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(YouTube)   Toyota developing hydrogen engine to save us from global warming, Elon Musk   (youtube.com) divider line
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296 clicks; posted to STEM » on 16 Jun 2021 at 4:15 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-06-16 1:37:21 PM  
Well, what's easier to seal in than Hydrogen?

It's not like it's a colorless, odorless, flammable gas, after all.
 
2021-06-16 1:39:21 PM  
Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.
 
2021-06-16 2:26:21 PM  

optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.


with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.
 
2021-06-16 3:50:05 PM  
I'm sort of proud of Toyota for holding the line, but it also feels like a Hail Mary pass after 10-15 years of sitting around and slowly losing almost all of their green cred.

The tanks used to scare me, but they've been pretty well tested and proven. They just take up a lot of space and...obviously....refilling is a biatch for 99% of America. That alone is why EVs will probably eclipse hydrogen quickly.
 
2021-06-16 4:17:13 PM  
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2021-06-16 4:26:54 PM  
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2021-06-16 4:28:18 PM  
Never gonna happen. The infrastructure is just too expensive and the process of making hydrogen is too inefficient.
 
2021-06-16 4:30:48 PM  

arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.


At consumer level pressures, your fuel tank would store 1/3 of the energy as gasoline/diesel.  To maintain usual vehicle ranges, you'll need a much larger tank.

It also means rolling out an entire new system of fueling that petrol and electric cars can't utilize.

If you're going to revamp the whole of transit, it would be better to expand public transport and move people out of cars all together.
 
2021-06-16 4:31:18 PM  

DuneClimber: [Fark user image 735x601]


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2021-06-16 4:35:48 PM  

arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.


Like replacing the fuel tanks, the engine, and exhaust. No biggie.
 
2021-06-16 4:38:00 PM  

DuneClimber: [Fark user image image 735x601]


Hydrogen doesn't burn like that, that was the highly flammable skin of the Hindenburg going up large like.
 
2021-06-16 4:41:27 PM  
Interesting video, but hydrogen engines are nothing new. The main technical issue with them, as the video covered quite well, is storage. At the moment we simply don't have a space-efficient way to store significant amounts of hydrogen, at least not one that dovetails well with conventional automobile designs. There's a reason that the hydrogen fuel tank used on the Space Shuttle dwarfed the shuttle itself.

There's also the problem of how to produce the hydrogen, but that's not so much a problem with the engines themselves. Until we solve the issue of how to store large quantities of hydrogen at low pressures, and do so while fitting inside the proverbial breadbox, hydrogen engines will remain highly unlikely to become mainstream.
 
2021-06-16 4:41:45 PM  
A Hydrogen car is just an EV that stores the energy in a tank and fuel cell. To fuel it you take Electricity and split water losing 40% of the energy. Then somehow miraculously store the hydrogen safely until time to burn it in a fuel cell losing another 20% of the energy.

A Battery EV uses electricity directly and loses only about 2% in the process. Running a hydrogen car takes three times as much electricity as a battery EV. Never gonna happen
 
2021-06-16 4:48:26 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-16 4:53:40 PM  
Let's see how it is going for current owners:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features​/​a36003212/hydrogen-mirai-california-sh​ortage/

"That's where Kirk Nason made his mistake. In 2018, the retired Microsoft engineer took delivery of a Mirai for his daughter, whose commute took her up and down Interstate 605. There aren't any hydrogen stations off that regularly congested freeway, but several were due to open; until they did, Nason figured she could refill the Mirai somewhere nearby. At least once she had to have it towed after running out of fuel while looking for more. There are no battery jumps, no five-gallon gas cans delivered by AAA. When you're out, you're out.

It became too much, Nason says, and his daughter bought a gasoline-powered SUV. Her Mirai took up residence in his garage, awaiting the end of its $543-per-month lease in June so he can return it to Toyota. "I can't wait to get out of this nightmare," Nason says. He has tried to give it back early, and neither Toyota nor his dealership is interested."

Compared to the electric vehicle infrastructure that is getting built out better and better with each passing day, fueling up a hydrogen vehicle is harder than it should be. Also, I'm sure the costs to install even a DC fast charging station are way less than the cost to build a hydrogen fueling station, so you'll see the EV footprint expand even faster. Plus a lot of EV drivers can just top off at home in genie garage, so many only need to use charging stations when they are on road trips.
 
2021-06-16 4:57:29 PM  
Hydrogen as a road fuel has many problems, starting with the grossly inefficient methods for creating it, the difficulties transporting it, storing it, and your choices are : high pressure or cryogenics.  Neither of which the average person knows how to deal with.

Some companies are experimenting with hydrogen for locomotives.  Restricted routes, experts at the refueling points, large amounts of space for tanks.  Generation at the refueling stations.  It could work.
 
2021-06-16 5:17:38 PM  

optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.


Hydrogen takes a ton of energy to extract.
It may burn clean, but making it is exactly as as dirty as the plant generating the electricity used to extract it.
-
/Hydrogen fueled cars, using hydrogen made by burning coal, is as clean as cars powered by, well, coal.
 
2021-06-16 5:41:44 PM  
This engine goes in a concept race car, and if there's one thing we know about concept race car engines, is that they're made for minimum running costs and that their efficiencies translate into the real world.

It's not actually intended to be a thing that people have.

Combustion engines are trash with efficiency, hydrogen production is trash with efficiency. By the time you've joined the two you might as well just use fossil fuels, you won't be reducing your greenhouse gasses at all.

On top of that combustion engines are trash on performance compared to electric motors.

I still don't consider hydrogen the future, but if it is, it will be hydrogen fuel cells and not this literal waste of energy.
 
2021-06-16 5:46:43 PM  
If they don't name that vehicle Manatee, I'm going to be very disappointed.
 
2021-06-16 5:47:34 PM  

ExYank: A Hydrogen car is just an EV that stores the energy in a tank and fuel cell. To fuel it you take Electricity and split water losing 40% of the energy. Then somehow miraculously store the hydrogen safely until time to burn it in a fuel cell losing another 20% of the energy.

A Battery EV uses electricity directly and loses only about 2% in the process. Running a hydrogen car takes three times as much electricity as a battery EV. Never gonna happen


So, how's that gonna work? People go to the river and fill up? That sounds like Exxon, Shell, and BP, etc would be trying to horn in on Nestlé's territory.
 
2021-06-16 5:58:00 PM  

GreatGlavinsGhost: ExYank: A Hydrogen car is just an EV that stores the energy in a tank and fuel cell. To fuel it you take Electricity and split water losing 40% of the energy. Then somehow miraculously store the hydrogen safely until time to burn it in a fuel cell losing another 20% of the energy.

A Battery EV uses electricity directly and loses only about 2% in the process. Running a hydrogen car takes three times as much electricity as a battery EV. Never gonna happen

So, how's that gonna work? People go to the river and fill up? That sounds like Exxon, Shell, and BP, etc would be trying to horn in on Nestlé's territory.


You could use off peak demand hours of surplus electricity and use that to split the water into hydrogen and O2.

Realistically, Exxon, Shell, and BP are just going to split the hydrogen off of fossil fuels and we won't be better off.
 
2021-06-16 6:02:55 PM  
https://www.renewableenergymagazine.c​o​m/hydrogen/new-powerpaste-for-hydrogen​-storage-20210204

See above, a pretty good solutions for the hydrogen storage problem
 
2021-06-16 6:57:53 PM  
Overfilled the tank again...

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-16 7:13:58 PM  

DuneClimber: [Fark user image 735x601]


More like this, actually...
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-16 7:26:28 PM  
This thread has anything a hydrogen thread should have. It has at least one poster using the royal "We" to mansplain to everyone that "we in the science community" have not figured out how to do x. Then we have a couple of Hindenburg pics and a couple of posters using the word "never" gratuitously. A scornful Prince and a Harry Potter car round out the hilarity.

Big news everyone. Toyota does actual research, and not just to put out driving yokes instead of steering wheels. One boom that has not come into Fark's radar range yet is production of natural gas vehicles in nations that already have the number one and number three amounts of electricity consumption. Using natural gas is one way to get around for short distances at low speeds in urban areas without stressing a stressed grid. The tanks are safe, the infrastructure exists. They are cheap to make and use.

Toyota is a bona fide global company. It makes a lot of hybrids which, SURPRISE, can be converted to natural gas or hydrogen combustion in a pinch, making them range-anxiety free, zero emission vehicles. Hydrogen production cost declines will catch up.


I will go glass half full on this one, as I do in a lot of cases.  I know of nations which have huge natural gas resources, hydro and renewable resources, and which probably will not be able to afford batteries once Ford starts using them for F-150s. Getting those nations to use natural gas instead of gasoline, and then hydrogen/NG mixes and eventually hydrogen combustion will give them a cleaner future with economic growth.

I get that nobody is interested in that. Go buy your expensive big battery vehicles and pat yourself on the back. Presumptions. Judgments. Derision. It is all par for the course for a day on Fark.

Every technological innovation reduces costs, if not only by increasing options for someone's development.
 
2021-06-16 7:33:32 PM  

Autoerotic Defenestration: [Fark user image image 500x500]


You could build pipelines.
 
2021-06-16 7:46:18 PM  
The Texas grid and China's nuclear difficulties are that snooze button on the alarm clock we keep hitting.

The wake up message seems to be saying that we need more renewables. If we wake up and let our feet hit the floor and start a crash program throughout the US Southwest and if China redoubles its efforts with solar and wind, then we STILL will not have anywhere near the battery capacity we would need to satisfy all of the demand for batteries people are setting us up for. Look at us CHEERING that BMW, Lincoln, Lexus all have their luxury brands producing a few vehicles for rich people. One percenters don't do 99% of the driving in the US and Europe.

Luckily, a pretty large group of people are thinking ahead, and not a lot of them are Americans, which should not be too surprising. Hydrogen COULD solve all problems of asynchronous electricity production and consumption. Hydrogen seems to be applicable in many different ways for transportation, heating, etc.

Mkay. If I did not exist, there would be nobody to say these things on Fark. There is a large group of people willing to proceed from one disaster to another and wish for a better world. There is another group of people working on solving looming problems so that the rest of us will have what we need when we need it. The first group might find something more constructive to do than just making fun of the second group.

/ I am channeling my inner disappointed cheerleader at a pep rally asking people to get serious.
// If nobody is interested in cutting consumption, somebody had better be paying attention to production.
/// Expensive batteries for Americans, hydrogen for the rest of the world?
 
2021-06-16 9:10:11 PM  

natazha: Hydrogen as a road fuel has many problems, starting with the grossly inefficient methods for creating it, the difficulties transporting it, storing it, and your choices are : high pressure or cryogenics.  Neither of which the average person knows how to deal with.

Some companies are experimenting with hydrogen for locomotives.  Restricted routes, experts at the refueling points, large amounts of space for tanks.  Generation at the refueling stations.  It could work.


At least cleaner-burning wrecks.
 
2021-06-16 9:15:25 PM  

2fardownthread: The Texas grid and China's nuclear difficulties are that snooze button on the alarm clock we keep hitting.

The wake up message seems to be saying that we need more renewables. If we wake up and let our feet hit the floor and start a crash program throughout the US Southwest and if China redoubles its efforts with solar and wind, then we STILL will not have anywhere near the battery capacity we would need to satisfy all of the demand for batteries people are setting us up for. Look at us CHEERING that BMW, Lincoln, Lexus all have their luxury brands producing a few vehicles for rich people. One percenters don't do 99% of the driving in the US and Europe.

Luckily, a pretty large group of people are thinking ahead, and not a lot of them are Americans, which should not be too surprising. Hydrogen COULD solve all problems of asynchronous electricity production and consumption. Hydrogen seems to be applicable in many different ways for transportation, heating, etc.

Mkay. If I did not exist, there would be nobody to say these things on Fark. There is a large group of people willing to proceed from one disaster to another and wish for a better world. There is another group of people working on solving looming problems so that the rest of us will have what we need when we need it. The first group might find something more constructive to do than just making fun of the second group.

/ I am channeling my inner disappointed cheerleader at a pep rally asking people to get serious.
// If nobody is interested in cutting consumption, somebody had better be paying attention to production.
/// Expensive batteries for Americans, hydrogen for the rest of the world?


Poster rags on people for using the royal "we," with accusations of mansplaining.

Proceeds to use the royal "we" more often in one post than in any other instances in the thread, in a long, detailed explanation.

//Yes I know I'm one of the guilty parties of using the royal "we," it's kind of difficult not to sometimes on topics like this
/Didn't feel like I was mansplaining, but I apologize if it came across that way
 
2021-06-16 9:47:37 PM  

arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.


...for like 80 miles until the hydrogen runs out. The Toyota Mirai uses a fuel cell that's roughly twice as efficient as a hydrogen-burning engine and it needs three tanks totaling 135L of capacity crammed under the vehicle just to get 400 miles of range.
 
2021-06-16 9:51:28 PM  

kyleaugustus: If you're going to revamp the whole of transit, it would be better to expand public transport and move people out of cars all together.


Ding ding ding ding ding! This is the actual answer. It is the least likely outcome (barring massive authoritarian crackdowns on personal transportation... which may become necessary if the global warming situation becomes too bleak). But it's the best outcome.
 
2021-06-16 9:56:40 PM  

phoenix352: You could use off peak demand hours of surplus electricity and use that to split the water into hydrogen and O2.


Yes, and this is the strongest argument for hydrogen. Unfortunately, it's not as easy as it sounds. First, the efficiency is abysmal. Second, it requires a lot more infrastructure and resources than a lot of people realize. Hydrogen proponents make it sound like you just stick some wires in a bucket of water and it farts out fuel for your car, but it's a very complicated process that requires a lot of heavy, specialized equipment.

Hydrogen will have a place in a new energy economy. As another poster said above, it will be in situations where the weight of a battery would be a problem and fueling takes place at a small number of predetermined locations. Think rail, airplanes, and probably rockets. Trucking might run on hydrogen too. There's just a lot more problems still to solve than there are with batteries.
 
2021-06-16 10:57:53 PM  
Also, if you're only allowed to run for half the day, does that mean you need to build a facility that's twice as large to produce the same amount? Is a facility twice as large more efficient than also running a smaller facility during peak hours?
 
2021-06-17 10:53:54 AM  

Likwit: arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.

...for like 80 miles until the hydrogen runs out. The Toyota Mirai uses a fuel cell that's roughly twice as efficient as a hydrogen-burning engine and it needs three tanks totaling 135L of capacity crammed under the vehicle just to get 400 miles of range.


That's an entire work week for me. But whatever.
 
2021-06-17 10:57:13 AM  

We Ate the Necco Wafers: arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.

Like replacing the fuel tanks, the engine, and exhaust. No biggie.


What's ultimately going to have to change about the engine that means you need an entirely different one? Modern engines change compression to deal with E85, and you think making it run off a gas instead of an aerosolized combustible liquid is a deal changer?
 
2021-06-17 12:53:25 PM  

arrogantbastich: We Ate the Necco Wafers: arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.

Like replacing the fuel tanks, the engine, and exhaust. No biggie.

What's ultimately going to have to change about the engine that means you need an entirely different one? Modern engines change compression to deal with E85, and you think making it run off a gas instead of an aerosolized combustible liquid is a deal changer?


The hydrogen ICE demonstrated in EE's video is terribly inefficient. In reality (away from prototype vehicles), hydrogen cell technology is likely the only realistic method of getting this 'non-polluting' fuel source on the road. Hydrogen fuel cell technology is more like an EV than an ICE.

https://www.toyota-europe.com/world-of​-toyota/feel/environment/better-air/fu​el-cell-vehicle (direct link is rejected by Fark's servers)

Now, that being said, sure, it might be possible to perform the conversion. After all, they did it to that Yaris I3 engine. But that's 1) pretty far off before it reaches the consumer aftermarket and 2) it appears to be a dead end with its poor performance. I wouldn't bet on a conversion kit coming any time soon.
 
2021-06-17 1:14:20 PM  

We Ate the Necco Wafers: arrogantbastich: We Ate the Necco Wafers: arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.

Like replacing the fuel tanks, the engine, and exhaust. No biggie.

What's ultimately going to have to change about the engine that means you need an entirely different one? Modern engines change compression to deal with E85, and you think making it run off a gas instead of an aerosolized combustible liquid is a deal changer?

The hydrogen ICE demonstrated in EE's video is terribly inefficient. In reality (away from prototype vehicles), hydrogen cell technology is likely the only realistic method of getting this 'non-polluting' fuel source on the road. Hydrogen fuel cell technology is more like an EV than an ICE.

https://www.toyota-europe.com/world-of​-toyota/feel/environment/better-air/fu​el-cell-vehicle (direct link is rejected by Fark's servers)

Now, that being said, sure, it might be possible to perform the conversion. After all, they did it to that Yaris I3 engine. But that's 1) pretty far off before it reaches the consumer aftermarket and 2) it appears to be a dead end with its poor performance. I wouldn't bet on a conversion kit coming any time soon.


They've deployed engine conversions for natural gas that don't require a wholesale new engine and they've had technical leaps like the interference type engine which gets far more output from the design. I'm hard pressed to think that there won't be a way to live with the base technology so it doesn't have to be all thrown away.

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong about costs or difficulties. What I'm pretty much saying is you're not right about the technology. Nobody thinks it'll deploy tomorrow. Just look how long it took to figure out lithium cell technology. Its replacement is probably already made in a lab somewhere. Would you scoff at that if it meant you'd have to change a voltage rail or however they move the electricity into the motor?
 
2021-06-17 2:53:38 PM  

arrogantbastich: Likwit: arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.

...for like 80 miles until the hydrogen runs out. The Toyota Mirai uses a fuel cell that's roughly twice as efficient as a hydrogen-burning engine and it needs three tanks totaling 135L of capacity crammed under the vehicle just to get 400 miles of range.

That's an entire work week for me. But whatever.


And it will cost $35 dollars for a fill up. $70 if it's green hydrogen.
 
2021-06-17 3:57:24 PM  

Likwit: arrogantbastich: Likwit: arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.

...for like 80 miles until the hydrogen runs out. The Toyota Mirai uses a fuel cell that's roughly twice as efficient as a hydrogen-burning engine and it needs three tanks totaling 135L of capacity crammed under the vehicle just to get 400 miles of range.

That's an entire work week for me. But whatever.

And it will cost $35 dollars for a fill up. $70 if it's green hydrogen.


It'll be less if they can build plugin units that can trickle fill a tank you can just plug into at your house.
 
2021-06-17 9:25:04 PM  

arrogantbastich: Likwit: arrogantbastich: Likwit: arrogantbastich: optikeye: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future...and it always will be.

with few modifications, the car you have now can run on it.

...for like 80 miles until the hydrogen runs out. The Toyota Mirai uses a fuel cell that's roughly twice as efficient as a hydrogen-burning engine and it needs three tanks totaling 135L of capacity crammed under the vehicle just to get 400 miles of range.

That's an entire work week for me. But whatever.

And it will cost $35 dollars for a fill up. $70 if it's green hydrogen.

It'll be less if they can build plugin units that can trickle fill a tank you can just plug into at your house.


No, it would most certainly be much, much more. The hydrogen has to be heavily compressed or frozen to hundreds below zero to get into the tank at any kind of usable level.
 
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