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(NBC News)   As electric vehicles increase in number, availability, firefighters learn they're real problems when they catch fire   (nbcnews.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Electric car, Firefighting, Firefighter, popularity of electric vehicles, Tesla Model S, Tesla Motors, Tesla's first responder guide, Certified first responder  
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1017 clicks; posted to STEM » on 20 Jun 2021 at 9:50 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



34 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-06-20 7:16:18 PM  
It's not so much the amount of energy stored in lithium ion batteries that's the problem, it's the RATE of burning you get when one reaches thermal runaway temps. Gasoline is 33.4 KWh/gal, so a standard 13 gallon gas tank is sitting on 434.5 kWh of energy. Electric cars are more efficient, so the average Tesla battery is 85 Kwh. But when the battery catches fire, it burns faster, since the electrolyte in the battery serves as a fuel source once the fire starts. For a gasoline fire you're limited to the amount of oxygen the fire can consume.
 
2021-06-20 7:22:45 PM  
They put water on it?  Who trained these guys?  Sand is all that works, and that doesn't really stop it.  Nothing can stop it.  It needs to finish reacting.
 
2021-06-20 7:37:01 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: They put water on it?  Who trained these guys?  Sand is all that works, and that doesn't really stop it.  Nothing can stop it.  It needs to finish reacting.


Water can't put the fire out, but it can dampen the reaction so you don't reach concrete-melting temperatures. It slows the reaction down by dissipating heat.
 
2021-06-20 7:51:05 PM  
As electric vehicles increase in number, availability, firefighters learn they're real problems when they catch fire


Which is just one reason why the Las Vegas Hyperloop is just a poor and dangerously executed boondoggle. Cued up to dangers in the tunnel, but worth watching the entire video:

DEBUNKING THE VEGAS LOOP (1080p)
Youtube -RPMt_FS-s8
 
2021-06-20 10:08:40 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: They put water on it?  Who trained these guys?  Sand is all that works, and that doesn't really stop it.  Nothing can stop it.  It needs to finish reacting.


I learned in high school chemistry that water is basically fuel for a lithium fire.
 
2021-06-20 10:21:52 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: They put water on it?  Who trained these guys?  Sand is all that works, and that doesn't really stop it.  Nothing can stop it.  It needs to finish reacting.


Tesla's emergency responders guide told them to...
 
2021-06-20 10:23:39 PM  
 
2021-06-20 10:24:20 PM  
And FTFA:

On May 8, 2018, a 2014 Tesla Model S took a curve at 116 mph in a 30-mph zone in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. The car hit a wall in a residential area before it erupted in flames, then continued down the road and hit a light pole, finally stopping in a driveway. The driver and front passenger were both killed, while the rear passenger was seriously injured. "

Farking hell people, slow the fark down. And a rear passenger survived??
 
2021-06-20 10:32:20 PM  
Ban electric vehicles.

Problem solved.

Make people ride bicycles or trikes, or in horse drawn carts.  Easy least.
 
2021-06-20 10:35:27 PM  
We've been doing projects with the Tesla megapacks for utility-scale energy storage.
Tesla had a brief with video with one of the local fire departments.
Tesla essentially said, "You can spray water on it but it will only slow the process. Just let it burn itself out".
The fire department was like, "Yeah, we'll plan to spray water on it".
 
2021-06-20 10:55:10 PM  
Flames are thown but fire is caught.
You can't explain that.
 
2021-06-20 11:24:03 PM  
So do fire departments try to recoup the extra cost of putting out these fires from the drivers' insurance companies? Will we all end up paying more in car insurance?
 
2021-06-20 11:25:03 PM  
The problem is the water needs to go between the cells to keep them cool, not around the outside of the battery box.  Maybe the UL should come up with some sort of standpipe for cars.

I have a few new Lithium titanate batteries that are about the size of a very large smartphone.  The things need to be put in a case that won't let them swell according to the manufacture.  These are 12AHr, 2.4V, 15C so they charge 15x faster than Lithium and 75 times faster than NiCd or Lead acid.  If they are step charged, they are good for 100,000 cycles. I don't know how truthful that is since it would take 2.5 years to test them to that spec and they haven't been around that long.  If the specs are true the things will do 180A which is lots of current.  These new things can let out a lot of magic smoke real quick.
 
2021-06-20 11:54:04 PM  

Badmoodman: As electric vehicles increase in number, availability, firefighters learn they're real problems when they catch fire


Which is just one reason why the Las Vegas Hyperloop is just a poor and dangerously executed boondoggle. Cued up to dangers in the tunnel, but worth watching the entire video:

[iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/-RPMt_FS​-s8?autoplay=1&widget_referrer=https%3​A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&start=513&enablejs​api=1&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fark.co​m&widgetid=1]


is this the same dipshiat who has 45 videos (of 50 total) "debunking" musk with unsourced nonsense that was posted in the other thread yesterday?
 
2021-06-21 12:07:53 AM  

Raoul Eaton: I learned in high school chemistry that water is basically fuel for a lithium fire.


There's not enough free lithium in Lithium Ion batteries for the water prohibition.  Water is what you're supposed to do for Li-Ion for temperature management.
 
2021-06-21 12:10:54 AM  

New Farkin User Name: is this the same dipshiat who has 45 videos (of 50 total) "debunking" musk with unsourced nonsense that was posted in the other thread yesterday?


Yes.

Hate has quite the market on Youtube. My favorite haters to ignore are the comic haters. They have literally nothing to say, but damn, they say it a lot.
 
2021-06-21 12:11:57 AM  
It's almost the 25th anniversary of fire crews refusing to work on a Prius.
 
2021-06-21 12:41:23 AM  

DON.MAC: The problem is the water needs to go between the cells to keep them cool, not around the outside of the battery box.  Maybe the UL should come up with some sort of standpipe for cars.

I have a few new Lithium titanate batteries that are about the size of a very large smartphone.  The things need to be put in a case that won't let them swell according to the manufacture.  These are 12AHr, 2.4V, 15C so they charge 15x faster than Lithium and 75 times faster than NiCd or Lead acid.  If they are step charged, they are good for 100,000 cycles. I don't know how truthful that is since it would take 2.5 years to test them to that spec and they haven't been around that long.  If the specs are true the things will do 180A which is lots of current.  These new things can let out a lot of magic smoke real quick.


That's interesting. My understanding was that lithium titanate batteries were far more stable and less prone to degradation than other chemistries, but the trade-off was a loss of charge/discharge efficiency. If they tend to swell, that would explain the big metal case Mitsubishi iMiev cells come in... Maybe I'll rethink getting some for my house 😳

I'll do some googling.
 
2021-06-21 12:56:37 AM  

thornhill: So do fire departments try to recoup the extra cost of putting out these fires from the drivers' insurance companies? Will we all end up paying more in car insurance?


I wouldn't think it would cause rates to go up, but the responsible party's insurance will likely pay for any specialty cleanup. It's the same with gas cars. They're filled with all kinds of nasty liquids and emergency crews have to use special absorbents quite often. The driver at fault is responsible for those materials, the clay or what whatever is then used to remove the absorbents, disposal, and any other accident scene remediation.

There's an argument to be made that EV battery fires pose a new challenge for responders, but we're also accidentally on purpose forgetting that gasoline vehicles don't just oopsie boopsie like bumper cars and get dragged away.
 
2021-06-21 1:43:36 AM  
Good thing that isn't a problem with ICEs.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-21 1:49:20 AM  
Actually the YouTube version is funnier.
Top Secret! Pinto exploding scene - including "Got to hand it to the Germans" comment.
Youtube -9GGDOUDLhc
 
2021-06-21 3:21:39 AM  

Badmoodman: As electric vehicles increase in number, availability, firefighters learn they're real problems when they catch fire


Which is just one reason why the Las Vegas Hyperloop is just a poor and dangerously executed boondoggle. Cued up to dangers in the tunnel, but worth watching the entire video:

[iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/-RPMt_FS​-s8?autoplay=1&widget_referrer=https%3​A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&start=513&enablejs​api=1&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fark.co​m&widgetid=1]



It's really not worth watching the entire video.  Most of it is a bunch of math about how they can't possibly reach 4400 people per hour.  Which is great and all except that, well, they did reach those numbers like 2 months later.
Boring Co.'s transit system passes LVCVA capacity tests | Las Vegas Review-Journal (reviewjournal.com)
 
2021-06-21 6:33:25 AM  

flondrix: Good thing that isn't a problem with ICEs.
[Fark user image image 450x251]


Funny thing.  The Ford Pinto was no more dangerous than average for its class, and was significantly safer than some like the Datsun B210 and the Volkswagen Beetle.
 
2021-06-21 6:37:40 AM  

AmbassadorBooze: or in horse drawn carts


Yeah but what are you going to do when your horse catches on fire, smart guy?
 
2021-06-21 7:21:30 AM  

Short Victoria's War: AmbassadorBooze: or in horse drawn carts

Yeah but what are you going to do when your horse catches on fire, smart guy?


ehhh,,,,get out the BBQ sauce?  I mean, pork is better, but i'll pretty much eat anything.
 
2021-06-21 8:26:19 AM  
They should drag them into the open, put them in an asbestos kiddy pool with about a foot of water to keep them from damaging the surface they're on, and just let them burn out.
 
2021-06-21 8:29:17 AM  
 
2021-06-21 8:32:27 AM  
This isn't common knowledge?  I'm no firefighter, but I can figure out what happens when a huge battery pack catches on fire just from the amount of freaking out that went on over phone batteries on planes.
 
2021-06-21 8:33:42 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: They put water on it?  Who trained these guys?  Sand is all that works, and that doesn't really stop it.  Nothing can stop it.  It needs to finish reacting.


We need robots to put out these electrical fires.  Human robots.
 
2021-06-21 8:57:33 AM  
I hope mine never catches fire. If I ever get one. But I'll probably wrap it around a tree and find out.

The problem is I need to sell my current car before I can get an order an EV. The delivery times are currently 9-12 weeks. I can't be without a car for that long.
 
2021-06-21 10:03:30 AM  

dittybopper: flondrix: Good thing that isn't a problem with ICEs.
[Fark user image image 450x251]

Funny thing.  The Ford Pinto was no more dangerous than average for its class, and was significantly safer than some like the Datsun B210 and the Volkswagen Beetle.


Pssh, what's next, you going to try and convince us the Corvair may have been a reasonably safe car for its time? Get a haircut, hippie!
 
2021-06-21 11:28:56 AM  

seanpg71: Badmoodman: As electric vehicles increase in number, availability, firefighters learn they're real problems when they catch fire


Which is just one reason why the Las Vegas Hyperloop is just a poor and dangerously executed boondoggle. Cued up to dangers in the tunnel, but worth watching the entire video:

[iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/-RPMt_FS​-s8?autoplay=1&widget_referrer=https%3​A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&start=513&enablejs​api=1&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fark.co​m&widgetid=1]


It's really not worth watching the entire video.  Most of it is a bunch of math about how they can't possibly reach 4400 people per hour.  Which is great and all except that, well, they did reach those numbers like 2 months later.
Boring Co.'s transit system passes LVCVA capacity tests | Las Vegas Review-Journal (reviewjournal.com)


Did you actually read the article? Not just skim it, but actually read it?

The capacity test was only 20 minutes long. That's not enough time to see what the sustainable capacity really is. The longer the system is running, the higher the chance that minor delays cascade. Especially in systems with 62 independent cars and very little margin of error.

It also assumes full capacity for each trip, which is only 3.05 people plus a driver.  If you have a couple, a seat must go unused.  If you have a family of 4, you need two cars and two empty seats. This means the actual capacity is going to be much lower.

There was no mention about the methodology. Was this just people grabbing the next available car? Or were they actually simulating the app that assigns people to specific cars?

This is really important. As crowd size increases it will become more difficult to get to your assigned car, which may appear on either side of the station.

Given that every car was full, which is the only way you can get a 3.05 passenger average, I am very suspicious. It sounds like they were just shoving people into whatever car came first rather than using the assigned car model they promised.
 
2021-06-21 12:26:35 PM  

Grauenwolf: seanpg71: Badmoodman: As electric vehicles increase in number, availability, firefighters learn they're real problems when they catch fire


Which is just one reason why the Las Vegas Hyperloop is just a poor and dangerously executed boondoggle. Cued up to dangers in the tunnel, but worth watching the entire video:

[iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/-RPMt_FS​-s8?autoplay=1&widget_referrer=https%3​A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&start=513&enablejs​api=1&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fark.co​m&widgetid=1]


It's really not worth watching the entire video.  Most of it is a bunch of math about how they can't possibly reach 4400 people per hour.  Which is great and all except that, well, they did reach those numbers like 2 months later.
Boring Co.'s transit system passes LVCVA capacity tests | Las Vegas Review-Journal (reviewjournal.com)

Did you actually read the article? Not just skim it, but actually read it?

The capacity test was only 20 minutes long. That's not enough time to see what the sustainable capacity really is. The longer the system is running, the higher the chance that minor delays cascade. Especially in systems with 62 independent cars and very little margin of error.

It also assumes full capacity for each trip, which is only 3.05 people plus a driver.  If you have a couple, a seat must go unused.  If you have a family of 4, you need two cars and two empty seats. This means the actual capacity is going to be much lower.

There was no mention about the methodology. Was this just people grabbing the next available car? Or were they actually simulating the app that assigns people to specific cars?

This is really important. As crowd size increases it will become more difficult to get to your assigned car, which may appear on either side of the station.

Given that every car was full, which is the only way you can get a 3.05 passenger average, I am very suspicious. It sounds like they were just shoving people into whatever car came first rather than using the assigned ...



Sure - but the stupid video calculated a max of like 1488.

And yeah - that setup likely wouldn't move 4400 in sustainable real life situations.  The test was to figure out the current maximum and they hit the number they need.  If Las Vegas wanted a bigger number, they would have contracted for it.

Your concerns are valid and have been addressed, as Boring still needs to hit 90% of that number in actual operations during conventions to avoid penalty - which remains to be seen.  But removing the driver should increase capacity, and they can likely go slightly faster and jam an extra car or two in there if they need to increase the numbers a bit more.  It's certainly not some insurmountable feat as the video suggested.
 
2021-06-21 1:05:19 PM  

mehhhhhh: 26650 battery shorted, 1 cell.[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/nL2TT3da​rhY]


Autofocus, how does it work?
 
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