Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Intercept)   Basic math says minimum wage should be $24 an hour   (theintercept.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Minimum wage, United States Senate, federal minimum wage, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Minimum wage in the United States, United States Congress, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, minimum wage  
•       •       •

1690 clicks; posted to Business » on 25 Jul 2021 at 8:45 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



168 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2021-07-25 4:42:49 PM  

Stibium: You can only squeeze so much from the employees, that CEO compensation has to come from somewhere.


Maybe they can get a minimum wage job or two to make ends meet. I'm told that's the responsible thing to do these days.
 
2021-07-25 4:46:18 PM  

BMFPitt: Mcavity: I'd like to see someone take out the top .05% and recalculate the median wage..

I find it incredibly fitting that someone posted this in a thread about basic math, and it got a bunch of smarts.


Best comment in thread. Too bad its too far down. :/
 
2021-07-25 5:01:03 PM  
Yes. Now that you know that wage slavery exists and that the money which should've gone to improve lower class & lower middle class incomes has been siphoned off them by the rich since the '80s, what, do you think, is going to be done about it?

Very farking little. The whole point of the $15 minimum wage isn't to correct the obvious inequity, but to set a new wage slavery standard. Until the minimum wage is somehow tied to the GDP in a meaningful way - ideally through a guaranteed basic income - raising it even to $15 an hour is a shallow gesture meant to mollify, not mitigate. The theater around raising the minimum wage is meant to make you thankful for it. That's it.
 
2021-07-25 5:03:27 PM  
Until high tide lifts all boats, a lot of folks will continue to drown so a few can have yachts.
 
2021-07-25 5:23:12 PM  

austerity101: Like, what does "too high" as a minimum wage even mean? What are you afraid of, that poor people won't be so poor any more?


They think most minimum wage workers are teenagers, when the truth is most minimum wage workers are actually adults, many of whom are trying to support their families.

"An old English judge once said: 'Necessitous men are not free men.' Liberty requires opportunity to make a living -- a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor, other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

[...]

The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the Government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the Government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the Government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1936 Democratic National Convention

https://millercenter.org/the-presiden​c​y/presidential-speeches/june-27-1936-d​emocratic-national-convention
 
2021-07-25 5:44:42 PM  

kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?


How much does a Big Mac cost in those socialist shiatholes like Norway?
 
2021-07-25 5:57:03 PM  

majestic: kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?

How much does a Big Mac cost in those socialist shiatholes like Norway?


Fark user imageView Full Size

Fark user imageView Full Size


What's going on at US McDonalds:

Fark user imageView Full Size


If crew members are paid the same, the cost is likely in the ballpark.
 
2021-07-25 5:59:44 PM  

austerity101: Like, what does "too high" as a minimum wage even mean? What are you afraid of, that poor people won't be so poor any more?


Economically, that's exactly the problem. Look at what having slightly extended protections over the pandemic did - suddenly a lot of people are refusing to do hard work, at long hours, for poor wages.

The economy of "cheap stuff" relies on cheap labor to provide it, not just overseas but cheap labor in manufacturing and services that cannot be provided overseas. The method of creating the cheap labor has been to destroy unions and worker protections. This had the added advantage that while wages stagnated, rents rose, forcing low wage workers to work longer hours, which meant more cheap goods and services.

So yes, the fear is poor people will be richer and richer people will be less rich. Although the economy isn't strictly zero sum, there is no question there is a trade-off between wages and costs, and between relative wages.
 
2021-07-25 6:00:37 PM  

edmo: Before the usual arguments start, just remember in the late 70s a regular guy could sell shoes and support a wife, two kids, and a mortgage payment.


Yeah but Al never could find food in the house and Peggy was still trying to "do" him.
 
2021-07-25 6:06:18 PM  

trialpha: natazha: trialpha: $24/hour for 40 hours, 52 weeks a year is just under $50k. Google tells me the median wage in the US is ~$51k.

Upping the minimum to what the median is now is going to cause a lot of issues. You'd hope it would result in everybody's wages going up accordingly, but somehow I doubt it would be that easy.

My wife has a Masters and her CPA, she makes just over $60K.  DRTFA, but whatever is being used for the calculation is garbage. Per the CPI, minimum wage should be around $15. Yes, some things have gone up more, others have gone up less.

This is exactly my point. If you just raise the minimum wage, why would someone bother with a job that requires extra training/education/responsibility when they can get paid roughly the same with a job that requires none of those things? You're going to end up with a severe labor disruption.

Ideally, all those other jobs would get their wages increased appropriately, but that would cut into corporate profits, and we can't have that.


I worked in a factory and made more with a 2 year than I ever made with my 4 year degree (over $50k). If I had kept it up, I would easily be over $60k. But I would also be working overtime in a factory, doing physical, dangerous work.

Strangely, people choose to do things, or not do things, for more reasons than money.
 
2021-07-25 6:24:44 PM  

majestic: kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?

How much does a Big Mac cost in those socialist shiatholes like Norway?


I was going to try and make that point earlier,   but looked it up first and found that the three countries that charge the most for Big Macs are Switzerland, Sweden, and Noway, and none of them has a national minimum wage, so I didn't post anything.

/I don't believe minimum wage actually affects the price of a Big Mac very much
 
2021-07-25 6:25:15 PM  

SanityIsAFullTimeJob: majestic: kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?

How much does a Big Mac cost in those socialist shiatholes like Norway?

[Fark user image 425x299]
[Fark user image 425x280]

What's going on at US McDonalds:

[Fark user image 425x163]

If crew members are paid the same, the cost is likely in the ballpark.


Not what I asked, but whatever. Don't know how accurate this is and I don't eat Big Macs:

https://www.globalprice.info/en/?p=st​a​tistics/bigmac
 
2021-07-25 6:27:41 PM  

SanityIsAFullTimeJob: If crew members are paid the same, the cost is likely in the ballpark.


It's really, really bizarre that anyone would think that labor costs are the biggest driver of different prices of a hamburger from one country to the next.
 
2021-07-25 6:44:42 PM  

Dr.Fey: majestic: kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?

How much does a Big Mac cost in those socialist shiatholes like Norway?

I was going to try and make that point earlier,   but looked it up first and found that the three countries that charge the most for Big Macs are Switzerland, Sweden, and Noway, and none of them has a national minimum wage, so I didn't post anything.

/I don't believe minimum wage actually affects the price of a Big Mac very much


They have these things called "unions". My Norwegian friend tells me that the effective minimum wage is about $20 US. She also doesn't eat Big Macs.
 
2021-07-25 6:47:53 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-25 6:49:20 PM  

majestic: Not what I asked, but whatever. Don't know how accurate this is and I don't eat Big Macs:

https://www.globalprice.info/en/?p=sta​tistics/bigmac


That jibes pretty closely with the one I found, FWIW.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/2​7​4326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a​-big-mac/
 
2021-07-25 6:53:08 PM  
Have Biden issue and EO stating that pay for everybody is $50 an hour.  No more, no less.  And no other forms of pay.  Also, for those unable or unwilling to work, have the government pay them $50 dollars an hour also.

Problem solved.
 
2021-07-25 6:54:40 PM  

majestic: They have these things called "unions". My Norwegian friend tells me that the effective minimum wage is about $20 US. She also doesn't eat Big Macs.


Yes, Norway does, but far fewer in Switzerland (about 20% density), which has more expensive Big Macs and no minimum wage.  I appreciate your single-source anecdote, and realize that Farkers are going to keep coming up with facts that fit their pre-conceived bias (which may or may not be correct).

Regardless, I am not disagreeing with you, but I still think that the correlation between Big Mac price and minimum wage is a lot less than most people believe.

I think we can make minimum wage in the U.S. $24 and the price of Big Macs might go up $.25
 
2021-07-25 6:55:45 PM  

Dr.Fey: edmo: Before the usual arguments start, just remember in the late 70s a regular guy could sell shoes and support a wife, two kids, and a mortgage payment.

I'm a little skeptical.

I'm not old enough to "remember" that, but since you are stating it as fact, is there any sort of citation?

Or is this hyperbole?

Marcos P: 40 hours a week in a factory could also support a family...

This sounds a little more realistic (although I note mortgage isn't mentioned).


Here are a few citations:
"When baby boomers hit a median age of 35 in 1990, they collectively owned 21% of the nation's wealth. (...) at a median age of 35, Gen Xers owned just 9% of the nation's wealth in 2008 - less than half what boomers had at that age (...) Boomers currently boast more than half (57%) of the nation's wealth, while Gen X owns just 16%, and millennials 3%."

Also this:
"Less than half (42%) of millennials are homeowners, per the report, compared to 48% of Gen Xers and 51% of baby boomers when they were the same age."

And finally this: .
"Specifically, median earnings for those 18 to 34 are lower than they were in the 1980s, a disparity that was first noted in a 2017 (...) That's in spite of overall higher education levels. Nearly 40% of millennials 25 to 37 have at least a bachelor's degree, compared to just a quarter of baby boomers and 30% of Gen X when they were the same age (...)"
 
2021-07-25 7:07:09 PM  

Dr.Fey: majestic: They have these things called "unions". My Norwegian friend tells me that the effective minimum wage is about $20 US. She also doesn't eat Big Macs.

Yes, Norway does, but far fewer in Switzerland (about 20% density), which has more expensive Big Macs and no minimum wage.  I appreciate your single-source anecdote, and realize that Farkers are going to keep coming up with facts that fit their pre-conceived bias (which may or may not be correct).

Regardless, I am not disagreeing with you, but I still think that the correlation between Big Mac price and minimum wage is a lot less than most people believe.

I think we can make minimum wage in the U.S. $24 and the price of Big Macs might go up $.25


Unions are strong in all Scandinavian countries. I would share what my friends in Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland and Finland have to say, but I don't have any friends in those countries. Not to mention two of those aren't Scandinavian.
 
2021-07-25 7:07:20 PM  

rustypouch: vpc: AsparagusFTW: every job from white collar to blue collar is on the line and soon.

I disagree. Every job that has repetitive, identical tasks that can be automated will increasingly see those changes. Jobs that are 100% repetitive and identical are on the line. Jobs that require critical thinking, decision making in rapidly changing circumstances, or telling the robots what to do are not.

I also disagree. I work jobs that cannot be automated. I'm outside building things in the summer, and teach people to ski in the winter.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-25 7:13:35 PM  

majestic: SanityIsAFullTimeJob: majestic: kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?

How much does a Big Mac cost in those socialist shiatholes like Norway?

[Fark user image 425x299]
[Fark user image 425x280]

What's going on at US McDonalds:

[Fark user image 425x163]

If crew members are paid the same, the cost is likely in the ballpark.

Not what I asked, but whatever. Don't know how accurate this is and I don't eat Big Macs:

https://www.globalprice.info/en/?p=sta​tistics/bigmac


I guess my point was that it doesn't look like there is much difference between what a burger flipper makes in Scandinavian utopia and hellish America.
 
2021-07-25 7:27:38 PM  

SanityIsAFullTimeJob: majestic: SanityIsAFullTimeJob: majestic: kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?

How much does a Big Mac cost in those socialist shiatholes like Norway?

[Fark user image 425x299]
[Fark user image 425x280]

What's going on at US McDonalds:

[Fark user image 425x163]

If crew members are paid the same, the cost is likely in the ballpark.

Not what I asked, but whatever. Don't know how accurate this is and I don't eat Big Macs:

https://www.globalprice.info/en/?p=sta​tistics/bigmac

I guess my point was that it doesn't look like there is much difference between what a burger flipper makes in Scandinavian utopia and hellish America.


Well, yeah. Except for about twice the hourly wage and stupid things like healthcare and vacations. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same.
 
2021-07-25 7:34:52 PM  

edmo: Before the usual arguments start, just remember in the late 70s a regular guy could sell shoes and support a wife, two kids, and a mortgage payment.


pbs.twimg.comView Full Size
 
2021-07-25 7:35:13 PM  

sleze: If $24 is just enough to live on in San Francisco, it is higher than needed in Pascagoula.  If $24 is just enough to live on in Pascagoula, it is no where near enough to live on in San Francisco.

There should be a national BASELINE minimum wage PLUS COLAs for specific areas.


Unless the federal government calculates them, the minimum wage in the south will be 75 ¢/hr
 
2021-07-25 7:38:52 PM  

kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?


If only it were possible to make more than 2 big macs an hour!

Salaries make a very small portion of the cost of doing business...   Your big mac may go up $0.20 -- if you think that's too expensive and it's not worth it to lift millions of people out of poverty, then you're absolutely part of the problem.
 
2021-07-25 7:43:27 PM  

majestic: SanityIsAFullTimeJob: majestic: SanityIsAFullTimeJob: majestic: kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?

How much does a Big Mac cost in those socialist shiatholes like Norway?

[Fark user image 425x299]
[Fark user image 425x280]

What's going on at US McDonalds:

[Fark user image 425x163]

If crew members are paid the same, the cost is likely in the ballpark.

Not what I asked, but whatever. Don't know how accurate this is and I don't eat Big Macs:

https://www.globalprice.info/en/?p=sta​tistics/bigmac

I guess my point was that it doesn't look like there is much difference between what a burger flipper makes in Scandinavian utopia and hellish America.

Well, yeah. Except for about twice the hourly wage and stupid things like healthcare and vacations. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same.


In my post, it shows a listing for Stockholm area McDonalds crew member at pay of about $11 USD. In my same post, it says pay for US crew members was being raised to $11-$17. That's not twice the hour wage.
 
2021-07-25 8:12:15 PM  

adamatari: I worked in a factory and made more with a 2 year than I ever made with my 4 year degree (over $50k). If I had kept it up, I would easily be over $60k. But I would also be working overtime in a factory, doing physical, dangerous work.


Yes, your physical, dangerous job paid more than an easier/safer job. As it should.

The problem is if if you increase the minimum wage too much, you suddenly have a bunch of physical, dangerous jobs, or jobs requiring lots of education, etc. being paid less than safer, easier jobs. You need to adjust the wages of the dangerous jobs as well, or your going to have problems.
 
2021-07-25 8:40:27 PM  

SanityIsAFullTimeJob: majestic: SanityIsAFullTimeJob: majestic: SanityIsAFullTimeJob: majestic: kdawg7736: Downside is do you want to pay $15 for a Big Mac?

How much does a Big Mac cost in those socialist shiatholes like Norway?

[Fark user image 425x299]
[Fark user image 425x280]

What's going on at US McDonalds:

[Fark user image 425x163]

If crew members are paid the same, the cost is likely in the ballpark.

Not what I asked, but whatever. Don't know how accurate this is and I don't eat Big Macs:

https://www.globalprice.info/en/?p=sta​tistics/bigmac

I guess my point was that it doesn't look like there is much difference between what a burger flipper makes in Scandinavian utopia and hellish America.

Well, yeah. Except for about twice the hourly wage and stupid things like healthcare and vacations. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same.

In my post, it shows a listing for Stockholm area McDonalds crew member at pay of about $11 USD. In my same post, it says pay for US crew members was being raised to $11-$17. That's not twice the hour wage.


OK. How much does that person in Sweden have to pay for health insurance? We surely should leave it up to the private market regarding wages. It's been great since forever.
 
2021-07-25 8:46:37 PM  

trialpha: adamatari: I worked in a factory and made more with a 2 year than I ever made with my 4 year degree (over $50k). If I had kept it up, I would easily be over $60k. But I would also be working overtime in a factory, doing physical, dangerous work.

Yes, your physical, dangerous job paid more than an easier/safer job. As it should.

The problem is if if you increase the minimum wage too much, you suddenly have a bunch of physical, dangerous jobs, or jobs requiring lots of education, etc. being paid less than safer, easier jobs. You need to adjust the wages of the dangerous jobs as well, or your going to have problems.


.....So?

It Just means that you'll have to pay the person who is risking their lives on your behalf more... And that you need to pay the person who is up to their elbows in your toilet cleaning it what they're actually worth, rather than the few bucks you've been getting away with until now.

"I don't want to be fair to you because then I would need to start being fair to all these other people too, so FARK ALL OF YOU!" doesn't exactly make you look like the knight in shining armor here. Calling essential workers "heroes" while patting yourself on the back for "recognizing" them is nothing but an insult.

You're literally advocating perpetuating institutional injustice so you won't be mildly inconvenienced yourself.
 
2021-07-25 8:47:52 PM  

OlderGuy: Chief Superintendent Lookout: OlderGuy: Higher wages = more automation = less jobs available..  vicious circle, indeed...

You know, the so-called "job creators" kept saying if wages were increased that automation would be more commonplace.  Notice how increased automation hasn't happened? It's all a BS scare tactic.

It is happening...


Yes it is .
 
2021-07-25 8:50:42 PM  
Fact: At no point since the inception of the minimum wage could someone working 40 hours a week support any more than a basic standard of living in a one-bedroom apartment with the bare essentials of living. At no point in time could someone support a family on minimum wage. At no point could someone afford to buy a house on minimum wage.

The initial minimum wage under FDR was the equivalent of $4/hr in 2021.

Now, this isn't to say it shouldn't be raised - it absolutely should be, but the idea that it needs to be raised to the equivalent of today's median wage is not just idiotic, it's revisionist history at its worst.
 
2021-07-25 8:55:54 PM  

trialpha: adamatari: I worked in a factory and made more with a 2 year than I ever made with my 4 year degree (over $50k). If I had kept it up, I would easily be over $60k. But I would also be working overtime in a factory, doing physical, dangerous work.

Yes, your physical, dangerous job paid more than an easier/safer job. As it should.

The problem is if if you increase the minimum wage too much, you suddenly have a bunch of physical, dangerous jobs, or jobs requiring lots of education, etc. being paid less than safer, easier jobs. You need to adjust the wages of the dangerous jobs as well, or your going to have problems.


Bullshiat.

The physical, dangerous jobs usually pay less. EMTs, nurses, firefighters, roofers, Amazon workers, warehouse and factory workers... They aren't paid as much as their supervisors, much less their VPs or CEO.

You will move those goalposts every time to defend an unconscionable wage that nobody can live on. Nobody who does the jobs that are necessary for society to work - the janitors, stockers, and cashiers - the "low skill" jobs - none of them will ever be worthy of a decent life to you and yours.

Because it's about status. It's about social hierarchy. It's about keeping people in the place they "deserve". That's why public housing couldn't be nice, and why it had to be left to rot then destroyed, while public housing in Singapore is high quality. That's why the minimum wage can never go up. That's why the US can't have universal healthcare, even though nearly every other advanced economy has it.

Nothing good is acceptable because "where will the money come from" while Jeff Bezos rides a dick into space.
 
2021-07-25 8:55:56 PM  
This is also the point in time where we all remark that every blue state - tomorrow - could raise their minimum wage to $50/hr immediately without having to suck off Manchin, Sinema, or any of the federal GOP.

The question is, why hasn't liberal California passed a minimum wage of $24/hr and instead focused on jailing people for modifying their cars with non-CARB compliant parts and making sure that every box of Christmas lights gets a specially made warning about possible cancer causing agents in them?
 
2021-07-25 9:01:41 PM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: Fact: At no point since the inception of the minimum wage could someone working 40 hours a week support any more than a basic standard of living in a one-bedroom apartment with the bare essentials of living. At no point in time could someone support a family on minimum wage. At no point could someone afford to buy a house on minimum wage.

The initial minimum wage under FDR was the equivalent of $4/hr in 2021.

Now, this isn't to say it shouldn't be raised - it absolutely should be, but the idea that it needs to be raised to the equivalent of today's median wage is not just idiotic, it's revisionist history at its worst.


Fact. $4/hr would allow you to eat and pay your bills when FDR enacted it.
 
2021-07-25 9:05:40 PM  

Social Justice Warlock: rustypouch: vpc: AsparagusFTW: every job from white collar to blue collar is on the line and soon.

I disagree. Every job that has repetitive, identical tasks that can be automated will increasingly see those changes. Jobs that are 100% repetitive and identical are on the line. Jobs that require critical thinking, decision making in rapidly changing circumstances, or telling the robots what to do are not.

I also disagree. I work jobs that cannot be automated. I'm outside building things in the summer, and teach people to ski in the winter.

[Fark user image image 425x425]


I'd like to see the methodology behind that. I have no idea how a robot could do my jobs. A lot of what I do requires thinking on the fly and adapting to the situation. Being outside and dealing with constantly changing conditions, finding the best way to do things, as every job is different. Besides that, much of what I do is client relations. Making sure I'm building what the client actually wants, and changing things if needed. When skiing, chatting with a guest about their particular challenges on snow and ways to improve. Is there a robot that can do that?
 
2021-07-25 9:05:51 PM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: Fact: At no point since the inception of the minimum wage could someone working 40 hours a week support any more than a basic standard of living in a one-bedroom apartment with the bare essentials of living. At no point in time could someone support a family on minimum wage. At no point could someone afford to buy a house on minimum wage.


And We've slid back from there, because today working 40 hours a week for minimum wage isn't enough ANYWHERE in the country to live in a one-bedroom apartment.

The initial minimum wage under FDR was the equivalent of $4/hr in 2021.

Not quite: Minimum wage in 1938 was $15/week for 40 hours, which inflation adjusted boils down to $7.32/hr today.
That said: The effects of the great depression were still in play, and the initial amounts weren't set with what was right, but what the government felt they could get away with without instigating mass revolts.

Also, you're conveniently forgetting the productivity portion of the equation, which is MANY TIMES higher today than it was in 1938 when minimum wage was first introduced.
voxeu.orgView Full Size


Since 1970 or so the average floor workers have had basically zero growth in their compensation while productivity and compensation for big wigs has kept growing without delay. workers are long overdue for a more proportional piece of that pie.
 
2021-07-25 9:14:15 PM  

majestic: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Fact: At no point since the inception of the minimum wage could someone working 40 hours a week support any more than a basic standard of living in a one-bedroom apartment with the bare essentials of living. At no point in time could someone support a family on minimum wage. At no point could someone afford to buy a house on minimum wage.

The initial minimum wage under FDR was the equivalent of $4/hr in 2021.

Now, this isn't to say it shouldn't be raised - it absolutely should be, but the idea that it needs to be raised to the equivalent of today's median wage is not just idiotic, it's revisionist history at its worst.

Fact. $4/hr would allow you to eat and pay your bills when FDR enacted it.


Prove it. $2 a day ($.25c/hr) for an 8-hour shift in 1938.

For reference:

cdn.iwastesomuchtime.comView Full Size


New house: 15,600hrs of labor
Average income: 3.33x minimum wage
New car: 3440hrs of labor
Average rent: 108hrs of labor
Tuition: 1680hrs of labor
Movie Ticket: 1 hour of labor
1 gallon gasoline: 24 mins of labor
1 postage stamp: 7.2 mins of labor

10lbs Sugar: 2.3hrs of labor
Gallon of Milk: 2hrs of labor
Pound of Coffee: 1.5hrs of labor
Pound of Bacon: 1.3hrs of labor
Dozen Eggs: 0.7hrs of labor
 
2021-07-25 9:19:17 PM  

Excelsior: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Fact: At no point since the inception of the minimum wage could someone working 40 hours a week support any more than a basic standard of living in a one-bedroom apartment with the bare essentials of living. At no point in time could someone support a family on minimum wage. At no point could someone afford to buy a house on minimum wage.

And We've slid back from there, because today working 40 hours a week for minimum wage isn't enough ANYWHERE in the country to live in a one-bedroom apartment.

The initial minimum wage under FDR was the equivalent of $4/hr in 2021.

Not quite: Minimum wage in 1938 was $15/week for 40 hours, which inflation adjusted boils down to $7.32/hr today.
That said: The effects of the great depression were still in play, and the initial amounts weren't set with what was right, but what the government felt they could get away with without instigating mass revolts.

Also, you're conveniently forgetting the productivity portion of the equation, which is MANY TIMES higher today than it was in 1938 when minimum wage was first introduced.
[voxeu.org image 605x353]

Since 1970 or so the average floor workers have had basically zero growth in their compensation while productivity and compensation for big wigs has kept growing without delay. workers are long overdue for a more proportional piece of that pie.


Minimum wage has NEVER been indexed to productivity. Ever. Stop retconning ideas that never were.

I agree that minimum wage needs to be raised, but the idiotic notion that it's somehow tied to economic productivity over all is revisionist nonsense.
 
2021-07-25 9:21:03 PM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: majestic: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Fact: At no point since the inception of the minimum wage could someone working 40 hours a week support any more than a basic standard of living in a one-bedroom apartment with the bare essentials of living. At no point in time could someone support a family on minimum wage. At no point could someone afford to buy a house on minimum wage.

The initial minimum wage under FDR was the equivalent of $4/hr in 2021.

Now, this isn't to say it shouldn't be raised - it absolutely should be, but the idea that it needs to be raised to the equivalent of today's median wage is not just idiotic, it's revisionist history at its worst.

Fact. $4/hr would allow you to eat and pay your bills when FDR enacted it.

Prove it. $2 a day ($.25c/hr) for an 8-hour shift in 1938.

For reference:

[cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com image 540x720]

New house: 15,600hrs of labor
Average income: 3.33x minimum wage
New car: 3440hrs of labor
Average rent: 108hrs of labor
Tuition: 1680hrs of labor
Movie Ticket: 1 hour of labor
1 gallon gasoline: 24 mins of labor
1 postage stamp: 7.2 mins of labor

10lbs Sugar: 2.3hrs of labor
Gallon of Milk: 2hrs of labor
Pound of Coffee: 1.5hrs of labor
Pound of Bacon: 1.3hrs of labor
Dozen Eggs: 0.7hrs of labor


Was everybody going to Harvard back then? I suppose you are correct, though. We should never, ever again try to make sure people make enough to live on.
 
2021-07-25 9:25:40 PM  

majestic: 137 Is An Excellent Time: majestic: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Fact: At no point since the inception of the minimum wage could someone working 40 hours a week support any more than a basic standard of living in a one-bedroom apartment with the bare essentials of living. At no point in time could someone support a family on minimum wage. At no point could someone afford to buy a house on minimum wage.

The initial minimum wage under FDR was the equivalent of $4/hr in 2021.

Now, this isn't to say it shouldn't be raised - it absolutely should be, but the idea that it needs to be raised to the equivalent of today's median wage is not just idiotic, it's revisionist history at its worst.

Fact. $4/hr would allow you to eat and pay your bills when FDR enacted it.

Prove it. $2 a day ($.25c/hr) for an 8-hour shift in 1938.

For reference:

[cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com image 540x720]

New house: 15,600hrs of labor
Average income: 3.33x minimum wage
New car: 3440hrs of labor
Average rent: 108hrs of labor
Tuition: 1680hrs of labor
Movie Ticket: 1 hour of labor
1 gallon gasoline: 24 mins of labor
1 postage stamp: 7.2 mins of labor

10lbs Sugar: 2.3hrs of labor
Gallon of Milk: 2hrs of labor
Pound of Coffee: 1.5hrs of labor
Pound of Bacon: 1.3hrs of labor
Dozen Eggs: 0.7hrs of labor

Was everybody going to Harvard back then? I suppose you are correct, though. We should never, ever again try to make sure people make enough to live on.


The point is that minimum wage has never been the equivalent of $24/hr. Ever. It has never had that purchasing power. Ever. It has been the base subsistence wage for a single member of society.

Should it be more than 7.25/hr? Absolutely. Should it be the current national median wage? Absolutely not.

$12-15/hr with a permanent index to inflation should be good enough. Ohio did that a decade and a half ago and it's worked out fine.

It's now $8.80/hr and has been increased every year since they bumped it to $7.25. Lack of CPI inflation does hurt, I'll admit, but that ends credence to the idea that CPI is designed to undervalue true inflation.
 
2021-07-25 9:50:03 PM  

rustypouch: Social Justice Warlock: rustypouch: vpc: AsparagusFTW: every job from white collar to blue collar is on the line and soon.

I disagree. Every job that has repetitive, identical tasks that can be automated will increasingly see those changes. Jobs that are 100% repetitive and identical are on the line. Jobs that require critical thinking, decision making in rapidly changing circumstances, or telling the robots what to do are not.

I also disagree. I work jobs that cannot be automated. I'm outside building things in the summer, and teach people to ski in the winter.

[Fark user image image 425x425]

I'd like to see the methodology behind that. I have no idea how a robot could do my jobs. A lot of what I do requires thinking on the fly and adapting to the situation. Being outside and dealing with constantly changing conditions, finding the best way to do things, as every job is different. Besides that, much of what I do is client relations. Making sure I'm building what the client actually wants, and changing things if needed. When skiing, chatting with a guest about their particular challenges on snow and ways to improve. Is there a robot that can do that?


Methodology is based on this publication.
 
2021-07-25 10:04:56 PM  

BMFPitt: OlderGuy: Higher wages = more automation = less jobs available..  vicious circle, indeed...

You spelled "virtuous" wrong, unless you miss the days when we were an agrarian society that would have starved to death without child labor on farms.


Those days weren't so long ago
 
2021-07-25 10:05:08 PM  

Excelsior: You're literally advocating perpetuating institutional injustice so you won't be mildly inconvenienced yourself.


You seem to believe that I'm advocating not increasing the minimum wage. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that if it is done so without modifying the wages of everyone else, you're going to get problems.

What you're really looking for is to reduce wealth inequity. ie. increase the minimum wage, and the wages of normal people, while reducing corporate profits and others at the top. This is noble, but the people at the top are going to put up a fight, and they control.... well, everything.
 
2021-07-25 10:25:19 PM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: Average rent: 108hrs of labor


Would that $27/month average included boarding houses? I suspect it didn't and most out of home minimum wage earners at that time would have been living in boarding houses at least in cities.
 
2021-07-25 10:28:17 PM  
Yes, minimum wage should be raised, but to hear some people it should be high enough for a family of 4 to own a house and 2 cars in the suburbs for a job that has a skill level to fit a high school kid working part time after school.

Minimum wage jobs were never intended to be 20 year career positions.  They were supposed to be low or no skill jobs where anyone can get a job without experience and learn on the job, then move up to higher paying positions as your skills improve. 

Before we can decide how much minimum wage should be, as a nation we should probably first decide who a typical minimum wage job is targeted towards.
 
2021-07-25 10:56:19 PM  

Saturn5: Yes, minimum wage should be raised, but to hear some people it should be high enough for a family of 4 to own a house and 2 cars in the suburbs for a job that has a skill level to fit a high school kid working part time after school.

Minimum wage jobs were never intended to be 20 year career positions.  They were supposed to be low or no skill jobs where anyone can get a job without experience and learn on the job, then move up to higher paying positions as your skills improve. 

Before we can decide how much minimum wage should be, as a nation we should probably first decide who a typical minimum wage job is targeted towards.


Employers that want to run sweatshops.
 
2021-07-25 10:57:50 PM  

Saturn5: Yes, minimum wage should be raised, but to hear some people it should be high enough for a family of 4 to own a house and 2 cars in the suburbs for a job that has a skill level to fit a high school kid working part time after school.

Minimum wage jobs were never intended to be 20 year career positions.  They were supposed to be low or no skill jobs where anyone can get a job without experience and learn on the job, then move up to higher paying positions as your skills improve. 

Before we can decide how much minimum wage should be, as a nation we should probably first decide who a typical minimum wage job is targeted towards.


I like to think that the idea behind a minimum wage was that it was the minimum needed to keep a roof over your head.It hasn't been that for a long time.
 
2021-07-25 11:00:12 PM  

Saturn5: Yes, minimum wage should be raised, but to hear some people it should be high enough for a family of 4 to own a house and 2 cars in the suburbs for a job that has a skill level to fit a high school kid working part time after school.

Minimum wage jobs were never intended to be 20 year career positions.  They were supposed to be low or no skill jobs where anyone can get a job without experience and learn on the job, then move up to higher paying positions as your skills improve. 

Before we can decide how much minimum wage should be, as a nation we should probably first decide who a typical minimum wage job is targeted towards.


Nobody has said that.
 
2021-07-25 11:02:30 PM  

FormlessOne: Yes. Now that you know that wage slavery exists and that the money which should've gone to improve lower class & lower middle class incomes has been siphoned off them by the rich since the '80s, what, do you think, is going to be done about it?

Very farking little. The whole point of the $15 minimum wage isn't to correct the obvious inequity, but to set a new wage slavery standard. Until the minimum wage is somehow tied to the GDP in a meaningful way - ideally through a guaranteed basic income - raising it even to $15 an hour is a shallow gesture meant to mollify, not mitigate. The theater around raising the minimum wage is meant to make you thankful for it. That's it.


Every year that one's wage doesn't increase, including the minimum wage, is effectively a pay cut.
 
Displayed 50 of 168 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking




On Twitter


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.