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(TaxProf)   College enrollment plummets by 727,000. In related news, beer sales are down 186,000,000 barrels   (taxprof.typepad.com) divider line
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1428 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jun 2021 at 7:20 PM (4 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

 
4 days ago  
20 votes:
In 2019-2020, there were 1.1 million international students in the US. I wonder what the dropoff was this spring given who could/could not get into the country in the fall term to start the semester. There are still potential issues for next academic year too
 
4 days ago  
15 votes:
A.) You missed enrollment due to COVID-19 after graduating in 2020.  Either you or your parents were too afraid to send you, your chosen school closed down, or you just decided to "wait a year".

B.) You flunked out of online enrollment.  Maybe it was League of Legends on the other monitor, Facebook on your phone, or taking care of your younger siblings because they weren't in school and you were stuck at home.  Either way, now you're a dropout.

C.) Your family's income collapsed entirely and the student loan people don't want to hear that you can't afford your intended family contribution anymore.

D.) As above, but your family needed you to pick up one or more jobs to keep the mortgage paid, so no college for you.

E.) Maybe it has nothing to do with the pandemic.  Enrollment was due to drop demographically, IIRC.  Certainly people are starting to think twice about taking on debt equivalent to a 40 year mortgage before even looking at a house...

Everybody's poorer now except people who were already ludicrously wealthy beyond dreams of avarice before all of this happened, so funny how already-unaffordable college suddenly got even more unaffordable for lots of families.  And one messed-up class year is just about all it takes to push a lot of low-endowment schools into bankruptcy...
 
4 days ago  
12 votes:
You know when graduate enrollment goes up?

There are no JOBS so they stay in school.
 
4 days ago  
8 votes:

Gin Buddy: You know when graduate enrollment goes up?

There are no JOBS so they stay in school.


You know how little grad teaching assistantships pay these days?  Probably do better with minimum wage.  I teach college and, at least at my school, undergrads are harder to enroll because scholarship money is scarce and grads get tuition waved.  But the stipend is for shiat for the grads.  Undergrads don't have jobs that pay enough and thus with tuition demands they cannot afford school.
 
4 days ago  
7 votes:

Unknown Subject: College is a racket nowadays; why would anyone in their right mind want to take on a mortgage's worth of debt so they can be forced to attend critical race theory classes....


stop paying attention right there.
 
4 days ago  
7 votes:

Ragin' Asian: One of the good things about the pandemic is people are realizing college degrees aren't necessary for jobs. One of the lousy things is there aren't any jobs. I could get a job as a check out guy at the supermarket down the street. I did that as a teenager. I have no desire to do that at 42 with skills I have to offer.


College degrees aren't necessary for jobs, just jobs* that you want.

* yeah you could apprentice too or get skills somewhere else, but if you're trying to land a quality job on the strength of a HS diploma or GED then LOL
 
4 days ago  
7 votes:
1.) People realizing that going to college during a pandemic and paying full tuition for remote learning might not be worth it and they are better off taking a gap year.
2.) ...
 
4 days ago  
7 votes:
One of the good things about the pandemic is people are realizing college degrees aren't necessary for jobs. One of the lousy things is there aren't any jobs. I could get a job as a check out guy at the supermarket down the street. I did that as a teenager. I have no desire to do that at 42 with skills I have to offer.
 
4 days ago  
5 votes:

thealgorerhythm: Ragin' Asian: One of the good things about the pandemic is people are realizing college degrees aren't necessary for jobs. One of the lousy things is there aren't any jobs. I could get a job as a check out guy at the supermarket down the street. I did that as a teenager. I have no desire to do that at 42 with skills I have to offer.

College degrees aren't necessary for jobs, just jobs* that you want.

* yeah you could apprentice too or get skills somewhere else, but if you're trying to land a quality job on the strength of a HS diploma or GED then LOL


THIS. People go to college or tech school to do what they want to do, not just what they have to do. A job that's only what you have to do is a waste of talent, of potential, and of the one and only life you have. Higher education gives you more than just the knowledge you decide to keep... it gives you options. Options are good.
 
4 days ago  
5 votes:

Ragin' Asian: the money is in the banana stand: Ragin' Asian: One of the good things about the pandemic is people are realizing college degrees aren't necessary for jobs. One of the lousy things is there aren't any jobs. I could get a job as a check out guy at the supermarket down the street. I did that as a teenager. I have no desire to do that at 42 with skills I have to offer.

There are plenty of jobs now. Across almost all industries here in Texas are hiring. We are actively looking for 4 different positions in a company of 65.

I'm a copywriter. I live in NYC, but not really shackled here. I've been trying to find employment in places including Texas. Also, Colorado, Michigan, California, New Zealand, and Australia.

I'm okay, though. I'm on ACA so I don't need to be dependent on employer health care. I get by on freelance gigs. I wouldn't complain about the stability of a full time position.


https://kimberlyclark.wd1.myworkdayjo​b​s.com/NA/5/refreshFacet/318c8bb6f55310​0021d223d9780d30be

Kimberly-Clark is looking for a full-time, remote, digital copywriter. I wonder if K-C would allow you to stay where you are and work remotely full time? It might be worth your time to look into it.

I know how hard it is to be unemployed or underemployed and have some smug lottery winner sneer that there are "plenty of jobs" especially since everyone cannot relocate for various reasons. I wish you good luck and hope you will find a great job soon.
 
4 days ago  
4 votes:

OgreMagi: thealgorerhythm: yeah you could apprentice too or get skills somewhere else, but if you're trying to land a quality job on the strength of a HS diploma or GED then LOL

In California, a plumber's apprentice starts at $35k or more (in some areas it can be $50k). You need a high school diploma or GED and be physically able to do the work.  An apprenticeship takes about 5 years, so roughly equivalent to going to college for a master's degree, except most people don't get paid to go to college.  At the end of the apprenticeship you aren't saddled with a pile of student loan debt.  Plus, your job is never going to be outsourced to China.

If you choose to instead get a useless degree in college (art history is pretty damn useless), you can expect to get paid less than an apprentice plumber when you graduate, plus have the student loan debt riding your back for the next couple of decades.

High schools need to stop pushing the lie that you are a failure if you don't go to college.  Not everyone is cut out for college and some people would be happier working in the trades instead of being an office drone.


You need to make money immediately in the skilled trades, because they take a toll on the bodies of tradespeople. If you're not in a supervisory role within a decade of your career, you won't last more than 20 years in it.
 
4 days ago  
4 votes:

the money is in the banana stand: If we think about higher education as career training,


No, this is where YOU fail. This right here. College/university isn't job training. It never was. It's THINK training. It's LEARN training. It's KNOWLEDGE training. There are quite a few college grads that are in fields they love that are barely related to their majors, but it was their majors that gave them the tools to get there.

As I said... options.
 
4 days ago  
3 votes:

Ragin' Asian: I applied for that job through ZipRecriter. JobHat, CareerBuilder, and Craigslist. When I called to follow up, they said they were reviewing thousands of applicants. Good looking out. I really mean that. Stupid internet sarcasm isn't an issue here.


Thousands of applicants . . . for ONE job opening.

Whelp. Now, I'm depressed.
 
4 days ago  
3 votes:

thealgorerhythm: yeah you could apprentice too or get skills somewhere else, but if you're trying to land a quality job on the strength of a HS diploma or GED then LOL


In California, a plumber's apprentice starts at $35k or more (in some areas it can be $50k). You need a high school diploma or GED and be physically able to do the work.  An apprenticeship takes about 5 years, so roughly equivalent to going to college for a master's degree, except most people don't get paid to go to college.  At the end of the apprenticeship you aren't saddled with a pile of student loan debt.  Plus, your job is never going to be outsourced to China.

If you choose to instead get a useless degree in college (art history is pretty damn useless), you can expect to get paid less than an apprentice plumber when you graduate, plus have the student loan debt riding your back for the next couple of decades.

High schools need to stop pushing the lie that you are a failure if you don't go to college.  Not everyone is cut out for college and some people would be happier working in the trades instead of being an office drone.
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:
Which is actually a good thing

unless you're focused on a high-level job doctor lawyer engineer Sports

that often touted 1 million more over the life of your career is just not going to happen

most likely and if it does it's not because you went to college
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:

Spermbot: OgreMagi: Ragin' Asian: I get by on freelance gigs.

Take California off your list.  Freelance work was effectively outlawed with the passage of AB5.

Which was overturned by the passage of prop. 22.


No it wasn't.  It made another loophole for uber.  It didn't do a thing for most freelance jobs.
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:

Spermbot: OgreMagi: thealgorerhythm: yeah you could apprentice too or get skills somewhere else, but if you're trying to land a quality job on the strength of a HS diploma or GED then LOL

In California, a plumber's apprentice starts at $35k or more (in some areas it can be $50k). You need a high school diploma or GED and be physically able to do the work.  An apprenticeship takes about 5 years, so roughly equivalent to going to college for a master's degree, except most people don't get paid to go to college.  At the end of the apprenticeship you aren't saddled with a pile of student loan debt.  Plus, your job is never going to be outsourced to China.

If you choose to instead get a useless degree in college (art history is pretty damn useless), you can expect to get paid less than an apprentice plumber when you graduate, plus have the student loan debt riding your back for the next couple of decades.

High schools need to stop pushing the lie that you are a failure if you don't go to college.  Not everyone is cut out for college and some people would be happier working in the trades instead of being an office drone.

You need to make money immediately in the skilled trades, because they take a toll on the bodies of tradespeople. If you're not in a supervisory role within a decade of your career, you won't last more than 20 years in it.


My grandparents were carpenters well into their 60s and not as supervisors.  They swung hammers.  Some people won't be able to last on that kind of job, no doubt.  But some people are tougher.

My grandfather was a CPA and had a heart attack while still young.  The doctor told him he would be dead within five years if he didn't get out from behind that desk.  So he and my grandmother took up the carpentry trade.  They both lived very long lives.
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:

rewind2846: OgreMagi: If you choose to instead get a useless degree in college (art history is pretty damn useless), you can expect to get paid less than an apprentice plumber when you graduate, plus have the student loan debt riding your back for the next couple of decades.

I have TWO (that's 1+1) art degrees... an AS and a BA in applied Art (Graphic Design). When i stepped into class I was earning about $45K a year. My first job after graduation started @ $57K a year. 9 years later (Class of 2012) I'm just shy of $89K/year. Indoors, my own office, AC (which REALLY helped with the 105 degree temps today!), the works. And the degrees are from a state college and CC, so... no debt in that state (CA). Pell grants. Scholarships. YMMV.

Useless? No degree is "useless". It's all about what you do with it. Any degree is useless if the person holding it does not apply themselves or didn't bother to learn anything while getting it. That's why you go, not for job training. And there are ways of going to school with little or no debt that don't involve joining the military.


An art degree is not an art history degree.  There's a hell of a lot of good paying jobs for someone with a degree in graphics art.  A degree in art history is good for a job in a museum, and there aren't a lot of those and they don't pay very much.  That means you will go for any job demanding a generic degree (but doesn't really need one).  That would be a general office drone.
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:
Idiots. How do they expect to get that that $15 an hour entry level job without spending $100k on that 4 year degree?

Kids today are so lazy
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:

OgreMagi: Ragin' Asian: I get by on freelance gigs.

Take California off your list.  Freelance work was effectively outlawed with the passage of AB5.


If you are writing more than 35 articles for the same outlet in a given year, then you are not a freelancer, you are a screwed over outsourced no-benefits employee with less-then-at-will employment.   I think Ragin'Asian can navigate California just fine.
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:

thealgorerhythm: They all tried online college in the fall and burned out.

I'll bet colleges that offer vaccinated in-person classes are gonna be overflowing this fall. They just want to go to school, get drunk, get laid, not worry about COVID.


Our incoming freshman class is usually 3500.

This fall it will be 6500.

They're coming back.
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:
I work at a college. Last year, the enrollment was larger than usual. Next year's incoming class will be the largest ever. I'm not seeing this.
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:

Ragin' Asian: One of the good things about the pandemic is people are realizing college degrees aren't necessary for jobs. One of the lousy things is there aren't any jobs. I could get a job as a check out guy at the supermarket down the street. I did that as a teenager. I have no desire to do that at 42 with skills I have to offer.


I think it's more that they're realizing you can't offer 10% above min wage for a degree and expect anyone to stay more than a few months.
 
4 days ago  
2 votes:
Someone think of the endowments! THE ENDOWMENTS!  If there are less alumni to soak for cash, we can't have as huge of a slush fund!
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:

thealgorerhythm: OgreMagi: thealgorerhythm: OgreMagi: thealgorerhythm: OgreMagi: thealgorerhythm: yeah you could apprentice too or get skills somewhere else, but if you're trying to land a quality job on the strength of a HS diploma or GED then LOL

In California, a plumber's apprentice starts at $35k or more (in some areas it can be $50k). You need a high school diploma or GED and be physically able to do the work.  An apprenticeship takes about 5 years, so roughly equivalent to going to college for a master's degree, except most people don't get paid to go to college.  At the end of the apprenticeship you aren't saddled with a pile of student loan debt.  Plus, your job is never going to be outsourced to China.

If you choose to instead get a useless degree in college (art history is pretty damn useless), you can expect to get paid less than an apprentice plumber when you graduate, plus have the student loan debt riding your back for the next couple of decades.

High schools need to stop pushing the lie that you are a failure if you don't go to college.  Not everyone is cut out for college and some people would be happier working in the trades instead of being an office drone.

Does select quoting somebody to make a straw man argument help you feel smarter?

Given the rest of your post wasn't relevant, I'm guessing my select quoting annoys you because you thought you had a lot to say, but in reality had nothing.

Sorry about your life.

Still noting relevant to say, it appears.

If you gotta come in here and release that aggression on everybody, something must have hurt you. I just want you to know that I'm sorry.


I'm still waiting for you to add something relevant.  You made a comment about apprenticeship programs and I posted information on the opportunity and pay of that kind of work.  I was not insulting you at all.  I was adding to what you said.  But for some reason you decided that simply providing information is an attack against you and so you act like a complete dickwad.  If anyone is having problems, it would be you.  Get help.
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:

dbaggins: OgreMagi: Ragin' Asian: I get by on freelance gigs.

Take California off your list.  Freelance work was effectively outlawed with the passage of AB5.

If you are writing more than 35 articles for the same outlet in a given year, then you are not a freelancer, you are a screwed over outsourced no-benefits employee with less-then-at-will employment.   I think Ragin'Asian can navigate California just fine.


They've added some loopholes to AB5, but for most freelance type jobs, you can't work at all.  Take translations.  I know someone who does this (well, did) for a living.  AB5 put her out of work.  There was no exclusion for how many documents she translates for a particular company.  With companies she had a working relationship with, she would rarely handle more than a couple of documents per year.  In the eyes of AB5, even a couple of documents a year is too much to freelance.  She needs to be a full time employee.  Except there isn't enough work in a single company to justify hiring her full time.  So now work she used to get is going to translators in other states.  She went from making a modest living translating from home, to unemployed right at the start of a pandemic.

And even for job types that have loopholes, a lot of work is going elsewhere because businesses don't want to deal with California freelance laws that keep changing.
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:

OgreMagi: If you choose to instead get a useless degree in college (art history is pretty damn useless), you can expect to get paid less than an apprentice plumber when you graduate, plus have the student loan debt riding your back for the next couple of decades.


I have TWO (that's 1+1) art degrees... an AS and a BA in applied Art (Graphic Design). When i stepped into class I was earning about $45K a year. My first job after graduation started @ $57K a year. 9 years later (Class of 2012) I'm just shy of $89K/year. Indoors, my own office, AC (which REALLY helped with the 105 degree temps today!), the works. And the degrees are from a state college and CC, so... no debt in that state (CA). Pell grants. Scholarships. YMMV.

Useless? No degree is "useless". It's all about what you do with it. Any degree is useless if the person holding it does not apply themselves or didn't bother to learn anything while getting it. That's why you go, not for job training. And there are ways of going to school with little or no debt that don't involve joining the military.
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:

OgreMagi: thealgorerhythm: yeah you could apprentice too or get skills somewhere else, but if you're trying to land a quality job on the strength of a HS diploma or GED then LOL

In California, a plumber's apprentice starts at $35k or more (in some areas it can be $50k). You need a high school diploma or GED and be physically able to do the work.  An apprenticeship takes about 5 years, so roughly equivalent to going to college for a master's degree, except most people don't get paid to go to college.  At the end of the apprenticeship you aren't saddled with a pile of student loan debt.  Plus, your job is never going to be outsourced to China.

If you choose to instead get a useless degree in college (art history is pretty damn useless), you can expect to get paid less than an apprentice plumber when you graduate, plus have the student loan debt riding your back for the next couple of decades.

High schools need to stop pushing the lie that you are a failure if you don't go to college.  Not everyone is cut out for college and some people would be happier working in the trades instead of being an office drone.


Does select quoting somebody to make a straw man argument help you feel smarter?
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:

rewind2846: thealgorerhythm: Ragin' Asian: One of the good things about the pandemic is people are realizing college degrees aren't necessary for jobs. One of the lousy things is there aren't any jobs. I could get a job as a check out guy at the supermarket down the street. I did that as a teenager. I have no desire to do that at 42 with skills I have to offer.

College degrees aren't necessary for jobs, just jobs* that you want.

* yeah you could apprentice too or get skills somewhere else, but if you're trying to land a quality job on the strength of a HS diploma or GED then LOL

THIS. People go to college or tech school to do what they want to do, not just what they have to do. A job that's only what you have to do is a waste of talent, of potential, and of the one and only life you have. Higher education gives you more than just the knowledge you decide to keep... it gives you options. Options are good.


Not always and it can be argued that core curriculum is an enormous waste of resources and time. If we think about higher education as career training, it fails dismally in almost all areas of applied knowledge and does not teach fairly fundamental principles in most all fields.
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:

thealgorerhythm: They all tried online college in the fall and burned out.

I'll bet colleges that offer vaccinated in-person classes are gonna be overflowing this fall. They just want to go to school, get drunk, get laid, not worry about COVID.


How old are you? You sound like my father and he is in his 70's. Do you really think Girls Gone Wild is an accurate depiction of college?

I didn't date at all for the last two years that I was in college. I went to class, worked, studied, slept, and got up to do it again in the morning.

Yet, thanks to the pandemic, my Zoomer kids had an even worse experience in college. Last year, they had on-line labs that consisted of watching videos. Every organic chemistry tutor in the state understandably gave up in-person tutoring. Most of their professors steadfastly refused to believe that any college student might hold a job or enroll in another class. Operating under the assumption that students had "nothing else to do," they piled on additional assignments.
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:

Gin Buddy: There are no JOBS so they stay in school.


I believe college loan payments are deferred so long as you remain in school.  But if you are unemployed and out of school, you are doubly screwed.
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:

GodComplex: Ragin' Asian: One of the good things about the pandemic is people are realizing college degrees aren't necessary for jobs. One of the lousy things is there aren't any jobs. I could get a job as a check out guy at the supermarket down the street. I did that as a teenager. I have no desire to do that at 42 with skills I have to offer.

I think it's more that they're realizing you can't offer 10% above min wage for a degree and expect anyone to stay more than a few months.


I understand that completely. The thing about me is, I'd like to think I'm a loyal guy. I don't want to take a job for $35/hr then get a job offer for $75/hr a week later and just say, "Deuces, assholes!"
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:
They all tried online college in the fall and burned out.

I'll bet colleges that offer vaccinated in-person classes are gonna be overflowing this fall. They just want to go to school, get drunk, get laid, not worry about COVID.
 
4 days ago  
1 vote:
The MOOCs are finally taking off, lol.
 
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