Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Globe and Mail)   Not news: Politician says something stupid and receives fierce rebuttal. Fark: At his swearing-in speech   (theglobeandmail.com) divider line
    More: Fail, First Nations, Indigenous peoples, Mr. Lagimodiere's predecessor, Canada's residential-school system minutes, Culture, Manitoba's new minister, Alan Lagimodiere, Indigenous relations  
•       •       •

2495 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Jul 2021 at 9:20 PM (2 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



53 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2021-07-16 1:36:17 PM  
A PC appointee said something stupid, ignorant, tone-deaf, and racist?  The hell, you say!
 
2021-07-16 2:06:27 PM  

Psychopusher: A PC appointee said something stupid, ignorant, tone-deaf, and racist?  The hell, you say!


It's better he got the gig cause the last one was fired for believing the same thing.
 
2021-07-16 2:27:52 PM  

sno man: Psychopusher: A PC appointee said something stupid, ignorant, tone-deaf, and racist?  The hell, you say!

It's better he got the gig cause the last one was fired for believing the same thing.


Like American Republicans, that's become our right-wing's playbook as well: If at first you don't succeed, try the same thing again, and then keep trying until everyone is tired of being offended by it and just gives it a pass.
 
2021-07-16 9:23:06 PM  
I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?
 
2021-07-16 9:31:10 PM  

Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?


You are correct.  It was genocide.
 
2021-07-16 9:32:40 PM  

Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?


The mantra was "Kill the Indian, save the man."
 
2021-07-16 9:32:59 PM  
It's okay everyone, he "misspoke".

He said the complete opposite of what he said in his subsequent clarification, but you know how it is, you're making an important speech and then you "misspeak" and every single word comes out completely wrong.

It happens to me all the time, sorry, I mean never, I misspoke.
 
2021-07-16 9:37:29 PM  
I'm not a Canadian but I play one on TV

Like the one time I went to ask my wife to pass the butter and instead misspoke "you stupid disgusting b*tch youre ruining my life"
 
2021-07-16 9:38:48 PM  

suziequzie: Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?

You are correct.  It was genocide.


But like a kinder, gentler genocide with like less killing and more forced assimilation.
 
2021-07-16 9:39:51 PM  

suziequzie: Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?

You are correct.  It was genocide.


With the best intentions, though.
 
2021-07-16 9:50:47 PM  
Who inspired him? Lynn Beyak?
 
2021-07-16 9:54:15 PM  
Read the room, moran.
 
2021-07-16 9:59:02 PM  
Research Canadian residential schools. They were hideously, intentionally cruel. To damned children who were stolen from their families.
 
2021-07-16 10:02:07 PM  
He said he thinks the people responsible for the institutions believed they were "doing the right thing" at the time.

So did Thanos.
 
2021-07-16 10:02:15 PM  
That moron's party actually tweeted this out after:
i.redd.itView Full Size
 
2021-07-16 10:11:54 PM  
Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.
 
2021-07-16 10:12:30 PM  

Boo_Guy: That moron's party actually tweeted this out after:
[i.redd.it image 612x212]


Ha ha then that was massivly undermined by his subsequent retraction and admission that he "misspoke". What a bunch of arseholes. Thanks for posting that, as much as this is not a funny issue that has cracked me up.
 
2021-07-16 10:12:41 PM  

Glenford: Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?

The mantra was "Kill the Indian, save the man."


Culturicide. As it was here in the United States, it was a deliberate, planned, continued act of culturicide.
 
2021-07-16 10:14:09 PM  

Slide10000: Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.


Fark that noise.

The oppressor doesn't get to tell the oppressed how they're allowed to express their displeasure at being oppressed. That argument is no different than claiming that taking a knee during a football game is somehow inappropriate because it's not the "proper venue," or "disrespects the game," or what-farking-ever.
 
2021-07-16 10:19:18 PM  

Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?


You are right, but he still wasn't wrong. It's horrific, but they thought it was the right course of action. They aren't mutually exclusive ideas. He didn't say they WERE the right actions, just that they thought they were right.

My people went through an assimilation process, but not nearly as horrific. My great grandfather could barely speak English, but his son was punished by the nuns when he spoke French in classes. My dad didn't really speak it as much because his dad didn't speak it much at home because of the beatings. I'm glad Codifil was around when I was younger, or we might have been totally lost to history.

https://www.wafb.com/story/11572984/c​a​jun-french-efforting-comeback-in-louis​iana/
 
2021-07-16 10:20:15 PM  

Aussie_As: Boo_Guy: That moron's party actually tweeted this out after:
[i.redd.it image 612x212]

Ha ha then that was massivly undermined by his subsequent retraction and admission that he "misspoke". What a bunch of arseholes. Thanks for posting that, as much as this is not a funny issue that has cracked me up.


Ya huh, then they deleted the tweet.

The twit doing their tweeting might want to refrain from knee-jerk responses in the future.

They won't, but they should.
 
2021-07-16 10:21:51 PM  

FormlessOne: Slide10000: Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.

Fark that noise.

The oppressor doesn't get to tell the oppressed how they're allowed to express their displeasure at being oppressed. That argument is no different than claiming that taking a knee during a football game is somehow inappropriate because it's not the "proper venue," or "disrespects the game," or what-farking-ever.


I'm having a hard time with this.  Kinew is the leader of NDP, and there's protocol.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point.  As far as I'm concerned, Lagemodier should be turfed from government for this - immediately.  But Pallister won't do that.

I don't know.  I'm very tired and my brain probably isn't working right.  I'm going to give up even trying to make a position on this.

Sorry if I offended anyone
 
2021-07-16 10:23:35 PM  

Boo_Guy: Aussie_As: Boo_Guy: That moron's party actually tweeted this out after:
[i.redd.it image 612x212]

Ha ha then that was massivly undermined by his subsequent retraction and admission that he "misspoke". What a bunch of arseholes. Thanks for posting that, as much as this is not a funny issue that has cracked me up.

Ya huh, then they deleted the tweet.

The twit doing their tweeting might want to refrain from knee-jerk responses in the future.

They won't, but they should.


Nah, when they get called into the boss's office to explain this clusterfark they can just say they "misstyped" the tweet.
 
2021-07-16 10:40:12 PM  

Slide10000: Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.


Would you rather Kinew punched Lagemodier in the face? I wouldn't have blamed him.

Given the subject matter, I think Kinew handled himself impeccably Canadian.

/American
 
2021-07-16 11:07:30 PM  

Ragin' Asian: Research Canadian residential schools. They were hideously, intentionally cruel. To damned children who were stolen from their families.


Also note that the US had a basically identical program.
 
2021-07-16 11:13:38 PM  

UndeadPoetsSociety: Ragin' Asian: Research Canadian residential schools. They were hideously, intentionally cruel. To damned children who were stolen from their families.

Also note that the US had a basically identical program.


And as an Australian posting in this thread yeah, we had "assimilation" as national policy until the 1970's.
 
2021-07-16 11:16:25 PM  
A lot of people here seem to think this was some ambush by the opposition leader. It wasn't some misspeaking while being attacked.

The farker said in his remarks to the press:

"The residential-school system was designed to take Indigenous children and give them the skills and abilities they would need to fit into society as it moved forward"

After making such a horrible statement the opposition leader stood up and challenged it as any good person should have.
 
2021-07-16 11:22:04 PM  

Slide10000: Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.


Bull-farking-shiat.

This wasn't some random attack. Kinew responded to statements that shiathead deliberately made to the press. It wasn't some ambush with loaded questions or anything, it was a reasonable (and necessary) followup to the statements he made.
 
2021-07-16 11:26:58 PM  

JTtheCajun: Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?

You are right, but he still wasn't wrong. It's horrific, but they thought it was the right course of action. They aren't mutually exclusive ideas. He didn't say they WERE the right actions, just that they thought they were right.

My people went through an assimilation process, but not nearly as horrific. My great grandfather could barely speak English, but his son was punished by the nuns when he spoke French in classes. My dad didn't really speak it as much because his dad didn't speak it much at home because of the beatings. I'm glad Codifil was around when I was younger, or we might have been totally lost to history.

https://www.wafb.com/story/11572984/ca​jun-french-efforting-comeback-in-louis​iana/


Sorry, as an all-white white person surrounded by pure whiteness, "thinking it was right" doesn't sit well with me when it comes to justifying the past acts of others, especially like this. If they "thought they were right" why did they carry out their acts with such ruthless secrecy and complete disregard for the children and their families? Why continue into the 60's, 70's and goddamn 80's and 90's, well past the time everyone knew that forced assimilation was wrong and bad?

Hell, at least the American "Injun" hunters didn't pretend they were doing anything but exterminating the red man.  There was no pretense it was for their own good.
 
2021-07-16 11:35:24 PM  

Slide10000: FormlessOne: Slide10000: Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.

Fark that noise.

The oppressor doesn't get to tell the oppressed how they're allowed to express their displeasure at being oppressed. That argument is no different than claiming that taking a knee during a football game is somehow inappropriate because it's not the "proper venue," or "disrespects the game," or what-farking-ever.

I'm having a hard time with this.  Kinew is the leader of NDP, and there's protocol.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point.  As far as I'm concerned, Lagemodier should be turfed from government for this - immediately.  But Pallister won't do that.

I don't know.  I'm very tired and my brain probably isn't working right.  I'm going to give up even trying to make a position on this.

Sorry if I offended anyone


Nah, when someone is trying to defend this with that excuse protocol doesn't matter.

This is equivalent of the people who defend slavery because it was accepted and they thought the it was right and ok.

Which is bullshiat.  People knew then just as now that the treatment was wrong.  And context matters.  There are 2 was to say this and how you say it matters.  There's saying it in a way that implies they thought they were in the right but were wrong.  And then there's the way he said it which is "we shouldn't judge them so harshly because they thought they were in the right."

Which is bullshiat and should be called out on the spot, just like assholes with lost cause myth or defenders of those who held slaves because they thought it was right or defenders of slavery who say that slaves were treated right.  They knew it was wrong but made excuses and people continue to make excuses.

And the fact that residential schools didn't close until 1996 makes it even more of a bullshiat response.  If they knew when they opened it was wrong, the fact that there are people in their 20's who attended residential schools, that makes the statement even worse.
 
2021-07-16 11:50:42 PM  
FTFA:

"Manitoba's new minister overseeing Indigenous relations defended Canada's residential-school system minutes after he was sworn into cabinet, prompting a new round of criticism directed towards the Progressive Conservative government."

First you people put milk in bags and now you have a political party that calls themselves  "Progressive Conservative"!?

WTF Canucks?
 
2021-07-16 11:53:54 PM  

FormlessOne: Glenford: Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?

The mantra was "Kill the Indian, save the man."

Culturicide. As it was here in the United States, it was a deliberate, planned, continued act of culturicide.


That's really a distinction without much of a difference, expecially given the hundreds who died.
 
2021-07-16 11:54:39 PM  

Slide10000: FormlessOne: Slide10000: Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.

Fark that noise.

The oppressor doesn't get to tell the oppressed how they're allowed to express their displeasure at being oppressed. That argument is no different than claiming that taking a knee during a football game is somehow inappropriate because it's not the "proper venue," or "disrespects the game," or what-farking-ever.

I'm having a hard time with this.  Kinew is the leader of NDP, and there's protocol.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point.  As far as I'm concerned, Lagemodier should be turfed from government for this - immediately.  But Pallister won't do that.

I don't know.  I'm very tired and my brain probably isn't working right.  I'm going to give up even trying to make a position on this.

Sorry if I offended anyone


Protocol benefits the oppressor and hinders the oppressed.
 
2021-07-17 12:10:54 AM  
Let's quit glossing over the fact these were mostly Catholic schools, and a key part of the cultural genocide program was forcibly indoctrinating indigenous children into Christianity.
 
2021-07-17 12:21:03 AM  

dywed88: A lot of people here seem to think this was some ambush by the opposition leader. It wasn't some misspeaking while being attacked.

The farker said in his remarks to the press:

"The residential-school system was designed to take Indigenous children and give them the skills and abilities they would need to fit into society as it moved forward"

After making such a horrible statement the opposition leader stood up and challenged it as any good person should have.


And he wasn't speaking as the opposition. He started by saying that he was a part of the TRC.

He was correcting ignorance with knowledge.
 
2021-07-17 12:35:58 AM  
Aussie_As:

I forgot my fone on the bar when J went to drain the vain -- TFG it was still there when I got back

/oh
//that wasn't me then
 
Juc
2021-07-17 1:56:43 AM  

Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?


Nope. That was literally their reason for existence.
I wouldn't be surprised if the laws etc set up for the schools used that exact wording.
 
Juc
2021-07-17 2:05:55 AM  

Slide10000: Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.


Hell I'm surprised he opposition fellow didn't just tell "are you farking kidding me?" And cold cock that new Minister.
It's like just after getting appointed as an ambassador to Israel you go up in front of a crowd some of whom are promanant Jews and go "well at least Hitler liked dogs".
What he said was almost the single worst thing he could have at that time, in his position, and with the audience present.

It was just sooooo stupid. Mindboggling so
 
2021-07-17 7:37:36 AM  

Gyrfalcon: JTtheCajun: Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?

You are right, but he still wasn't wrong. It's horrific, but they thought it was the right course of action. They aren't mutually exclusive ideas. He didn't say they WERE the right actions, just that they thought they were right.

My people went through an assimilation process, but not nearly as horrific. My great grandfather could barely speak English, but his son was punished by the nuns when he spoke French in classes. My dad didn't really speak it as much because his dad didn't speak it much at home because of the beatings. I'm glad Codifil was around when I was younger, or we might have been totally lost to history.

https://www.wafb.com/story/11572984/ca​jun-french-efforting-comeback-in-louis​iana/

Sorry, as an all-white white person surrounded by pure whiteness, "thinking it was right" doesn't sit well with me when it comes to justifying the past acts of others, especially like this. If they "thought they were right" why did they carry out their acts with such ruthless secrecy and complete disregard for the children and their families? Why continue into the 60's, 70's and goddamn 80's and 90's, well past the time everyone knew that forced assimilation was wrong and bad?

Hell, at least the American "Injun" hunters didn't pretend they were doing anything but exterminating the red man.  There was no pretense it was for their own good.


I think it all comes down to remembering how most of us never see ourselves as the villain in a story. There are very few people that do awful things and twirl mustaches. It's a cautionary tale to be vigilant to not let ourselves be caught up in something similar.

Might be because I take that whole empathy thing seriously. I can understand how someone can do something horrible and justify it to themselves as being for the greater good and still not condone it or agree they were right. If we're just selectively putting ourselves in someone else's shoes, that's not very helpful.
 
2021-07-17 11:29:43 AM  
okay but to some degree he is correct:  white people would have thought that elevating the savage into a fancy white society man really was a real nice thing to do for them.  but white people have always been kinda clueless and deluded.
 
2021-07-17 11:57:46 AM  

JTtheCajun: Gyrfalcon: JTtheCajun: Gyrfalcon: I'm not Canadian, but I'm pretty sure the actual stated purpose of the residential schools WAS to "educate the Indian out of them", am I wrong?

You are right, but he still wasn't wrong. It's horrific, but they thought it was the right course of action. They aren't mutually exclusive ideas. He didn't say they WERE the right actions, just that they thought they were right.

My people went through an assimilation process, but not nearly as horrific. My great grandfather could barely speak English, but his son was punished by the nuns when he spoke French in classes. My dad didn't really speak it as much because his dad didn't speak it much at home because of the beatings. I'm glad Codifil was around when I was younger, or we might have been totally lost to history.

https://www.wafb.com/story/11572984/ca​jun-french-efforting-comeback-in-louis​iana/

Sorry, as an all-white white person surrounded by pure whiteness, "thinking it was right" doesn't sit well with me when it comes to justifying the past acts of others, especially like this. If they "thought they were right" why did they carry out their acts with such ruthless secrecy and complete disregard for the children and their families? Why continue into the 60's, 70's and goddamn 80's and 90's, well past the time everyone knew that forced assimilation was wrong and bad?

Hell, at least the American "Injun" hunters didn't pretend they were doing anything but exterminating the red man.  There was no pretense it was for their own good.

I think it all comes down to remembering how most of us never see ourselves as the villain in a story. There are very few people that do awful things and twirl mustaches. It's a cautionary tale to be vigilant to not let ourselves be caught up in something similar.

Might be because I take that whole empathy thing seriously. I can understand how someone can do something horrible and justify it to themselves as being for the greater good and still not condone it or agree they were right. If we're just selectively putting ourselves in someone else's shoes, that's not very helpful.


Counterpoint: the actions they were performing were objectively evil, and decent people don't give a flaming fark what they told themselves, anymore than we do the people who organized the Holocaust.
 
2021-07-17 1:37:15 PM  

Slide10000: Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.



I hear they're rushing out an updated version of this book for the Canadian Market. Should be a big seller.

Maybe Wab KInew can get a signed first-edition.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-17 1:38:56 PM  

UndeadPoetsSociety: Counterpoint: the actions they were performing were objectively evil, and decent people don't give a flaming fark what they told themselves, anymore than we do the people who organized the Holocaust.


There is no objective measure of ethics when you get down to the nitty gritty of things. It shocks most of our current consciousnesses because of our own personal experiences. Our species is a work in progress.

Like a lot of things, it's a social construct. We, collectively, decide what is or isn't acceptable to remain affiliated with the "good" and the "bad" parts of society. Over time, that bar changes. There IS a part of human nature that prides "standing up for what is right in the face of massive opposition." If someone agrees with what is "right" there, then they applaud the actions. If someone doesn't agree with what is "right" then they decry the actions.

Let's take a current example. Some people are cheering the actions of the Texas Democrats for avoiding the quorum. If one thinks what they are doing is "right", then they applaud the actions. If one thinks what they are doing is "wrong" then they decry them. There are some people that agree with the end goals of what the Democrats are doing, but don't agree with the methods.

Some people might AGREE that teaching native people about Enlightenment ideals are a good thing, but were either ignorant or indifferent to the methods of these schools used. Some might have even agreed, because they thought the ends justified the means.

It's easy to sit in moral judgement over a time and place far removed, with more information than some on the ground had. Condemning the actions of the past are only really useful if we're learning lessons in how NOT to repeat those mistakes...if we're even capable of learning from those mistakes. Sometimes, I'm not so sure. History doesn't repeat itself, but sometimes it rhymes, as Twain said.
 
2021-07-17 1:53:18 PM  

JTtheCajun: UndeadPoetsSociety: Counterpoint: the actions they were performing were objectively evil, and decent people don't give a flaming fark what they told themselves, anymore than we do the people who organized the Holocaust.

There is no objective measure of ethics when you get down to the nitty gritty of things. It shocks most of our current consciousnesses because of our own personal experiences. Our species is a work in progress.

Like a lot of things, it's a social construct. We, collectively, decide what is or isn't acceptable to remain affiliated with the "good" and the "bad" parts of society. Over time, that bar changes. There IS a part of human nature that prides "standing up for what is right in the face of massive opposition." If someone agrees with what is "right" there, then they applaud the actions. If someone doesn't agree with what is "right" then they decry the actions.

Let's take a current example. Some people are cheering the actions of the Texas Democrats for avoiding the quorum. If one thinks what they are doing is "right", then they applaud the actions. If one thinks what they are doing is "wrong" then they decry them. There are some people that agree with the end goals of what the Democrats are doing, but don't agree with the methods.

Some people might AGREE that teaching native people about Enlightenment ideals are a good thing, but were either ignorant or indifferent to the methods of these schools used. Some might have even agreed, because they thought the ends justified the means.

It's easy to sit in moral judgement over a time and place far removed, with more information than some on the ground had. Condemning the actions of the past are only really useful if we're learning lessons in how NOT to repeat those mistakes...if we're even capable of learning from those mistakes. Sometimes, I'm not so sure. History doesn't repeat itself, but sometimes it rhymes, as Twain said.


There's plenty of moral judgement from people of those times available to those who actually care. Much of it from the victims, and I care a lot more about the moral judgement of people whose children were taken from them to die far from home at the hands of vile strangers than I do for that of the people knowingly and deliberately committing genocide.
 
2021-07-17 1:59:07 PM  
Addendum to the above:
Especially since "those times" are recent enough that my uncle and mother in law both have personal memories thereof.
 
2021-07-17 2:09:56 PM  

Slide10000: Lagemodier is an idiot, and there's no excuse for what he said.  However, I do have a problem with the way Kinew did it.  I get that it's an issue that tears at his soul (and rightly so) but that was the wrong way to do it.  It should have been brought up in the legislature, during question period,  not on the steps.


"Should have". I guess the dominate culture gets exclusive say on where conversations "should" take place? Had Wab Kinew brought it up in the legislature not as many people would be talking about it...I know I wouldn't have noticed. Anyway, I think Wab is awesome for bringing it up this way...and even more awesome because he probably doesn't care what a white guy like me in Ottawa thinks about decorum.
 
Juc
2021-07-17 3:54:05 PM  

UndeadPoetsSociety: Addendum to the above:
Especially since "those times" are recent enough that my uncle and mother in law both have personal memories thereof.


last school was closed in what? 1996?
that's recent enough that people my age were attending, and I'm not that old.
 
2021-07-17 4:45:03 PM  

Juc: UndeadPoetsSociety: Addendum to the above:
Especially since "those times" are recent enough that my uncle and mother in law both have personal memories thereof.

last school was closed in what? 1996?
that's recent enough that people my age were attending, and I'm not that old.


In Canada, yes, but the last one was back East, so my cousins weren't taken. It appears that the US hasn't stopped yet.
 
2021-07-17 6:00:53 PM  

JTtheCajun: UndeadPoetsSociety: Counterpoint: the actions they were performing were objectively evil, and decent people don't give a flaming fark what they told themselves, anymore than we do the people who organized the Holocaust.

There is no objective measure of ethics when you get down to the nitty gritty of things. It shocks most of our current consciousnesses because of our own personal experiences. Our species is a work in progress.

Like a lot of things, it's a social construct. We, collectively, decide what is or isn't acceptable to remain affiliated with the "good" and the "bad" parts of society. Over time, that bar changes. There IS a part of human nature that prides "standing up for what is right in the face of massive opposition." If someone agrees with what is "right" there, then they applaud the actions. If someone doesn't agree with what is "right" then they decry the actions.

Let's take a current example. Some people are cheering the actions of the Texas Democrats for avoiding the quorum. If one thinks what they are doing is "right", then they applaud the actions. If one thinks what they are doing is "wrong" then they decry them. There are some people that agree with the end goals of what the Democrats are doing, but don't agree with the methods.

Some people might AGREE that teaching native people about Enlightenment ideals are a good thing, but were either ignorant or indifferent to the methods of these schools used. Some might have even agreed, because they thought the ends justified the means.

It's easy to sit in moral judgement over a time and place far removed, with more information than some on the ground had. Condemning the actions of the past are only really useful if we're learning lessons in how NOT to repeat those mistakes...if we're even capable of learning from those mistakes. Sometimes, I'm not so sure. History doesn't repeat itself, but sometimes it rhymes, as Twain said.


Except this wasn't 1,000 years ago. It was the twentieth century. The schools peaked in the 1930s and the 1940s.

The government knew it was wrong to the degree that legally mandating the removal of the children was ended in the late 1940s except the promptly used economic coercion to pressure families to continue sending their children.
 
2021-07-17 7:04:55 PM  

UndeadPoetsSociety: JTtheCajun: UndeadPoetsSociety: Counterpoint: the actions they were performing were objectively evil, and decent people don't give a flaming fark what they told themselves, anymore than we do the people who organized the Holocaust.

There is no objective measure of ethics when you get down to the nitty gritty of things. It shocks most of our current consciousnesses because of our own personal experiences. Our species is a work in progress.

Like a lot of things, it's a social construct. We, collectively, decide what is or isn't acceptable to remain affiliated with the "good" and the "bad" parts of society. Over time, that bar changes. There IS a part of human nature that prides "standing up for what is right in the face of massive opposition." If someone agrees with what is "right" there, then they applaud the actions. If someone doesn't agree with what is "right" then they decry the actions.

Let's take a current example. Some people are cheering the actions of the Texas Democrats for avoiding the quorum. If one thinks what they are doing is "right", then they applaud the actions. If one thinks what they are doing is "wrong" then they decry them. There are some people that agree with the end goals of what the Democrats are doing, but don't agree with the methods.

Some people might AGREE that teaching native people about Enlightenment ideals are a good thing, but were either ignorant or indifferent to the methods of these schools used. Some might have even agreed, because they thought the ends justified the means.

It's easy to sit in moral judgement over a time and place far removed, with more information than some on the ground had. Condemning the actions of the past are only really useful if we're learning lessons in how NOT to repeat those mistakes...if we're even capable of learning from those mistakes. Sometimes, I'm not so sure. History doesn't repeat itself, but sometimes it rhymes, as Twain said.

There's plenty of moral judgement from people of those time ...


I'm not entirely sure a lot of the people involved even considered it genocide. They probably used more annodyne language like "assimilation" or "education". I'll reiterate, I'm not apologizing for the practice and I do think it meets the criteria of genocide.

Which, sort of, brings us back around full circle. There is a difference between "They didn't think what they were doing was wrong" and "What they were doing wasn't wrong." The ire of this piece seems weirdly misdirected to a person saying the former while treating it like he was saying the latter.
 
Displayed 50 of 53 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking




On Twitter


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.