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(Vice)   William Marston was a radical feminist psychologist who invented Wonder Woman as bondage-filled "psychological propaganda" for world peace   (vice.com) divider line
    More: Vintage, Wonder Woman, Feminism, William Marston, William Moulton Marston, comic author, Psychology, Polygraph, Lasso of Truth  
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468 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 15 Jul 2021 at 3:51 AM (2 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



49 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-07-14 11:40:28 PM  
He was also, by many accounts, more than a little weird if not outright looney.
 
2021-07-15 12:15:52 AM  
I suppose this is where my stupidity raises it's ugly head, I thought that was the name of the actor who played Spike on Buffy.
 
2021-07-15 12:32:02 AM  
But how did Snyder make her crab walk like that?!
 
2021-07-15 2:12:20 AM  
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2021-07-15 2:14:08 AM  
Today's WW

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2021-07-15 2:21:41 AM  
Marston was prone to sermonise when had chance

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2021-07-15 2:23:27 AM  
Modern

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2021-07-15 2:28:28 AM  
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2021-07-15 2:35:17 AM  
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2021-07-15 2:42:16 AM  
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2021-07-15 2:43:12 AM  
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2021-07-15 3:31:58 AM  
It's more complex than that

The good:
Marston wanted to create a female character to showcase the power a woman has.  A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

And she was written to be a woman, a fully-realized female character.  Not someone's wife, or daughter, or beloved aunt, or love interest... not an adjunct to a man.  The repeated 'bondage' scenes played on the images of the first-wave feminist movement, especially as birth control was involved -- women were depicted as chained or shackled.  Tying Wondy up was the necessary prelude to the image Marston loved, where she effortlessly snapped her bonds.

The bad:
Marston loved woman... but he loved them like a connoisseur or a fancier, like a wine collector.  Individual women were like interesting varietals on a basic idea, like all red wines are sort of the same.  He saw himself as the 'woman expert' to present Woman to the world of men -- even though he was married to a woman with a PhD who could have spoken for herself.  And yes, he thought all men were sort of alike too, but he didn't lump them all together like he did women.  He even collected women -- he told his wife flat-out that she could either accept the grad student he wanted to bring into their marriage or they could get a divorce.  Because why should the one bottle of red wine be unhappy that he wanted another one, amiright?

The ugly:
He was a raging narcissist.  He 'invented' the lie detector... or at least he found a correlation between lying and blood pressure... but the one time he tried to use it in court, the judge laughed him off.  He was always looking for his big thing, his claim to fame.  His colleagues found him intolerable.  He taught at universities, but he never lasted more than a few years at one place.  And as noted above, he took one of his students as a lover and then hid the relationship (he told people she was a widowed sister-in-law as I recall).  Then he had her write articles about him for magazines -- again, without mentioning that she lived with him and was the mother of some of his children.

The man was a complicated mess, and focusing on the "lol bondage" aspect of his life merely skims the surface.

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-History​-​Wonder-Woman/dp/0804173400/
 
2021-07-15 4:24:16 AM  
Reminds me, I should probably watch this movie at some point..
media-amazon.comView Full Size
 
2021-07-15 4:29:09 AM  

Chariset: It's more complex than that

The good:
Marston wanted to create a female character to showcase the power a woman has.  A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

And she was written to be a woman, a fully-realized female character.  Not someone's wife, or daughter, or beloved aunt, or love interest... not an adjunct to a man.  The repeated 'bondage' scenes played on the images of the first-wave feminist movement, especially as birth control was involved -- women were depicted as chained or shackled.  Tying Wondy up was the necessary prelude to the image Marston loved, where she effortlessly snapped her bonds.

The bad:
Marston loved woman... but he loved them like a connoisseur or a fancier, like a wine collector.  Individual women were like interesting varietals on a basic idea, like all red wines are sort of the same.  He saw himself as the 'woman expert' to present Woman to the world of men -- even though he was married to a woman with a PhD who could have spoken for herself.  And yes, he thought all men were sort of alike too, but he didn't lump them all together like he did women.  He even collected women -- he told his wife flat-out that she could either accept the grad student he wanted to bring into their marriage or they could get a divorce.  Because why should the one bottle of red wine be unhappy that he wanted another one, amiright?

The ugly:
He was a raging narcissist.  He 'invented' the lie detector... or at least he found a correlation between lying and blood pressure... but the one time he tried to use it in court, the judge laughed him off.  He was always looking for his big thin ...


Pretty typical for the era, really.  Dudes that regarded women as strange creatures to be studied were what passed for enlightened at the time - vs. me Tarzan you spread types I mean.  I suppose they were when you get right down to it, at least by comparison.  I'm sure people in 100 years or whatnot will consider us just as amusingly stupid about it.  Or less than amusingly stupid.  Could round up a few female opinions as to that one here and now.  To be fair, the honest ones will admit that there are plenty of examples of stupid going the other way too, but those far more rarely result in widespread repression, lowered wages, physical abuse, etc.
 
2021-07-15 5:00:52 AM  

Norwegian Squirrel: Reminds me, I should probably watch this movie at some point..[media-amazon.com image 426x597]


I wouldn't bother.
 
2021-07-15 5:39:32 AM  
d.newsweek.comView Full Size


qph.fs.quoracdn.netView Full Size


Just your average Friday night on Themyscira
 
2021-07-15 6:52:41 AM  
I didn't search too hard for background information, but I could have sworn I read the person who created the Wonder Woman character was also the person who invented the polygraph machine.
 
2021-07-15 6:55:45 AM  
Wonder Woman Opening and Closing Credits and Theme Song
Youtube imc_qG8Re2Q
 
2021-07-15 7:09:07 AM  
It is a well established fact that Marston was waaaaaaay into bondage, and that Wonder Woman was an outlet for that. The early books were rife with all sorts of rope-play references, and of course, Diana losing her powers if she's bound by a man.

Now, we're all wondering how much of the original the latest installment with Gal Gadot will channel that origin, and thus far, it's been pretty PG. Kicks above the waistline, Sunshine.
 
2021-07-15 7:23:15 AM  
 
2021-07-15 7:46:07 AM  
"What are you going to do now?"
 
2021-07-15 8:12:19 AM  
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2021-07-15 8:37:48 AM  

Norwegian Squirrel: Reminds me, I should probably watch this movie at some point..[media-amazon.com image 426x597]


It's better than either Wonder Woman movie.
 
2021-07-15 8:38:31 AM  

Ragin' Asian: I didn't search too hard for background information, but I could have sworn I read the person who created the Wonder Woman character was also the person who invented the polygraph machine.


This is correct.
 
2021-07-15 9:33:55 AM  

Ragin' Asian: I didn't search too hard for background information, but I could have sworn I read the person who created the Wonder Woman character was also the person who invented the polygraph machine.


WHAT??? This is the first time I've heard this.
 
2021-07-15 10:08:00 AM  

Chariset: A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.


That's a naive, idealized view of women.

A world ruled by women would be less violent than the male-dominated one we have, but it would be more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and more vain.

If someone is going to stab with a knife I'd rather it be in my chest than my back.
 
2021-07-15 10:17:43 AM  
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2021-07-15 10:57:34 AM  
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2021-07-15 11:22:26 AM  

Permanent Solutions For Permanent Problems: Chariset: A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

That's a naive, idealized view of women.

A world ruled by women would be less violent than the male-dominated one we have, but it would be more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and more vain.

If someone is going to stab with a knife I'd rather it be in my chest than my back.


I don't know what is making anyone think women wouldn't be as violent as men given half the chance to do it.
 
2021-07-15 11:29:08 AM  

discoballer: Permanent Solutions For Permanent Problems: Chariset: A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

That's a naive, idealized view of women.

A world ruled by women would be less violent than the male-dominated one we have, but it would be more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and more vain.

If someone is going to stab with a knife I'd rather it be in my chest than my back.

I don't know what is making anyone think women wouldn't be as violent as men given half the chance to do it.


I read something last year-ish about how women politicians are actually worse on average than men in terms of belligerence.  Until we reach gender parity in politics, however; it's likely indicative of how minorities have to work twice as hard to get half the recognition of their majority peers; and women politicians have to be uber-belligerent to get to the top.
 
2021-07-15 11:36:47 AM  

discoballer: I don't know what is making anyone think women wouldn't be as violent as men given half the chance to do it.


Not regarding violence, but ask women who are worse to women:  men or women.  I doubt the majority would answer men.
 
2021-07-15 12:18:10 PM  

discoballer: Permanent Solutions For Permanent Problems: Chariset: A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

That's a naive, idealized view of women.

A world ruled by women would be less violent than the male-dominated one we have, but it would be more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and more vain.

If someone is going to stab with a knife I'd rather it be in my chest than my back.

I don't know what is making anyone think women wouldn't be as violent as men given half the chance to do it.


History sure hasn't verified it.
Do some research on female rulers.
 
2021-07-15 12:47:21 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: discoballer: Permanent Solutions For Permanent Problems: Chariset: A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

That's a naive, idealized view of women.

A world ruled by women would be less violent than the male-dominated one we have, but it would be more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and more vain.

If someone is going to stab with a knife I'd rather it be in my chest than my back.

I don't know what is making anyone think women wouldn't be as violent as men given half the chance to do it.

History sure hasn't verified it.
Do some research on female rulers.


Like Olga of Kiev?
 
2021-07-15 1:15:53 PM  

discoballer: Herr Flick's Revenge: discoballer: Permanent Solutions For Permanent Problems: Chariset: A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

That's a naive, idealized view of women.

A world ruled by women would be less violent than the male-dominated one we have, but it would be more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and more vain.

If someone is going to stab with a knife I'd rather it be in my chest than my back.

I don't know what is making anyone think women wouldn't be as violent as men given half the chance to do it.

History sure hasn't verified it.
Do some research on female rulers.

Like Olga of Kiev?


Or Boudicca:
An estimated 70,000-80,000 Romans and British were killed in the three cities by those following Boudica
 
2021-07-15 1:23:30 PM  

mjbok: discoballer: I don't know what is making anyone think women wouldn't be as violent as men given half the chance to do it.

Not regarding violence, but ask women who are worse to women:  men or women.  I doubt the majority would answer men.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-15 1:24:16 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: discoballer: Herr Flick's Revenge: discoballer: Permanent Solutions For Permanent Problems: Chariset: A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

That's a naive, idealized view of women.

A world ruled by women would be less violent than the male-dominated one we have, but it would be more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and more vain.

If someone is going to stab with a knife I'd rather it be in my chest than my back.

I don't know what is making anyone think women wouldn't be as violent as men given half the chance to do it.

History sure hasn't verified it.
Do some research on female rulers.

Like Olga of Kiev?

Or Boudicca:
An estimated 70,000-80,000 Romans and British were killed in the three cities by those following Boudica


But Roman general Paulinus fought Boudicca's army to annihilation, and later she committed suicide.
 
2021-07-15 1:38:40 PM  

discoballer: Permanent Solutions For Permanent Problems: Chariset: A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

That's a naive, idealized view of women.

A world ruled by women would be less violent than the male-dominated one we have, but it would be more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and more vain.

If someone is going to stab with a knife I'd rather it be in my chest than my back.

I don't know what is making anyone think women wouldn't be as violent as men given half the chance to do it.


men might be better at inflicting physical damage but the idea that a world of female leaders would somehow be an utopia nuts. it's easy to say "life would be better if we were in charge" when you aren't and i've never seen a work-group of only women that didn't end in at least two factions forming and them turning on each other, which is to say that women are people and people do people stuff and fighting other people so you get their stuff is as people as people get.
 
2021-07-15 1:42:07 PM  

Norwegian Squirrel: Reminds me, I should probably watch this movie at some point..[media-amazon.com image 426x597]


I enjoyed it.

It doesn't portray the guy as above...

Chariset: he told his wife flat-out that she could either accept the grad student he wanted to bring into their marriage or they could get a divorce


That part is more layered and complicated then that. Which version is true? Likely the biography. Overall though a solid movie.

And yes, the sex scenes are hot.
 
2021-07-15 2:24:18 PM  

Permanent Solutions For Permanent Problems: Chariset: A man's way of making you give in is to force you.  A woman's way of making you give in is to love you.  Her physical strength -- and her lasso -- are metaphors for the way a woman would govern the world (in his view): by bringing everyone under her loving authority and making them obey her because they want to.  A world ruled entirely by women would never resort to threats of force, and thus it would be peaceful.

That's a naive, idealized view of women.

A world ruled by women would be less violent than the male-dominated one we have, but it would be more manipulative and passive-aggressive, and more vain.

If someone is going to stab with a knife I'd rather it be in my chest than my back.


Maggie Thatcher says "Hi" from hell.
 
2021-07-15 2:26:45 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: Norwegian Squirrel: Reminds me, I should probably watch this movie at some point..[media-amazon.com image 426x597]

I enjoyed it.

It doesn't portray the guy as above...

Chariset: he told his wife flat-out that she could either accept the grad student he wanted to bring into their marriage or they could get a divorce

That part is more layered and complicated then that. Which version is true? Likely the biography. Overall though a solid movie.

And yes, the sex scenes are hot.


From everything I've read (which admittedly is no where near comprehensive) his wife and lover got along well, and remained friends after his death.
 
2021-07-15 2:44:37 PM  
mmm   Lynda Carter
 
2021-07-15 2:48:52 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Jim from Saint Paul: Norwegian Squirrel: Reminds me, I should probably watch this movie at some point..[media-amazon.com image 426x597]

I enjoyed it.

It doesn't portray the guy as above...

Chariset: he told his wife flat-out that she could either accept the grad student he wanted to bring into their marriage or they could get a divorce

That part is more layered and complicated then that. Which version is true? Likely the biography. Overall though a solid movie.

And yes, the sex scenes are hot.

From everything I've read (which admittedly is no where near comprehensive) his wife and lover got along well, and remained friends after his death.


Me too. I didn't read the mentioned book above though, so I didn't want to dismiss it out of hand.
 
2021-07-15 2:59:56 PM  

E_Henry_Thripshaws_Disease: mmm   Lynda Carter


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-15 5:12:04 PM  

hubiestubert: It is a well established fact that Marston was waaaaaaay into bondage, and that Wonder Woman was an outlet for that. The early books were rife with all sorts of rope-play references, and of course, Diana losing her powers if she's bound by a man.

Now, we're all wondering how much of the original the latest installment with Gal Gadot will channel that origin, and thus far, it's been pretty PG. Kicks above the waistline, Sunshine.


true that. a married man, he had a young woman living with his family who he decorated in bondage / fetish attire - not latex love, but the weird huge wrist bangles and the like. nothing from nothing, i've been around creative types, musicians et cetera all my life. every one of them was a bit of a flake.
 
2021-07-15 5:13:11 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: From everything I've read (which admittedly is no where near comprehensive) his wife and lover got along well, and remained friends after his death.


His wife went along with it because 1. she had also signed on with Marston's views that the post-feminist family and marriage wouldn't be standard husband-and-wife, and 2. having Olive Byrne in the house meant there would be a housewife to watch the kids, so SHE could have a career and a family
 
2021-07-15 6:07:40 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-15 9:58:37 PM  

Snargi: [Fark user image 315x736]


Well sure, when she says that, it's okay. When I say it, I get a restraining order.
 
2021-07-16 6:29:40 AM  

bingethinker: Snargi: [Fark user image 315x736]

Well sure, when she says that, it's okay. When I say it, I get a restraining order.


A compulsion for restraint is not the same as a restraining order.
 
2021-07-16 10:49:07 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Jim from Saint Paul: Norwegian Squirrel: Reminds me, I should probably watch this movie at some point..[media-amazon.com image 426x597]

I enjoyed it.

It doesn't portray the guy as above...

Chariset: he told his wife flat-out that she could either accept the grad student he wanted to bring into their marriage or they could get a divorce

That part is more layered and complicated then that. Which version is true? Likely the biography. Overall though a solid movie.

And yes, the sex scenes are hot.

From everything I've read (which admittedly is no where near comprehensive) his wife and lover got along well, and remained friends after his death.


They didn't just remain friends, they lived together for like 40 more years till one of them died
 
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