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(Fox Business)   Chip shortage has caused GM to remove a "feature" from some of their vehicles that actually made them worse   (foxbusiness.com) divider line
    More: Cool, General Motors, Chevrolet Silverado, GM spokesman, ongoing semiconductor chip shortage, key fuel, Internal combustion engine, Free Press, Detroit  
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1187 clicks; posted to STEM » and Main » on 09 Jun 2021 at 12:40 PM (3 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



33 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
3 days ago  
I'm dying to see that headline opinionsplained.
 
3 days ago  
Subby didn't like how the chip made it harder to roll coal...
media0.giphy.comView Full Size
 
3 days ago  

edmo: I'm dying to see that headline opinionsplained.


I'm curious how subby thinks the start-stop feature made the vehicle worse? I also wonder if subby thinks turning off cylinders, when the engine isn't under a heavy load, to save fuel is a bad idea?
 
3 days ago  
Stop/Start is an abomination.
 
3 days ago  

gwoardnog: Stop/Start is an abomination.


Isn't it something you can turn off in the menu?
 
3 days ago  
Not in some cars.  From what I understand Jeep vehicles can't be disabled without horrible things like disconnecting sensors.
 
3 days ago  

MindStalker: gwoardnog: Stop/Start is an abomination.

Isn't it something you can turn off in the menu?


Not in my 2018. Have to switch to sport mode and put it on max gear. The newer ones have buttons to switch it off, but you have to do that every time you start the freakin' car. There's a $100 plug-in thing you can buy to put in the diagnostic port, but I guess that screws with your remote-start if you have it because it sort of tricks your car into thinking your hood is open(?). That's how I understood it worked at least.
 
3 days ago  

gwoardnog: Stop/Start is an abomination.


Why?

I'm genuinely curious. The entire argument reminds me of people who thought 4 or 6 cylinder engines would never supplant 8 cylinder engines in passenger cars or light trucks. That same argument was repeated when people started saying electric vehicles could never compete with gasoline cars either in terms of speed or power.

Stop/start, like turning off unneeded cylinders, is an evolutionary item to keep petrol engines around while they keep improving electric cars. At some point the mathematics will likely flip, and buying a petrol car won't make sense.
 
3 days ago  

gwoardnog: MindStalker: gwoardnog: Stop/Start is an abomination.

Isn't it something you can turn off in the menu?

Not in my 2018. Have to switch to sport mode and put it on max gear. The newer ones have buttons to switch it off, but you have to do that every time you start the freakin' car. There's a $100 plug-in thing you can buy to put in the diagnostic port, but I guess that screws with your remote-start if you have it because it sort of tricks your car into thinking your hood is open(?). That's how I understood it worked at least.


On the Golf R, you can push a button every time you get in the car if you're in most driving modes. You can also disconnect a small item attached to the battery. However doing that will generate a fault (which is why stop/start ceases to work) that you have to see while driving. However if you turn on race mode in the Golf R, it will disable the stop/start feature.

How To Turn Off STOP START
Youtube 9-SpgdJJ0CA
 
3 days ago  

inglixthemad: gwoardnog: Stop/Start is an abomination.

Why?

I'm genuinely curious. The entire argument reminds me of people who thought 4 or 6 cylinder engines would never supplant 8 cylinder engines in passenger cars or light trucks. That same argument was repeated when people started saying electric vehicles could never compete with gasoline cars either in terms of speed or power.

Stop/start, like turning off unneeded cylinders, is an evolutionary item to keep petrol engines around while they keep improving electric cars. At some point the mathematics will likely flip, and buying a petrol car won't make sense.


I think I can sum up the argument quickly.
New bad. Old good. Hrumph. (this last part is crucial to the point).
 
3 days ago  

inglixthemad: edmo: I'm dying to see that headline opinionsplained.

I'm curious how subby thinks the start-stop feature made the vehicle worse? I also wonder if subby thinks turning off cylinders, when the engine isn't under a heavy load, to save fuel is a bad idea?


I'm not subby but it is silly to stop and start a traditional engine in this manner. It takes time to spin up the RPM, you have to deal with a large current draw to the starter motor while it's cranking, and you lose power to belt-driven accessories like an air conditioning compressor while the engine is stopped.

It does make perfect sense in a hybrid. Instead of sending 12V at a silly number of amps into a starter motor bolted on the side, you feed high voltage into the main motor/generator which is connected to the crankshaft. Meanwhile the battery pack is also feeding power to the wheels so that you can start driving away while this is going on, and the rest of the car systems continue to operate uninterrupted.
 
3 days ago  

inglixthemad: gwoardnog: Stop/Start is an abomination.

Why?

I'm genuinely curious. The entire argument reminds me of people who thought 4 or 6 cylinder engines would never supplant 8 cylinder engines in passenger cars or light trucks. That same argument was repeated when people started saying electric vehicles could never compete with gasoline cars either in terms of speed or power.

Stop/start, like turning off unneeded cylinders, is an evolutionary item to keep petrol engines around while they keep improving electric cars. At some point the mathematics will likely flip, and buying a petrol car won't make sense.


In suburban light traffic, where you drive up to a stoplight, wait a minute, and drive on, it's fine.  In heavy stop-and-go traffic, it's obnoxious.
 
3 days ago  
"A GM spokesman told The Detroit Free Press that the change would result in a 1 to 2 mpg drop in the combined fuel economy rating for the trucks and that the price would be reduced by $50."

However, if you DO have a chip already, and it burns out, be prepared for it to cost $800 to replace it, plus the cost of installing and programming it.
 
2 days ago  

inglixthemad: edmo: I'm dying to see that headline opinionsplained.

I'm curious how subby thinks the start-stop feature made the vehicle worse? I also wonder if subby thinks turning off cylinders, when the engine isn't under a heavy load, to save fuel is a bad idea?


Because people hate money and the environment?
 
2 days ago  

Ivo Shandor: I'm not subby but it is silly to stop and start a traditional engine in this manner. It takes time to spin up the RPM, you have to deal with a large current draw to the starter motor while it's cranking, and you lose power to belt-driven accessories like an air conditioning compressor while the engine is stopped.


That is why there is a chip. TO figure out if it makes sense to start\stop. In both my cars they disable it if its say, 90 out, i just turned the car on, and i have the ac cranked. Likewise if it thinks your climate control is going to dip above\below a certain threshold, it won't turn you off. Same as if you are in stop and go traffic, etc, where the 1/2 second or so of lag will start getting noticable, and while i'm not positive, whomever designed it would be a moron if they didn't design the charging system and checking battery levels before making the call to stop the engine.

Both have a simple button on the dash, and i'm willing to bet a voice command, to disable it if you are in some in between scenario and don't want to deal with it. My jeep is even smart enough that i have noticed that it never seems to engage if i'm towing something.

Do I LIKE start\stop? No, but if i'm getting an extra 1-2mpg out of something that gets low 20s in mpg's i'll deal with it.
 
2 days ago  

inglixthemad: I'm curious how subby thinks the start-stop feature made the vehicle worse? I also wonder if subby thinks turning off cylinders, when the engine isn't under a heavy load, to save fuel is a bad idea?


Do you drive a turbocharged vehicle? If so, you want a steady stream of oil (and likely coolant) flowing through the turbocharger to keep the bearings lubricated from wear and to constantly remove heat. The more you shut it down and start it up, the more wear you put on the turbocharger bearings.
 
2 days ago  

Jclark666: In suburban light traffic, where you drive up to a stoplight, wait a minute, and drive on, it's fine.  In heavy stop-and-go traffic, it's obnoxious.


as i mentioned before, both of my cars seem perfectly capable of quickly realizing on their own, "hey, dude is stopping, then moving 4 feet, then stopping again. Probably should lay off the start\stop".

In fact i'd be surprised on higher end cars if at this point they weren't feeding the chip with GPS\Traffic data to aid in making the call.
 
2 days ago  

Ivo Shandor: It takes time to spin up the RPM


Negligible time is involved.

you have to deal with a large current draw to the starter motor while it's cranking

This is also not a problem. Starters are far more reliable than they have ever been before.

you lose power to belt-driven accessories like an air conditioning compressor while the engine is stopped

Most vehicles disable the stop/start system if the AC is running.
 
2 days ago  
Engines with GM's implementation of displacement on demand / AFM / whatever you want to call it are known to be less reliable than their otherwise identical counterparts without that technology.  I'm not here to argue the benefit to efficiency or the environment but from a strictly mechanical standpoint, it does make their vehicles worse to be equipped with it.  Same with EGR, AIR injection, and all the DPF/DEF stuff on modern diesels.

Not saying these technologies don't have their benefits but they're hell on the engines.
 
2 days ago  

mrmopar5287: Ivo Shandor: It takes time to spin up the RPM

Negligible time is involved.

you have to deal with a large current draw to the starter motor while it's cranking

This is also not a problem. Starters are far more reliable than they have ever been before.

you lose power to belt-driven accessories like an air conditioning compressor while the engine is stopped

Most vehicles disable the stop/start system if the AC is running.


To add, my vehicle has Start/Stop and it's aware of where in the cycle the motor was stopped and can time things so that it doesn't have to rely purely on the starter.  It can fire the right cylinder and help get it going.  It doesn't seem to be so smart as to know this guy is in stop and go traffic so it's annoying more times than not.
 
2 days ago  

Ivo Shandor: I'm not subby but it is silly to stop and start a traditional engine in this manner. It takes time to spin up the RPM, you have to deal with a large current draw to the starter motor while it's cranking, and you lose power to belt-driven accessories like an air conditioning compressor while the engine is stopped.


1) Most engines have little or no time to get up to RPM. We're talking a thousand RPM on average for most engines. This isn't the 1960's.

2) This is more valid, and it's why all cars (that I know of) monitor the battery. However since the engine has to be "warmed up" it usually isn't an issue. Stop/start systems won't engage if the engine (and sometimes the outside temperature) is too cold. They'll also disengage if the batter power is too low, hence why that HumbleMechanic video has you disabling stop/start by pulling the sensor wire.

3) On many cars, my Golf R included, they continue running things like the AC and if the temperature becomes unstable (goes too far up or too far down) it starts the car.
 
2 days ago  

Jclark666: inglixthemad: gwoardnog: Stop/Start is an abomination.

Why?

I'm genuinely curious. The entire argument reminds me of people who thought 4 or 6 cylinder engines would never supplant 8 cylinder engines in passenger cars or light trucks. That same argument was repeated when people started saying electric vehicles could never compete with gasoline cars either in terms of speed or power.

Stop/start, like turning off unneeded cylinders, is an evolutionary item to keep petrol engines around while they keep improving electric cars. At some point the mathematics will likely flip, and buying a petrol car won't make sense.

In suburban light traffic, where you drive up to a stoplight, wait a minute, and drive on, it's fine.  In heavy stop-and-go traffic, it's obnoxious.


The systems won't constantly engage / disengage in traffic like that, at least non I've used. In stop and go traffic you see (on VW's) the system turn itself off. Although if you know you're in stop and go traffic you know to not push the pedal to the floor. To get stop/start to engage in many cars takes pushing the pedal to the limit, not just to where the car stops. I didn't realize that until I tried a few cars with the feature.
 
2 days ago  

mrmopar5287: Do you drive a turbocharged vehicle? If so, you want a steady stream of oil (and likely coolant) flowing through the turbocharger to keep the bearings lubricated from wear and to constantly remove heat. The more you shut it down and start it up, the more wear you put on the turbocharger bearings.


Most turbocharged cars nowadays aren't running full boost, full time. Most have an automatic upper deck pressure controller and, depending on load, effectively bypass the turbo unless it needs the horsepower. Computers are great things, I wish he had them in airplane engines sometimes. So unless you are "hard charging, racing, whatever term you want to use for mashing the accelerator to get that thing going at full rated horsepower, it probably isn't providing much boost and your turbo is running cool.

However if you do put the hammer down, and get things hot, then the auto stop/start won't engage. Think of it this way, there's a reason many turbocharged cars can have shorter oil change intervals, and keep the cooling fan running after turning the car off. Yeah, that's to deal with a heat soaked turbo. Oh and you would worry more about coking the bearings with burnt oil if the turbo was hot. When the oil is "still" it can burn and leave deposits behind.
 
2 days ago  
With the amount of shiat that my car has been recalled for, I'd just rather the engine keep on. I'm sure it's mechanically/mathematically better. But I drive a lot and all the recalls keep coming in 9 months after I trade it off. Plus my foot goes from brake to gas faster than it starts so that's annoying (I'm not a speed demon or anything either).
 
2 days ago  
Good.

I bought my Subaru cause it's dumb.

I drove a Ford in Alaska in February a couple years ago, when I was there for a job.

New Ford, 13 miles on it. 2nd day there I roll up to a stop light, the engine turned off as Intended. Light turns green and I guess it was so cold the truck tried to start back up.... only it didn't.

After that I do not not trust this "feature".
 
2 days ago  

inglixthemad: Most turbocharged cars nowadays aren't running full boost, full time. Most have an automatic upper deck pressure controller and, depending on load, effectively bypass the turbo unless it needs the horsepower.


It's a Diesel, peaking at 27 psi. It is almost always in boost for emissions control (soot reduction through clean combustion with lots of air).
 
2 days ago  

inglixthemad: edmo: I'm dying to see that headline opinionsplained.

I'm curious how subby thinks the start-stop feature made the vehicle worse? I also wonder if subby thinks turning off cylinders, when the engine isn't under a heavy load, to save fuel is a bad idea?


As for start/stop, not interested without at least a 10 year warranty on the starter. Test drove a Buick with the feature and did not like it. YMMV. As to disabling cylinders, look up worst engines ever. It sounds good, but in practice it just means you will be replacing that engine sooner, rather than later. A friends father had a Northstar V8-6-4 in his Cadillac. Seemed underwhelming until it needed a new engine. I doubt GM has a better handle on the technology today.
 
2 days ago  

Al Tsheimers: As for start/stop, not interested without at least a 10 year warranty on the starter.


No kidding. The starters on some cars (like mine) are hard to replace. It's on the back of the engine, and I bet the intake manifold and EGR cooler has to come off to replace it from the top. Don't know about getting it out the bottom. The EGR cooler means draining the coolant so at least you get a coolant change out of the deal if it needs it. I can easily see a new starter being a $1,000 repair.

My car is a manual transmission so the stop/start is disabled from where it comes on all the automatic transmission cars.
 
2 days ago  

mrmopar5287: Al Tsheimers: As for start/stop, not interested without at least a 10 year warranty on the starter.

No kidding. The starters on some cars (like mine) are hard to replace. It's on the back of the engine, and I bet the intake manifold and EGR cooler has to come off to replace it from the top. Don't know about getting it out the bottom. The EGR cooler means draining the coolant so at least you get a coolant change out of the deal if it needs it. I can easily see a new starter being a $1,000 repair.

My car is a manual transmission so the stop/start is disabled from where it comes on all the automatic transmission cars.


I have replaced more starters than I care to remember, on mine and the kids cars. Some weren't too bad, but a couple of them were real PITA. I haven't had to do it on a newish vehicle, but now that I'm a lot older and fatter, I have become allergic to my garage floor.
 
2 days ago  

Al Tsheimers: mrmopar5287: Al Tsheimers: As for start/stop, not interested without at least a 10 year warranty on the starter.

No kidding. The starters on some cars (like mine) are hard to replace. It's on the back of the engine, and I bet the intake manifold and EGR cooler has to come off to replace it from the top. Don't know about getting it out the bottom. The EGR cooler means draining the coolant so at least you get a coolant change out of the deal if it needs it. I can easily see a new starter being a $1,000 repair.

My car is a manual transmission so the stop/start is disabled from where it comes on all the automatic transmission cars.

I have replaced more starters than I care to remember, on mine and the kids cars. Some weren't too bad, but a couple of them were real PITA. I haven't had to do it on a newish vehicle, but now that I'm a lot older and fatter, I have become allergic to my garage floor.


When a new starter for my Ram pickup was $75 and a socket wrench could do the job, I didn't care. Same for my Olds Cutlass Supreme (and I did probably six alternators in that car over 320,000 miles).

Now that it's hard to do and more expensive, I'm not interested at all.
 
2 days ago  

damndirtyape: To add, my vehicle has Start/Stop and it's aware of where in the cycle the motor was stopped and can time things so that it doesn't have to rely purely on the starter. It can fire the right cylinder and help get it going.


Yes, with gasoline direct injection you can start the engine without using the starter. One piston usually stops after TDC and is partially on the power stroke. To start the engine the fuel injector squirts a little gasoline into that cylinder, the spark plug fires, and the engine is almost instantly at idle speed and can immediately accelerate away from the stop.
 
1 day ago  

Al Tsheimers: As for start/stop, not interested without at least a 10 year warranty on the starter. Test drove a Buick with the feature and did not like it. YMMV.


Try a European car I guess. I've been driving them on / off (no pun intended) for a long time now since I spend a lot of time in Europe as well, YMMV. I will say I've never had an issue in the few American cars I drove with that feature.

Al Tsheimers: As to disabling cylinders, look up worst engines ever. It sounds good, but in practice it just means you will be replacing that engine sooner, rather than later. A friends father had a Northstar V8-6-4 in his Cadillac. Seemed underwhelming until it needed a new engine. I doubt GM has a better handle on the technology today.


I don't know, my friend has had his since about 2008? Not 100% sure since it's not my vehicle. He did have to get a new engine two years ago, but that's because the oil change place didn't put oil plug in right and it popped on the highway at 80MPH while his kid was pulling a fifth wheel horse trailer. Totaled the engine, obviously, but before that no issues.
 
1 day ago  

mrmopar5287: inglixthemad: Most turbocharged cars nowadays aren't running full boost, full time. Most have an automatic upper deck pressure controller and, depending on load, effectively bypass the turbo unless it needs the horsepower.

It's a Diesel, peaking at 27 psi. It is almost always in boost for emissions control (soot reduction through clean combustion with lots of air).


Ahh, the good 'ol turbodiesels. Yeah, you're always going to burn the oil in that turbo. I think HumbleMechanic has taken apart the VW diesel, and a couple guys have done the truck turbos for GM and Ford. All of them show the same thing: that a diesel turbo that should be cleaned up every 30-40 thousand miles if you're a city driver. City drivers tend to idle a lot and that makes that oil burn in the turbo, causing sticky vanes and bearings.
 
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