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(Onion AV Club)   Loki's head writer says Marvel never gave him control of the Infinity Stones, but he obviously was granted a day pass to the TVA   (avclub.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Doctor Strange, Marvel Universe, Exquisite corpse, Marvel's new darling, Hood, Loki spec script, Thor, Spec script  
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815 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 15 Jun 2021 at 10:40 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-06-15 9:24:24 AM  
Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.
 
2021-06-15 9:35:51 AM  

nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.


The Avengers were *sanctioned.* 
BY WHOM?
The Writers of Disney.

...I am amused by the whole "some of the guys around here use them as paperweights."  And by dot-matrix printers.
 
2021-06-15 11:09:54 AM  

nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.


How so? Endgame was "meant to happen". Beyond that, they even made it a point to put the stones back in the timeline where they were taken, thereby preserving the Sacred Timeline.
 
2021-06-15 11:13:05 AM  
It's a thing from the comics that Infinity Gems from other universes are useless.
 
2021-06-15 11:19:17 AM  

nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.


Not to Roosevelt, and I refuse to believe that Captain America would sully his good name.
 
2021-06-15 11:46:08 AM  
No master plan?   Bring in new writers to write their stories in a void of over-arching information?

JJ and Rian would like to join this club.
 
2021-06-15 12:08:27 PM  
After watching the first episode, and seeing Loki's kaleidoscope of emotions from realizing 

1) The infinity stones don't work in TVA-land and
2) How his 'burdened by great purpose' only resulted in misery and a life completely miss-spent

I'm all in. It's well written. Hell, there's was very little action, and I soaked up Loki's and Mobius' discussion like a sponge. 

The attention to detail, the world building, hell, even the sets alone were beyond involving. Anyone getting a Ruin Johnson vibe from this should punch themselves in the crotch until they're unconscious. 

Also a huge thumbs up for Natalie Holt's score. Holy schitt.
 
2021-06-15 12:12:48 PM  
I enjoyed the first episode of Loki for sure.  Definitely didn't feel like 40-45 minutes had gone by the time credits rolled.

/moar
 
2021-06-15 12:20:25 PM  
Those useless baubles? Some of the guys use them as paperweights.
 
2021-06-15 12:30:07 PM  

palelizard: nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.

How so? Endgame was "meant to happen". Beyond that, they even made it a point to put the stones back in the timeline where they were taken, thereby preserving the Sacred Timeline.


1) the TVA clearly states that there is ONE TIMELINE, the "sacred timeline" therefore the Ancient One's explanation of multiple timelines can't be simultaneously accurate.

1a) Dr. Strange said he looked into millions of alternate universes and there is only one in which they win, according to one sacred timeline, he should just have seen what happens.

2) Endgame can't be "meant to happen" because it requires changing the past. If there is only one sacred timeline, then there is no changing the past, there is only "the past.*" You can't drag Thanos out of another timeline, because it didn't happen in your timeline and there is only one "sacred timeline."

3) If Loki is a variant because what he did was different than what happened in the MCU up until endgame, then by necessity so are Thanos2 et al. and Old Cap. Old Cap might be a variant too, but Thanos2 is necessary for the main timeline, meaning that you need at least two concurrent timelines (one where Thanos didn't travel and got beheaded, and a second where he showed up to reverse the blip). This breaks the TVA rule of one "sacred timeline."

4) If there are actually multiple timelines, from which you can drag a second Thanos, and into which Captain America can disappear for a lifetime, what the hell is the TVA protecting, exactly?


*You can have causal time loops (see "Primer," or Heinlein story "All You Zombies," but not, stupidly, "Looper"). but any present you witness will have incorporated and be consistent with your time travel, so nothing will change.
 
2021-06-15 12:31:12 PM  
BTW, I really like Loki, it just doesn't mesh with the MCU.
 
2021-06-15 12:57:18 PM  

nmrsnr: palelizard: nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.

How so? Endgame was "meant to happen". Beyond that, they even made it a point to put the stones back in the timeline where they were taken, thereby preserving the Sacred Timeline.

1) the TVA clearly states that there is ONE TIMELINE, the "sacred timeline" therefore the Ancient One's explanation of multiple timelines can't be simultaneously accurate.

1a) Dr. Strange said he looked into millions of alternate universes and there is only one in which they win, according to one sacred timeline, he should just have seen what happens.


He could see the alternate possibilities. The Time stone let him view how things "might" go, but the end result was INEVITABLE.

2) Endgame can't be "meant to happen" because it requires changing the past. If there is only one sacred timeline, then there is no changing the past, there is only "the past.*" You can't drag Thanos out of another timeline, because it didn't happen in your timeline and there is only one "sacred timeline."

The Sacred Timeline was the Avengers went back and changed things, except they didn't, and then Thanos2 arrived from the past because they had all the stones and he didn't need to hunt them down.

3) If Loki is a variant because what he did was different than what happened in the MCU up until endgame, then by necessity so are Thanos2 et al. and Old Cap. Old Cap might be a variant too, but Thanos2 is necessary for the main timeline, meaning that you need at least two concurrent timelines (one where Thanos didn't travel and got beheaded, and a second where he showed up to reverse the blip). This breaks the TVA rule of one "sacred timeline."

Loki would have been reset when the TVA reset the timeline and just gone to all the post-Avengers movies (including his death) because that's what happened. He got special pulled out the timeline because he's useful, but his native timeline has been erased, so now they have a spare Loki.

4) If there are actually multiple timelines, from which you can drag a second Thanos, and into which Captain America can disappear for a lifetime, what the hell is the TVA protecting, exactly?

*You can have causal time loops (see "Primer," or Heinlein story "All You Zombies," but not, stupidly, "Looper"). but any present you witness will have incorporated and be consistent with your time travel, so nothing will change.


Because that's what always happened.

I'll be honest, Marvel's time travel is dumb and I feel dumber for defending it.
 
2021-06-15 1:10:26 PM  

nmrsnr: BTW, I really like Loki, it just doesn't mesh with the MCU.


dailydot.comView Full Size

Some of the best Marvel TV doesn't mesh with the MCU.

/The finale was meh, but, wow, the trip there!
 
2021-06-15 1:51:54 PM  
Now I can't decide between a TVA jumpsuit, or a VARIANT windbreaker.

For Halloween.  Yeah, totally for Halloween.
 
2021-06-15 1:54:10 PM  
Either the author of TFA or I don't understand English. Which is it?

"When Marvel taps a writer or a director, do they invite them into a board room of secrets where the studio's plans for the next 10 years are revealed? Or is everyone just working "exquisite corpse" style to make something great? The answer, as Waldron relays, is sort of the former"

In this case "the former" is laying out the grand plan for the writer or director to follow, and the answer from Waldron is not that. Isn't it sort of the latter, not the former?
 
2021-06-15 1:54:20 PM  
Didn't one of the people in the TVA--right about the time Loki sees the useless Infinity Stones--call him the madman with a blue box?

I thought that was a little ...weird.
 
2021-06-15 1:55:11 PM  

nmrsnr: 1) the TVA clearly states that there is ONE TIMELINE, the "sacred timeline" therefore the Ancient One's explanation of multiple timelines can't be simultaneously accurate.

1a) Dr. Strange said he looked into millions of alternate universes and there is only one in which they win, according to one sacred timeline, he should just have seen what happens.


Observation: The TVA is full of shiat, and if you look closely (thanks, New Rockstars!) they're pushing a narrative that may or may not be accurate.
 
2021-06-15 2:01:09 PM  

scalpod: Those useless baubles? Some of the guys use them as paperweights.


Fwiw, infinity gems only function in the reality they came from. Take them out of their "home" and they are powerless.
 
2021-06-15 2:56:31 PM  

nmrsnr: palelizard: nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.

How so? Endgame was "meant to happen". Beyond that, they even made it a point to put the stones back in the timeline where they were taken, thereby preserving the Sacred Timeline.

1) the TVA clearly states that there is ONE TIMELINE, the "sacred timeline" therefore the Ancient One's explanation of multiple timelines can't be simultaneously accurate.


Without getting in to the rest of your points, you seem to be misunderstanding their explanation (and the context of the Ancient One) which might be causing other confusion.

The "sacred timeline" is the one which the TVA protects. That doesn't mean that other timelines can't exist - it just means they're not the special one the three space lizards and the TVA "favor" and the TVA's reason for existing is to kill off the other timelines after they are created. The episode both explains and shows them doing this in detail. They never said that it isn't possible for other timelines to exist, they said that it could cause problems if they allow them to continue so the TVA was created in order to kill them off when some variant event happens and creates one.

The Ancient One, however, simply doesn't appear to be aware of the TVA. She explains to Banner how things work as she understands them, but she (and nearly everyone else in the MCU) just don't know what they don't know. They don't know there's an organization which works to keep alternate timelines under control, so they theorize as to what will happen without factoring that in.

And in the first episode they briefly touched on the fact that the time travel the Avengers did was "supposed" to happen, and is part of the favored "sacred" timeline. The Avengers, after all, did work themselves to trim off all the alternative timelines they would have been creating.

Now what constitutes the sanctioned "sacred" timeline and what is non-sanctioned does seem pretty arbitrary. That doesn't mean it's a plot hole, that just means we've only seen episode 1 of 6. I suspect the arbitrary nature of what's an approved timeline and what isn't is going to come up as a major plot point in the remaining five episodes.
 
2021-06-15 3:16:57 PM  

EyeballKid: Some of the best Marvel TV doesn't mesh with the MCU.


I might've been able to watch Legion if I didn't know it was supposed to be based on X-men-adjacent characters. The episodes I watched had about as much to do with Marvel IP as LaCroix does to flavor.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Cloak and Dagger, Runaways and Netflix Marvel shows other than the Punisher (fark the Punisher) incorporated into the MCU, since there's nothing really incompatible.

Something I would like to see, just as a bone, is for Coulson to show up and have the Agents of Shield reality nuked, if only to acknowledge that those things DID happen, even in a now meaningless timeline.
 
2021-06-15 3:42:41 PM  

xanadian: Didn't one of the people in the TVA--right about the time Loki sees the useless Infinity Stones--call him the madman with a blue box?

I thought that was a little ...weird.


Kinda Doctor Whoish, wasn't it? ;)
 
2021-06-15 3:51:33 PM  

mongbiohazard: I suspect the arbitrary nature of what's an approved timeline and what isn't is going to come up as a major plot point in the remaining five episodes.


Another thing to consider is how it seems the TVA is going to fail anyway....

First, they indicated, and flat out said, when there was no control, the timelines and multiverses created madness. See what they did there, multiverse of madness?

We can infer from the end of WandaVision and just from the first episode of Loki that Wanda might have messed with reality enough to create a timeline in which there is a Time Variant universe in which her kids exist.

I suspect that the tortured sounds of her kids at the end of WandaVision was the TVA attempting to destroy that Variation.

We learned that the reason our POV Loki is recruited by the TVA is to hunt down another variant of himself that seems to be more dangerous and seemingly has a goal in mind to destroy the TVA...

What if...

The Loki messing with the TVA is actually helping Wanda? Also, what if the Loki they are hunting IS our Loki, but from the future of THIS show?

My thoughts for Loki and how it ties into WandaVision...

We will get glimpses of what the motive of the BBEG Loki is doing and find out that maybe his motive isn't so malicious after all. By the end of the show BBEG Loki will show our Loki how that destroying other timelines does not protect the sacred timeline, it only appears that way because until Wanda breached reality, no one else had the ability to perceive what the TVA was doing, which ultimately is no different than what Thanos did. In the end it comes down to the power to make choices and the consequences therein.

Remember that whole scene where Mobius and Loki talk about him being the master of his own destiny and he gets to make the choice? All of that dialogue wasn't an accident. It's going to be the central plot and theme to this entire show.

Do we have the power to make choice or is it just a perception we have because we don't see all of the gears working behind the scenes (aka beyond reality) to make it seem that way. Our Loki will be the TVA's attempt to correct their own mistake. They recruited Loki before and Loki realized that the TVA and the Sacred  Timeline all play a role in removing agency and choice but giving the appearance of it, and the cost of all of that are potential lives lost. All of the people and souls from all of the multiverses because someone made a choice the TVA didn't approve of are destroyed the way Thanos destroyed them. Instead of half the population being dusted our of existence, entire realities are dusted without a second thought.

BBEG Loki is going to have major issues with this. He will come to the conclusion that destiny is only preordained only because the TVA makes it so.

I suspect BBEG Loki is from a future timeline, possibly one in which he helped Thanos instead of dying as he was "supposed to" or some other choice that created a variant. And they are recruiting a Loki variant that is ignorant of the events of End Game on purpose.

How this plays into WandaVision, I suspect it's because in the alternate future, Wanda might have played some key role in helping Loki or they may just cross paths as she creates her own Variations and the fact that she has enough power to make the choices regardless of the TVA he might help her out by stopping the TVA... Who knows there... but I do suspect it has to do with "choice" and the difference between the illusion of choice, and the reality of it.
 
2021-06-15 3:58:12 PM  
Some interesting commentary from you folks, both for and against the plot of the limited series. I enjoyed the show and look forward to more episodes, especially if they appear to be somewhat similar to Fallout art and concepts.
 
2021-06-15 4:24:24 PM  

Myrdinn: nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.

...I am amused by the whole "some of the guys around here use them as paperweights."  And by dot-matrix printers.


I thought that was hilarious.  I little Googling taught me that the stones only work in the universe that they're from (per the comics).
 
2021-06-15 4:30:30 PM  

Myrdinn: nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.

The Avengers were *sanctioned.*
BY WHOM?
The Writers of Disney.

...I am amused by the whole "some of the guys around here use them as paperweights."  And by dot-matrix printers.


I was almost as stunned as Loki when I first saw that scene. And I thought "Well so much for thinking those stones were the ultimate things in the universe".
 
2021-06-15 5:10:16 PM  

nmrsnr: palelizard: nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.

How so? Endgame was "meant to happen". Beyond that, they even made it a point to put the stones back in the timeline where they were taken, thereby preserving the Sacred Timeline.

1) the TVA clearly states that there is ONE TIMELINE, the "sacred timeline" therefore the Ancient One's explanation of multiple timelines can't be simultaneously accurate.


Why do you think they're authoritative?  Why is this organization suddenly 100% correct without any permutation or nuance or flat-out pompous loudmouthed wrongheaded?  Why are you taking the words of an individual with an OBVIOUS agenda at face value?
 
2021-06-15 5:45:07 PM  

browneye: Myrdinn: nmrsnr: Well, clearly, because the whole concept of the TVA flies in the face of the entire plot of Endgame.

The Avengers were *sanctioned.*
BY WHOM?
The Writers of Disney.

...I am amused by the whole "some of the guys around here use them as paperweights."  And by dot-matrix printers.

I was almost as stunned as Loki when I first saw that scene. And I thought "Well so much for thinking those stones were the ultimate things in the universe".


I loved that scene... The gravity of the situation finally sinking in for Loki in that moment was awesome. The whole, "awwwww shiat, I thought I knew how shiat worked but I really farkin' don't" moment.  /chef's kiss
 
2021-06-15 6:27:59 PM  

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: mongbiohazard: I suspect the arbitrary nature of what's an approved timeline and what isn't is going to come up as a major plot point in the remaining five episodes.

Another thing to consider is how it seems the TVA is going to fail anyway....

First, they indicated, and flat out said, when there was no control, the timelines and multiverses created madness. See what they did there, multiverse of madness?


We've already seen the spoiler for the TVA failing, and failing hard. In one of the scenes in the previews, we see the Sacred Timeline suddenly rife with tons of variants, whereas with Loki poofing TF out with the Tesseract, we just see one. 

In the scene in the preview, the monitor that shows the TVA's Prime Timeline status, you suddenly see about fifteen or twenty variants / divergent lines suddenly bloom out of control, with Mobius M. Mobius looking on in horror. 

Since the next major film is the "Multiverse of Madness', I think it's fair to say that the TVA is going to go down, and go down hard. How that happens? No idea. 

Could be thanks to Wanda

Could be Loki getting beyond pissed off and making sure that nobody, utterly no one decides what to prune, nor can they prune timelines. 

We might see Loki acting in unison with all the other Lokii, in order to overthrow the TVA. 

Or, it could be that Wanda absolutely breaks everything.
 
2021-06-16 5:58:02 AM  
I look forward to seeing the TVA fall, because they are genocidal monsters on a completely unimaginable scale.

And sometimes they will commit that genocide just because they don't want to go through hassle and paperwork of getting a branch "back on track".
 
2021-06-16 6:01:13 AM  
I actually wouldn't be surprised if we learn that the "branches" aren't newly-spawned multiverse a at all-that the "one sacred timeline" is just making sure every multiverse is *identical*: if they are all exactly the same, and can be steered towards a course of non-interference, then no new multiverse war happens

So pruning isn't just the genocide of a new time-branch, but simply the utter destruction of an entire multiverse.
 
2021-06-16 9:13:35 AM  

Felgraf: I actually wouldn't be surprised if we learn that the "branches" aren't newly-spawned multiverse a at all-that the "one sacred timeline" is just making sure every multiverse is *identical*: if they are all exactly the same, and can be steered towards a course of non-interference, then no new multiverse war happens

So pruning isn't just the genocide of a new time-branch, but simply the utter destruction of an entire multiverse.


Why would the Keepers want multiples of themselves?  The sacredness of the timeline is simply that it's the one that gives rise to the Keepers.
 
2021-06-16 1:58:20 PM  

AdrienVeidt: Felgraf: I actually wouldn't be surprised if we learn that the "branches" aren't newly-spawned multiverse a at all-that the "one sacred timeline" is just making sure every multiverse is *identical*: if they are all exactly the same, and can be steered towards a course of non-interference, then no new multiverse war happens

So pruning isn't just the genocide of a new time-branch, but simply the utter destruction of an entire multiverse.

Why would the Keepers want multiples of themselves?  The sacredness of the timeline is simply that it's the one that gives rise to the Keepers.


The keepers could be from a multiverse where they were the only one of themselves, and the TVA is that multiverse.
 
2021-06-16 2:16:53 PM  

Felgraf: AdrienVeidt: Felgraf: I actually wouldn't be surprised if we learn that the "branches" aren't newly-spawned multiverse a at all-that the "one sacred timeline" is just making sure every multiverse is *identical*: if they are all exactly the same, and can be steered towards a course of non-interference, then no new multiverse war happens

So pruning isn't just the genocide of a new time-branch, but simply the utter destruction of an entire multiverse.

Why would the Keepers want multiples of themselves?  The sacredness of the timeline is simply that it's the one that gives rise to the Keepers.

The keepers could be from a multiverse where they were the only one of themselves, and the TVA is that multiverse.


They're not supra-universal beings like The One Above All.  They're mere mortal beings with power like Thanos.
 
2021-06-16 3:07:54 PM  

AdrienVeidt: Felgraf: AdrienVeidt: Felgraf: I actually wouldn't be surprised if we learn that the "branches" aren't newly-spawned multiverse a at all-that the "one sacred timeline" is just making sure every multiverse is *identical*: if they are all exactly the same, and can be steered towards a course of non-interference, then no new multiverse war happens

So pruning isn't just the genocide of a new time-branch, but simply the utter destruction of an entire multiverse.

Why would the Keepers want multiples of themselves?  The sacredness of the timeline is simply that it's the one that gives rise to the Keepers.

The keepers could be from a multiverse where they were the only one of themselves, and the TVA is that multiverse.

They're not supra-universal beings like The One Above All.  They're mere mortal beings with power like Thanos.


Then they may have come from multiverses that have since been erased: Perhaps in the "One sacred timeline", *none of them arise or exist*.
 
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