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(The Hollywood Reporter)   One of the best Star Trek: TNG 2-part episodes Redemption I and II almost never happened because Gene Roddenberry believed TNG was about Picard and didn't see Worf as a primary character   (hollywoodreporter.com) divider line
    More: Misc, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, writer Ronald D. Moore, series' 100th episode, Star Trek, Michael Dorn, human Sela, Executive Producer Rick Berman  
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813 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 18 Jun 2021 at 4:10 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



40 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-06-18 4:09:23 AM  
In a way TNG is frequently about Worf... failing. He stood for honor, "security," and use of force--things this country is obsessed with--and he's frequently wrong and/or gets his ass kicked immediately, while the rationality, wit, daringness, and diplomacy represented by Picard, Riker, and Data almost always wins out as the eventual solution.
 
2021-06-18 4:31:21 AM  

koder: In a way TNG is frequently about Worf... failing.


He didn't always fail..

thumbs.gfycat.comView Full Size
 
2021-06-18 4:36:06 AM  
This sort of thing happens all the time. A creative person comes up with a fresh and interesting idea that audiences will love only to have it immediately crushed by managers on the grounds that it doesn't fit into their tiny, rigid worldview. Sometimes I'm amazed that anything worthwhile ever gets made.
 
2021-06-18 5:07:17 AM  
Well he does have a point.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-18 5:37:03 AM  
Weird that he would be pushing back against the script.
Why make an ensemble show, without showcasing all of the characters/talent?
/but probably that's during the phase where Roddenberry was beginning to
getting more and more sidelined.
 
2021-06-18 5:56:02 AM  
Until Martok came along I was just about done with the dysfunctional Klingon bullshiat.
 
2021-06-18 6:40:20 AM  
Moore was generally more right than Roddenberry, who was stuck in his own head, and stuck in the past.

Not that certain aspects of the original show won't always surpass all that came after, but Roddenberry himself frequently didn't accurately understand why those things were so great (and definitely not how to adjust them for a different decade).
 
2021-06-18 6:54:13 AM  

Kris_Romm: Roddenberry himself frequently didn't accurately understand why those things were so great


Roddenberry was a mediocre amateur writer who got really, really lucky, and then even luckier when he inexpertly messed around with what he'd created and yet failed to destroy it.
 
2021-06-18 7:01:19 AM  
As if we needed more proof that Moore is without honor.
 
2021-06-18 7:47:28 AM  
It's almost as if the creator of a franchise doesn't always understand what they created, Mr Lucas.
 
2021-06-18 7:48:41 AM  

koder: In a way TNG is frequently about Worf... failing. He stood for honor, "security," and use of force--things this country is obsessed with--and he's frequently wrong and/or gets his ass kicked immediately, while the rationality, wit, daringness, and diplomacy represented by Picard, Riker, and Data almost always wins out as the eventual solution.


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph​p​/Main/TheWorfEffect
 
2021-06-18 8:15:25 AM  
Oh, man, I hated all the Klingon stuff on TNG. Boring as hell, crappy world-building, and well, focused on Worf, who would have been the least interesting character in the show if not for the fact that you had Troi squandering a promising premise and Crusher being incredibly under-written.
 
2021-06-18 8:16:53 AM  

Bslim: Until Martok came along I was just about done with the dysfunctional Klingon bullshiat.


Didn't they explain why the Empire was so dysfunctional in a throw away line in "Trials and Tribble-ations"?  Something about the Klingon intel service having control over the military during Kirk's era?

OK, yes in TOS it was a clever way for the writers to cover up special effects budget issues with Romulans using Klingon style ships while simultaneously addressing America's gr​owing paranoia about the Soviets and the Chinese forming a power bloc in the 1960s.  But still, kudos to Ron Moore for building on that nugget.
 
2021-06-18 9:00:29 AM  
Yet another example of Roddenberry being the second worst producer of Star Trek.

Gene tried to stop the Borg from being added to the show. He hated the whole concept of Deep Space Nine because it wasn't the kum-bay-ya universe he wanted to depict.

Sometimes I wonder if he even came up with the idea of Star Trek on his own and just stole the whole thing from some fanboy in the early 60's.
 
2021-06-18 9:04:59 AM  

Unsung_Hero: Kris_Romm: Roddenberry himself frequently didn't accurately understand why those things were so great

Roddenberry was a mediocre amateur writer who got really, really lucky, and then even luckier when he inexpertly messed around with what he'd created and yet failed to destroy it.


What do you expect from a guy who's claim to fame before Star Trek was that he helped in the LAPD's Bullsh*t Propaganda Spin Campaign after the Watts Riots. He really laid it on thick that time.
 
2021-06-18 9:17:58 AM  

AAAAGGGGHHHH: Yet another example of Roddenberry being the second worst producer of Star Trek.

Gene tried to stop the Borg from being added to the show. He hated the whole concept of Deep Space Nine because it wasn't the kum-bay-ya universe he wanted to depict.

Sometimes I wonder if he even came up with the idea of Star Trek on his own and just stole the whole thing from some fanboy in the early 60's.


Roddenberry was full on sucking his own dick by the late 70s.  Look at The Motion Picture for Rodeenberry's "vision"
 
2021-06-18 11:42:56 AM  

bamph: Roddenberry was full on sucking his own dick by the late 70s. Look at The Motion Picture for Rodeenberry's "vision"


TMP would have made pretty great TV episode. Maybe even a 2-parter -- that would about 90+ minutes of story after commercials, right? Which I think was the basis for the movie script. It shows.
 
2021-06-18 12:20:48 PM  

JammerJim: bamph: Roddenberry was full on sucking his own dick by the late 70s. Look at The Motion Picture for Rodeenberry's "vision"

TMP would have made pretty great TV episode. Maybe even a 2-parter -- that would about 90+ minutes of story after commercials, right? Which I think was the basis for the movie script. It shows.


It was.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S​tar_Tre​k:_Phase_II
 
2021-06-18 1:07:42 PM  

taliesinwi: JammerJim: bamph: Roddenberry was full on sucking his own dick by the late 70s. Look at The Motion Picture for Rodeenberry's "vision"

TMP would have made pretty great TV episode. Maybe even a 2-parter -- that would about 90+ minutes of story after commercials, right? Which I think was the basis for the movie script. It shows.

It was.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St​ar_Trek:_Phase_II


Now that I've learned about the whole PII/TMP/Early TNG thing it sort of makes it really obvious how much Troi and Riker were based on Ilia and Decker. It makes them kinda retroactively stick out like a sore thumb
 
2021-06-18 1:07:57 PM  
Worf is easily one of my favorite characters in TNG, and yet I hate all the 2 parters centered on Worf and Klingons.

Even worse is the one where Worf finds the colony of Klingons that some Romulan abducted from Khitomer and teaches their half-klingon, half-romulan kids how to be black.
 
2021-06-18 1:31:27 PM  

bamph: AAAAGGGGHHHH: Yet another example of Roddenberry being the second worst producer of Star Trek.

Gene tried to stop the Borg from being added to the show. He hated the whole concept of Deep Space Nine because it wasn't the kum-bay-ya universe he wanted to depict.

Sometimes I wonder if he even came up with the idea of Star Trek on his own and just stole the whole thing from some fanboy in the early 60's.

Roddenberry was full on sucking his own dick by the late 70s.  Look at The Motion Picture for Rodeenberry's "vision"


It's worse than that. The ORIGINAL Roddenberry plot was even sh*ttier. It took a team of other writers to trashcan Gene's guaranteed-to-bomb script and come up with something only a little less sh*tty.
 
2021-06-18 1:39:09 PM  
The ironic thing was that by the late 60's, Gene was in dire straights. He never struck gold after Trek was cancelled, none of his other show ideas were bought, he was totally out of new ideas, and was going broke fast. Even Shatner was living out of his truck around that time. God only knows what it was like for the 2nd tier actors like Keonig and Nichols at the time.

Isaac Asimov took pity on the poor guy and with the help of Forey Ackerman, helped Gene find a way to market Trek into a fandom. It helped pay some of the bills until Star Wars happened and Paramount was desperate to find something right now to cash in on the SF surge.

1970s The First STAR TREK Convention Raw Footage
Youtube ueepRKpFS1E
 
2021-06-18 1:56:39 PM  

taliesinwi: JammerJim: bamph: Roddenberry was full on sucking his own dick by the late 70s. Look at The Motion Picture for Rodeenberry's "vision"

TMP would have made pretty great TV episode. Maybe even a 2-parter -- that would about 90+ minutes of story after commercials, right? Which I think was the basis for the movie script. It shows.

It was.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St​ar_Trek:_Phase_II


It was. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/T​he_Changeling_(episode)
 
2021-06-18 1:59:10 PM  
Through most of the early seasons of TNG, Worf was mostly a punchline about how "Klingons do not X".

The character really didn't come into his own until DS9, although he had started to be a bit more three dimensional before that.

One of my favorite Worf gags was on DS9 when Keiko was expecting her second baby and Worf suddenly feels the need to be far, far, away during the blessed event.
 
2021-06-18 2:06:50 PM  

BullBearMS: Worf was mostly a punchline about how "Klingons do not X".



If you haven't seen them yet, Youtube channel "Ryan's Edits" has many ST videos, and one of them is a compilation of all the "Klingons do nots".

/At work, or I'd link directly.
//Star Trek InTakes are the best, though.
 
2021-06-18 2:31:57 PM  

AAAAGGGGHHHH: The ironic thing was that by the late 60's, Gene was in dire straights. He never struck gold after Trek was cancelled, none of his other show ideas were bought, he was totally out of new ideas, and was going broke fast. Even Shatner was living out of his truck around that time. God only knows what it was like for the 2nd tier actors like Keonig and Nichols at the time.

Isaac Asimov took pity on the poor guy and with the help of Forey Ackerman, helped Gene find a way to market Trek into a fandom. It helped pay some of the bills until Star Wars happened and Paramount was desperate to find something right now to cash in on the SF surge.

[iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/ueepRKpF​S1E?autoplay=1&widget_referrer=https%3​A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&start=0&enablejsap​i=1&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&​widgetid=1]


Frankly surprising number of women there.
 
2021-06-18 2:52:23 PM  
Ummm I prefer the REAL Klingons from Star Trek: Discovery, where the Klingons are hairless blue domeheads with extreme head ridges who rape and eat humans and have multiple dongs.
 
2021-06-18 3:06:50 PM  
I recently saw Chaos on the Bridge, a documentary about the behind schedule he scenes chaos making the first two seasons of TNG and I can't recommend it enough!

Chaos On The Bridge: Touble in Year One
Youtube 6vpGR3V9lnQ

Come for Shatner narration- stay for the behind the scenes drama!
 
2021-06-18 3:25:18 PM  

Rev. Skarekroe: AAAAGGGGHHHH: The ironic thing was that by the late 60's, Gene was in dire straights. He never struck gold after Trek was cancelled, none of his other show ideas were bought, he was totally out of new ideas, and was going broke fast. Even Shatner was living out of his truck around that time. God only knows what it was like for the 2nd tier actors like Keonig and Nichols at the time.

Isaac Asimov took pity on the poor guy and with the help of Forey Ackerman, helped Gene find a way to market Trek into a fandom. It helped pay some of the bills until Star Wars happened and Paramount was desperate to find something right now to cash in on the SF surge.

[iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/ueepRKpF​S1E?autoplay=1&widget_referrer=https%3​A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&start=0&enablejsap​i=1&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&​widgetid=1]

Frankly surprising number of women there.


images.fineartamerica.comView Full Size
 
2021-06-18 3:42:54 PM  

Rev. Skarekroe: AAAAGGGGHHHH: The ironic thing was that by the late 60's, Gene was in dire straights. He never struck gold after Trek was cancelled, none of his other show ideas were bought, he was totally out of new ideas, and was going broke fast. Even Shatner was living out of his truck around that time. God only knows what it was like for the 2nd tier actors like Keonig and Nichols at the time.

Isaac Asimov took pity on the poor guy and with the help of Forey Ackerman, helped Gene find a way to market Trek into a fandom. It helped pay some of the bills until Star Wars happened and Paramount was desperate to find something right now to cash in on the SF surge.

[iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/ueepRKpF​S1E?autoplay=1&widget_referrer=https%3​A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&start=0&enablejsap​i=1&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&​widgetid=1]

Frankly surprising number of women there.


Doesn't surprise me at all.  Fan cons are full of what I'd 'nonthreatening people'.  A few socially awkward ones, but nothing women would feel particularly intimidating.

The one I used to go to was pretty close to 50/50.
 
2021-06-18 4:14:49 PM  

Rev. Skarekroe: Frankly surprising number of women there.


They're the slashfic writers.
 
2021-06-18 4:32:57 PM  

JammerJim: Rev. Skarekroe: Frankly surprising number of women there.

They're the slashfic writers.


My sister is an up and coming romance author and let me assure you that you are correct.
 
2021-06-18 4:59:59 PM  

t3knomanser: taliesinwi: JammerJim: bamph: Roddenberry was full on sucking his own dick by the late 70s. Look at The Motion Picture for Rodeenberry's "vision"

TMP would have made pretty great TV episode. Maybe even a 2-parter -- that would about 90+ minutes of story after commercials, right? Which I think was the basis for the movie script. It shows.

It was.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St​ar_Trek:_Phase_II

It was. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/T​he_Changeling_(episode)


Huh?  TMP (The Motion Picture) was an adaptation of the pilot script of Start Trek: Phase II.  That's what I was referencing.
 
2021-06-18 5:50:02 PM  

taliesinwi: Huh? TMP (The Motion Picture) was an adaptation of the pilot script of Start Trek: Phase II. That's what I was referencing.


But that itself was basically a rehash of The Changeling. Human space probe is found by aliens, upgraded and made intelligent, returns wreaking a trail of destruction.
 
2021-06-18 8:11:16 PM  

t3knomanser: Oh, man, I hated all the Klingon stuff on TNG


The early stuff was bad, but everyone is in general agreement that the first couple of TNG seasons were pretty bad.

The mid-series stuff was solid - Worf's discommendation (sp?), his relationship with K'Ehleyr, the early stages of setting up Gowron into power....all that proved fruitful in long-term storytelling.  Ronald Moore deserves his kudos there.  Worf's later "spiritual quests" and all the Kahless stuff got tedious pretty fast.

By the time we get to DS9's "The Way of The Warrior," the Klingon thing was really being milked for ratings, but it was still entertaining in spite of being well-worn.  The DS9 ep "Soldiers of the Empire" was the death knell, imo.

From a writing perspective, you have to respect the Klingons though.  Equal parts comic relief and kickass antagonists, depending on the situation.  One the things I didn't enjoy about the Klingon reboot in Discovery was how terribly solemn everything became.
 
2021-06-18 9:53:58 PM  

frestcrallen: his relationship with K'Ehleyr


I'll give you that one, but I never really cared for the Gowron stuff.
 
2021-06-19 1:50:37 AM  

Embden.Meyerhof: BullBearMS: Worf was mostly a punchline about how "Klingons do not X".


If you haven't seen them yet, Youtube channel "Ryan's Edits" has many ST videos, and one of them is a compilation of all the "Klingons do nots".

/At work, or I'd link directly.
//Star Trek InTakes are the best, though.


Phenomena
Youtube SlQQ4xf9o88
 
2021-06-19 6:40:24 AM  

t3knomanser: frestcrallen: his relationship with K'Ehleyr

I'll give you that one, but I never really cared for the Gowron stuff.


How can you not like 'crazy eyes' Robert O'Reilly?

Still surprised me when I found out he played one of the heavies in 'The Mask' movie.
 
2021-06-19 8:14:12 AM  

AurizenDarkstar: How can you not like 'crazy eyes' Robert O'Reilly?


The actor was great! The plotting and world-building was dreary and dull, and honestly, made the Klingons increasingly less interesting as a society.
 
2021-06-19 1:10:57 PM  
A large part of Rodenberry's problem was that he was stuck in the '50's-70's-ish conception of what a show should be.  Painting with a broad brush, non-humans are for comic relief or "We need to be nice to the other." stories, moralization applied with a sledgehammer. etc.  And for that he was competent.  But after ToS, what people wanted from a show was changing like wildfire by entertainment industry standards, and he could in no way keep up.  He kept trying to apply would would have made sense in 1965 or something. - with a veneer of modern social thought yes - but the tropes and thinking behind the ideas were old school.  Sometimes that worked - but a lot of the time it didn't, and as time wore on and people's ideas of what was good changed even more it just got worse.  He needed to stay the idea guy but keep his hands off the nuts and bolts, and he wasn't constitutionally capable of backing off like that I think.  Which I can understand, it's pretty hard to admit you can't so much hack working on what's become your baby over the years anymore - but it wasn't helping.
 
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