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(Marketwatch)   Did you happen to notice an article about how the rich pay almost no taxes? Well, then you're going to need to come with us to the re-education camp, my friend. It's nice, we have arts & crafts   (marketwatch.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Tax, Internal Revenue Service, Taxation in the United States, Taxation, Income tax in the United States, investigative news site ProPublica, Warren Buffett, tax agency's commissioner  
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1384 clicks; posted to Business » and Main » on 08 Jun 2021 at 4:35 PM (7 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



36 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-06-08 4:14:43 PM  
Kinda like Reality Winner et al, the leaks are always punished more harshly than the crimes.

Now, if you can keep a secret like the guys who killed Epstein....
 
2021-06-08 4:39:32 PM  

puffy999: Kinda like Reality Winner et al, the leaks are always punished more harshly than the crimes.

Now, if you can keep a secret like the guys who killed Epstein....


There is nothing to suggest Bezos and Musk broke any laws.

More likely, the rich had the tax laws crafted to protect them from having to pay anything.
 
2021-06-08 5:06:43 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: puffy999: Kinda like Reality Winner et al, the leaks are always punished more harshly than the crimes.

Now, if you can keep a secret like the guys who killed Epstein....

There is nothing to suggest Bezos and Musk broke any laws.

More likely, the rich had the tax laws crafted to protect them from having to pay anything.


Yeah, the fact they did not break any law is what makes it truly scandalous.
 
Juc
2021-06-08 5:07:05 PM  
the rich guys not paying taxes should be a crime, but probably isn't.
 
2021-06-08 5:18:35 PM  
We need to completely redo our tax code. Capital gains should be taxed as regular income.  Most deductions that don't benefit those making under $50k should be eliminated. The IRS should prioritize hunting down offshore accounts for the main purpose of tax avoidance.
I might as well ask for a unicorn while I'm at it.
 
2021-06-08 5:21:04 PM  

Catlenfell: We need to completely redo our tax code. Capital gains should be taxed as regular income.  Most deductions that don't benefit those making under $50k should be eliminated. The IRS should prioritize hunting down offshore accounts for the main purpose of tax avoidance.
I might as well ask for a unicorn while I'm at it.


They should, but people keep electing Republicans so obviously not everyone wants them to

Yes, yes eveyone, I know. "dEmOcrats R baD TwO"
 
2021-06-08 5:21:50 PM  
Releasing people's tax returns for non-official business is a serious crime.  If they track down the leaker they are going to prison for several years.

/ProPublica is in the clear unless it knew about this ahead of time or actively was involved in getting the documents
//IE, a reporter can't ask a source to break the law, but can accept illegal documents if offered by a source
 
2021-06-08 5:22:58 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: puffy999: Kinda like Reality Winner et al, the leaks are always punished more harshly than the crimes.

Now, if you can keep a secret like the guys who killed Epstein....

There is nothing to suggest Bezos and Musk broke any laws.

More likely, the rich had the tax laws crafted to protect them from having to pay anything.


Many of those laws pre-date those two, but they are among the most aggressive users.
 
2021-06-08 5:26:58 PM  
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." ~ Frederic Bastiat
 
2021-06-08 5:51:23 PM  
how about using that time and money to catch tax cheats insead.
 
2021-06-08 5:57:16 PM  

Geotpf: Releasing people's tax returns for non-official business is a serious crime.  If they track down the leaker they are going to prison for several years.

/ProPublica is in the clear unless it knew about this ahead of time or actively was involved in getting the documents
//IE, a reporter can't ask a source to break the law, but can accept illegal documents if offered by a source


Tax returns should be public, like they are in Finland. The only reason they're private is to protect the rich and prevent workers from agitating for better salaries.
 
2021-06-08 5:59:15 PM  
Most of the wealth* these people have is unrealized gains.  That's tax talk for "if you haven't sold it, the gain is imaginary".   Musk has very little income, period.  Tesla does not pay any dividends, so holding 22% of the stock makes him wealthy, but not high income. Ditto SpaceX, ditto The Boring Company.  IIRC the two years he paid taxes where years he sold his houses.

*About the only wealth tax in the USA is real estate taxes, and those get adjusted annually, almost always upward.

A Wealth tax makes sense, therefor the GQP is 100% against it.
 
2021-06-08 6:11:22 PM  

Catlenfell: We need to completely redo our tax code. Capital gains should be taxed as regular income.  Most deductions that don't benefit those making under $50k should be eliminated. The IRS should prioritize hunting down offshore accounts for the main purpose of tax avoidance.
I might as well ask for a unicorn while I'm at it.


Unfortunately, even that doesn't really help the situation.  Because when we talk about rich people, we're talking about their wealth, not their income.

Musk isn't paid a lot -  he just owns some businesses that are worth a lot.  If the stock price doubles, Musk is now twice as wealthy, but he hasn't had any income.  Stuff he owns is just sorta, worth more.  If the stock crashes and the business fails, he loses all his wealth.


If own a house and have some money saved up and have a net worth of $500,000 - and have an income in the $100,000 range - I'm being taxed yearly on income equaling around 1/5 of my net worth.

We should definitely futz with capital gains rates - but the wealthy are just never going to be moving around enough of their wealth and realizing their gains to make it feel fair.  Bezos doesn't sell $40 billion worth of stock every year.  The amount of income tax he pays is always going to seem too small relative to his net worth.
 
2021-06-08 6:30:14 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: puffy999: Kinda like Reality Winner et al, the leaks are always punished more harshly than the crimes.

Now, if you can keep a secret like the guys who killed Epstein....

There is nothing to suggest Bezos and Musk broke any laws.

More likely, the rich had the tax laws crafted to protect them from having to pay anything.


Nothing of the like.  Propublica had to use unrealized gains to get to their numbers.  The US doesnt tax unrealized gains.  Never has.
 
7 days ago  

natazha: Most of the wealth* these people have is unrealized gains.  That's tax talk for "if you haven't sold it, the gain is imaginary".   Musk has very little income, period.  Tesla does not pay any dividends, so holding 22% of the stock makes him wealthy, but not high income. Ditto SpaceX, ditto The Boring Company.  IIRC the two years he paid taxes where years he sold his houses.

*About the only wealth tax in the USA is real estate taxes, and those get adjusted annually, almost always upward.

A Wealth tax makes sense, therefor the GQP is 100% against it.


I know how this game works for people like Musk. They just find ways to shove it through the company.

"Man, I really want to go to Disney World"

Next year

"our user conference is at Disney World "
 
7 days ago  
i.ytimg.comView Full Size
 
6 days ago  

Catlenfell: We need to completely redo our tax code. Capital gains should be taxed as regular income.  Most deductions that don't benefit those making under $50k should be eliminated. The IRS should prioritize hunting down offshore accounts for the main purpose of tax avoidance.
I might as well ask for a unicorn while I'm at it.


Tax policy is a good way to steer investments toward beneficial goals.  Like getting a deduction for using more clean energy or building plants in disadvantaged areas.

We just need more transparency and better oversight and punishment of corruption.

Agree that anyone in the bottom 30% should not be paying any tax.
 
6 days ago  

adamatari: Geotpf: Releasing people's tax returns for non-official business is a serious crime.  If they track down the leaker they are going to prison for several years.

/ProPublica is in the clear unless it knew about this ahead of time or actively was involved in getting the documents
//IE, a reporter can't ask a source to break the law, but can accept illegal documents if offered by a source

Tax returns should be public, like they are in Finland. The only reason they're private is to protect the rich and prevent workers from agitating for better salaries.


Sort of public, anyway. The basics are public. After that, you can ask to see more detailed records and the government will say yes, long as your identity as the person sniffing around becomes known to the person being sniffed.
 
6 days ago  
To Warrens defense he did a whole 60 minutes (or cnn I forgot) segment outlining this very issue. He said he was paying low 20% taxes mainly because of the screwed up capital gains laws while is secretary was paying low 30%.
 
6 days ago  
The biggest problem is that the rich can typically choose how they get paid. Tax income? They'll have the company they own  or run pay them in stock and then borrow against it to show no income. Tax stock? They'll find another dodge. Or rather their accountants and tax attorneys will. Because it's worth it to have a whole team figuring out what your best option is when the numbers are big and you can choose how to run the game. If you're just getting a paycheck it will never matter how big it is, you'll never get as good of a deal as the folks who can choose how they get paid.
 
6 days ago  

puffy999: Kinda like Reality Winner et al, the leaks are always punished more harshly than the crimes.

Now, if you can keep a secret like the guys who killed Epstein....


What crimes?  Taxes on wealth have been in steep decline for 40 years now.  There were even big tax breaks in the covid relief bill in 2020 on top of that.  Your average 1%er got $25 million in 2020 covid relief, which included unlimited depreciation of investment properties.
The IRS is woefully understaffed as well, and can't perform it's duty to collect all lawfully owed taxes.  Heck, they have been going after Donald Trump for years.  He's running out the clock BTW, there is a fixed number of years for them to convict you of tax evasion.  And chief justice Roberts committed obstruction of justice for him to do so.
 
6 days ago  
The uber-rich paid little or no taxes.  The crime is that what they did was not a crime. As an aside, when will someone leak Trump's tax returns?
 
6 days ago  

cefm: The biggest problem is that the rich can typically choose how they get paid. Tax income? They'll have the company they own  or run pay them in stock and then borrow against it to show no income. Tax stock? They'll find another dodge. Or rather their accountants and tax attorneys will. Because it's worth it to have a whole team figuring out what your best option is when the numbers are big and you can choose how to run the game. If you're just getting a paycheck it will never matter how big it is, you'll never get as good of a deal as the folks who can choose how they get paid.


You're close.

The reason why the rich can do that is because they are Capital. They report their own income taxes. Labor does not.

If you are Labor (ie: make money by working for hourly wage, salary, etc.), then the person who reports your income to the government is your employer. But if you are Capital (ie: make money by owning a business or asset speculation), then the person who reports your income to the government is you.

So in this honor system known as income tax collection, Capital gets to report the income of Labor, and Capital also gets to report the income of Capital. Take a wild guess who cheats the income tax system more.

You can tax the wealthy at any rate you want, it won't make a difference if you cannot collect those taxes, nor enforce the laws that penalize those who cheat on them.

Something like up to a trillion in tax revenue per year is not collected by the IRS because there quite simply isn't anyone in the agency to do it. The Republicans have been slashing funding, regulations, salaries, and jobs from the IRS for over a decade. It's now way too small and way too ill-equipped to audit or process anyone. Today income taxes pretty much run on the honor system.

And ever since the financial crisis of 2008 we have been living in a golden age of financial crime. Because there are no repercussions or consequences for what they did, since everything is legal. And they are quite prepared to do it again. And they will get away with it.
 
6 days ago  

Ishkur: cefm: The biggest problem is that the rich can typically choose how they get paid. Tax income? They'll have the company they own  or run pay them in stock and then borrow against it to show no income. Tax stock? They'll find another dodge. Or rather their accountants and tax attorneys will. Because it's worth it to have a whole team figuring out what your best option is when the numbers are big and you can choose how to run the game. If you're just getting a paycheck it will never matter how big it is, you'll never get as good of a deal as the folks who can choose how they get paid.

You're close.

The reason why the rich can do that is because they are Capital. They report their own income taxes. Labor does not.

If you are Labor (ie: make money by working for hourly wage, salary, etc.), then the person who reports your income to the government is your employer. But if you are Capital (ie: make money by owning a business or asset speculation), then the person who reports your income to the government is you.

So in this honor system known as income tax collection, Capital gets to report the income of Labor, and Capital also gets to report the income of Capital. Take a wild guess who cheats the income tax system more.

You can tax the wealthy at any rate you want, it won't make a difference if you cannot collect those taxes, nor enforce the laws that penalize those who cheat on them.

Something like up to a trillion in tax revenue per year is not collected by the IRS because there quite simply isn't anyone in the agency to do it. The Republicans have been slashing funding, regulations, salaries, and jobs from the IRS for over a decade. It's now way too small and way too ill-equipped to audit or process anyone. Today income taxes pretty much run on the honor system.

And ever since the financial crisis of 2008 we have been living in a golden age of financial crime. Because there are no repercussions or consequences for what they did, since everything is legal. And they are quite prepared to do it again. And they will get away with it.


And this is why up until the past 5 years consultants and contractors have done b2b contracts using their s-Corp as their own business. I don't have to pay SS when I declare distributions from an S-Corp and I can also take the money as shares of a company.

There was talk about disallowing single employee s-corps but I don't know what happened.
 
6 days ago  
This whole discussion is dumb and the thread from the other day was a shiatshow.

The real question here is what do we do, if anything, about unrealized capital gains.
 
6 days ago  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: puffy999: Kinda like Reality Winner et al, the leaks are always punished more harshly than the crimes.

Now, if you can keep a secret like the guys who killed Epstein....

There is nothing to suggest Bezos and Musk broke any laws.

More likely, the rich had the tax laws crafted to protect them from having to pay anything.


that's the trick

make the laws in Washington fit your narrative so that it'll show you are following the law by not paying any taxes.

it's so cool!

lazy sit at home company stock owners kinda' like it. their quarterly Precious goes up.
 
6 days ago  

Ishkur: cefm: The biggest problem is that the rich can typically choose how they get paid. Tax income? They'll have the company they own  or run pay them in stock and then borrow against it to show no income. Tax stock? They'll find another dodge. Or rather their accountants and tax attorneys will. Because it's worth it to have a whole team figuring out what your best option is when the numbers are big and you can choose how to run the game. If you're just getting a paycheck it will never matter how big it is, you'll never get as good of a deal as the folks who can choose how they get paid.

You're close.

The reason why the rich can do that is because they are Capital. They report their own income taxes. Labor does not.

If you are Labor (ie: make money by working for hourly wage, salary, etc.), then the person who reports your income to the government is your employer. But if you are Capital (ie: make money by owning a business or asset speculation), then the person who reports your income to the government is you.

So in this honor system known as income tax collection, Capital gets to report the income of Labor, and Capital also gets to report the income of Capital. Take a wild guess who cheats the income tax system more.

You can tax the wealthy at any rate you want, it won't make a difference if you cannot collect those taxes, nor enforce the laws that penalize those who cheat on them.

Something like up to a trillion in tax revenue per year is not collected by the IRS because there quite simply isn't anyone in the agency to do it. The Republicans have been slashing funding, regulations, salaries, and jobs from the IRS for over a decade. It's now way too small and way too ill-equipped to audit or process anyone. Today income taxes pretty much run on the honor system.

And ever since the financial crisis of 2008 we have been living in a golden age of financial crime. Because there are no repercussions or consequences for what they did, since everything is legal. And th ...


if you want to get rid of something in the government, you defund it.  people will biatch that it doesn't work and it'll go away.

oldest trick in the book.

that is why big business and the wealthy send all those deep pocket lobbyists to washington.  to get the laws they want at everyone else's expense.
 
6 days ago  

Likwit: This whole discussion is dumb and the thread from the other day was a shiatshow.

The real question here is what do we do, if anything, about unrealized capital gains.


yea, too much tied up in Capital.  currency is like water, it is supposed to flow.  when it doesn't it stagnates and smells like shiat.
 
6 days ago  

runwiz: The uber-rich paid little or no taxes.  The crime is that what they did was not a crime. As an aside, when will someone leak Trump's tax returns?


it helps when you can send deep pocket lobbyists to capital hill to write the laws to suit yourself at everyone else's expense.

they call that Democracy.  and the "insurrectionists" on january 6 were trying to overthrow democracy or some shiat like that.

according to the News Actors on TV.
 
6 days ago  

runwiz: As an aside, when will someone leak Trump's tax returns?


A year or so ago.
 
6 days ago  

Likwit: This whole discussion is dumb and the thread from the other day was a shiatshow.

The real question here is what do we do, if anything, about unrealized capital gains.


Every now and then someone will propose a "Mark to Market" scheme to correct this, but I haven't seen anything past a white paper on this in 20 years. It runs into serious GAAP and other bookkeeping issues and corporate finances are opaque enough already.
 
6 days ago  

cefm: The biggest problem is that the rich can typically choose how they get paid. Tax income? They'll have the company they own  or run pay them in stock and then borrow against it to show no income. Tax stock? They'll find another dodge. Or rather their accountants and tax attorneys will. Because it's worth it to have a whole team figuring out what your best option is when the numbers are big and you can choose how to run the game. If you're just getting a paycheck it will never matter how big it is, you'll never get as good of a deal as the folks who can choose how they get paid.


I negotiated with my boss to get my wages paid as livestock instead of fake "fiat money." I bring home 2 chickens and a duck every two weeks.

SUCK IT, IRS REVENUERS
 
6 days ago  

Intrepid00: natazha: Most of the wealth* these people have is unrealized gains.  That's tax talk for "if you haven't sold it, the gain is imaginary".   Musk has very little income, period.  Tesla does not pay any dividends, so holding 22% of the stock makes him wealthy, but not high income. Ditto SpaceX, ditto The Boring Company.  IIRC the two years he paid taxes where years he sold his houses.

*About the only wealth tax in the USA is real estate taxes, and those get adjusted annually, almost always upward.

A Wealth tax makes sense, therefor the GQP is 100% against it.

I know how this game works for people like Musk. They just find ways to shove it through the company.

"Man, I really want to go to Disney World"

Next year

"our user conference is at Disney World "


I gifted my 3 year old 3% of my company stock which I will control in a trust until they are 35.

This trip to Disney World with my kid is now a shareholder meeting.  Agenda includes potential stock fall on Splash Mountain, rocket division performance review on space mountain...
 
6 days ago  

Ishkur: cefm: The biggest problem is that the rich can typically choose how they get paid. Tax income? They'll have the company they own  or run pay them in stock and then borrow against it to show no income. Tax stock? They'll find another dodge. Or rather their accountants and tax attorneys will. Because it's worth it to have a whole team figuring out what your best option is when the numbers are big and you can choose how to run the game. If you're just getting a paycheck it will never matter how big it is, you'll never get as good of a deal as the folks who can choose how they get paid.

You're close.

The reason why the rich can do that is because they are Capital. They report their own income taxes. Labor does not.

If you are Labor (ie: make money by working for hourly wage, salary, etc.), then the person who reports your income to the government is your employer. But if you are Capital (ie: make money by owning a business or asset speculation), then the person who reports your income to the government is you.

So in this honor system known as income tax collection, Capital gets to report the income of Labor, and Capital also gets to report the income of Capital. Take a wild guess who cheats the income tax system more.

You can tax the wealthy at any rate you want, it won't make a difference if you cannot collect those taxes, nor enforce the laws that penalize those who cheat on them.

Something like up to a trillion in tax revenue per year is not collected by the IRS because there quite simply isn't anyone in the agency to do it. The Republicans have been slashing funding, regulations, salaries, and jobs from the IRS for over a decade. It's now way too small and way too ill-equipped to audit or process anyone. Today income taxes pretty much run on the honor system.

And ever since the financial crisis of 2008 we have been living in a golden age of financial crime. Because there are no repercussions or consequences for what they did, since everything is legal. And they are quite prepared to do it again. And they will get away with it.


Defund the Tax Police
 
6 days ago  

Tax Boy: SUCK IT, IRS REVENUERS


Username checks out?
 
6 days ago  

Tax Boy: cefm: The biggest problem is that the rich can typically choose how they get paid. Tax income? They'll have the company they own  or run pay them in stock and then borrow against it to show no income. Tax stock? They'll find another dodge. Or rather their accountants and tax attorneys will. Because it's worth it to have a whole team figuring out what your best option is when the numbers are big and you can choose how to run the game. If you're just getting a paycheck it will never matter how big it is, you'll never get as good of a deal as the folks who can choose how they get paid.

I negotiated with my boss to get my wages paid as livestock instead of fake "fiat money." I bring home 2 chickens and a duck every two weeks.

SUCK IT, IRS REVENUERS


That's still income, and you know it.
 
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