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(The Intercept)   Basic math says minimum wage should be $24 an hour   (theintercept.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Minimum wage, United States Senate, federal minimum wage, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Minimum wage in the United States, United States Congress, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, minimum wage  
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1691 clicks; posted to Business » on 25 Jul 2021 at 8:45 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-07-25 10:53:34 AM  

Dr.Fey: edmo: Before the usual arguments start, just remember in the late 70s a regular guy could sell shoes and support a wife, two kids, and a mortgage payment.

I'm a little skeptical.

I'm not old enough to "remember" that, but since you are stating it as fact, is there any sort of citation?

Or is this hyperbole?

Marcos P: 40 hours a week in a factory could also support a family...

This sounds a little more realistic (although I note mortgage isn't mentioned).


I'll give you another data point: the wife put herself through state university by working summers in a factory and 15 hrs a week at work study.  4 years and a degree on part time work. Try that now. And yet, lots of kids in the 70s were doing the same thing.
 
2021-07-25 11:00:19 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-25 11:02:43 AM  

Flowery Twats: Dr.Fey: edmo: Before the usual arguments start, just remember in the late 70s a regular guy could sell shoes and support a wife, two kids, and a mortgage payment.

I'm a little skeptical.

I'm not old enough to "remember" that, but since you are stating it as fact, is there any sort of citation?

Or is this hyperbole?

Marcos P: 40 hours a week in a factory could also support a family...

This sounds a little more realistic (although I note mortgage isn't mentioned).

I'll give you another data point: the wife put herself through state university by working summers in a factory and 15 hrs a week at work study.  4 years and a degree on part time work. Try that now. And yet, lots of kids in the 70s were doing the same thing.


I'm with ya, and thank you.

I'm mostly skeptical about the shoe salesperson thing, though even that is kind of a "buggy-whip" problem, comparing the '70s to today.

A shoe salesperson in my world is either a teen wearing a hamulating zebra stripe shirt in a mall Footlocker or a person in a suit at Macy's, and I am likely to simply order shoes on-line regardless.

I suppose being a shoe salesperson in the '70s might be no different than being a low-end IT person these days.  While the latter seems to me to have more status, I really have no idea if that's the case.  It's my own myopic view from living in the present day.
 
2021-07-25 11:08:53 AM  

OlderGuy: Higher wages = more automation = less jobs available..  vicious circle, indeed...


Automating all the jobs no one wants + UBI + good wages for the jobs that remain = Zero poverty, everyone does what they want to do, companies still make tons of money since they're not paying the robots, everyone's happy

The Agrarian Revolution required the invention of money as barter was no longer feasible as a primary trade method, the Industrial Revolution required overtime pay and minimum wage to not leave people starving (and revolting) in the streets, and the Digitial Revolution requires UBI, socialized medicine, and stronger wages.

Civilization will advance with or without us. I'd like to see with.
 
2021-07-25 11:11:32 AM  

OlderGuy: Chief Superintendent Lookout: OlderGuy: Higher wages = more automation = less jobs available..  vicious circle, indeed...

You know, the so-called "job creators" kept saying if wages were increased that automation would be more commonplace.  Notice how increased automation hasn't happened? It's all a BS scare tactic.

It is happening... MSM won't tell you.


lol. Let me guess, only real news networks like OAN are talking about it, right?

unimpressedjerkoffmotion.gif
 
2021-07-25 11:14:58 AM  

ImOscar: [Fark user image 425x500]


That poster's less of a joke than it initially looks like, especially with the numbers they picked... but automation is going to eliminate 50-60% of the needed labor in 20-25 years, so 20-hour work weeks may actually be the norm at that point, it's not unreasonable to demand that your 20 hours be spread over no more than 4 days, and given 20-25 years of inflation and the fact that wages will nearly double since the same work is done with half of the time, the minimum wage is probably going to be $50+/hour at that point, so the $69 isn't even much of an exaggeration. So yeah, the poster is, obviously a 420 69 joke, and that's why those specific numbers are there... but the general concept's surprisingly close to what I'd expect a Scandinavian country to look like in a couple of decades.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2021-07-25 11:18:24 AM  
The low skill jobs that paid a so-called "livable" wage in the mid-20th century are gone and they are never coming back.
 
2021-07-25 11:22:24 AM  

edmo: Before the usual arguments start, just remember in the late 70s a regular guy could sell shoes and support a wife, two kids, and a mortgage payment.


Well, no, a guy who managed a shoe shop, maybe a senior assistant could do that.

But that was a more responsible job back then. If you ran a shop as part of a chain, it was largely your shop to run. You did the hiring, set policy, did the ordering of things etc etc. What happened between the 70s and today is that more and more of that was managed centrally. They literally send out plans to branches of what is going to go on what shelf, track sales and stock and order it for the stores.

Lots of jobs go from high status to low status because of automation and improved processes.

On top of all that, more women in the workplace, bringing in a salary for longer has pushed up housing costs. The family with 1 salary are trumped by a family with a salary and a part time wife.
 
2021-07-25 11:25:34 AM  

lynxi: OlderGuy: Higher wages = more automation = less jobs available..  vicious circle, indeed...

automation reckoning is coming sooner or latter utopia or dystopia is our chose to make now


When I was furloughed I took a quick job at Amazon. First thing I told my parents when I called them was "Tech is coming for every job. You hear about it in the news, I just saw it."

There is an excellent book on the subject called Price of Tomorrow by Booth. His thesis is that since tech is coming for everything we are essentially fighting a deflationary force with inflationary monetary policy and they dont jive until collapse. Great read.

Even in accounting and finance im seeing it with software. It can play out a million ways but every job from white collar to blue collar is on the line and soon.
 
2021-07-25 11:26:03 AM  

Flowery Twats: I'll give you another data point: the wife put herself through state university by working summers in a factory and 15 hrs a week at work study.  4 years and a degree on part time work. Try that now. And yet, lots of kids in the 70s were doing the same thing.


That's because college costs and overheads have gone insane. The number of admin and support staff, the facilities are all far bigger than they were in the 70s.

You want to learn to code today, you can do it for less than $50/month with online courses.
 
2021-07-25 11:28:34 AM  

farkeruk: edmo: Before the usual arguments start, just remember in the late 70s a regular guy could sell shoes and support a wife, two kids, and a mortgage payment.

Well, no, a guy who managed a shoe shop, maybe a senior assistant could do that.

But that was a more responsible job back then. If you ran a shop as part of a chain, it was largely your shop to run. You did the hiring, set policy, did the ordering of things etc etc. What happened between the 70s and today is that more and more of that was managed centrally. They literally send out plans to branches of what is going to go on what shelf, track sales and stock and order it for the stores.

Lots of jobs go from high status to low status because of automation and improved processes.

On top of all that, more women in the workplace, bringing in a salary for longer has pushed up housing costs. The family with 1 salary are trumped by a family with a salary and a part time wife.


You know that was a sitcom reference?
 
vpc [TotalFark]
2021-07-25 11:43:42 AM  

AsparagusFTW: every job from white collar to blue collar is on the line and soon.


I disagree. Every job that has repetitive, identical tasks that can be automated will increasingly see those changes. Jobs that are 100% repetitive and identical are on the line. Jobs that require critical thinking, decision making in rapidly changing circumstances, or telling the robots what to do are not.
 
2021-07-25 11:46:17 AM  

farkeruk: Flowery Twats: I'll give you another data point: the wife put herself through state university by working summers in a factory and 15 hrs a week at work study.  4 years and a degree on part time work. Try that now. And yet, lots of kids in the 70s were doing the same thing.

That's because college costs and overheads have gone insane. The number of admin and support staff, the facilities are all far bigger than they were in the 70s.

You want to learn to code today, you can do it for less than $50/month with online courses.



Just like any other profession, there is a BIG difference between learning the skills and years of experience.  I've worked with noobs who were grateful in acquiring knowledge from people with 10+ years of actual experience (meaning variety and not annual repetition).  I have also worked with people who, in their junior capacity, felt fully qualified to design applications based on having a CIT degree.  Designs which were complete and utter shiat.
 
2021-07-25 11:48:05 AM  
Want better paying jobs???
Outlaw all but the absolute most basic manufacturing and services performed outside of North America.
Once all Manufacturing has been brought back to North America the unions would reorganize and force wages to be where they're supposed to be.
Orrrrr if thats too difficult.
Mandate into law that companies much profit share quarterly with the employees.
No reason for Apple or Google to just sit on top of 8 Trillion each when they can spread that out to the employees who in turn would spend and so on.
But its also Sunday morning and I've been drinking so take it with a grain of vodka.
 
2021-07-25 11:56:23 AM  

vpc: AsparagusFTW: every job from white collar to blue collar is on the line and soon.

I disagree. Every job that has repetitive, identical tasks that can be automated will increasingly see those changes. Jobs that are 100% repetitive and identical are on the line. Jobs that require critical thinking, decision making in rapidly changing circumstances, or telling the robots what to do are not.


I used to feel that way but now I'm not so sure.

My job is to be a "fixer" - to step in when a project/program/initiative is far gone and needs to be either pulled over the finish line or mercy killed.

No machine can do what I do.

But, if the machines avoid the screwups that make me necessary... I can still be made obsolete.

Fortunately, I don't expect that to happen in the next 2-3 decades, as the biggest screwups around will involve implementations of automation
 
2021-07-25 11:58:51 AM  

lynxi: OlderGuy: Higher wages = more automation = less jobs available..  vicious circle, indeed...

automation reckoning is coming sooner or latter utopia or dystopia is our chose to make now


Dystopia for the many is utopia for the few
 
2021-07-25 12:05:15 PM  

Oliver Twisted: Mcavity: I'd like to see someone take out the top .05% and recalculate the median wage..

I doubt it would have a huge impact.  I do believe you are confusing income with wealth.


I doubt it would have a huge impact, but for no other reason than what "median" means.
 
2021-07-25 12:11:27 PM  

farkeruk: Flowery Twats: I'll give you another data point: the wife put herself through state university by working summers in a factory and 15 hrs a week at work study.  4 years and a degree on part time work. Try that now. And yet, lots of kids in the 70s were doing the same thing.

That's because college costs and overheads have gone insane. The number of admin and support staff, the facilities are all far bigger than they were in the 70s.


Perhaps. But the concept of a public university was supposed to be that those costs were subsidised by the state to make a college education affordable to the "average person".
Problem is, that wages haven't grown as fast as costs, and the state hasn't been doing their part.

Thanks to St. Reagan, the rich are getting richer and the reat of us are standing still.
 
2021-07-25 12:15:27 PM  

sleze: If $24 is just enough to live on in San Francisco, it is higher than needed in Pascagoula.  If $24 is just enough to live on in Pascagoula, it is no where near enough to live on in San Francisco.

There should be a national BASELINE minimum wage PLUS COLAs for specific areas.


You're arguing that people shouldn't live well in places. That's your argument.
 
2021-07-25 12:15:59 PM  

vpc: AsparagusFTW: every job from white collar to blue collar is on the line and soon.

I disagree. Every job that has repetitive, identical tasks that can be automated will increasingly see those changes. Jobs that are 100% repetitive and identical are on the line. Jobs that require critical thinking, decision making in rapidly changing circumstances, or telling the robots what to do are not.


I also disagree. I work jobs that cannot be automated. I'm outside building things in the summer, and teach people to ski in the winter.
 
2021-07-25 12:16:22 PM  

lynxi: OlderGuy: Higher wages = more automation = less jobs available..  vicious circle, indeed...

automation reckoning is coming sooner or latter utopia or dystopia is our chose to make now


Automation is dramatically increasing workers productivity, except 90% of that value increase is going to the idle rich.  Who are blowing the money on space travel, mega-yachts (used for tax evasion), and lobbyists to undermine labor.
 
2021-07-25 12:31:15 PM  

sleze: If $24 is just enough to live on in San Francisco, it is higher than needed in Pascagoula.  If $24 is just enough to live on in Pascagoula, it is no where near enough to live on in San Francisco.

There should be a national BASELINE minimum wage PLUS COLAs for specific areas.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-25 12:37:06 PM  

OlderGuy: Chief Superintendent Lookout: OlderGuy: Higher wages = more automation = less jobs available..  vicious circle, indeed...

You know, the so-called "job creators" kept saying if wages were increased that automation would be more commonplace.  Notice how increased automation hasn't happened? It's all a BS scare tactic.

It is happening... MSM won't tell you.


You're saying we shouldn't raise wages because it will cause automation.

And you're saying automation is already happening, despite the fact that we haven't raised wages.

So your second claim completely contradicts your first claim. So which is it? Is it painful being that stupid?
 
2021-07-25 12:40:16 PM  
While automation has been an issue for a long time, today it is mostly used as misdirection.
Whenever someone talks about lowering wages ,they act like you need to accept what you get or they will automate those jobs.
For the most past ,that is just a scare tactic to get you to shut up.

You can see the real issue by looking at how much companies are investing in slavery around the world and the elimination of human rights.
 
2021-07-25 12:40:17 PM  
It's wild to me that people will seriously try to argue that $24 is too much money for people in certain parts of the country, when billionaires exist.

The minimum wage shouldn't merely be enough for people to barely scrape by. It should be enough for them to live well on, as people who live well can afford to spend more money. And they have better mental and physical health. Poverty is literally bad for your health.
 
2021-07-25 12:46:21 PM  
You can accept all the shiatty wages and subhuman treatment you want - they will still automate your job if they possibly can.
That's the only determiner - whether or no they can do it - if they can, they will, and all the capitalist cock in creation sucked won't save your job.
 
2021-07-25 12:50:00 PM  

austerity101: It's wild to me that people will seriously try to argue that $24 is too much money for people in certain parts of the country, when billionaires exist.

The minimum wage shouldn't merely be enough for people to barely scrape by. It should be enough for them to live well on, as people who live well can afford to spend more money. And they have better mental and physical health. Poverty is literally bad for your health.


Yes, I completely agree with you. I think the people making those arguments have a misconception about the way certain economic factors impact others, as you can see in this thread. They start to panic about what they believe would change in the marketplace due to the wage increase.
 
2021-07-25 12:55:06 PM  

trialpha: $24/hour for 40 hours, 52 weeks a year is just under $50k. Google tells me the median wage in the US is ~$51k.

Upping the minimum to what the median is now is going to cause a lot of issues. You'd hope it would result in everybody's wages going up accordingly, but somehow I doubt it would be that easy.


My wife has a Masters and her CPA, she makes just over $60K.  DRTFA, but whatever is being used for the calculation is garbage. Per the CPI, minimum wage should be around $15. Yes, some things have gone up more, others have gone up less.
 
2021-07-25 1:08:38 PM  
Pay for productivity should hold. The one hr guy using quickbooks to handle all pay should be paid as much as a dozen folks doing it by hand 30 years ago.  Engineers should probably be paid 6 times more.  Not sure productivity at service level jobs has increased by a whole multiplier in the same time.
 
2021-07-25 1:13:51 PM  

drewogatory: $24? Psshaw. Why not make it farking $50? Or $100? I mean, surely the buying power of a dollar will remain exactly the same and we'll all be UMC. Better start building more Whole Foods, yoga studios and Porsche dealers stat.


I love this bullshiat argument. If we pay people a higher minimum wage then they will have luxury goods and that makes me less special.

No they won't be buying fancy sports cars or luxury watches. They might get to pay for rent food and medication. I mean all in the same month, that would be weird. People might be able to go from 3 roommates to just one. Single parent families might be able to go for a week's vacation to Disney every other year or so.

Maybe that means some people will have to have only 2 vacation houses. Maybe that watch drawer only holds 6 priceless pieces instead of twenty.

But hey f*ck em. I got look out for me. Right?
 
2021-07-25 1:16:52 PM  

austerity101: sleze: If $24 is just enough to live on in San Francisco, it is higher than needed in Pascagoula.  If $24 is just enough to live on in Pascagoula, it is no where near enough to live on in San Francisco.

There should be a national BASELINE minimum wage PLUS COLAs for specific areas.

You're arguing that people shouldn't live well in places. That's your argument.


No.  My argument is that the minimum wage is supposed to be the minimum wage to effectively live.  That differs greatly between a place where a 2 bedroom/2 bath house costs $75K to buy and and another place where it costs $1.3m to buy.  IMO, in Pascagoula, $24/hour is probably too high and in San Francisco, it is probably not enough.
 
2021-07-25 1:19:35 PM  
Screw linking it to productivity gains -- link it to CEO pay/compensation/bonus/stock holdings raises.
 
2021-07-25 1:49:46 PM  

Mcavity: I'd like to see someone take out the top .05% and recalculate the median wage..


You realize that the median is the wage at which half are above and half below, right? "Taking out" (by that, I presume you mean tax it away) a tiny sliver at the top will move the median hardly at all, and would actually make it slightly lower.
 
2021-07-25 1:51:38 PM  
Productivity gains are largely driven by expenditure of capital these days. If you want to participate, buy stocks.
 
2021-07-25 2:04:03 PM  

sleze: austerity101: sleze: If $24 is just enough to live on in San Francisco, it is higher than needed in Pascagoula.  If $24 is just enough to live on in Pascagoula, it is no where near enough to live on in San Francisco.

There should be a national BASELINE minimum wage PLUS COLAs for specific areas.

You're arguing that people shouldn't live well in places. That's your argument.

No.  My argument is that the minimum wage is supposed to be the minimum wage to effectively live.  That differs greatly between a place where a 2 bedroom/2 bath house costs $75K to buy and and another place where it costs $1.3m to buy.  IMO, in Pascagoula, $24/hour is probably too high and in San Francisco, it is probably not enough.


You're wrong about the minimum wage, which was explicitly, explicitly intended not as a mere subsistence wage, but one on which people could live comfortably. Your whole argument is based on, "What's the absolute least we can pay people to barely take care of their needs?", and I'd argue it's time to toss that heinous paradigm and start paying people well across the board.

You're concerned that people in one part of the country will get too much money. That's the crux of your argument. You're trying to figure out how to pay people less.
 
2021-07-25 2:05:37 PM  
Like, what does "too high" as a minimum wage even mean? What are you afraid of, that poor people won't be so poor any more?
 
2021-07-25 2:29:38 PM  

Saiga410: Pay for productivity should hold. The one hr guy using quickbooks to handle all pay should be paid as much as a dozen folks doing it by hand 30 years ago.  Engineers should probably be paid 6 times more.  Not sure productivity at service level jobs has increased by a whole multiplier in the same time.


Why?
 
2021-07-25 2:31:47 PM  

austerity101: You're wrong about the minimum wage, which was explicitly, explicitly intended not as a mere subsistence wage, but one on which people could live comfortably.


You might want to really be sure to avoid reading the explicit reason why the minimum wage was enacted.
 
2021-07-25 2:35:10 PM  

natazha: trialpha: $24/hour for 40 hours, 52 weeks a year is just under $50k. Google tells me the median wage in the US is ~$51k.

Upping the minimum to what the median is now is going to cause a lot of issues. You'd hope it would result in everybody's wages going up accordingly, but somehow I doubt it would be that easy.

My wife has a Masters and her CPA, she makes just over $60K.  DRTFA, but whatever is being used for the calculation is garbage. Per the CPI, minimum wage should be around $15. Yes, some things have gone up more, others have gone up less.


This is exactly my point. If you just raise the minimum wage, why would someone bother with a job that requires extra training/education/responsibility when they can get paid roughly the same with a job that requires none of those things? You're going to end up with a severe labor disruption.

Ideally, all those other jobs would get their wages increased appropriately, but that would cut into corporate profits, and we can't have that.
 
2021-07-25 2:37:44 PM  

BMFPitt: Mcavity: I'd like to see someone take out the top .05% and recalculate the median wage..

I find it incredibly fitting that someone posted this in a thread about basic math, and it got a bunch of smarts.


I was gonna comment on that too

[MORBO_MEDIANS DON"T WORK THAT WAY.jpg]
 
2021-07-25 2:47:19 PM  

BMFPitt: Saiga410: Pay for productivity should hold. The one hr guy using quickbooks to handle all pay should be paid as much as a dozen folks doing it by hand 30 years ago.  Engineers should probably be paid 6 times more.  Not sure productivity at service level jobs has increased by a whole multiplier in the same time.

Why?


I want a 6x raise
 
2021-07-25 3:14:55 PM  
Or..this os a novel idea...

Lower the freaking price on EVERYTHING!
There is no way the justification of price inflation can be proven.
$40k for a base pickup?
$12 for a Hamburger meal at sonic. ( I miss you brown bag special).
$800+ for a cellphone?
 
2021-07-25 3:27:20 PM  
I guess it depends how you measure productivity and if and how it can be generalized.

Has the productivity of a motel maid or wait staff increased at the same rate as a data analyst?
 
2021-07-25 3:37:26 PM  

natazha: trialpha: $24/hour for 40 hours, 52 weeks a year is just under $50k. Google tells me the median wage in the US is ~$51k.

Upping the minimum to what the median is now is going to cause a lot of issues. You'd hope it would result in everybody's wages going up accordingly, but somehow I doubt it would be that easy.

My wife has a Masters and her CPA, she makes just over $60K.  DRTFA, but whatever is being used for the calculation is garbage. Per the CPI, minimum wage should be around $15. Yes, some things have gone up more, others have gone up less.


Your wife is underpaid. She should start looking for work elsewhere, see what other companies are offering.
 
2021-07-25 3:41:41 PM  

edmo: Before the usual arguments start, just remember in the late 70s a regular guy could sell shoes and support a wife, two kids, and a mortgage payment.


Regular guy? Do you think a regular guy could score four touchdowns in a single game for Polk High?

I don't think so.
 
2021-07-25 3:43:07 PM  

farkeruk: Flowery Twats: I'll give you another data point: the wife put herself through state university by working summers in a factory and 15 hrs a week at work study.  4 years and a degree on part time work. Try that now. And yet, lots of kids in the 70s were doing the same thing.

That's because college costs and overheads have gone insane. The number of admin and support staff, the facilities are all far bigger than they were in the 70s.

You want to learn to code today, you can do it for less than $50/month with online courses.


That and the government/state funds that used to support public/state universities are basically gone now.
 
2021-07-25 3:45:15 PM  

wildlifer: Or..this os a novel idea...

Lower the freaking price on EVERYTHING!
There is no way the justification of price inflation can be proven.
$40k for a base pickup?
$12 for a Hamburger meal at sonic. ( I miss you brown bag special).
$800+ for a cellphone?


You can only squeeze so much from the employees, that CEO compensation has to come from somewhere.
 
2021-07-25 3:45:19 PM  

vpc: AsparagusFTW: every job from white collar to blue collar is on the line and soon.

I disagree. Every job that has repetitive, identical tasks that can be automated will increasingly see those changes. Jobs that are 100% repetitive and identical are on the line. Jobs that require critical thinking, decision making in rapidly changing circumstances, or telling the robots what to do are not.


Yeah those are as well. The process will be "productivity assistance" much like it has been for every other job.

Find a part of the task to automate and do so for more productivity. Then find another part and automate that.

It's just like eating any other elephant, you just handle it one bite at a time.
 
2021-07-25 3:53:10 PM  

The Thoroughbred of Sin: drewogatory: $24? Psshaw. Why not make it farking $50? Or $100? I mean, surely the buying power of a dollar will remain exactly the same and we'll all be UMC. Better start building more Whole Foods, yoga studios and Porsche dealers stat.

I love this bullshiat argument. If we pay people a higher minimum wage then they will have luxury goods and that makes me less special.

No they won't be buying fancy sports cars or luxury watches. They might get to pay for rent food and medication. I mean all in the same month, that would be weird. People might be able to go from 3 roommates to just one. Single parent families might be able to go for a week's vacation to Disney every other year or so.

Maybe that means some people will have to have only 2 vacation houses. Maybe that watch drawer only holds 6 priceless pieces instead of twenty.

But hey f*ck em. I got look out for me. Right?


The weirdest part for me was when we had an unexpected break and we just... paid and fixed it.

There was no wailing and panic over where to borrow from in order to handle this now and how to get those funds back to pay what they were supposed to we just paid what was needed and then didn't do a few extras that month we were planning to do in order to build back the savings.

When I first found out about the break my body was already going into a stress reaction thinking about what groceries we had on hand, how much gas was in the cars, and what bills were due when.

Then my wife told me to relax, we had it, and it was not an issue. I knew what growing up broke and starting life as an adult that way had done to me but until that day I had never seen the other side of it and it blew my mind.

No lies I cried in relief.

That was part of what steeled my resolved to help make sure no one would have to go through that again.
 
2021-07-25 4:12:27 PM  
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