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(Fark)   Just watched Night Stalker, a documentary about serial killer Richard Ramirez. Do you think killers are born or raised? Why?   (fark.com) divider line
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91 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 09 Jul 2021 at 4:10 AM (2 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-07-08 10:08:36 PM  
Some people are born broken and stay that way their entire lives.
 
2021-07-08 10:12:28 PM  
Sometimes it is genetic.

Sometimes it is circumstantial.

Sometimes it is a bit of each.

Most of the time it's both.
 
2021-07-08 10:12:48 PM  
denofgeek.comView Full Size
 
2021-07-08 10:18:19 PM  
Humanity puts too much faith in the concept of free will
 
2021-07-08 10:21:24 PM  
I blame Heavy Metal
 
2021-07-08 10:22:11 PM  
Both.

Oh, and clearly it's all because of video games.
/s
 
2021-07-08 10:24:09 PM  
None of the serial killers I've ever heard of, were raised by serial killers. Dahmer's parents seemed like the nicest folks in the world. I think every parent just crosses their fingers against that outcome.
 
2021-07-08 10:31:31 PM  
Sociopathy isn't learned behavior. Have you ever heard of Israel Keys? Scary stuff
 
2021-07-08 10:35:19 PM  

Lambskincoat: None of the serial killers I've ever heard of, were raised by serial killers. Dahmer's parents seemed like the nicest folks in the world. I think every parent just crosses their fingers against that outcome.


Watch the documentary or wiki his upbringing. It is ugly. I understand this isn't the norm, as most killers develop their own...proclivities, regardless of even a good upbringing (e.g. Ted Bundy). But this guy had some special familial influences. It is interesting to note, too, that Ramirez makes a comment on whether killers are born or raised. He may have had the inclinations, but the influence of close relatives was considerable.
 
2021-07-08 10:40:48 PM  
But let's be real, the most shocking thing about the documentary was Diane Feinstein farking up the investigation while already looking old AF in the 80s. And by shocking I mean not shocking at all
 
2021-07-08 10:46:35 PM  

Butterflew: But let's be real, the most shocking thing about the documentary was Diane Feinstein farking up the investigation while already looking old AF in the 80s. And by shocking I mean not shocking at all


They all looked old as fark in the 80s. And yes, she farked up royally, supposedly no one told her to keep her mouth shut? It pissed me off how they had to appease that reporter as well, so she wouldn't give away the only piece of evidence they had on the guy at the time. It is astounding how narrow-minded news media is- "we want a story, even if it means a killer gets tipped off, becomes more careful, and more people die as a result."
 
2021-07-08 11:07:46 PM  
I couldn't tell you whether serial killers are born or raised. I just know that my grand-nephew killed his father, my nephew.

An 8-year-old charged as an adult? Really
 
2021-07-08 11:37:24 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: I couldn't tell you whether serial killers are born or raised. I just know that my grand-nephew killed his father, my nephew.

An 8-year-old charged as an adult? Really


Did they try to say it was self-defense? What happened?
 
2021-07-08 11:47:41 PM  

thermo: I blame Heavy Metal


I think I remember from the time that he took that name from the AC/DC song.
 
2021-07-09 12:13:10 AM  

revrendjim: thermo: I blame Heavy Metal

I think I remember from the time that he took that name from the AC/DC song.



Ah, creative morons inspiring a dangerous moron. smh

Perhaps the news outlet, who coined Night Stalker, chose "stalker" instead of "prowler" to avoid any legal issues with the band.
 
2021-07-09 4:16:57 AM  
The same methods that the military uses to break down inhibitions against the usual social ape behavior inhibitions about seriously harming other members of the species can be applied by society in general, and entirely by accident, and without a focus to point that will to do harm, folks can get awful creative on where that goes. We have turned out killers for generations by simply keeping the pot stirred, and keeping folks who desperately need help far and away from the care that they need.

But that doesn't limit the killers in our midst from simply being born without those ingrained violence limitations. You can do an end run around evolution fairly easy with a slight variance in biochemistry or tiny physical mutation. Some folks are just born broken inside, unable to make those connections, unable to see others as even being vaguely important. They don't fit in the normal social ape paradigm. The variations have the ability to mimic those behaviors to a limited degree, because those that didn't were turned from the troop or tribe and a lone human is relatively easy meat. The power of humanity comes from being part of a troop, organized and coordinated, and able to plan and execute complex tasks on our own and in smaller groups towards a larger goal. Social behavior IS how we survived the savanna and plains. F*ck with that, and you f*ck with the survival of the species, so the ones that couldn't mimic the social cues, even without really understanding them, they have been essentially bait and tribute to the predators. As we got more organized, with better technologies, those that were born broken could sometimes gain some prestige because they could do what others never considered, but cross that line, and they're once again just meat for buzzards. The ability to mimic those who DO understand social cues was indispensable as a survival trait.

But some folks are still just born broken. Most don't really do much, and go about lives of mild confusion and annoyance, unable to navigate a world designed for very social apes. Some go on to get some enjoyment from poking frogs and cats until they open and the pretty colors appear. Some take that further. Because they just ain't right.

The answer to the question is both. We seek to break the social limitations on harming one another seriously in a deliberate fashion, and we've gotten pretty good at it over the years. We have likewise managed to create conditions in society that sometimes do that same job entirely accidentally. When it's done deliberately, we tend to give it a focus, and with slightly different limitations to prevent just turning mad dogs loose once we don't need soldiers and killers to do stuff. The ones we create accidentally, they just percolate a while until they have just enough, and then lash out, or decide to take their pound or twenty of flesh. And then there are those who are just born broken. Not all of them turn crazed killers, most are just broken and get taken off the board by their behavior early, because it's just off from the norm, and social apes, when we focus, can often suss out those who just don't fit. It's normal, it's natural, and removing those who would harm the troop reinforces the troop. At our heart, all hubris and grandiosity aside, we're still troop primates at our heart. We just have the ability to consistently enlarge our idea of 'troop' a bit compared to our ancestors. People can just be born broken, or we can accidentally or even deliberately break them. It's not an either/or question.
 
2021-07-09 4:18:29 AM  
I think it's a combination of nature and nurture. There are psychopaths among us who do not kill others because they were raised not to. There are non-psychopaths who had awful childhoods who do not kill others because it's not in them to do that.
 
2021-07-09 4:30:16 AM  

Wendigogo: Lambskincoat: None of the serial killers I've ever heard of, were raised by serial killers. Dahmer's parents seemed like the nicest folks in the world. I think every parent just crosses their fingers against that outcome.

Watch the documentary or wiki his upbringing. It is ugly. I understand this isn't the norm, as most killers develop their own...proclivities, regardless of even a good upbringing (e.g. Ted Bundy). But this guy had some special familial influences. It is interesting to note, too, that Ramirez makes a comment on whether killers are born or raised. He may have had the inclinations, but the influence of close relatives was considerable.


Ted Bundy was a child of incest after his grandpa raped his mom. His grandfather was an incredible violent man.

Bundy lied to make his childhood sound normal. It wasn't.
 
2021-07-09 4:42:18 AM  

cman: Humanity puts too much faith in the concept of free will


And idiots believe in stupid things like fate or destiny or whatever to use it as a pathetic excuse about why their choices are not actually their fault.


We all choose to be who we are. We choose to get help or to turn help away. We choose to fight our own darkness or to let it take over. While there are times when circumstances present us with extremely limited options, we are still the only ones who make the choice to act the way we do.
 
2021-07-09 5:39:21 AM  

cman: Humanity puts too much faith in the concept of free will


Alternatively, humanity puts too little weight on the concept of free will.  While there are certainly serials that are quite verifiably and medically insane, some of them just like to kill people.  They enjoy it.  Not because they think that they're not real, or because they're delusional and the dog told them to, or because they're re-enacting earlier abuse in their life, or because they have some warped sexual wiring - but simply because it's fun for them

No one likes to hear that.  The idea that a person has to be ill to do that sort of thing gives people an illusion of understanding, that there aren't people that are willfully and voluntarily just evil, horrible motherfarkers.  But it's the case.  Sure, some are mentally ill - treat them accordingly.  But there are most certainly those that are just evil, and the willful inability of others to believe in evil like that is something they'll happily exploit.  These are people that choose to be murderous shiats because they want to.  End of story

/see also modern politics where a similar situation obtains
//how often do you hear, "He she must be crazy" or the like in Pol threads?  Mostly, no - they're just evil.  ///But it's a lot more comforting to believe they must be mentally ill, so that's what people do
 
2021-07-09 5:39:36 AM  

lifeslammer: cman: Humanity puts too much faith in the concept of free will

And idiots believe in stupid things like fate or destiny or whatever to use it as a pathetic excuse about why their choices are not actually their fault.


We all choose to be who we are. We choose to get help or to turn help away. We choose to fight our own darkness or to let it take over. While there are times when circumstances present us with extremely limited options, we are still the only ones who make the choice to act the way we do.


There is no such thing as fate or destiny. We are who we are. Biological machines that react to stimuli. We believe that we are in control and that we make our own decisions. But we do not. It is a combination of our hardware (our genetics) and our software (our experiences) that work in tandem to make the decisions for you.
 
2021-07-09 5:53:22 AM  

cman: lifeslammer: cman: Humanity puts too much faith in the concept of free will

And idiots believe in stupid things like fate or destiny or whatever to use it as a pathetic excuse about why their choices are not actually their fault.


We all choose to be who we are. We choose to get help or to turn help away. We choose to fight our own darkness or to let it take over. While there are times when circumstances present us with extremely limited options, we are still the only ones who make the choice to act the way we do.

There is no such thing as fate or destiny. We are who we are. Biological machines that react to stimuli. We believe that we are in control and that we make our own decisions. But we do not. It is a combination of our hardware (our genetics) and our software (our experiences) that work in tandem to make the decisions for you.


Only to a point, otherwise that's bosh.  Take two people with similar heritages, upbringings, genetics, life stories, etc. etc. ad nauseam.  One is a horrible piece of shiat, the other is a reasonably average person?  Why?  There's only so far the hardware/wetware determinism theory can take you.  Those things predispose, most certainly - sometimes quite heavily - but in the end the decision is your own.  Otherwise you'd never see the heel turns that happen with the good, the bad, and the average quite regularly.  For better or worse?  Can go either way, but people do act against their programming on a pretty damn regular basis
 
2021-07-09 5:56:47 AM  
Interesting read on the subject.  Goes over Bundy, De Salvo, Kemper, Essex, Starkweather, and Berkowitz :
Fark user imageView Full Size

"Leyton looks beyond the hysteria, delving further into the often alarmingly human motivations of multiple killers. He shows how serial and mass murders are not simply the acts of deranged minds but are the personalized protests by alienated men against the society they believe has excluded them."
 
2021-07-09 6:05:47 AM  

Biledriver: Interesting read on the subject.  Goes over Bundy, De Salvo, Kemper, Essex, Starkweather, and Berkowitz :
[Fark user image 279x417]
"Leyton looks beyond the hysteria, delving further into the often alarmingly human motivations of multiple killers. He shows how serial and mass murders are not simply the acts of deranged minds but are the personalized protests by alienated men against the society they believe has excluded them."


This looks interesting. Thanks for sharing.
 
2021-07-09 6:25:31 AM  

cman: There is no such thing as fate or destiny. We are who we are. Biological machines that react to stimuli. We believe that we are in control and that we make our own decisions. But we do not. It is a combination of our hardware (our genetics) and our software (our experiences) that work in tandem to make the decisions for you.


If we are not in control, wouldn't that mean fate and destiny are eminently real? If the universe is deterministic, everything is pre-ordained and thus everything that happens is fated/destined to happen.
 
2021-07-09 7:11:19 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: cman: lifeslammer: cman: Humanity puts too much faith in the concept of free will

And idiots believe in stupid things like fate or destiny or whatever to use it as a pathetic excuse about why their choices are not actually their fault.


We all choose to be who we are. We choose to get help or to turn help away. We choose to fight our own darkness or to let it take over. While there are times when circumstances present us with extremely limited options, we are still the only ones who make the choice to act the way we do.

There is no such thing as fate or destiny. We are who we are. Biological machines that react to stimuli. We believe that we are in control and that we make our own decisions. But we do not. It is a combination of our hardware (our genetics) and our software (our experiences) that work in tandem to make the decisions for you.

Only to a point, otherwise that's bosh.  Take two people with similar heritages, upbringings, genetics, life stories, etc. etc. ad nauseam.  One is a horrible piece of shiat, the other is a reasonably average person?  Why?  There's only so far the hardware/wetware determinism theory can take you.  Those things predispose, most certainly - sometimes quite heavily - but in the end the decision is your own.  Otherwise you'd never see the heel turns that happen with the good, the bad, and the average quite regularly.  For better or worse?  Can go either way, but people do act against their programming on a pretty damn regular basis


Now you're begging the question.

Your explanation for the non-deterministic universe includes the assumption that people can make choices and that would automatically preclude a deterministic universe.
 
2021-07-09 7:16:51 AM  

holdmybones: Wendigogo: Lambskincoat: None of the serial killers I've ever heard of, were raised by serial killers. Dahmer's parents seemed like the nicest folks in the world. I think every parent just crosses their fingers against that outcome.

Watch the documentary or wiki his upbringing. It is ugly. I understand this isn't the norm, as most killers develop their own...proclivities, regardless of even a good upbringing (e.g. Ted Bundy). But this guy had some special familial influences. It is interesting to note, too, that Ramirez makes a comment on whether killers are born or raised. He may have had the inclinations, but the influence of close relatives was considerable.

Ted Bundy was a child of incest after his grandpa raped his mom. His grandfather was an incredible violent man.

Bundy lied to make his childhood sound normal. It wasn't.


The incest was a theory, not a fact. Though it is said his grandfather was an angry, violent man.
 
2021-07-09 7:18:16 AM  

DerAppie: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: cman: lifeslammer: cman: Humanity puts too much faith in the concept of free will

And idiots believe in stupid things like fate or destiny or whatever to use it as a pathetic excuse about why their choices are not actually their fault.


We all choose to be who we are. We choose to get help or to turn help away. We choose to fight our own darkness or to let it take over. While there are times when circumstances present us with extremely limited options, we are still the only ones who make the choice to act the way we do.

There is no such thing as fate or destiny. We are who we are. Biological machines that react to stimuli. We believe that we are in control and that we make our own decisions. But we do not. It is a combination of our hardware (our genetics) and our software (our experiences) that work in tandem to make the decisions for you.

Only to a point, otherwise that's bosh.  Take two people with similar heritages, upbringings, genetics, life stories, etc. etc. ad nauseam.  One is a horrible piece of shiat, the other is a reasonably average person?  Why?  There's only so far the hardware/wetware determinism theory can take you.  Those things predispose, most certainly - sometimes quite heavily - but in the end the decision is your own.  Otherwise you'd never see the heel turns that happen with the good, the bad, and the average quite regularly.  For better or worse?  Can go either way, but people do act against their programming on a pretty damn regular basis

Now you're begging the question.

Your explanation for the non-deterministic universe includes the assumption that people can make choices and that would automatically preclude a deterministic universe.


Your explanation for a deterministic universe includes the assumption that people only have the illusion of choice, which precludes a non-deterministic universe.  That tends to happen with opposing viewpoints you know
 
2021-07-09 7:21:12 AM  

Butterflew: Sociopathy isn't learned behavior. Have you ever heard of Israel Keys? Scary stuff


Actually, sociopathy is learned.  As my kids' psychiatrist said, psychopaths are born, sociopath are made.  One of my kids has FAS, which basically eliminated the top third of the brain.  This is where higher ordered thinking occurs.  In essence, this kid has the old reptilian brain that sits on top of the brain stem, and not much else.  Having spent a couple of years with the birth family for more fun and games, this kid has amazing survival instincts, but almost nothing in the way of a moral compass.  No empathy for others, a chair is a tool to this kid, and so are human beings.  Years of therapy and medication, and simply waiting for this kid to develop has made an adult that is ready to fight like a trapped animal, if provoked.  Had this kid been removed at the moment of birth, with no further contact or abuse, the need to be ready to fight to the death most likely wouldn't be as strong.  Instead, this kid is a diagnosed sociopath.  Medication, support, and ongoing therapy makes this kid an acceptable member of society.

The other extreme kid in my life was born extremely premature, and was taken into custody immediately.  The moral compass is there, but most of the time, it is focused completely on the kid.  Anything the kid does is for the benefit of the kid.  This kid will manipulate anyone to get the desired results, but is absolutely enraged if anyone uses the same methods on this kid.  The last therapist to kick this kid out said the kid knew and could articulate actions, consequences, empathy, sympathy, and had zero interest in reciprocity with others.  This kid is a psychopath, and is already a burden on society.  Tax payer dollars are constantly being spent to clothe, house, and feed this kid, while keeping society safe by restricting this kid's geography.
 
2021-07-09 7:29:43 AM  
Psychopaths gonna psychopath. You can have a family with two perfectly functional wonderful parents who raise 3 well-adjusted ordinary kids, and then the 4th one lights cats on fire for fun when he's 6.

That said, psychopathy does run in families.
 
2021-07-09 8:13:32 AM  

HedlessChickn: Sometimes it is genetic.

Sometimes it is circumstantial.

Sometimes it is a bit of each.

Most of the time it's both.


Maybe it's Maybelline
 
2021-07-09 9:01:31 AM  

DerAppie: If we are not in control, wouldn't that mean fate and destiny are eminently real?


No, because there is no guarantee which option your brain will take. Fate and destiny have nothing to do with that.
 
2021-07-09 9:02:25 AM  

Butterflew: Sociopathy isn't learned behavior. Have you ever heard of Israel Keys? Scary stuff


"Sick" doesn't begin to describe this guy. Keys was a truly evil sack of shiat.

The way he killed Samantha Koening is beyond horrifying.

Evil lives among us.
 
2021-07-09 10:37:37 AM  

thermo: I blame Heavy Metal


As in lead in the water

or as in Led Zeppelin
 
2021-07-09 10:40:49 AM  

cman: DerAppie: If we are not in control, wouldn't that mean fate and destiny are eminently real?

No, because there is no guarantee which option your brain will take. Fate and destiny have nothing to do with that.


Well no, fate and destiny as metaphysical concepts do not.

but if the choice we end up with is based on
1) the input we receive
2) the internal state we collect based on previous inputs
3) our physical state at the moment of the choice

and the same input given a certain internal state always produces the same output for a person, then there can only ever be one option for every choice. Or do you not subscribe to the idea that the same input for a given state always produces the same output? i.e. there is some allowance for randomness.
 
2021-07-09 10:46:42 AM  

DerAppie: and the same input given a certain internal state always produces the same output for a person, then there can only ever be one option for every choice. Or do you not subscribe to the idea that the same input for a given state always produces the same output? i.e. there is some allowance for randomness.


If the exact circumstances were the same, I believe that the same results would happen.

But the problem with that is that nothing is ever exactly the same. I could spend 10 more seconds in the bathroom, and as a result some drunk driver who would have been nowhere near me had I not spent that extra time crashes into me and kills me. There is randomness but its in the way that everything coalesces together.
 
2021-07-09 11:52:50 AM  
I think the issue with some of these serial killers isn't that they're raised to be serial killers, it's that all of the signs that they're headed down that path are ignored until they become serial killers.  There's always a lot of "oh that makes a lot of sense now" when considering past behavior that was brushed aside earlier in their lives.  I wouldn't say they're born with those proclivities in general(but some appear to have biological causes, like Whitman), but that their lives frequently have intersections where they go the wrong way and it builds up to being a serial killer
 
2021-07-09 12:01:32 PM  

cman: DerAppie: and the same input given a certain internal state always produces the same output for a person, then there can only ever be one option for every choice. Or do you not subscribe to the idea that the same input for a given state always produces the same output? i.e. there is some allowance for randomness.

If the exact circumstances were the same, I believe that the same results would happen.

But the problem with that is that nothing is ever exactly the same. I could spend 10 more seconds in the bathroom, and as a result some drunk driver who would have been nowhere near me had I not spent that extra time crashes into me and kills me. There is randomness but its in the way that everything coalesces together.


Could you spend 10 seconds in the bathroom?  Or were you always going to spend 10 seconds in the bathroom?
 
2021-07-09 12:42:32 PM  
Every time I think I have problems of my own i look at these garbage humans.
 
2021-07-09 1:27:52 PM  
Both. The answer is pretty much always both.

Certain conditions of nature usually need to exist for nurture to have its effect.
 
2021-07-09 2:24:23 PM  

cherryl taggart: Butterflew: Sociopathy isn't learned behavior. Have you ever heard of Israel Keys? Scary stuff

Actually, sociopathy is learned.  As my kids' psychiatrist said, psychopaths are born, sociopath are made.  One of my kids has FAS, which basically eliminated the top third of the brain.  This is where higher ordered thinking occurs.  In essence, this kid has the old reptilian brain that sits on top of the brain stem, and not much else.  Having spent a couple of years with the birth family for more fun and games, this kid has amazing survival instincts, but almost nothing in the way of a moral compass.  No empathy for others, a chair is a tool to this kid, and so are human beings.  Years of therapy and medication, and simply waiting for this kid to develop has made an adult that is ready to fight like a trapped animal, if provoked.  Had this kid been removed at the moment of birth, with no further contact or abuse, the need to be ready to fight to the death most likely wouldn't be as strong.  Instead, this kid is a diagnosed sociopath.  Medication, support, and ongoing therapy makes this kid an acceptable member of society.

The other extreme kid in my life was born extremely premature, and was taken into custody immediately.  The moral compass is there, but most of the time, it is focused completely on the kid.  Anything the kid does is for the benefit of the kid.  This kid will manipulate anyone to get the desired results, but is absolutely enraged if anyone uses the same methods on this kid.  The last therapist to kick this kid out said the kid knew and could articulate actions, consequences, empathy, sympathy, and had zero interest in reciprocity with others.  This kid is a psychopath, and is already a burden on society.  Tax payer dollars are constantly being spent to clothe, house, and feed this kid, while keeping society safe by restricting this kid's geography.


Would you share the link that they are claiming between Cluster-B personality disorders and FAS?
 
2021-07-09 3:19:52 PM  

DerAppie: No, because there is no guarantee which option your brain will take.


But to the extent that's true, you're just in an arbitrary roguelike RNG hellhole.
 
2021-07-09 3:21:09 PM  

ryant123: arbitrary roguelike RNG hellhole.


To wit:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-07-09 3:35:25 PM  

DaWormyPimpsta: Butterflew: Sociopathy isn't learned behavior. Have you ever heard of Israel Keys? Scary stuff

"Sick" doesn't begin to describe this guy. Keys was a truly evil sack of shiat.

The way he killed Samantha Koening is beyond horrifying.

Evil lives among us.


That is horrifying. The fact that he could live a double life, have a girlfriend and a daughter, while committing these crimes is beyond disgusting. I've always been mystified by the duality of some of these killers.
 
2021-07-09 3:49:30 PM  

Rozotorical: cherryl taggart: Butterflew: Sociopathy isn't learned behavior. Have you ever heard of Israel Keys? Scary stuff

Actually, sociopathy is learned.  As my kids' psychiatrist said, psychopaths are born, sociopath are made.  One of my kids has FAS, which basically eliminated the top third of the brain.  This is where higher ordered thinking occurs.  In essence, this kid has the old reptilian brain that sits on top of the brain stem, and not much else.  Having spent a couple of years with the birth family for more fun and games, this kid has amazing survival instincts, but almost nothing in the way of a moral compass.  No empathy for others, a chair is a tool to this kid, and so are human beings.  Years of therapy and medication, and simply waiting for this kid to develop has made an adult that is ready to fight like a trapped animal, if provoked.  Had this kid been removed at the moment of birth, with no further contact or abuse, the need to be ready to fight to the death most likely wouldn't be as strong.  Instead, this kid is a diagnosed sociopath.  Medication, support, and ongoing therapy makes this kid an acceptable member of society.

The other extreme kid in my life was born extremely premature, and was taken into custody immediately.  The moral compass is there, but most of the time, it is focused completely on the kid.  Anything the kid does is for the benefit of the kid.  This kid will manipulate anyone to get the desired results, but is absolutely enraged if anyone uses the same methods on this kid.  The last therapist to kick this kid out said the kid knew and could articulate actions, consequences, empathy, sympathy, and had zero interest in reciprocity with others.  This kid is a psychopath, and is already a burden on society.  Tax payer dollars are constantly being spent to clothe, house, and feed this kid, while keeping society safe by restricting this kid's geography.

Would you share the link that they are claiming between Cluster-B personality disorders and FAS?


Sorry, I don't have something to point to, that links the two.  My kid, was and is, part of FAS studies.  The kid was diagnosed at birth, and didn't make it to safety until age 3.  But, once into foster homes where therapists could see the kid freely, concerns were noted about behaviors not routinely noted with full blown FAS.  Something was really off, so different evaluations pointed to a conflict unrelated to FAS.

The cognitive deficit that is present in so many FAS victims is present, but there was also an almost feral, fight or flight response to every scenario.  Hypervigilant doesn't begin to describe the kid's behavior.  Once the court records were released, things started clicking.

Having a neurological diagnosis and a psychological diagnosis at the same time is not an impossibility.  It just made the learning curve extremely long for this kid.  And we were along for the ride.

Sorry again, but I can't give too many specific details, because this kid has earned privacy.
 
2021-07-09 6:15:49 PM  
Have you seen "Raising Cain" with John Lithgow??
 
2021-07-09 7:23:11 PM  

labman: Both.

Oh, and clearly it's all because of video games.
/s


media-amazon.comView Full Size
 
2021-07-09 7:45:35 PM  

gregz18: labman: Both.

Oh, and clearly it's all because of video games.
/s

[media-amazon.com image 800x1117]


Robots, bats, and giant spiders.

What a combo.
 
2021-07-09 7:47:49 PM  
Nature loads the gun.  Environment pulls the trigger.
 
2021-07-10 3:13:30 AM  

cman: DerAppie: and the same input given a certain internal state always produces the same output for a person, then there can only ever be one option for every choice. Or do you not subscribe to the idea that the same input for a given state always produces the same output? i.e. there is some allowance for randomness.

If the exact circumstances were the same, I believe that the same results would happen.

But the problem with that is that nothing is ever exactly the same. I could spend 10 more seconds in the bathroom, and as a result some drunk driver who would have been nowhere near me had I not spent that extra time crashes into me and kills me. There is randomness but its in the way that everything coalesces together.


Ofcourse the state at Time A isn't the same as Time B, because there have been additional inputs. The internal state of the person, not to mention the state of the universe, has changed. Inputs work on the current state (regardless of whether free will exists or not) to create outputs.

The "exactly the same" is more of a hypothetical situation. Sitting on the toilet at 8AM on saturday the 10th of July 2021 is a discrete state that is never going to hapoen again. But if it were to happen again, whether the option exists to make different decisions is what makes the universe deterministic or not.

But if there was only ever one possibility at Time A, and then only ever one possibility at time C through Z, then we have a deterministic universe. If the universe is deterministic, then everything that happens was fated to happen as there were no alternatives. Not because of some mystic force.
 
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