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(Aeon.co)   This is why everyone hates moral philosophers   (aeon.co) divider line
    More: Amusing, Morality, Ethics, moral philosopher, very idea of morality, Immanuel Kant, force of our reasons, moral philosophy, moral philosophers  
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1755 clicks; posted to STEM » on 23 Jul 2021 at 9:15 PM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-07-23 8:55:12 PM  
tl;dr


/philosophy always devolves into arguing about language
 
2021-07-23 9:17:53 PM  
What do you mean by "always"?
 
2021-07-23 9:25:38 PM  
This is why everyone hates moral philosophers

Fark user imageView Full Size



I know.
 
2021-07-23 9:25:48 PM  
sites.nd.eduView Full Size
 
2021-07-23 9:26:58 PM  
Okay, so you are an ape, who wishes to imagine that he lives in a universe that has somehow conveniently arranged itself into an ape pack, with a big 'ole alpha ape at the top of it.
Difficulty: The actual universe doesn't GAF what you think it is.
 
2021-07-23 9:27:34 PM  
FTFA: Without God, the moral terrorism that relies on hell loses some leverage
 
2021-07-23 9:29:39 PM  
"The Law is graven on every man's heart."

To be human is to be a moral philosopher.  Regardless of how we do it, we are compelled by our very nature to conceive of a Law that we must live by.  It is also our very nature that we are unable to fulfill the requirements of that Law.  This is what it means to be human:  to have perfection demanded of the imperfect.

Good news, though:  The Law which we are unable to fulfill has been fulfilled for us.  So all this angst over "moral philosophy" is just a distraction, nothing more than a way to make us fret and worry.
 
2021-07-23 9:33:53 PM  

Sgygus: tl;dr


/philosophy always devolves into arguing about language


Not sure I grok, can you reduce your hypothesis to atomic facts?

/Atomic facts are actually monads.
 
2021-07-23 9:37:25 PM  
If you are applying rote rules in the face of an ethical choice you are an asshole. Life is chaos. Be kind.
 
2021-07-23 9:37:27 PM  
I prefer stand-up philosophers anyway.
 
2021-07-23 9:38:32 PM  
tl;dr moral philosophy is ungawdly and means you have to think about things. That means it's bad
 
2021-07-23 9:41:43 PM  
What luck, I was looking for some apologist bullsh*t to enjoy on this Friday evening.

That load of manure is sure a long-winded way to say the tired and debunked BS that morality comes from god or morality cannot exist without god.
 
2021-07-23 9:41:53 PM  
The moral choice is uncorrelated with the correct choice. Worrying about whether or not something is moral or not is just mental masturbation.
 
2021-07-23 9:50:43 PM  
"For that is the truth of it - that we all know, God, that we know, that we know, we know, we know."

--- Mr. Sammler's Planet by Saul Bellow
 
2021-07-23 9:51:56 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: If you are applying rote rules in the face of an ethical choice you are an asshole. Life is chaos. Be kind.


anuran: tl;dr moral philosophy is ungawdly and means you have to think about things. That means it's bad


Befuddled: What luck, I was looking for some apologist bullsh*t to enjoy on this Friday evening.

That load of manure is sure a long-winded way to say the tired and debunked BS that morality comes from god or morality cannot exist without god.


trialpha: The moral choice is uncorrelated with the correct choice. Worrying about whether or not something is moral or not is just mental masturbation.


A lot of people leading unexamined lives, not worth living, in this thread.
 
2021-07-23 9:53:52 PM  
I made it through a few paragraphs.

I act as I do because of my own morality.  There is a way I think people ought to treat each other, and I try to act in accordance with that.  I recognize that others may have a different view.  That doesn't mean my morality is wrong, just different.

There is no sky arbiter of who is right or wrong.
 
2021-07-23 10:02:12 PM  

ko_kyi: I made it through a few paragraphs.

I act as I do because of my own morality.  There is a way I think people ought to treat each other, and I try to act in accordance with that.  I recognize that others may have a different view.  That doesn't mean my morality is wrong, just different.

There is no sky arbiter of who is right or wrong.


My morality says I should kill you and take your stuff whenever I feel like it.  That doesn't mean my morality is wrong, just different.
 
2021-07-23 10:20:04 PM  

ko_kyi: There is no right or wrong.


Ftfy
 
2021-07-23 10:22:15 PM  
He's gone full Peeps chili.

Chidi Goes Insane and Eats Peeps Chili - The Good Place (Episode Highlight)
Youtube 2c-AawAKZ14
 
2021-07-23 10:22:46 PM  

Mouser: ko_kyi: I made it through a few paragraphs.

I act as I do because of my own morality.  There is a way I think people ought to treat each other, and I try to act in accordance with that.  I recognize that others may have a different view.  That doesn't mean my morality is wrong, just different.

There is no sky arbiter of who is right or wrong.

My morality says I should kill you and take your stuff whenever I feel like it.  That doesn't mean my morality is wrong, just different.


You sound like a Christian talking to a non believer
 
2021-07-23 10:24:41 PM  
"Don't f*ck your children," seems like a fair absolute that requires no Hell to get you an ass whoopin'. Doesn't need a deity around.

Killing? Stealing? Beating the ever lovin' snot out of someone? Lying to a friend? All can be justified with circumstances. Real hard to justify raping your own children though.

Morality isn't about reward or religion, though a lot of folks will depend on those authorities to list things as moral or not, but in the end: would you like this done to yourself? If the answer is no, then it's an act you can throw on the "don't do this," pile. This expands when you consider that all people don't have your likes and dislikes, but most people prefer if you at least ask before doing some things. This helps you eliminate your own biases snd kinks to consider others'.

It's amazing how much 'morality' boils down to "don't be a d*ck." You can have a fair sense of morality without need of a deity or 'higher power' to appeal to by just following said rule.
 
2021-07-23 10:24:53 PM  

Mouser: ko_kyi: I made it through a few paragraphs.

I act as I do because of my own morality.  There is a way I think people ought to treat each other, and I try to act in accordance with that.  I recognize that others may have a different view.  That doesn't mean my morality is wrong, just different.

There is no sky arbiter of who is right or wrong.

My morality says I should kill you and take your stuff whenever I feel like it.  That doesn't mean my morality is wrong, just different.


There are individual moralities and then there are group/collective/social moralities. The moralities of individuals within a given society tend to mimic that social morality (or they don't last long).

Someone's morality is only "wrong" if it runs contrary to a particular society that they wish to remain a part of.

Social moralities could be viewed as "wrong" (by outsiders or insiders) if they don't support the continued "health" of that community.

Your morality of taking what you what, when you want, is fine. As long as you can maintain it when surrounded by others that feel the same way.
 
2021-07-23 10:31:02 PM  

Sgygus: tl;dr


/philosophy always devolves into arguing about language


Or a salad of words that the philosophers never clearly defines and couldn't even if they tried to do so honestly.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
 
2021-07-23 10:40:16 PM  
"That which is hateful to you, do not do to another. That is the whole Law. The rest is commentary. Now go and learn."

― Rabbi Hillel
 
2021-07-23 10:43:51 PM  
Tons of problematic stuff in this article, but the fiirst thing that really made me say WTF was this part:

"Yet the leading theories of morality can mitigate their overreach only by setting arbitrary limits to their own relevance."

What this author deems "arbitrary" is actually meticulously contstructed argumentation

Author seems out of touch
 
2021-07-23 10:48:33 PM  

Mouser: A lot of people leading unexamined lives, not worth living, in this thread.


Somehow I will find a way to carry on in life without your approval. You do know that when you respond with ad hominem and nothing else, it is just you admitting that you got nothing.

Morality 1: Good without gods
Youtube T7xt5LtgsxQ
 
2021-07-23 10:56:33 PM  

kyuzokai: I prefer stand-up philosophers anyway.



Ah...a BULLSHAIT artist.
 
2021-07-23 10:59:44 PM  

Sgygus: tl;dr


/philosophy always devolves into arguing about language


Can you give an example from th3 contemporary literature?
 
2021-07-23 11:08:08 PM  

kyuzokai: I prefer stand-up philosophers anyway.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-23 11:14:37 PM  
Someone bad at moral philosophy projects that everyone else is as bad at it as they are.
 
2021-07-23 11:18:41 PM  

The Ice Cream Man: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to another. That is the whole Law. The rest is commentary. Now go and learn."

― Rabbi Hillel


So, you're saying I shouldn't put cilantro on my wife's tacos?
 
2021-07-23 11:34:47 PM  

Sgygus: tl;dr


/philosophy always devolves into arguing about language


In my experience it always devolves into heavy drinking.
You must just hang out with some shiatty philosophers.
 
2021-07-23 11:58:56 PM  

Mouser: Evil Twin Skippy: If you are applying rote rules in the face of an ethical choice you are an asshole. Life is chaos. Be kind.

anuran: tl;dr moral philosophy is ungawdly and means you have to think about things. That means it's bad

Befuddled: What luck, I was looking for some apologist bullsh*t to enjoy on this Friday evening.

That load of manure is sure a long-winded way to say the tired and debunked BS that morality comes from god or morality cannot exist without god.

trialpha: The moral choice is uncorrelated with the correct choice. Worrying about whether or not something is moral or not is just mental masturbation.

A lot of people leading unexamined lives, not worth living, in this thread.


A lot of us have examined our lives and found this sort of jerking off to be unproductive even in a nihilistic world where everything is meaningless.
 
2021-07-24 12:01:40 AM  

Mouser: My morality says I should kill you and take your stuff whenever I feel like it.  That doesn't mean my morality is wrong, just different.


Good luck.  I won't count on a sky wizard to stop you, sociopath.  I'd like to have a society that makes it tougher for you.  Thanks for letting me know who you are, I believe you.
 
2021-07-24 12:05:33 AM  

Daer21: ko_kyi: There is no right or wrong.

Ftfy


Hardly.
 
2021-07-24 12:11:17 AM  

Mouser: My morality says I should kill you and take your stuff whenever I feel like it. That doesn't mean my morality is wrong, just different.


I remember when I had my first beer.
 
2021-07-24 12:42:50 AM  

ko_kyi: Daer21: ko_kyi: There is no right or wrong.

Ftfy

Hardly.


You sound bourgeoisie
 
2021-07-24 12:42:53 AM  
Oh wow that was a bad essay. His critique of totalizing moral was itself bogus. I can think of only the Kantian categorical imperatives, and the racisms of Fascism, Apartheid, and Jim Crow, as moral system that fit his critique in that paragraph. Totalizing? Really?

And when he says that morality is to guide all of our actions... What moral philosopher argues that, other than a Fascist or an Apartheid one? Morality seems more often to be a system of axiom that guide our reactions to events, a sort of parameters for how we accept our own reactions to what we see. from that reflection, we want to draw the best ideas for how we act, but nobody but a few modern it weirdos thinks that morality is our guide for how we act. Our reflection on morality, that is, a reflection on a reflection, is more apt. An epistemology and phenomenology, but not a control or a replacement for God.
 
2021-07-24 12:44:56 AM  

Daer21: ko_kyi: Daer21: ko_kyi: There is no right or wrong.

Ftfy

Hardly.

You sound bourgeoisie


can you explain without being antidisestablishinteriast?
 
2021-07-24 1:13:39 AM  
I think most moral philosophers, even most all philosophers, should just be thrown under a trolley.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-24 1:14:53 AM  
Monty Python - Bruce's Philosophers Song (Bruce's Song) {Official Lyric Video]
Youtube l9SqQNgDrgg
 
2021-07-24 1:57:54 AM  
FTA:
Morality, I now believe, is a shadow of religion, serving to comfort those who no longer accept divine guidance but still hope for an 'objective' source of certainty about right and wrong.

I'm not a philosophy-talkin' guy, but this sounds a little suspect.  I'd be willing to be dollars to donuts that talking monkeys had a sense of what's morally "right" or "wrong" before we attached mysticism to it.
 
2021-07-24 2:10:33 AM  

Bennie Crabtree: And when he says that morality is to guide all of our actions... What moral philosopher argues that, other than a Fascist or an Apartheid one?


Not sure by which definition of morality (or which definition of moral philosophy) you go to arrive at such a conclusion?

Pretty much *all* moral philosophers have had such an ambition. (Well maybe not Hume or Nietzsche?)

Utilitarians try to determine the right course of action (in advance not after the fact) based on which action or rule has those consequences that will maximize anticipated utility (overall well-being, pleasure or happiness).

Deontological / kantien approaches criticized this precisely on the basis of unintended consequences. Because its ambition was to anticipate consequences not merely reflect on what has happened.

Same with virtue ethics which focus itself on the question of what a virtuous person would do (sort of a WWJD reflection). But again, it's not merely backward looking, it's supposed to answer the question of "what one ought to do"...

Here check this article on descriptive or normative definitions of morality...
 
2021-07-24 2:21:56 AM  
Mouser:

A lot of people leading unexamined lives, not worth living, in this thread.

Woah, did you miss the bit about motes and beams?

Many Christians seem to make the big mistake that nobody else has thought through how they try to live life as best they can. They don't get out much.

Many Farkers appear to have a Christian background that they have left behind them due to glaring hypocrisy and an apparent belief on the part of many Christians that 'God says so' is a righteous, acceptable alternative to engaging one's brain and thinking an issue through.

I'm a Christian; I find it very hard to understand how people make sense of the world or find meaning to life in the absence of a God. I also find atheistic philosophers often seem to carry with them vestiges of moral absolutes they claim to have abandoned. I was struck in high school by the way that Sartre couldn't seem to flesh out his ideas without reference to Christian concepts. But that doesn't equate to an unexamined life.

The big question I have about any belief system right now is how it addresses hope. Is there reason to hope, and why?
 
2021-07-24 2:28:32 AM  

hubiestubert: "Don't f*ck your children," seems like a fair absolute that requires no Hell to get you an ass whoopin'. Doesn't need a deity around.

Killing? Stealing? Beating the ever lovin' snot out of someone? Lying to a friend? All can be justified with circumstances. Real hard to justify raping your own children though.

Morality isn't about reward or religion, though a lot of folks will depend on those authorities to list things as moral or not, but in the end: would you like this done to yourself? If the answer is no, then it's an act you can throw on the "don't do this," pile. This expands when you consider that all people don't have your likes and dislikes, but most people prefer if you at least ask before doing some things. This helps you eliminate your own biases snd kinks to consider others'.

It's amazing how much 'morality' boils down to "don't be a d*ck." You can have a fair sense of morality without need of a deity or 'higher power' to appeal to by just following said rule.


Philosophy comes in because it's the question of why shouldn't you be a d*ck? And who gets to define what being a d*ck is?

In your example you assume that everyone sees that as wrong. Throughout human history that sort of thing has gone on so obviously not everyone thinks it's wrong.

This article is right about one thing in my opinion. Much like religion comforts people in part because it gives believers a sense of order, the concept of morality itself comforts people because it gives a sense of order to their lives. Would most people be satisfied with the thought that morality is a made up concept and has no basis in reality? What if there is no good or bad, just things that can seem good or bad depending on your perspective? I don't think most people would be happy with that. Most people want things organized not chaotic.
 
2021-07-24 2:47:22 AM  
appropriating morality | how 'the Judeo-Christian tradition' takes false credit [cc]
Youtube OsAaxOFOUl4
 
2021-07-24 3:24:22 AM  
I'm not with Mouser just pointing out

"The unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates
 
2021-07-24 3:54:26 AM  
Birnone:
This article is right about one thing in my opinion. Much like religion comforts people in part because it gives believers a sense of order, the concept of morality itself comforts people because it gives a sense of order to their lives. Would most people be satisfied with the thought that morality is a made up concept and has no basis in reality? What if there is no good or bad, just things that can seem good or bad depending on your perspective? I don't think most people would be happy with that. Most people want things organized not chaotic.

Agreed. My take is that Christianity makes no less sense than chaos, and potentially makes a lot more. Pascal's wager I suppose.
 
2021-07-24 3:56:32 AM  
Mouser:
anuran: tl;dr moral philosophy is ungawdly and means you have to think about things. That means it's bad

A lot of people leading unexamined lives, not worth living, in this thread.


I'm summarizing TFA. It does not reflect my beliefs.
 
2021-07-24 4:42:19 AM  
You're supposed to have sorted this out by the time you're a grownup.
If you're still hung up, maybe you need a booster shot - have you considered re-reading Zorba The Greek?
 
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