give up bin-Laden (as he was indeed hiding out in Afghanistan at the time). All we needed to do was actually provide our evidence that he orchestrated the attacks, and under even the Taliban's version of Islamic law, they would have been required to hand him over, as the 9/11 attacks violated even their rules about attacking non-Muslim civilians.

If they hadn't done so, we would have had a lot more leverage to pressure them, and potentially could have gotten more Muslim allies in the fight. But nope, Bush wanted his war, Congress (sans Barbara Lee) was too caught up in the rabid nationalistic frenzy to tell him 'no', and well, here we are.

/And of course, we should also have been pressuring the Hell out of Saudi Arabia. For a lot of reasons, really, even before 9/11. The fact that they're ungodly wealthy and control access to Mecca and Medina gives them immense influence, and they've used that influence to spread and empower extremist versions of Islam.


Agreed. But I didn't need a paragraph to explain.

/However, some may
 
2021-08-23 7:29:33 PM  
The lesson is:

DON'T EVER DO SHIAT LIKE THIS AGAIN.

We've "won" ONE war:  WWII.  And that's because the Russians did the dirty work.

The only reason to do extended military engagements is if we're defending this country against attack.

That's it.
 
2021-08-23 7:30:40 PM  

aaronx: spongeboob: Even that one congresswoman who voted against the war?

Representative Barbera Lee.


Bill Maher gave her a shout out on his far superior show.

And now I think I should go. Also, again, I am not Bill Maher.
 
2021-08-23 7:32:05 PM  
Recoil Therapy: Tore up her knee on the hand over hand bars outside the mess hall during Basic.

FTFM
 
2021-08-23 7:34:08 PM  
Maybe we can keep this in mind for next time our "leaders" try to sell the American people ANOTHER war. And they sure as fark will, war profiteering is the best tax dollars to corporate greed machine this nation has outside of banking and stock markets.
 
2021-08-23 7:35:55 PM  

anjin-san: I'm pretty disappointed in how John Oliver misrepresented a statement from Biden to make him seem anti-refugee.

The portion of his Afghanistan segment about anti-refugee sentiment showed a clip of Tucker Carlson arguing against refugees, and then plays a clip of Biden saying "we don't have an obligation to the Afghanis that would necessitate us staying in Afghanistan indefinitely"

Except he cut out the second half of that statement to make it seem like Biden shares Tucker's stance on Afghan refugees.

I'd expect it from Fox, but I thought Oliver was better than that. How many people did he mislead with this? The only reason I caught it is because I happened to see that clip of Biden earlier that same day.


You're assuming that, since the GOP is irredeemably toxic, then everybody else is obligated to back the Democratic Party without ever asking anything about them.

If we're supposed to support somebody all the time without ever speaking out when they make mistakes or suggesting that they should improve on something, then we aren't supporting them, we're dating them.
 
2021-08-23 7:36:34 PM  

austerity101: Who is there to spare from blame, other than Barbara Lee (whom he indeed does spare from blame)?


Dating myself slightly, but I was in my late teens at the time and was against it, after Bush ended his term and we were still there and it was clear Obama wasn't going to actually eject either, I figured that was it, America will be there longer than I'll be alive.

I'm actually a little surprised we're leaving at all. There's still so many more bombs we can make to blow up brown people so the Military industrial complex can keep grifting.
 
2021-08-23 7:36:41 PM  

Your Hind Brain: DVD: Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.

______________________________________​______

I gotta wonder about the folks that felt that nothing should have been done about 9/11 or that the 3000 people in the building deserved to be killed that way.

Probably the same kinds of folks that will see someone jump you, beat you half to death with a metal pipe, and then once the attacker is done, publicly condemn you for possibly giving your attacker a sore arm or even denting the pipe with your evil skull.

I gotta wonder about the folks that agreed with the chosen targets that had little or nothing to do with 9/11


You have to be careful about historian's fallacy when assessing anyone's decision in 2001.

It's easy to look back today and say "Oh, yes, it's so obvious that X was from Saudi Arabia and today we can trace back the money from A to B to C"; today we can say Looking at these declassified documents we now know that the CIA was aware that there were agents within the Pakistani intelligence who knew this and that; but the question that has to be asked is what did people know FOR CERTAIN in October of 2001 when decisions were being made and votes taken, and what was only learned later.

Even then, it's easy to conflate what we know now about what was known then, and make a definitive statement that didn't exist at the time. Looking backward is very dangerous. A good example is the Phoenix Memo. It was not, as people like to pretend today, a clear statement that Saudi nationals were going to fly a plane into the WTC. It was instead a clear warning that several Saudis who had overstayed their visas had been traveling to flight schools in the West and Southwest seeking instruction on controlling passenger airlines in level flight only; which the analyst found highly suspicious and alarming and which needed immediate investigation.

So "wondering about folks" who agreed with the decision based on information at the time to attack a place where bin Laden and the al Qaeda leadership was believed to be (Tora Bora) based on two decades of review of documents and revision of timelines to infer who knew what when is going to further cloud already murky water.
 
2021-08-23 7:38:14 PM  

whidbey: The lesson is:

DON'T EVER DO SHIAT LIKE THIS AGAIN.

We've "won" ONE war:  WWII.  And that's because the Russians did the dirty work.

The only reason to do extended military engagements is if we're defending this country against attack.from a sovereign nation, rather than an extremist group

That's it.


FTFY. At worst, our response to 9/11 should have been to provide our evidence that al-Qaeda did it, then inform Afghanistan that we were going after that specific group based on said evidence. It should have been a relatively small operation, not a farking invasion, a horrendously pathetic (and half-assed even by those standards) attempt at 'nation-building', and a forever-war against a farking tactic.
 
2021-08-23 7:39:38 PM  

austerity101: LordJiro: aaronx: spongeboob: Even that one congresswoman who voted against the war?

Representative Barbera Lee.

Her bravery and commitment to her principles really deserves more recognition. She was the only person in all of Congress to vote against the AUMF. Even Bernie farking Sanders voted for that mess. And that was days after the 9/11 attacks, when the country was in full rabid nationalist mode.

I'm curious who among those in Congress at the time is now willing to admit that their vote was a mistake.  I'm betting Sanders would concede that.  Who else would, though?  I can't recall all 500 some-odd people in Congress 20 years ago, so I'm not sure.


If you knew anything about American politics, you would know that admitting you were once wrong is the ultimate and final proof that you are bad and should not be voted for.
 
2021-08-23 7:42:40 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Your Hind Brain: DVD: Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.

______________________________________​______

I gotta wonder about the folks that felt that nothing should have been done about 9/11 or that the 3000 people in the building deserved to be killed that way.

Probably the same kinds of folks that will see someone jump you, beat you half to death with a metal pipe, and then once the attacker is done, publicly condemn you for possibly giving your attacker a sore arm or even denting the pipe with your evil skull.

I gotta wonder about the folks that agreed with the chosen targets that had little or nothing to do with 9/11

You have to be careful about historian's fallacy when assessing anyone's decision in 2001.

It's easy to look back today and say "Oh, yes, it's so obvious that X was from Saudi Arabia and today we can trace back the money from A to B to C"; today we can say Looking at these declassified documents we now know that the CIA was aware that there were agents within the Pakistani intelligence who knew this and that; but the question that has to be asked is what did people know FOR CERTAIN in October of 2001 when decisions were being made and votes taken, and what was only learned later.

Even then, it's easy to conflate what we know now about what was known then, and make a definitive statement that didn't exist at the time. Looking backward is very dangerous. A good example is the Phoenix Memo. It was not, as people like to pretend today, a clear statement that Saudi nationals were going to fly a plane into the WTC. It was instead a clear warning that several Saudis who had overstayed their visas had been traveling to flight schools in the West and Southwest seeking instruction on controlling passenger airlines in level flight only; which the analyst found highly suspicious and alarming and which needed immediate investigation.

So "wondering about folks ...


Somebody named Condoleeza had the memo. So "wondering about the folks" indeed.
 
2021-08-23 7:43:33 PM  
Yeah bubut Robert O'Neill and his 9 guys
 
2021-08-23 7:44:05 PM  
John Oliver: 20 year war in Afghanistan is bad.

(Biden ends war)

John Oliver: Ending the war is bad, too.

Ain't no pleasing some people. I dig John Oliver, but sometimes he's a bit of a biatch.
 
2021-08-23 7:45:11 PM  

HerptheDerp: austerity101: Who is there to spare from blame, other than Barbara Lee (whom he indeed does spare from blame)?

Dating myself slightly, but I was in my late teens at the time and was against it, after Bush ended his term and we were still there and it was clear Obama wasn't going to actually eject either, I figured that was it, America will be there longer than I'll be alive.

I'm actually a little surprised we're leaving at all. There's still so many more bombs we can make to blow up brown people so the Military industrial complex can keep grifting.


I was in grad school, myself.  I meant among those in government at the time, not the citizenry.  We have no say in the country going to war--that's on Congress, and, even if we 100% voted for anti-war candidates, that's no guarantee that 1) they'd be elected and 2) they'd continue to be anti-war while in Congress.  The people are not to blame for this war--the government is.  Everyone who was involved in making the decision to start it.
 
2021-08-23 7:45:26 PM  

Recoil Therapy: Puglio: Oliver also gave out the government-supplied suicide-prevention phone number (1-800-273-8255) to stress to service members in crisis that the now-obvious pointlessness of their years of sacrifice isn't their fault.

I would have been sent to Afghanistan, but I got badly hurt in training. I'll never walk normally again, and it was completely pointless.

20 years later, I still think of it as my fault; my failure, because in that world, reasons don't matter, only results.

I don't know what the guys who got hurt fighting are going through, but I would imagine it's more a sense of betrayal than shame.

Did you sign a contract & raise your right hand not knowing what the future would bring?  If so you have nothing to be ashamed about.  When you signed you handed the .gov a blank check.  They just happened to cash it in training.  Not your fault (maybe if you climbed up on top of the barracks with a bed sheet to show how 'airborne' you were...).  You offered to serve when many won't.  Sleep easy.

/unless you're like a (disowned) friend of the family. Big time 'I'm more patriotic than you' type.  Enlisted in the Army right after 9/11 (which I give her full credit for).  Tore up her knee on the hand over hand bars outside the mess hall.  Medical discharge.  Since then she's joined the VFW (I have a feeling that Grandpa got her in (he's legit)), gotten 'disabled veteran' tags for her car, never misses marching in any parade in the region, and is quick to tell you that 'she served her country & how dare you question that' even if all you did was ask if she wanted mustard on her hot dog.  One of the bigger POS' out there.  Shouldn't be too hard to guess the color of hat she wears everywhere


Thank you. No, I didn't do anything unusual to get hurt, my hip just couldn't take the abuse.

Gods, I'd never march in a parade. I'm a disabled vet, but if you go around advertising it like that, people assume you've been to war. It's like lying.
 
2021-08-23 7:46:02 PM  

whidbey: The lesson is:

DON'T EVER DO SHIAT LIKE THIS AGAIN.

We've "won" ONE war:  WWII.  And that's because the Russians did the dirty work.

The only reason to do extended military engagements is if we're defending this country against attack.

That's it.


The Russians did the dirty work because they wanted the spoils of war. They weren't there at Normandy. They didn't have nukes yet either. Yet.
 
2021-08-23 7:46:12 PM  
Who cares what John Oliver thinks? I haven't heard from 100 talking heads yet about what a tragedy it is? I already heard it.
And they're all being paid for having an opinion. Maybe they're part of the problem.
 
2021-08-23 7:46:55 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Your Hind Brain: DVD: Your Hind Brain: Buildings fell down. We knew who orchestrated this event and what his country of origin was.

Enought.Farking.Said.

______________________________________​______

I gotta wonder about the folks that felt that nothing should have been done about 9/11 or that the 3000 people in the building deserved to be killed that way.

Probably the same kinds of folks that will see someone jump you, beat you half to death with a metal pipe, and then once the attacker is done, publicly condemn you for possibly giving your attacker a sore arm or even denting the pipe with your evil skull.

I gotta wonder about the folks that agreed with the chosen targets that had little or nothing to do with 9/11

You have to be careful about historian's fallacy when assessing anyone's decision in 2001.

It's easy to look back today and say "Oh, yes, it's so obvious that X was from Saudi Arabia and today we can trace back the money from A to B to C"; today we can say Looking at these declassified documents we now know that the CIA was aware that there were agents within the Pakistani intelligence who knew this and that; but the question that has to be asked is what did people know FOR CERTAIN in October of 2001 when decisions were being made and votes taken, and what was only learned later.

Even then, it's easy to conflate what we know now about what was known then, and make a definitive statement that didn't exist at the time. Looking backward is very dangerous. A good example is the Phoenix Memo. It was not, as people like to pretend today, a clear statement that Saudi nationals were going to fly a plane into the WTC. It was instead a clear warning that several Saudis who had overstayed their visas had been traveling to flight schools in the West and Southwest seeking instruction on controlling passenger airlines in level flight only; which the analyst found highly suspicious and alarming and which needed immediate investigation.

So "wondering about folks ...


Then explain Barbara Lee and how extremely right she and everything she said was at the time.  Is this some kind of Cassandra complex, then?  Did she see the future that everyone else was barred from seeing?
 
2021-08-23 7:47:39 PM  
I'm still waiting to hear a right wing smoothbrain running their mouth about how farked up the country is now so I can ask them when they're leaving because if you don't love America no matter what, you're a dirty commie traitor that needs to Love It Or Leave It™. Everything old is new again.

Actually I probably won't ever do that in public. Don't want to get shot by an American Taliban jihadi that's all drunk on piss and self-righteousness because they were just asked for ID to buy booze or some other trivial thing.
 
2021-08-23 7:47:44 PM  

cryinoutloud: Who cares what John Oliver thinks? I haven't heard from 100 talking heads yet about what a tragedy it is? I already heard it.
And they're all being paid for having an opinion. Maybe they're part of the problem.


You know who else had an opinion........
 
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