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(OMG Ubuntu)   GNOME developers explain why they've been ripping every useful feature out of the applications they maintain. I'm not bitter   (omgubuntu.co.uk) divider line
    More: Stupid, Linux, GNOME's Tobias Bernard, GNOME, direction of the GNOME desktop, Tobias' help, GNOME desktop, building GNOME extensions Tobias, GNOME does  
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1069 clicks; posted to STEM » on 14 Jul 2021 at 2:05 AM (20 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



34 Comments     (+0 »)
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2021-07-13 9:26:03 PM  
To pave the way for RedHatOS (nee systemd).
 
2021-07-13 9:32:28 PM  
It's just a window manager. People treat them like it's Windows or something more than what it is.

Just install all the KDE and Gnome libs and use Fluxbox.
 
2021-07-13 9:42:02 PM  

Tr0mBoNe: It's just a window manager. People treat them like it's Windows or something more than what it is.

Just install all the KDE and Gnome libs and use Fluxbox.


Or XFCE
Or Cinnamon
Etc

Who uses gnome anymore? It turned into garbage with 3
 
2021-07-13 10:01:26 PM  
If I wanted Windows I'd run Windows.
 
2021-07-13 10:06:47 PM  
openSUSE with Cinnamon, tyvm.
 
2021-07-14 12:32:15 AM  

GardenWeasel: openSUSE with Cinnamon, tyvm.


You found a video card that works with openSUSE?  That's amazing!
 
2021-07-14 2:42:17 AM  
Normally you'd expect the code to run better when you take out cruft, but apparently that's bridge to far for GNU because gnome 3 runs like dogshiat.You'd have to really give it honest effort to fail that badly.

Tr0mBoNe:
Just install all the KDE and Gnome libs and use Fluxbox.

Ok but now you've got four problems...
 
2021-07-14 2:58:24 AM  
Thinking about the Gnome is-not-a-desktop paradigm, why even have a desktop at all? Seriously, why isn't the default window just a giant menu like Windows 8's Metro interface? Why have a wallpaper if you aren't supposed to be looking at a "desktop?"

For Tobias, this means GNOME should be free to abandon "old concepts like menu bars or status icons" so it can instead focus on trying to "invent something better" holistically, from the ground up - even if that turns out to the harder course of action.

"We make things harder and more confusing for the end-user because it's easier on the developers."

Antithetical to UNIX philosophy of least surprise at it's very core, and this is a software package from the group who supposedly has been a de facto Unix standard for decades! OS design patterns are the way they are because a keyboard and mouse is a terribly inefficient way to interface with a computer, and because of that, these established design patterns are what's most effective for the end-user to use.

People don't like using a computer for its own sake because it's not an enjoyable experience. People want to use a computer so they can get to the desktop and open Firefox up to watch porn and type stupid crap into Excel, maybe even at the same time!
 
2021-07-14 3:06:25 AM  
The article is a sad sad thing.. someone treading so carefully to not criticise something they obviously hate  (because it is a bunch of jagoffs declaring they know best and users are stupid) because presumably actually criticising the wrong neckbeard will see you hounded from the community

Good stuff.
 
2021-07-14 4:36:58 AM  
Well at least they aren't Visual Studio developers.
 
2021-07-14 5:43:50 AM  
If you're using an assload of extensions to get basic things that you expect then that DE is not for you

Honestly, Xfce has everything anyone needs built in to it.
 
2021-07-14 6:35:16 AM  
XFCE or Cinnamon work for me. I tend to stay with Cinnamon these days with Mint as my distro of choice.
 
2021-07-14 7:23:50 AM  
Maybe it's finally the year of the Mac desktop.
 
2021-07-14 7:30:21 AM  

Bob Down: Well at least they aren't Visual Studio developers.


Give them some credit.  At least they backed down and reverted the menyells back to proper-case menus.
 
2021-07-14 7:51:46 AM  
And here I am over on the Pantheon side of things. What- it's simple, clean, and stays out of my way, which is what I want most from my DE.
 
2021-07-14 7:52:02 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: GardenWeasel: openSUSE with Cinnamon, tyvm.

You found a video card that works with openSUSE?  That's amazing!


They aren't gaming machines, just integrated Intel graphics.
 
2021-07-14 8:01:25 AM  
"That the modern GNOME desktop doesn't consider itself a 'traditional desktop' is not a shock. GNOME Shell's raison d'être has, since its inception, been to build a 'modern' Linux desktop experience based on enabling its users to do more, and bowing to the prevailing conventions of the era isn't the best way to achieve that."

The best way a desktop to let users do more is to get the hell out of the way. Make it easy to access programs and data, and nothing else.
 
2021-07-14 8:14:08 AM  
Just about all of these people who find themselves in a position to make decisions to develop these open source "platforms" are prescriptive authoritarian ivory-tower pricks who think they know better than you do how you should do your work and go out of their way to inflict their way of doing things on you.

...but removing desktop icons was the correct decision.
 
2021-07-14 8:21:56 AM  

aerojockey: Just about all of these people who find themselves in a position to make decisions to develop these open source "platforms" are prescriptive authoritarian ivory-tower pricks who think they know better than you do how you should do your work and go out of their way to inflict their way of doing things on you.


That could be said of every modern OS vendor.

imcclass.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2021-07-14 8:53:31 AM  
I like GNOME...

It has its quirks, but it works well.

That said, I also like XFCE, Mate, Cinnamon, and KDE - they all do effectively the same thing and all are usable.
 
2021-07-14 8:56:36 AM  

the_rhino: all are usable


Try programming one of the silly buggers.
 
2021-07-14 9:10:28 AM  
Tried to read that mass of useless bleating masquerading as an article, and didn't quite finish.
 
2021-07-14 9:35:24 AM  

Stibium: Normally you'd expect the code to run better when you take out cruft, but apparently that's bridge to far for GNU because gnome 3 runs like dogshiat.You'd have to really give it honest effort to fail that badly.

Tr0mBoNe: Just install all the KDE and Gnome libs and use Fluxbox.

Ok but now you've got four problems...


Four? Or four factorial?
 
2021-07-14 9:50:15 AM  

Stibium: Thinking about the Gnome is-not-a-desktop paradigm, why even have a desktop at all? Seriously, why isn't the default window just a giant menu like Windows 8's Metro interface? Why have a wallpaper if you aren't supposed to be looking at a "desktop?"

For Tobias, this means GNOME should be free to abandon "old concepts like menu bars or status icons" so it can instead focus on trying to "invent something better" holistically, from the ground up - even if that turns out to the harder course of action.

"We make things harder and more confusing for the end-user because it's easier on the developers."


Ding ding ding. And the whole "If you don't like it, fix the app" shows that even more. MacOS and Windows manage to make consistent interface elements across apps. You can, if you want, build your own UI elements but most people decide that actually make the app do what they want it to do is better than building things that the windows interface should already be providing. Winamp is the only app I can think of that deliberately designed its own UI elements because part of the feature set was "you can make Winamp look like anything."


Antithetical to UNIX philosophy of least surprise at it's very core, and this is a software package from the group who supposedly has been a de facto Unix standard for decades!

It's one of the core philosophies, but it's derived from the more basic "do one thing and do it well." The Principle of Least Surprise is a core part of "doing it well." Another core principle of design, period, is "Be as simple as you can, but no simpler." - and Gnome is choosing to violate that as well.

I mean, what's the goal here. Gnome actually does nothing, it's all done by the apps?

People don't like using a computer for its own sake because it's not an enjoyable experience. People want to use a computer so they can get to the desktop and open Firefox up to watch porn and type stupid crap into Excel, maybe even at the same time!

I'm going to simplify that because it's something I've been saying for years. People do not use just computers, just like people do not just use screwdrivers. People use computers and screwdrivers *to do things* - and is that doing thing that they actually want. The computer is just a tool, like the screwdriver. If they didn't need a screwdriver to do what they want to do, they won't use it. If they don't need a computer, they won't use it.

The idea that the app is the most important thing is not wrong by any means - people, even hardcore computer nerds doing OS development as a hobby - do things WITH the computer, and apps are what enables that. Without apps, computers are useless, the more useful apps a computer has available, the more useful it is. Indeed, we still talk about "the killer app" - the app that makes a given computer SO useful that it becomes almost mandatory to have in that realm.

Which is why the point of an OS+GUI is to support the development of applications that people want to use. The   GNOME ideal seems close to "the app should do that" on everything. That makes app development harder, and will drive useful app developers to other platforms, either running on Linux-style OSes or other OSes completely.
 
2021-07-14 9:54:40 AM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: I mean, what's the goal here. Gnome actually does nothing, it's all done by the apps?


To not mimic Windows or MacOS because they have cooties.
 
2021-07-14 10:21:05 AM  

Bob Down: Well at least they aren't Visual Studio developers.


Visual Studio has been going out of their way to make things worse for years.
 
2021-07-14 10:34:20 AM  

NateAsbestos: Tr0mBoNe: It's just a window manager. People treat them like it's Windows or something more than what it is.

Just install all the KDE and Gnome libs and use Fluxbox.

Or XFCE
Or Cinnamon
Etc

Who uses gnome anymore? It turned into garbage with 3


Yeah, KDE and GNOME are all just bloat and have been for years.  I mean, if you're coming from windows and want something that looks and acts almost exactly identical, KDE is for you.  But I'm not that kinda guy.

Never heard of cinnamon.  I don't think enlightenment ever got finished (did it?  It sounded cool in theory.)... but when I had linux and BSD, I definitely always used XFCE.  Always enjoyed that.
 
2021-07-14 10:42:15 AM  
Gnome reworked by Ubuntu and/or Pop actually looks nice and is usable. Gnome3 when it came out was a mess 10 years ago -- the last time the Desktop was supposedly "Dead."

That said, I don't understand why Linux people seem to think that somewhere between 1998 and 2004 is the golden age of desktops: KDE still looks like an upgraded XP Desktop to me, and XFCE looks like Windows 98 but better. Most of the stuff on r/Unixporn they're trying to show off looks like someone watched too much of The Matrix and still have a copy on their harddrive in Divx.

At least Gnome 3 and 40 look like they realize it's not trying to out-do WindowsME.
 
2021-07-14 11:22:41 AM  

csi_yellowknife: I don't understand why Linux people seem to think that somewhere between 1998 and 2004 is the golden age of desktops: KDE still looks like an upgraded XP Desktop to me, and XFCE looks like Windows 98 but better.


They target people pissed off by Microsoft deprecating XP and/or 7
 
2021-07-14 1:11:47 PM  

csi_yellowknife: That said, I don't understand why Linux people seem to think that somewhere between 1998 and 2004 is the golden age of desktops: KDE still looks like an upgraded XP Desktop to me, and XFCE looks like Windows 98 but better. Most of the stuff on r/Unixporn they're trying to show off looks like someone watched too much of The Matrix and still have a copy on their harddrive in Divx.


I don't understand why the desktop industry has turned into the fashion industry. Does the Windows 10 desktop actually have anything that makes it more powerful or more usable than Windows XP, especially given the amount of additional resources it requires? In my experience, the answer is no, so why change it?
 
2021-07-14 1:22:49 PM  

csi_yellowknife: hat said, I don't understand why Linux people seem to think that somewhere between 1998 and 2004 is the golden age of desktops


There were a lot of good desktop concepts of the day, but as far as Linux goes it was the golden age for distros for me. Distro tools were getting fleshed out to being really useful, but not so complicated that you couldn't understand them or the entirety of the OS. Graphics were getting good too, and it wasn't that hard to compile kernel modules and get things to work without forgetting how you did that.

That's been the biggest hangup I've had with Linux ever since Fedora dropped Core. There's always some sharp edge somewhere that could be smoothed, but you can't quite get to it without being very well-versed in the respective distro tooling. Ultimately you might end up solving the problem, but do you remember how you did it?

Here is an example; the biggest problem I have with Linux is that I use a Macbook, and on this Macbook I run OSX for the vastly superior touchpad driver. Someone has written a non-USB replacement driver for Linux, but Linux is now a CF-and-a-half where even if I do manage to get that driver running, the update process is just going to clobber my kernel at some point. Because the process was so arcane I have to basically start over from scratch and figure out the process all over again. You can't just easily automate the process away in an intuitive manner.

Linux is objectively worse in every way except out-of-the-box experience. As long as you don't fark with it, it'll work. And if you fark with it, you have to know practically everything about how your distro works beforehand. Thanks to GNU the precedent is set to abandon POSIX principles without good reason, which encourages developers to go even further and hack the GNU tools themselves so their respective kludges finish compiling instead of just doing things the right way in the beginning. You wind up with one distro able to do something that another can't, but if you switch then suddenly you find out something this distro doesn't do that the other one did!

It's all so very stupid, and it's why I abandoned Linux about five years ago after using it as a daily driver for ten years. OSX is POSIX-compliant by design. Everything just works, by design. Linux is going the opposite direction over time because it doesn't have standards other than GNU, and GNU does not respect UNIX standards. The only thing left for me is KISS Linux and Plan 9.
 
2021-07-14 1:35:29 PM  
Gnome sucks. It has for a long time. Mint with either Cinnamon or XFCE is 100% the way to go depending on what you do with your particular system.
 
2021-07-14 6:27:03 PM  

Dadoo: csi_yellowknife: That said, I don't understand why Linux people seem to think that somewhere between 1998 and 2004 is the golden age of desktops: KDE still looks like an upgraded XP Desktop to me, and XFCE looks like Windows 98 but better. Most of the stuff on r/Unixporn they're trying to show off looks like someone watched too much of The Matrix and still have a copy on their harddrive in Divx.

I don't understand why the desktop industry has turned into the fashion industry. Does the Windows 10 desktop actually have anything that makes it more powerful or more usable than Windows XP, especially given the amount of additional resources it requires? In my experience, the answer is no, so why change it?


Windows 3.11 offered a fantastic desktop experience. Then MS released Windows 95. Sometimes newer is better.
 
2021-07-15 1:14:25 AM  

enry: If I wanted Windows I'd run Windows.


Gnome seems a lot more Mac like to me. But a bad imitator. These days gnome is just an abortion.
 
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