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(Electrek)   Tesla's "5 year lead over legacy auto" evaporated as soon as VW entered the market. Funny that   (electrek.co) divider line
    More: Obvious, Electric vehicle, AWD Pro, Electric motor, Plug-in hybrid, Trailer, big question, Four-wheel drive, better traction  
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2417 clicks; posted to Business » and STEM » on 19 Jun 2021 at 2:50 AM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-06-19 2:02:19 AM  
Counterpoint: VWs and electricity.
 
2021-06-19 2:27:15 AM  
Let's see more documentaries about the circle of death around battery manufacturing plants as they pollute the ground water.  And then documentaries about battery disposal.
EVs aren't environmentally conscious.  They just produce fewer greenhouse gases if they're powered by nuclear-generated electricity.
 
2021-06-19 3:14:04 AM  

syrynxx: Let's see more documentaries about the circle of death around battery manufacturing plants as they pollute the ground water.  And then documentaries about battery disposal.
EVs aren't environmentally conscious.  They just produce fewer greenhouse gases if they're powered by nuclear-generated electricity.


Because everyone knows nothing bad has ever happened to the ground water around places oil has been extracted.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-19 3:19:17 AM  
Speaking of the ID.4, I spent way too much time watching this video about what it is like to road trip with an EV.

Volkswagen ID.4 Mega Road Trip! Florida To Colorado With The Best Value EV On Sale
Youtube ikheO2Nb3-k


Spoiler: you get to see a lot of Walmart parking lots.

The charge times actually aren't too bad if you charge part of the way at max speeds before the vehicle throttles the charging speed, adding just enough juice to get you to the next charger, where you rinse and repeat until you get to your destination.
 
2021-06-19 3:27:10 AM  
I'm looking forward to the ID Buzz which should be available in 2023.  I'm hoping they fix the infotainment issues by then.
 
2021-06-19 3:38:21 AM  
VW built some of the parts used by Tesla.

People who've been watching the EV Market know that VW is coming to crush everyone.  Onlookers and Musk fans are less inclined to believe it.

They've heavily invested in infrastructure (with more on the way), battery tech (leapfrogged Tesla on future battery tech), and supply chain (where Tesla went for mines, VW went for the distributors).  The ID.4 may not crush, it's the tidal wave coming behind it that will.
 
2021-06-19 4:03:45 AM  
I'm glad they are pushing innovation.
 
2021-06-19 5:26:04 AM  

syrynxx: Let's see more documentaries about the circle of death around battery manufacturing plants as they pollute the ground water.  And then documentaries about battery disposal.
EVs aren't environmentally conscious.  They just produce fewer greenhouse gases if they're powered by nuclear-generated electricity.


Do you have a degree from PragerU?
 
2021-06-19 5:49:28 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: VW built some of the parts used by Tesla.

People who've been watching the EV Market know that VW is coming to crush everyone.  Onlookers and Musk fans are less inclined to believe it.

They've heavily invested in infrastructure (with more on the way), battery tech (leapfrogged Tesla on future battery tech), and supply chain (where Tesla went for mines, VW went for the distributors).  The ID.4 may not crush, it's the tidal wave coming behind it that will.


They definitely haven't leapfrogged Tesla on any kind of tech. It's safe to say having seen VW Power Day that they're not even trying. They're 5 years behind Tesla, but they don't care and they shouldn't. EVs were ready for prime time 5 years ago, and VW is better at making everything around the motors and battery pack.

Rather than pursue exotic cathode materials and new manufacturing techniques, they're building vehicles with LiFePO batteries and stuff straight from the parts bin. The only way Tesla stands a chance (even with their superior EVs) is if their 4680 cells pan out the way Elon says they will. That's a pretty damn big "if."
 
2021-06-19 5:58:19 AM  

syrynxx: Let's see more documentaries about the circle of death around battery manufacturing plants as they pollute the ground water.  And then documentaries about battery disposal.
EVs aren't environmentally conscious.  They just produce fewer greenhouse gases if they're powered by nuclear-generated electricity.


Nobody said BEVs were a panacea (except maybe Elon). They're just far, far better than the alternative.
 
2021-06-19 6:11:14 AM  
Even better, they dont have a giant ipad and still have all the mechanical controls for things like wiper blades and blinkers
 
2021-06-19 6:15:01 AM  
Here come all the car manufacturers that spent the last 5 years doing their development via Formula E racing.
 
2021-06-19 6:24:00 AM  
But can you suck your own dick in it?
 
2021-06-19 6:25:20 AM  
Tesla had 5 years to make their crap available, reliable and add after market service. It didn't happen and adults are in the room now with 80 years of experience in logistics chains, quality control and after market service.

Here you go Tesla/Elon

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-19 7:04:35 AM  
I see no mention of it being able to play Cyberpunk 2077...
 
2021-06-19 7:05:07 AM  

Likwit: DeathByGeekSquad: VW built some of the parts used by Tesla.

People who've been watching the EV Market know that VW is coming to crush everyone.  Onlookers and Musk fans are less inclined to believe it.

They've heavily invested in infrastructure (with more on the way), battery tech (leapfrogged Tesla on future battery tech), and supply chain (where Tesla went for mines, VW went for the distributors).  The ID.4 may not crush, it's the tidal wave coming behind it that will.

They definitely haven't leapfrogged Tesla on any kind of tech. It's safe to say having seen VW Power Day that they're not even trying. They're 5 years behind Tesla, but they don't care and they shouldn't. EVs were ready for prime time 5 years ago, and VW is better at making everything around the motors and battery pack.

Rather than pursue exotic cathode materials and new manufacturing techniques, they're building vehicles with LiFePO batteries and stuff straight from the parts bin. The only way Tesla stands a chance (even with their superior EVs) is if their 4680 cells pan out the way Elon says they will. That's a pretty damn big "if."


Battery: https://electrek.co/2020/12/08/tesla-​c​o-founder-jb-straubel-quantumscape-new​-fast-charging-battery-major-breakthro​ugh/

Guess who backed Quantumscape in 2018?  VW.

They've backed billions into the factories themselves as well.

VW has seventy electric production models slated for release.  The ID.3/4 and the e-Tron (Audi), alongside whatever Porsche is releasing, is merely the toes being dipped into the water.  VW will crush the EV market, because they were the major auto manufacturer who was forced to invest first - so they invested very heavily as a mea culpa for the emissions scandal.
 
2021-06-19 7:17:06 AM  
I'm glad to have a car named for our heroic struggle against the alien invasion.
 
2021-06-19 7:19:57 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: Likwit: DeathByGeekSquad: VW built some of the parts used by Tesla.

People who've been watching the EV Market know that VW is coming to crush everyone.  Onlookers and Musk fans are less inclined to believe it.

They've heavily invested in infrastructure (with more on the way), battery tech (leapfrogged Tesla on future battery tech), and supply chain (where Tesla went for mines, VW went for the distributors).  The ID.4 may not crush, it's the tidal wave coming behind it that will.

They definitely haven't leapfrogged Tesla on any kind of tech. It's safe to say having seen VW Power Day that they're not even trying. They're 5 years behind Tesla, but they don't care and they shouldn't. EVs were ready for prime time 5 years ago, and VW is better at making everything around the motors and battery pack.

Rather than pursue exotic cathode materials and new manufacturing techniques, they're building vehicles with LiFePO batteries and stuff straight from the parts bin. The only way Tesla stands a chance (even with their superior EVs) is if their 4680 cells pan out the way Elon says they will. That's a pretty damn big "if."

Battery: https://electrek.co/2020/12/08/tesla-c​o-founder-jb-straubel-quantumscape-new​-fast-charging-battery-major-breakthro​ugh/

Guess who backed Quantumscape in 2018?  VW.

They've backed billions into the factories themselves as well.

VW has seventy electric production models slated for release.  The ID.3/4 and the e-Tron (Audi), alongside whatever Porsche is releasing, is merely the toes being dipped into the water.  VW will crush the EV market, because they were the major auto manufacturer who was forced to invest first - so they invested very heavily as a mea culpa for the emissions scandal.


I agree with you that VW will win. In fact, I very literally bet on it. But from what I've heard QuantumScape doesn't think they can get actual production up and running until 2025. VW is investing in them, but it's only like $200M total, half of which they still haven't released. If QuantumScape hits their target, they'll be putting about 8% of VW's batteries.

In the mean time VW has come out and said it's LiFePO for all. That's the correct move. They're much heavier than the crazy chemistries Tesla like to use, but they're cheap, reliable, suffer little degradation, and require fewer exotic materials. They've set aside $41B for the manufacture of these packs. Solid state batteries are a call option.
 
2021-06-19 7:20:33 AM  

Likwit: DeathByGeekSquad: VW built some of the parts used by Tesla.

People who've been watching the EV Market know that VW is coming to crush everyone.  Onlookers and Musk fans are less inclined to believe it.

They've heavily invested in infrastructure (with more on the way), battery tech (leapfrogged Tesla on future battery tech), and supply chain (where Tesla went for mines, VW went for the distributors).  The ID.4 may not crush, it's the tidal wave coming behind it that will.

They definitely haven't leapfrogged Tesla on any kind of tech. It's safe to say having seen VW Power Day that they're not even trying. They're 5 years behind Tesla, but they don't care and they shouldn't. EVs were ready for prime time 5 years ago, and VW is better at making everything around the motors and battery pack.

Rather than pursue exotic cathode materials and new manufacturing techniques, they're building vehicles with LiFePO batteries and stuff straight from the parts bin. The only way Tesla stands a chance (even with their superior EVs) is if their 4680 cells pan out the way Elon says they will. That's a pretty damn big "if."


VW may be 5 years behind in tech but they are 20 years ahead of Tesla on mass manufacturing ability. The defect rates on Tesla's would get executives sacked at VAG. Tesla fans won't care about these problems, most people will care and Tesla will get a reputation that makes Land Rover or Yugo seem tame.
 
2021-06-19 7:22:12 AM  
Of course, in 10 years it'll turn out the VW cars aren't actually electric, the battery cells are actually just 36 trained hamsters running on little wheels.
 
2021-06-19 7:23:35 AM  
How long before it is revealed that VW electric cars are secretly powered by a concealed diesel motor?
 
2021-06-19 7:25:40 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Speaking of the ID.4, I spent way too much time watching this video about what it is like to road trip with an EV.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/ikheO2Nb​3-k]

Spoiler: you get to see a lot of Walmart parking lots.

The charge times actually aren't too bad if you charge part of the way at max speeds before the vehicle throttles the charging speed, adding just enough juice to get you to the next charger, where you rinse and repeat until you get to your destination.


Thanks for posting that. It was a real eye-opener. Wow. Watched it all the way through to soak in all the crunchy goodness.

When he gets to the end and describes how his dad was trying to use the apps and chargers, it really brought home to me that battery vehicles require more than a manual.

Well, anyone who watches the video will know what I am talking about. Cheers.
 
2021-06-19 7:38:46 AM  
A white steering wheel? That design alone makes me question how much else in this vehicle is stupid.
 
2021-06-19 7:40:42 AM  

lifeslammer: Even better, they dont have a giant ipad and still have all the mechanical controls for things like wiper blades and blinkers


This is the number 1 reason why the Mrs and I will never consider a Tesla or any other manufacturer that insists on using a chintzy tablet to control all vehicle functions.
 
2021-06-19 7:44:10 AM  

lifeslammer: Even better, they dont have a giant ipad and still have all the mechanical controls for things like wiper blades and blinkers


This is the number 1 reason why the Mrs and I will never consider a Tesla or any other manufacturer that insists on using a chintzy tablet to control all vehicle functions and display information. It feels like an incredibly cheap and lazy way to design an interior.
 
2021-06-19 7:51:08 AM  

Stile4aly: I'm looking forward to the ID Buzz which should be available in 2023.  I'm hoping they fix the infotainment issues by then.


If it has a battery back up feature like the F-150, I will be first in line. Any 3 row vehicle that also takes the place of $20k of powerwalls is going straight to the top of my list for my next car.
 
hej
2021-06-19 7:57:00 AM  
Is there actually any comparison to be made to Tesla here besides "electric vehicle", or is this just Fark's weekly Tesla shiat thread?
 
2021-06-19 8:00:14 AM  

hej: Is there actually any comparison to be made to Tesla here besides "electric vehicle", or is this just Fark's weekly Tesla shiat thread?


It's actually been surprisingly good so far 👍
 
2021-06-19 8:11:32 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Speaking of the ID.4, I spent way too much time watching this video about what it is like to road trip with an EV.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/ikheO2Nb​3-k]

Spoiler: you get to see a lot of Walmart parking lots.

The charge times actually aren't too bad if you charge part of the way at max speeds before the vehicle throttles the charging speed, adding just enough juice to get you to the next charger, where you rinse and repeat until you get to your destination.


A friend did an inter-city road trip in his new electric car to see what it would be like. It would have been faster to have the vehicle towed.
 
2021-06-19 8:22:55 AM  

2fardownthread: Mad_Radhu: Speaking of the ID.4, I spent way too much time watching this video about what it is like to road trip with an EV.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/ikheO2Nb​3-k]

Spoiler: you get to see a lot of Walmart parking lots.

The charge times actually aren't too bad if you charge part of the way at max speeds before the vehicle throttles the charging speed, adding just enough juice to get you to the next charger, where you rinse and repeat until you get to your destination.

Thanks for posting that. It was a real eye-opener. Wow. Watched it all the way through to soak in all the crunchy goodness.

When he gets to the end and describes how his dad was trying to use the apps and chargers, it really brought home to me that battery vehicles require more than a manual.

Well, anyone who watches the video will know what I am talking about. Cheers.


I have a Chevy Bolt, same story. Based on my experience, I would say there is about a 25 minute penalty over ICE for every 100 miles on long trips. I have seen a lot of Walmarts but also some cool stuff near the chargers when not at a Walmart.
 
2021-06-19 8:45:30 AM  
Thanks for this video, subby.
 
2021-06-19 9:48:02 AM  

surrounded by assholes: lifeslammer: Even better, they dont have a giant ipad and still have all the mechanical controls for things like wiper blades and blinkers

This is the number 1 reason why the Mrs and I will never consider a Tesla or any other manufacturer that insists on using a chintzy tablet to control all vehicle functions and display information. It feels like an incredibly cheap and lazy way to design an interior.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-19 10:08:21 AM  
Yup, 9 years later and VW is almost ready to release a car that'll almost match Tesla's specs from 9 years ago but be cheaper.

By this logic, now is an excellent time to purchase a PS3.
 
2021-06-19 10:12:39 AM  

Badmoodman: A white steering wheel? That design alone makes me question how much else in this vehicle is stupid.


That's only on the First Edition models. The regular ones have a normal black colored interior.
 
2021-06-19 10:13:06 AM  

Badmoodman: A white steering wheel? That design alone makes me question how much else in this vehicle is stupid.


it might look dumb, but I'd take it so I can actually drive my car without burning myself if I left it in the sunlight for half the year
 
2021-06-19 10:20:35 AM  

margarito bandito: 2fardownthread: Mad_Radhu: Speaking of the ID.4, I spent way too much time watching this video about what it is like to road trip with an EV.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/ikheO2Nb​3-k]

Spoiler: you get to see a lot of Walmart parking lots.

The charge times actually aren't too bad if you charge part of the way at max speeds before the vehicle throttles the charging speed, adding just enough juice to get you to the next charger, where you rinse and repeat until you get to your destination.

Thanks for posting that. It was a real eye-opener. Wow. Watched it all the way through to soak in all the crunchy goodness.

When he gets to the end and describes how his dad was trying to use the apps and chargers, it really brought home to me that battery vehicles require more than a manual.

Well, anyone who watches the video will know what I am talking about. Cheers.

I have a Chevy Bolt, same story. Based on my experience, I would say there is about a 25 minute penalty over ICE for every 100 miles on long trips. I have seen a lot of Walmarts but also some cool stuff near the chargers when not at a Walmart.


The Bolt only has 50 kW DC Fast Charging vs. the 125 kW in the ID.4, so the Bolt is going to be significantly slower on road trips. Newer vehicles are going to be even faster, with up to 350 kW being available on the Electrify America chargers along interstate routes, so over time that time penalty will decrease a bit more.
 
2021-06-19 10:23:18 AM  

syrynxx: Let's see more documentaries about the circle of death around battery manufacturing plants as they pollute the ground water.  And then documentaries about battery disposal.
EVs aren't environmentally conscious.  They just produce fewer greenhouse gases if they're powered by nuclear-generated electricity.


FTFY.

EVs are better for the environment regardless of what is used to generate the electricity they use (yes, even coal.)
 
hej
2021-06-19 10:26:59 AM  

Likwit: hej: Is there actually any comparison to be made to Tesla here besides "electric vehicle", or is this just Fark's weekly Tesla shiat thread?

It's actually been surprisingly good so far 👍


The car, or this thread?
 
2021-06-19 10:36:35 AM  

2fardownthread: Mad_Radhu: Speaking of the ID.4, I spent way too much time watching this video about what it is like to road trip with an EV.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/ikheO2Nb​3-k]

Spoiler: you get to see a lot of Walmart parking lots.

The charge times actually aren't too bad if you charge part of the way at max speeds before the vehicle throttles the charging speed, adding just enough juice to get you to the next charger, where you rinse and repeat until you get to your destination.

Thanks for posting that. It was a real eye-opener. Wow. Watched it all the way through to soak in all the crunchy goodness.

When he gets to the end and describes how his dad was trying to use the apps and chargers, it really brought home to me that battery vehicles require more than a manual.

Well, anyone who watches the video will know what I am talking about. Cheers.


It's still a early days for VW, though. As the charging network and the vehicles get updated and refined, you'll see Plug and Charge become available for the ID.4 so charging becomes a more Tesla-like experience where you pull up, plug in, and the car handles all of the billing automatically.

I was pleasantly surprised by how smoothly his Florida to Colorado road trip went. He drove the vehicle right to the edge of its charge with short stops to just charge it up enough to get to the next charger, and didn't have any major issues like pulling into a Walmart and finding the chargers offline with 2% charge in the vehicle. Hell, if I'd been making the same road trip it would probably have been slower, because I would have sat down in the Steak and Shake for a proper meal before moving on instead of eating in the vehicle.

Plus the trip was actually POSSIBLE with the ID.4, unlike with the Toyota Mirai which can't be driven outside of certain parts of California where hydrogen stations exist.
 
2021-06-19 10:41:40 AM  
After owning an Audi, which required the removal of its front to replace a pump, I'm sure the VW electrics will require uncoupling and removal of the cabin to get to the batteries. Wonderful cars. Great engineering. Horrible repairs.
 
2021-06-19 10:44:57 AM  

lifeslammer: Even better, they dont have a giant ipad and still have all the mechanical controls for things like wiper blades and blinkers


That was my first thought.  My friend has a tesla, and while it was fun to drive, all the secondary controls were annoying as hell.

syrynxx: Let's see more documentaries about the circle of death around battery manufacturing plants as they pollute the ground water.  And then documentaries about battery disposal.
EVs aren't environmentally conscious.  They just produce fewer greenhouse gases if they're powered by nuclear-generated electricity.


That's simply not true.  Electric engines are way more efficient.  You can get your energy from the dirtiest of coal plants and your carbon footprint is still only around 1/4 that of an ice engine.  Lithium is recyclable.  Battery disposal and recycling have a long way to go, but the industry is only a decade old.  It will improve.  Compared to oil extraction, its still way cleaner.
 
2021-06-19 11:02:23 AM  
In what way, trollmitter?  Yet another electic luxury car that's still more expensive than the cheapest Tesla isn't exactly rocking anyone's world.

Although i's a half-decent price for an SUV, which are all absurdly overpriced even for ICE ones.

/I hate SUVs
//No ICE companies give a rat's ass about electric cars.  They do it to throw a bone to those customers but if you think any ICE companies care, at all, about their electric cars you're sorely mistaken.  Unless another startup electric car company can get a foothold in the market (and there's only one that I'm aware of and they're about to go bankrupt), it's Tesla or bust, whether any of us like it or not.
 
2021-06-19 11:04:26 AM  

gaslight: Mad_Radhu: Speaking of the ID.4, I spent way too much time watching this video about what it is like to road trip with an EV.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/ikheO2Nb​3-k]

Spoiler: you get to see a lot of Walmart parking lots.

The charge times actually aren't too bad if you charge part of the way at max speeds before the vehicle throttles the charging speed, adding just enough juice to get you to the next charger, where you rinse and repeat until you get to your destination.

A friend did an inter-city road trip in his new electric car to see what it would be like. It would have been faster to have the vehicle towed.


My buddy has a Taycan, which I have not yet been in but is apparently a fantastic car for everything but road trips....BUT, in addition the  general range and charging issues, he often finds that he has to wait or find other charging stations because assholes use them as parking spots.  That's not the fault of his car, but I guess it's a reality right now for people traveling with electric cars.
 
2021-06-19 11:08:39 AM  
I suppose we'll soon find out that they're not actually electric, but are burning diesel with no emissions control.
 
2021-06-19 11:08:51 AM  

Likwit: syrynxx: Let's see more documentaries about the circle of death around battery manufacturing plants as they pollute the ground water.  And then documentaries about battery disposal.
EVs aren't environmentally conscious.  They just produce fewer greenhouse gases if they're powered by nuclear-generated electricity.

Nobody said BEVs were a panacea (except maybe Elon). They're just far, far better than the alternative.


Also once electric has enough market share we can incrementally improve everything. It doesn't have to leap like Athena fully clad from Zeus's skull.

Or we can just stay 100% ICE forever.
 
2021-06-19 11:10:31 AM  

Interceptor1: Yup, 9 years later and VW is almost ready to release a car that'll almost match Tesla's specs from 9 years ago but be cheaper.

By this logic, now is an excellent time to purchase a PS3.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-19 11:16:05 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Badmoodman: A white steering wheel? That design alone makes me question how much else in this vehicle is stupid.

That's only on the First Edition models. The regular ones have a normal black colored interior.



In get that it's a limited edition but that white wheel is on your car for good. It will get dirty and dark soon enough.
 
2021-06-19 11:31:36 AM  

jake3988: In what way, trollmitter?  Yet another electic luxury car that's still more expensive than the cheapest Tesla isn't exactly rocking anyone's world.

Although i's a half-decent price for an SUV, which are all absurdly overpriced even for ICE ones.

/I hate SUVs
//No ICE companies give a rat's ass about electric cars.  They do it to throw a bone to those customers but if you think any ICE companies care, at all, about their electric cars you're sorely mistaken.  Unless another startup electric car company can get a foothold in the market (and there's only one that I'm aware of and they're about to go bankrupt), it's Tesla or bust, whether any of us like it or not.


this.. is certainly a thing that was posted
 
2021-06-19 11:35:14 AM  

jake3988: In what way, trollmitter?  Yet another electic luxury car that's still more expensive than the cheapest Tesla isn't exactly rocking anyone's world.

Although i's a half-decent price for an SUV, which are all absurdly overpriced even for ICE ones.

/I hate SUVs
//No ICE companies give a rat's ass about electric cars.  They do it to throw a bone to those customers but if you think any ICE companies care, at all, about their electric cars you're sorely mistaken.  Unless another startup electric car company can get a foothold in the market (and there's only one that I'm aware of and they're about to go bankrupt), it's Tesla or bust, whether any of us like it or not.



Umm.... This is completely inaccurate...
 
2021-06-19 11:37:58 AM  

Badmoodman: Mad_Radhu: Badmoodman: A white steering wheel? That design alone makes me question how much else in this vehicle is stupid.

That's only on the First Edition models. The regular ones have a normal black colored interior.


In get that it's a limited edition but that white wheel is on your car for good. It will get dirty and dark soon enough.


Oh I agree it is a terrible idea. I'm just saying that fortunately the vast majority of ID.4 owners will get a normal non-white steering wheel, so it is only an issue for the people who just had to buy the first ones off the production line (which is also just asking for problems).

I can only assume that the First Edition owners have the Bad Idea Bears as their spirit animals.
 
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