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(CNBC)   Ford says it will be charging more for half its Lincoln brand by 2026   (cnbc.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Plug-in hybrid, Ford Motor's luxury Lincoln brand, Electric vehicle, Lincoln President Joy Falotico, new restructuring plan, portfolio of vehicles, Hybrid electric vehicle, new EVs  
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462 clicks; posted to Business » on 16 Jun 2021 at 2:48 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-06-16 2:49:55 PM  
Alright, alright, alright
 
2021-06-16 2:50:42 PM  
It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.
 
2021-06-16 2:57:41 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.


We can only hope
 
2021-06-16 3:04:14 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.


You just need to get enough money from the ATM machine, after putting in your PIN number.
 
2021-06-16 3:07:11 PM  
Bold of them to predict people will still be buying Lincolns in the future.

/I barely see them on the road now
 
2021-06-16 3:10:15 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.


It's probably still 10 years or more from that level of ubiquity.  The charging infrastructure still has to catch up.

For instance, I recently bought a car, and would have considered electric or plug-in hybrid, but I live in an apartment building and there are all of 2 spaces outfitted for charging a vehicle. None whatsoever at my place of work, and both of these buildings were constructed in the last 15 years. There are some public charging stations nearby, but only a few dozen at most, and none of them are the "fast" chargers that can fully top-up a car in less than 2 hours.  Even most homes aren't set up for it yet (though that's the easiest part to address).

It will happen probably faster than I expect, but gas-powered cars aren't done yet.  Hopefully by the time I buy my next car I'll have bought a house where I can have a charger installed.
 
2021-06-16 3:12:24 PM  
Which is better/cheaper/easier, upgrading your existing electrical panel or getting a dedicated new panel for car charging?

My house has an 150 amp service panel, and it's basically full. I do had a 220v slot sorta open, but it has a panel surge suppressor in it. It looks like car chargers need about 30 to 50 amps, and for two of them it seems like a 100 amp second panel would be easiest.

Plus I don't think they'd grandfather in the 16 gauge ground wires that are in my house if I touched the main panel.
 
2021-06-16 3:20:14 PM  
The type of clientele attracted to a Lincoln won't buy electric.
 
2021-06-16 3:23:29 PM  

TheGreatGazoo: Which is better/cheaper/easier, upgrading your existing electrical panel or getting a dedicated new panel for car charging?

My house has an 150 amp service panel, and it's basically full. I do had a 220v slot sorta open, but it has a panel surge suppressor in it. It looks like car chargers need about 30 to 50 amps, and for two of them it seems like a 100 amp second panel would be easiest.

Plus I don't think they'd grandfather in the 16 gauge ground wires that are in my house if I touched the main panel.


Solar.
 
2021-06-16 3:36:20 PM  
i'm old. i remember when buying a car with a carb or manual transmission got harder.
 
2021-06-16 3:39:02 PM  

starlost: i'm old. i remember when buying a car with a carb or manual transmission got harder.


Oldness is a mindset. You're only old if you think a manual transmission or carburetor makes the car cool.
 
2021-06-16 3:42:23 PM  

Likwit: starlost: i'm old. i remember when buying a car with a carb or manual transmission got harder.

Oldness is a mindset. You're only old if you think a manual transmission or carburetor makes the car cool.


In Europe, a manual makes the car normal and not weird.
 
2021-06-16 3:46:14 PM  

Shaggy_C: Likwit: starlost: i'm old. i remember when buying a car with a carb or manual transmission got harder.

Oldness is a mindset. You're only old if you think a manual transmission or carburetor makes the car cool.

In Europe, a manual makes the car normal and not weird.


I've got no problem with that. It's when "car guys" think driving a manual is cool or requires some kind of special skill.
 
2021-06-16 3:46:39 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.


Nissan said that the new Z has no plans to offer an electric or hybrid version for this model run. It may be the last generation of the ICE version.
 
2021-06-16 3:47:35 PM  

disaster bastard: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.

Nissan said that the new Z has no plans to offer an electric or hybrid version for this model run. It may be the last generation of the ICE version.


Yeah, but then you have to drive a Nissan.

/Nissan driver
 
2021-06-16 4:07:47 PM  

Likwit: Yeah, but then you have to drive a Nissan.

/Nissan driver


As a former Nissan driver myself, I find that their manual transmissions are fine. Just avoid their CVTs like you would a Cosby martini.
 
2021-06-16 4:44:41 PM  
I'm seeing a lot of aggressive announcements from traditional car manufacturers about what percentage of their vehicle sales will be EVs over the next 5-10 years.  Based on the number of EVs available today and announced for the next year or two, I have a hard time believing that any of these goals will be met.
 
2021-06-16 5:20:52 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.


I'll believe it when I see it.

I could believe a slow ramp up.  But going from 0% to 50% of sales in five years (for Lincoln, as mentioned in the farking article)...no, no, I'm calling bullshiat.

I don't think the consumer demand is there.

I don't think the companies will have the ability to build that many either.
 
2021-06-16 5:24:36 PM  

Geotpf: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I could believe a slow ramp up.  But going from 0% to 50% of sales in five years (for Lincoln, as mentioned in the farking article)...no, no, I'm calling bullshiat.

I don't think the consumer demand is there.

I don't think the companies will have the ability to build that many either.


I disagree about demand. Currently Tesla, Hyundai, VW and Ford are selling every EV they make and can't keep enough stock on hand. Anyone who can get battery production up to a level that meets demand gets the chicken dinner.
 
2021-06-16 5:42:39 PM  

Likwit: Shaggy_C: Likwit: starlost: i'm old. i remember when buying a car with a carb or manual transmission got harder.

Oldness is a mindset. You're only old if you think a manual transmission or carburetor makes the car cool.

In Europe, a manual makes the car normal and not weird.

I've got no problem with that. It's when "car guys" think driving a manual is cool or requires some kind of special skill.


As opposed to what in Europe, that they can't afford automatics? Some kind of allergy?
 
2021-06-16 5:45:58 PM  

TheYeti: Likwit: Shaggy_C: Likwit: starlost: i'm old. i remember when buying a car with a carb or manual transmission got harder.

Oldness is a mindset. You're only old if you think a manual transmission or carburetor makes the car cool.

In Europe, a manual makes the car normal and not weird.

I've got no problem with that. It's when "car guys" think driving a manual is cool or requires some kind of special skill.

As opposed to what in Europe, that they can't afford automatics? Some kind of allergy?


What?
 
2021-06-16 5:49:43 PM  

Likwit: Geotpf: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I could believe a slow ramp up.  But going from 0% to 50% of sales in five years (for Lincoln, as mentioned in the farking article)...no, no, I'm calling bullshiat.

I don't think the consumer demand is there.

I don't think the companies will have the ability to build that many either.

I disagree about demand. Currently Tesla, Hyundai, VW and Ford are selling every EV they make and can't keep enough stock on hand. Anyone who can get battery production up to a level that meets demand gets the chicken dinner.


I think there's demand as a second car at both the high end (Tesla) and low end commuter vehicle (Leaf).

I think the amount of demand for a family's only or first car is near zero.  People like the ability to road trip easily.  So, logically, there's a wall where demand drops off significantly-and I also think there's a large percentage of the population who doesn't want one at all.

I also think there won't be a government ban of gas powered cars, at least in the US.  A ban is hard to justify, frankly-there are gas powered cars (not even hybrids) that produce so little pollution (PZEV class) that an electric car charging in an area still powered by coal pollutes much more.  Might even be close for an area with natural gas as the electrical power.

Now, at some future point, where you can charge your car as quickly as one fills up a gas tank, in common charging stations as common as gas stations, the road trip issue will go away.  But that ain't happening any time soon either.
 
2021-06-16 5:54:06 PM  

Geotpf: Likwit: Geotpf: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I could believe a slow ramp up.  But going from 0% to 50% of sales in five years (for Lincoln, as mentioned in the farking article)...no, no, I'm calling bullshiat.

I don't think the consumer demand is there.

I don't think the companies will have the ability to build that many either.

I disagree about demand. Currently Tesla, Hyundai, VW and Ford are selling every EV they make and can't keep enough stock on hand. Anyone who can get battery production up to a level that meets demand gets the chicken dinner.

I think there's demand as a second car at both the high end (Tesla) and low end commuter vehicle (Leaf).

I think the amount of demand for a family's only or first car is near zero.  People like the ability to road trip easily.  So, logically, there's a wall where demand drops off significantly-and I also think there's a large percentage of the population who doesn't want one at all.

I also think there won't be a government ban of gas powered cars, at least in the US.  A ban is hard to justify, frankly-there are gas powered cars (not even hybrids) that produce so little pollution (PZEV class) that an electric car charging in an area still powered by coal pollutes much more.  Might even be close for an area with natural gas as the electrical power.

Now, at some future point, where you can charge your car as quickly as one fills up a gas tank, in common charging stations as common as gas stations, the road trip issue will go away.  But that ain't happening any time soon either.


I don't actually know, but I personally disagree that road trips are an issue.

I also think it's weird that people base their car-buying decisions based on something they do maybe once or twice a year. It's whole other debate, but i also think it's weird that we've just accepted the idea that it's OK to pollute massively just because it's more convenient than not.
 
2021-06-16 6:01:14 PM  

Likwit: Geotpf: Likwit: Geotpf: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I could believe a slow ramp up.  But going from 0% to 50% of sales in five years (for Lincoln, as mentioned in the farking article)...no, no, I'm calling bullshiat.

I don't think the consumer demand is there.

I don't think the companies will have the ability to build that many either.

I disagree about demand. Currently Tesla, Hyundai, VW and Ford are selling every EV they make and can't keep enough stock on hand. Anyone who can get battery production up to a level that meets demand gets the chicken dinner.

I think there's demand as a second car at both the high end (Tesla) and low end commuter vehicle (Leaf).

I think the amount of demand for a family's only or first car is near zero.  People like the ability to road trip easily.  So, logically, there's a wall where demand drops off significantly-and I also think there's a large percentage of the population who doesn't want one at all.

I also think there won't be a government ban of gas powered cars, at least in the US.  A ban is hard to justify, frankly-there are gas powered cars (not even hybrids) that produce so little pollution (PZEV class) that an electric car charging in an area still powered by coal pollutes much more.  Might even be close for an area with natural gas as the electrical power.

Now, at some future point, where you can charge your car as quickly as one fills up a gas tank, in common charging stations as common as gas stations, the road trip issue will go away.  But that ain't happening any time soon either.

I don't actually know, but I personally disagree that road trips are an issue.

I also think it's weird that people base their car-buying decisions based on something they do maybe once or twice a year. It's whole other debate, but i also think it's weird that we've just accepted the idea that it's OK to pollute massively just because it ...


People buy SUVs because they "might" go off road sometime.  Maybe.

People buy giant pickups to go to pick up some soil and a couple 2x4s from Home Depot.
 
2021-06-16 6:03:22 PM  

Likwit: Geotpf: Likwit: Geotpf: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I could believe a slow ramp up.  But going from 0% to 50% of sales in five years (for Lincoln, as mentioned in the farking article)...no, no, I'm calling bullshiat.

I don't think the consumer demand is there.

I don't think the companies will have the ability to build that many either.

I disagree about demand. Currently Tesla, Hyundai, VW and Ford are selling every EV they make and can't keep enough stock on hand. Anyone who can get battery production up to a level that meets demand gets the chicken dinner.

I think there's demand as a second car at both the high end (Tesla) and low end commuter vehicle (Leaf).

I think the amount of demand for a family's only or first car is near zero.  People like the ability to road trip easily.  So, logically, there's a wall where demand drops off significantly-and I also think there's a large percentage of the population who doesn't want one at all.

I also think there won't be a government ban of gas powered cars, at least in the US.  A ban is hard to justify, frankly-there are gas powered cars (not even hybrids) that produce so little pollution (PZEV class) that an electric car charging in an area still powered by coal pollutes much more.  Might even be close for an area with natural gas as the electrical power.

Now, at some future point, where you can charge your car as quickly as one fills up a gas tank, in common charging stations as common as gas stations, the road trip issue will go away.  But that ain't happening any time soon either.

I don't actually know, but I personally disagree that road trips are an issue.

I also think it's weird that people base their car-buying decisions based on something they do maybe once or twice a year. It's whole other debate, but i also think it's weird that we've just accepted the idea that it's OK to pollute massively just because it's more convenient than not.


If your buying an electric car, your definitely using it as the daily driver.

The more you drive an EV, the bigger the cost advantage over ICE because operating costs are so much lower with EVs.  But EVs cost more, that's how the EV math works out.
 
2021-06-16 6:25:06 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Likwit: Geotpf: Likwit: Geotpf: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I could believe a slow ramp up.  But going from 0% to 50% of sales in five years (for Lincoln, as mentioned in the farking article)...no, no, I'm calling bullshiat.

I don't think the consumer demand is there.

I don't think the companies will have the ability to build that many either.

I disagree about demand. Currently Tesla, Hyundai, VW and Ford are selling every EV they make and can't keep enough stock on hand. Anyone who can get battery production up to a level that meets demand gets the chicken dinner.

I think there's demand as a second car at both the high end (Tesla) and low end commuter vehicle (Leaf).

I think the amount of demand for a family's only or first car is near zero.  People like the ability to road trip easily.  So, logically, there's a wall where demand drops off significantly-and I also think there's a large percentage of the population who doesn't want one at all.

I also think there won't be a government ban of gas powered cars, at least in the US.  A ban is hard to justify, frankly-there are gas powered cars (not even hybrids) that produce so little pollution (PZEV class) that an electric car charging in an area still powered by coal pollutes much more.  Might even be close for an area with natural gas as the electrical power.

Now, at some future point, where you can charge your car as quickly as one fills up a gas tank, in common charging stations as common as gas stations, the road trip issue will go away.  But that ain't happening any time soon either.

I don't actually know, but I personally disagree that road trips are an issue.

I also think it's weird that people base their car-buying decisions based on something they do maybe once or twice a year. It's whole other debate, but i also think it's weird that we've just accepted the idea that it's OK to pollute massively just because it's more convenient than not.

If your buying an electric car, your definitely using it as the daily driver.

The more you drive an EV, the bigger the cost advantage over ICE because operating costs are so much lower with EVs.  But EVs cost more, that's how the EV math works out.


I had to buy my first vehicle since high school 2017 because my wife wanted to move out of Kyoto proper to the countryside to be with her family. I cross-shopped a Nissan LEAF and Honda FIT. In the end the LEAF will take 10 years to break even on the FIT (i.e. never if you
 
2021-06-16 6:27:08 PM  
god dammit.

consider opportunity cost). But it's a much more pleasant vehicle to drive, and since we're lucky enough to live in an area with (relatively) cheap hydro power, the choice wasn't particularly difficult.

I figured we'd need a gas car for road trips, and Nissan gives LEAF owners 50% off rentals, but we've never needed it
 
2021-06-16 6:32:01 PM  

Likwit: I don't actually know, but I personally disagree that road trips are an issue.

I also think it's weird that people base their car-buying decisions based on something they do maybe once or twice a year. It's whole other debate, but i also think it's weird that we've just accepted the idea that it's OK to pollute massively just because it's more convenient than not.


Renting an ICEV/HEV for those rare situations not only alleviates the range anxiety issue, but you can choose a larger model that may be more comfortable for those long distances.
 
2021-06-16 6:50:47 PM  

Dinjiin: Likwit: I don't actually know, but I personally disagree that road trips are an issue.

I also think it's weird that people base their car-buying decisions based on something they do maybe once or twice a year. It's whole other debate, but i also think it's weird that we've just accepted the idea that it's OK to pollute massively just because it's more convenient than not.

Renting an ICEV/HEV for those rare situations not only alleviates the range anxiety issue, but you can choose a larger model that may be more comfortable for those long distances.


If I'm renting a vehicle to travel a long distance, I wouldn't give a rip about the mileage. I want the nicest, biggest rig I can fit everything in. And that probably isn't going to be a Suburban/Expedition/whatever.
 
2021-06-16 6:57:48 PM  

wxboy: For instance, I recently bought a car, and would have considered electric or plug-in hybrid, but I live in an apartment building and there are all of 2 spaces outfitted for charging a vehicle. None whatsoever at my place of work, and both of these buildings were constructed in the last 15 years. There are some public charging stations nearby, but only a few dozen at most, and none of them are the "fast" chargers that can fully top-up a car in less than 2 hours. Even most homes aren't set up for it yet (though that's the easiest part to address).


That lack of charging at home issue will likely sort itself out somewhat in the next 2 to 5 years as new building code mandates, tax credits, utility incentives, customer demand, falling prices for chargers, and new potential revenue streams all combine to make EV charging at apartments and condos either desirable or required.
 
2021-06-16 7:24:37 PM  
I wonder how long it took to switch from horse to ICE?
 
2021-06-16 7:58:03 PM  

Craw Fu: I'm seeing a lot of aggressive announcements from traditional car manufacturers about what percentage of their vehicle sales will be EVs over the next 5-10 years.  Based on the number of EVs available today and announced for the next year or two, I have a hard time believing that any of these goals will be met.


You have been watching the slow walk to the finish line of major manufacturers. All of them are proceeding, one would say cautiously, to get their cars out to market, but they are secretly waiting to see if the other guy can sell their cars before they really commit to doing something.

The existence of carbon credit markets makes the whole thing even more interesting. Most manufacturers, and Ford and GM especially, make a ton of money off of their trucks. Will they make their own EVs, or pay someone else to do it for them? Nobody knows. Maybe the game is to sell EVs to rich people who are liberal with money to burn for "green cred" in their community. Then you can feel ok about selling your trucks to make your big money.

Or maybe they are just setting themselves up to fail. Why not? Most Kyoto accord signatories did not meet their goals. The Paris accord will wind up the same way. Come the next recession, major manufacturers will give up their money-losing EV lines and nobody will bat an eye.

Well. That is just doomsaying. Anyhow, at the very least, these companies will have to produce and sell them profitably, which, I believe, has STILL never been done. Toyota tried and failed a decade ago. Toyota.

So. Let's see how this goes. I am giving this.... big battery awakening.... all the optimism it deserves.
 
2021-06-16 8:02:01 PM  

Dinjiin: wxboy: For instance, I recently bought a car, and would have considered electric or plug-in hybrid, but I live in an apartment building and there are all of 2 spaces outfitted for charging a vehicle. None whatsoever at my place of work, and both of these buildings were constructed in the last 15 years. There are some public charging stations nearby, but only a few dozen at most, and none of them are the "fast" chargers that can fully top-up a car in less than 2 hours. Even most homes aren't set up for it yet (though that's the easiest part to address).

That lack of charging at home issue will likely sort itself out somewhat in the next 2 to 5 years as new building code mandates, tax credits, utility incentives, customer demand, falling prices for chargers, and new potential revenue streams all combine to make EV charging at apartments and condos either desirable or required.


Does that seem realistic? That is all going to happen in basically the time it takes to elect and depose Trump, basically?

Just a rhetorical question.
 
2021-06-16 8:19:47 PM  

2fardownthread: Toyota tried and failed a decade ago. Toyota.


You keep saying this as if it proves BEVs aren't viable.

Toyota did not try and fail a decade ago. They made a compliance vehicle, they didn't even bother to design the battery or drive train, they made the absolute minimum amount they could to still meet the requirements, and then they canceled the project the second lobbyists were able to get the law changed.
 
2021-06-16 8:23:49 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Likwit: Geotpf: Likwit: Geotpf: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.


About your comment related to the EV being the daily driver, well, stating the obvious will irritate someone, but the more you use the battery, the more you are degrading it.

Your point is excellent that you have to use the battery to save money by using it. Unfortunately, batteries do get used up. They also lose efficiency and thereby cost you more even as they are saving you money.

I have run into this with residential and commercial battery systems designed for solar users. The vendors will ignore inefficiencies in their calculations, and you wind up with a battery running out of warranty before it pays for itself. A solar panel degrading to the point that you only get 50% output from it is still worth something. A battery that only gives back 50% of the power you put into it is worth less than nothing.

I guess what I am saying is TANSTAAFL.

Now I am going to bore you with an anecdote. So I have a plug in hybrid. Over the years, I have figured out that I can adjust my reactive braking when going down hills to charge up my battery... yipppeeee! But then I figured out that, as great as that is, I am just charging and discharging my battery A LOT..... boooooo. So now, I usually set my reactive braking to about zero and use the kinetic energy of higher speeds going down hills instead of trying to slow the vehicle artificially. ..... yippeee!  No brake wear. No generator/recharger/battery wear. I just let my speed fluctuate a little more. The average driver will not be so concerned about battery degradation. I wonder how that will turn out.
 
2021-06-16 8:25:49 PM  

Likwit: 2fardownthread: Toyota tried and failed a decade ago. Toyota.

You keep saying this as if it proves BEVs aren't viable.

Toyota did not try and fail a decade ago. They made a compliance vehicle, they didn't even bother to design the battery or drive train, they made the absolute minimum amount they could to still meet the requirements, and then they canceled the project the second lobbyists were able to get the law changed.


Well, that is one interpretation. Thanks for sharing.

My point was not that Toyota failing at it proves it is not viable. My point was that nobody has shown it to be viable in the first place.

Please read carefully.
 
2021-06-16 8:28:59 PM  

2fardownthread: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Likwit: Geotpf: Likwit: Geotpf: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.

About your comment related to the EV being the daily driver, well, stating the obvious will irritate someone, but the more you use the battery, the more you are degrading it.

Your point is excellent that you have to use the battery to save money by using it. Unfortunately, batteries do get used up. They also lose efficiency and thereby cost you more even as they are saving you money.

I have run into this with residential and commercial battery systems designed for solar users. The vendors will ignore inefficiencies in their calculations, and you wind up with a battery running out of warranty before it pays for itself. A solar panel degrading to the point that you only get 50% output from it is still worth something. A battery that only gives back 50% of the power you put into it is worth less than nothing.

I guess what I am saying is TANSTAAFL.

Now I am going to bore you with an anecdote. So I have a plug in hybrid. Over the years, I have figured out that I can adjust my reactive braking when going down hills to charge up my battery... yipppeeee! But then I figured out that, as great as that is, I am just charging and discharging my battery A LOT..... boooooo. So now, I usually set my reactive braking to about zero and use the kinetic energy of higher speeds going down hills instead of trying to slow the vehicle artificially. ..... yippeee!  No brake wear. No generator/recharger/battery wear. I just let my speed fluctuate a little more. The average driver will not be so concerned about battery degradation. I wonder how that will turn out.


50% efficiency loss? K
 
2021-06-16 8:30:24 PM  

2fardownthread: Likwit: 2fardownthread: Toyota tried and failed a decade ago. Toyota.

You keep saying this as if it proves BEVs aren't viable.

Toyota did not try and fail a decade ago. They made a compliance vehicle, they didn't even bother to design the battery or drive train, they made the absolute minimum amount they could to still meet the requirements, and then they canceled the project the second lobbyists were able to get the law changed.

Well, that is one interpretation. Thanks for sharing.

My point was not that Toyota failing at it proves it is not viable. My point was that nobody has shown it to be viable in the first place.

Please read carefully.


Tesla hasn't made a viable EV? They sell more of each model in one year than your previous iMiev sold in its entire decade-long run.
 
2021-06-16 8:34:58 PM  

Geotpf: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: It's going to be hard to buy a new auto with an ICE engine in a few years.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I could believe a slow ramp up.  But going from 0% to 50% of sales in five years (for Lincoln, as mentioned in the farking article)...no, no, I'm calling bullshiat.

I don't think the consumer demand is there.

I don't think the companies will have the ability to build that many either.


Sure. They are just opinions. They seem reasonable, though.

I mean, how many times have we been taken in by corporate lip service to do something totally different, only to have goalposts shifted, companies go belly up, projects cancelled, etc.? Happens all the time.

Certainly it is easier to say that you are going to do something than to actually do it. So there is that. But there is also a lot of FUD value and VAPORWARE value to this. All of these manufacturers are playing liar's poker, claiming that they are going after some great market that nobody can make money at. Secretly, they are hoping the other guy is going to fall for all of the feinting and go rushing in to make their own Edsel.

Panasonic MUST HAVE told Musk that power-roof type installations are a huge white elephant. Because in fact, Panasonic and others used to make a power-roof type system that they could not sell profitably, and eventually could not sell at all. That was a decade ago. But Tesla jumped into that market whole-hog, with predictable results.

It is fun to watch. I am so glad that I never drank the Kool Aid. Watching this unfold while sober and lucid will be very entertaining.
 
2021-06-16 8:38:17 PM  

Likwit: 2fardownthread: Likwit: 2fardownthread: Toyota tried and failed a decade ago. Toyota.

You keep saying this as if it proves BEVs aren't viable.

Toyota did not try and fail a decade ago. They made a compliance vehicle, they didn't even bother to design the battery or drive train, they made the absolute minimum amount they could to still meet the requirements, and then they canceled the project the second lobbyists were able to get the law changed.

Well, that is one interpretation. Thanks for sharing.

My point was not that Toyota failing at it proves it is not viable. My point was that nobody has shown it to be viable in the first place.

Please read carefully.

Tesla hasn't made a viable EV? They sell more of each model in one year than your previous iMiev sold in its entire decade-long run.


Please read carefully.

Profitably. I mean, I know that Tesla has plenty of investor money and subsidy money to keep their production going. Other manufacturers don't, in the main, is what I am saying.

I am not sure what your MEEB hangup is. Advice. Instead of trying to come up with snappy patter, read more carefully.
 
2021-06-16 8:45:05 PM  

2fardownthread: Tesla has plenty of investor money and subsidy money to keep their production going. Other manufacturers don't, in the main, is what I am saying.


VW? Also, why shouldn't EVs be subsidized? They're competing with a technology that's received trillions of dollars in subsidies of all types over decades.

An as for the iMiev, I just want you to be intellectually honest once. It was the same hang up I had with your glowing praise of the Toyota Mirai while you shiat on the Tesla Model 3, Bolt, LEAF, etc.
You're incredibly skilled at the gish gallop. It's quite annoying to see you in any thread related to the environment.
 
2021-06-16 8:45:38 PM  

majestic: The type of clientele attracted to a Lincoln won't buy electric.


I know a Lincoln driver. Two generations of Lincoln drivers. And this is definitely true.

The STEEL HULK LAND YACHT mentality is ONLY an EV mentality if you think that EVs were meant to be 6500 pounds, as is the F150EV, or if something called a ROADSTER OR COUPE weighs in at way beyond a ton. The EV concept in the US has been so divorced from keywords such as "green" and "conservation" that these huge bulky vehicles are satire. Sorry. I guess PARODY fits better.

Chop up the battery for this thing and make at least 10 hybrids that people will use for a daily commute. Price them at about 25K dollars and the world will be a lot better off. I promise.
 
2021-06-16 8:47:38 PM  
Tesla has higher margins than the industry average. As long as their stock price is outsized and they can make money off of carbon credits, they'd be stupid not to take that money, crank up their R&D spending to 11, and keep building charging stations and factories.
 
2021-06-16 8:58:30 PM  

Likwit: 2fardownthread: Tesla has plenty of investor money and subsidy money to keep their production going. Other manufacturers don't, in the main, is what I am saying.

VW? Also, why shouldn't EVs be subsidized? They're competing with a technology that's received trillions of dollars in subsidies of all types over decades.

An as for the iMiev, I just want you to be intellectually honest once. It was the same hang up I had with your glowing praise of the Toyota Mirai while you shiat on the Tesla Model 3, Bolt, LEAF, etc.
You're incredibly skilled at the gish gallop. It's quite annoying to see you in any thread related to the environment.


"People who annoy you.... =I==I=" I think I saw that on SouthPark once. Your name did not come up though.

There are lots of reasons EVs should not be subsidized. Some reasons they should be. It should not be the Raison D'Etre for their existence. I think Tesla is over-subsidized, especially considering that it has free capital already.

Um. I don't think I ever cheerled for a MEEB. I might have said some people like to drive them. I do not "shiat" on anything that is advertised as a useful vehicle. I mentioned my nephew who has a Bolt and likes it. But a BOLT is basically a plug in hybrid. And you and I both, but mostly you, complained about battery degradation with respect to the LEAF, you being an owner of one, and me being a guy who thought maybe about buying a used one for fun.

And just to be brutally honest, my chief beef with Tesla is that they use ridiculous amounts of resources to make carnival rides for rich people.

Oh, and I have driven Mirais on numerous occasions, as an adult might drive, and thoroughly enjoyed it. They are nice cars and getting nicer.

Hey! More light. Less heat. People take you a lot more seriously when you are not so caustic.
 
2021-06-16 9:04:59 PM  

2fardownthread: carnival rides for rich people.

Oh, and I have driven Mirais on numerous occasions, as an adult might drive


This. This is the kind of dishonesty we talked about, little buddy.

The "adult car" you speak of is more expensive, heavier, slower, bigger on the outside, smaller on the inside, and half as efficient as the "carnival ride for rich folks" you always complain about.
 
2021-06-16 9:09:29 PM  

2fardownthread: Likwit: 2fardownthread:

Oh, and I have driven Mirais on numerous occasions,


Where/when? They are completely useless unless you live between the 4 stations that actually have hydrogen.
 
2021-06-16 9:41:38 PM  

2fardownthread: But then I figured out that, as great as that is, I am just charging and discharging my battery A LOT..... boooooo.


I missed this gem. Regen typically pumps about 40%ish the amount of electricity into the battery as the motor spent getting the car up to speed. You're not going to save your battery much by not using regen. Either you don't understand this or you do understand and you're trying to spread FUD about BEV battery degradation. Either way, it makes it annoying that you have to bukkake your silliness all over these threads.

One thing you are accidentally right about is that coasting is great. But only because it's more efficient to let the vehicle continue moving than try to recapture energy you expended accelerating.
 
2021-06-17 1:34:26 AM  

2fardownthread: Dinjiin: wxboy: For instance, I recently bought a car, and would have considered electric or plug-in hybrid, but I live in an apartment building and there are all of 2 spaces outfitted for charging a vehicle. None whatsoever at my place of work, and both of these buildings were constructed in the last 15 years. There are some public charging stations nearby, but only a few dozen at most, and none of them are the "fast" chargers that can fully top-up a car in less than 2 hours. Even most homes aren't set up for it yet (though that's the easiest part to address).

That lack of charging at home issue will likely sort itself out somewhat in the next 2 to 5 years as new building code mandates, tax credits, utility incentives, customer demand, falling prices for chargers, and new potential revenue streams all combine to make EV charging at apartments and condos either desirable or required.

Does that seem realistic? That is all going to happen in basically the time it takes to elect and depose Trump, basically?

Just a rhetorical question.


It depends on what your goals are.  Very very few cities have EV infrastructure code that requires every parking space be electrified to support Level-II charging.  Most with such code have rather modest requirements, typically under 20%.  However, there is a huge push for parking spaces to be "EV Capable", which is the term for having conduit run between the space and an electrical panel with sufficient capacity.  That significantly cuts the cost for future deployments since the digging is the hard part.  It also allows for a more incremental rollout as demand necessitates.
 
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