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(Vox)   Do you have an Amazon Echo, Tile, or Ring doorbell camera? Congratulations, unless you opt out, tomorrow you're going to start sharing up to 500 MB of your monthly data with your neighbors and grant them an open public access point on your network   (vox.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Turn, Amazon, Opt-out, The Network, Amazon's new Sidewalk service, Default, Opt out, Data  
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981 clicks; posted to STEM » and Main » on 07 Jun 2021 at 2:59 PM (9 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-06-07 1:55:43 PM  
White Hats need to mount up and close this vulnerability for the clueless majority.
 
2021-06-07 2:09:55 PM  
The Internet of Things continues to be a stupid concept.

Also, would it seriously kill any of you tech companies to invest a modicum of basic cybersecurity to you products? F*cking dangerously stupid vultures
 
2021-06-07 2:35:44 PM  

somedude210: The Internet of Things continues to be a stupid concept.

Also, would it seriously kill any of you tech companies to invest a modicum of basic cybersecurity to you products? F*cking dangerously stupid vultures


I totally love my voice operated lights. I farking hate that they've designed them to only work in such a manner with something online. I can operate them fine from just the wifi via an app... The problem has been shifting the computing part of voice recognition to make the product cheaper...
 
2021-06-07 2:49:47 PM  
This the same data that the police already have access too?
 
2021-06-07 2:51:35 PM  
One more farking thing to have to shovel...

Thanks but no thanks. Some things should remain forever dumb, like toasters and the neighbor's kid.
 
Juc
2021-06-07 3:01:52 PM  
well this is pretty farked up. still. I mean ti's like the 10th thread about it, and it's still pretty farked up.
 
2021-06-07 3:04:47 PM  
How the hell is this allowed to be an automatic opt-in?
 
2021-06-07 3:10:00 PM  

I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: White Hats need to mount up and close this vulnerability for the clueless majority.


So, they need to hack people's devices for their own good? Yikes. That's a worse take than the original idea.

This isn't a wifi network, it's a mesh network, and it's a pretty neat idea - if poorly executed. Basically if you have no internet a local 'Ring' (HA!) network would keep your security alerts online and functioning (but no video attached). Requires more thought and care in its implementation, but as the article states, security isn't a huge risk. They did a good job with the privacy measures.
 
2021-06-07 3:11:48 PM  

arrogantbastich: The problem has been shifting the computing part of voice recognition to make the product cheaper...


Chances are very good that you can use a home automation controller and  build whatever programmatic routines you want. The chances are very good that whatever you have will work with a Zigbee  or Z-wave controller. You may not even need to register the bulbs through a manufacturer's app in some cases.

It's mildly aggravating that the setting is buried in the Alexa app and not able to set from the web but it's not like it's a big deal to turn it off. I have a list of things I do when I set up a new phone or PC or web browser for someone. This is just one more thing for the list. It's just one extra thing.
 
2021-06-07 3:13:59 PM  

arrogantbastich: somedude210: The Internet of Things continues to be a stupid concept.

Also, would it seriously kill any of you tech companies to invest a modicum of basic cybersecurity to you products? F*cking dangerously stupid vultures

I totally love my voice operated lights. I farking hate that they've designed them to only work in such a manner with something online. I can operate them fine from just the wifi via an app... The problem has been shifting the computing part of voice recognition to make the product cheaper...


I could see this being useful if you're mobility limited, like a clap-on/clap-off device.  I can't get past it feeling creepy to talk to my devices.  The light switch works just fine.
 
2021-06-07 3:14:47 PM  

arrogantbastich: somedude210: The Internet of Things continues to be a stupid concept.

Also, would it seriously kill any of you tech companies to invest a modicum of basic cybersecurity to you products? F*cking dangerously stupid vultures

I totally love my voice operated lights. I farking hate that they've designed them to only work in such a manner with something online. I can operate them fine from just the wifi via an app... The problem has been shifting the computing part of voice recognition to make the product cheaper...


Offline Siri is coming on OS15:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/7/225​2​2993/apple-siri-on-device-speech-recog​nition-no-internet-wwdc
 
2021-06-07 3:16:05 PM  

likefunbutnot: arrogantbastich: The problem has been shifting the computing part of voice recognition to make the product cheaper...

Chances are very good that you can use a home automation controller and  build whatever programmatic routines you want. The chances are very good that whatever you have will work with a Zigbee  or Z-wave controller. You may not even need to register the bulbs through a manufacturer's app in some cases.

It's mildly aggravating that the setting is buried in the Alexa app and not able to set from the web but it's not like it's a big deal to turn it off. I have a list of things I do when I set up a new phone or PC or web browser for someone. This is just one more thing for the list. It's just one extra thing.


Voice-operated programs have existed since at least 1996 (my experience playing chess at a summer camp) and it was definitely working locally on no more than a 200MHz machine and maybe 32MB of RAM as a high-end stretch for the time.
 
2021-06-07 3:21:31 PM  
Well that's not concerning at all.

Isn't this how we get the geth?
 
2021-06-07 3:23:16 PM  

phimuskapsi: I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: White Hats need to mount up and close this vulnerability for the clueless majority.

So, they need to hack people's devices for their own good? Yikes. That's a worse take than the original idea.

This isn't a wifi network, it's a mesh network, and it's a pretty neat idea - if poorly executed. Basically if you have no internet a local 'Ring' (HA!) network would keep your security alerts online and functioning (but no video attached). Requires more thought and care in its implementation, but as the article states, security isn't a huge risk. They did a good job with the privacy measures.


Hey, everybody, Pollianna thinks you won't be enabling a surveillance network for Amazon's best buddy ACABs.

Precious.
 
2021-06-07 3:25:12 PM  

kyleaugustus: Voice-operated programs have existed since at least 1996 (my experience playing chess at a summer camp) and it was definitely working locally on no more than a 200MHz machine and maybe 32MB of RAM as a high-end stretch for the time.


OK. I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment. Zigbee and Z-wave are standards-compliant radio communication protocols for home automation. Many but not all smart devices work with one spec or the other and support for those protocols is also baked in to things like the Echo Show for interacting with such a wide variety of automation tools. You can run  your stuff through a Pi with the right USB modules, or get something like a Hubitat Elevation to do it.

In other words, you don't have to set up all your neato smart gadgets through your home assistant if you don't want to.
 
2021-06-07 3:28:44 PM  
media1.giphy.comView Full Size
 
2021-06-07 3:32:53 PM  

likefunbutnot: kyleaugustus: Voice-operated programs have existed since at least 1996 (my experience playing chess at a summer camp) and it was definitely working locally on no more than a 200MHz machine and maybe 32MB of RAM as a high-end stretch for the time.

OK. I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment. Zigbee and Z-wave are standards-compliant radio communication protocols for home automation. Many but not all smart devices work with one spec or the other and support for those protocols is also baked in to things like the Echo Show for interacting with such a wide variety of automation tools. You can run  your stuff through a Pi with the right USB modules, or get something like a Hubitat Elevation to do it.

In other words, you don't have to set up all your neato smart gadgets through your home assistant if you don't want to.


The thought being that local computing 25 years after it was already do-able at the consumer level should not be an issue.  Transmitting back to a data center is not necessary.
 
2021-06-07 3:45:07 PM  
Took 30 seconds to opt-out. Done.
 
2021-06-07 3:50:48 PM  
I use no Amazon services. I use the superior privacy controls from Google.

What?

shiat.
 
2021-06-07 4:02:18 PM  

ProbablyDrunk: Took 30 seconds to opt-out. Done.


I must have an older version, I don't see any sidewalk settings.
 
2021-06-07 4:04:42 PM  
500MB out of my 1.5 TB cap? Wow. How can I've with that?

I'll read the white paper and most likely just keep it enabled.
 
2021-06-07 4:07:51 PM  

rummonkey: ProbablyDrunk: Took 30 seconds to opt-out. Done.

I must have an older version, I don't see any sidewalk settings.


I opted out in alexa app on phone....
 
2021-06-07 4:32:29 PM  

kyleaugustus: The thought being that local computing 25 years after it was already do-able at the consumer level should not be an issue.  Transmitting back to a data center is not necessary.


Are you not reading my messages or just trying to be argumentative about nothing in particular?
 
2021-06-07 4:32:47 PM  

arrogantbastich: somedude210: The Internet of Things continues to be a stupid concept.

Also, would it seriously kill any of you tech companies to invest a modicum of basic cybersecurity to you products? F*cking dangerously stupid vultures

I totally love my voice operated lights. I farking hate that they've designed them to only work in such a manner with something online. I can operate them fine from just the wifi via an app... The problem has been shifting the computing part of voice recognition to make the product cheaper...


If remote computing is indeed making things cheaper, It's due to profit from hoovering up your data.  Though price is based on what people will pay, not cost of production plus a reasonable mark up, so I imagine affect on price in negligible.
 
2021-06-07 4:54:01 PM  
The cops will be taxing you for the new mega server they need to watch your daughter kiss her boyfriend good night, too.
 
2021-06-07 5:07:07 PM  
The thing that pisses me off about this more than the concept is that the instructions I've seen a dozen times don't work.  Go to Account Settings, go to Settings.. do I see Amazon Sidewalk?  No.  I've got three Echo type devices within earshot to the point where I have to give them three different wake words.

kyleaugustus: I could see this being useful if you're mobility limited, like a clap-on/clap-off device.  I can't get past it feeling creepy to talk to my devices.  The light switch works just fine.


I turn on the main bedroom light by voice when I enter the room. Then I get in bed and turn off the light by voice.  My arms aren't 15 feet long to reach the manual switch by the door.
 
2021-06-07 5:20:30 PM  

I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: phimuskapsi: I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: White Hats need to mount up and close this vulnerability for the clueless majority.

So, they need to hack people's devices for their own good? Yikes. That's a worse take than the original idea.

This isn't a wifi network, it's a mesh network, and it's a pretty neat idea - if poorly executed. Basically if you have no internet a local 'Ring' (HA!) network would keep your security alerts online and functioning (but no video attached). Requires more thought and care in its implementation, but as the article states, security isn't a huge risk. They did a good job with the privacy measures.

Hey, everybody, Pollianna thinks you won't be enabling a surveillance network for Amazon's best buddy ACABs.

Precious.


Pollianna's mom doesn't understand that because she is carrying a cellphone with an always on mic, she already is.
 
2021-06-07 5:22:55 PM  

syrynxx: The thing that pisses me off about this more than the concept is that the instructions I've seen a dozen times don't work.  Go to Account Settings, go to Settings.. do I see Amazon Sidewalk?  No.  I've got three Echo type devices within earshot to the point where I have to give them three different wake words.



Older gen devices do not offer this feature. We have some older gen devices. The fact that I cannot opt out during the opt out period means that I will not be purchasing any new Amazon devices.
 
2021-06-07 5:28:37 PM  

I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: phimuskapsi: I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: White Hats need to mount up and close this vulnerability for the clueless majority.

So, they need to hack people's devices for their own good? Yikes. That's a worse take than the original idea.

This isn't a wifi network, it's a mesh network, and it's a pretty neat idea - if poorly executed. Basically if you have no internet a local 'Ring' (HA!) network would keep your security alerts online and functioning (but no video attached). Requires more thought and care in its implementation, but as the article states, security isn't a huge risk. They did a good job with the privacy measures.

Hey, everybody, Pollianna thinks you won't be enabling a surveillance network for Amazon's best buddy ACABs.

Precious.


Hey look, you want to wear a tinfoil hat? Go for it. 

How in any way would this turn into a surveillance device? We are talking very limited bandwidth being used and video requires a ton of that bandwidth. If you own the device already you could perhaps run that risk (I don't have one) but this feature will not enhance that.

Ultimately you have to think of this as a range extender for devices already using a wifi network. It won't allow someone to connect to your home network, for example. It uses a special 900mhz network just for Sidewalk enabled devices. It is also very low speed with a maximum of 80KB/s. Think of these as meshed AP's that share bandwidth within a 'neighborhood' for these devices to function if someone's personal internet went down. 

https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/​a​mazon-sidewalk-will-create-entire-smar​t-neighborhoods-faq-ble-900-mhz/

https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewal​k​/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011

But hey, you want to get up in arms over that, I guess that is your prerogative. It helps to actually research the program before speaking to what it is doing though.
 
2021-06-07 5:33:13 PM  

phimuskapsi: I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: phimuskapsi: I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: White Hats need to mount up and close this vulnerability for the clueless majority.

So, they need to hack people's devices for their own good? Yikes. That's a worse take than the original idea.

This isn't a wifi network, it's a mesh network, and it's a pretty neat idea - if poorly executed. Basically if you have no internet a local 'Ring' (HA!) network would keep your security alerts online and functioning (but no video attached). Requires more thought and care in its implementation, but as the article states, security isn't a huge risk. They did a good job with the privacy measures.

Hey, everybody, Pollianna thinks you won't be enabling a surveillance network for Amazon's best buddy ACABs.

Precious.

Hey look, you want to wear a tinfoil hat? Go for it. 

How in any way would this turn into a surveillance device? We are talking very limited bandwidth being used and video requires a ton of that bandwidth. If you own the device already you could perhaps run that risk (I don't have one) but this feature will not enhance that.

Ultimately you have to think of this as a range extender for devices already using a wifi network. It won't allow someone to connect to your home network, for example. It uses a special 900mhz network just for Sidewalk enabled devices. It is also very low speed with a maximum of 80KB/s. Think of these as meshed AP's that share bandwidth within a 'neighborhood' for these devices to function if someone's personal internet went down. 

https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/a​mazon-sidewalk-will-create-entire-smar​t-neighborhoods-faq-ble-900-mhz/

https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk​/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011

But hey, you want to get up in arms over that, I guess that is your prerogative. It helps to actually research the program before speaking to what it is doing though.


The problem for me isn't the intrusiveness (or lack thereof) it's the use of my utility by other peoples devices that I didn't personally approve.  I'm a big fan of "opt-in" for stuff vs. "opt-out", with few exceptions (e.g. where there is a public benefit not a private/corporate one).
 
2021-06-07 5:35:15 PM  

RyansPrivates: I'm a big fan of "opt-in" for stuff vs. "opt-out", with few exceptions (e.g. where there is a public benefit not a private/corporate one).


I don't disagree. At the same time I kind of understand why they made it opt-out, and that's to 'force' higher adoption rates to make the service actually usable. But given the news today, it would be shocking to me if they didn't change this to opt-in by the end of the week.
 
2021-06-07 5:52:21 PM  

rummonkey: ProbablyDrunk: Took 30 seconds to opt-out. Done.

I must have an older version, I don't see any sidewalk settings.


My Echo had to have an opt-out, our Tap isn't showing anything.
 
2021-06-07 6:09:20 PM  

elysive: syrynxx: The thing that pisses me off about this more than the concept is that the instructions I've seen a dozen times don't work.  Go to Account Settings, go to Settings.. do I see Amazon Sidewalk?  No.  I've got three Echo type devices within earshot to the point where I have to give them three different wake words.


Older gen devices do not offer this feature. We have some older gen devices. The fact that I cannot opt out during the opt out period means that I will not be purchasing any new Amazon devices.


Ah, thank you. I have the original Echo that I had to pre-order six months in advance (while they were measuring market feasibility) and three first-gen Dots.  They're very handy except when I'm binging Star Trek TNG and the one with wake-word "Computer" keeps responding to the TV show.
 
2021-06-07 6:25:39 PM  
Opted out last week. Sidewalk is a stupid idea
 
2021-06-07 6:39:08 PM  
Basically, they're taking something you paid for and giving it away. This wont' last long.
 
2021-06-07 6:49:12 PM  

EnzoTheCoder: One more farking thing to have to shovel...

Thanks but no thanks. Some things should remain forever dumb, like toasters and the neighbor's kid.


Yeah, PGE offered me a "free" Nest thermostat.  I just had to allow them to connect to it for reasons.  The Nest has a reputation for frying heat pumps, so hard pass.  A simple, unconnected programmable does it for me.
 
2021-06-07 7:20:22 PM  
How many people are going to violate the terms of their internet provider by leaving it on and sharing data with others?
 
2021-06-07 7:21:41 PM  
I just got an email that my printer is now attached to my Alexa which concerns me and intrigues me. I don't want it to print ads but "Alexa print me a recipe for chicken paprika would be great.
 
2021-06-07 7:41:11 PM  

retrobruce: How many people are going to violate the terms of their internet provider by leaving it on and sharing data with others?


Anyone who has an Xfinity/Comcast router is already doing this. All those "XFINITY" hotspots you see pop up on your phone/laptop are public access points from home gateways.
 
2021-06-07 7:45:15 PM  

GardenWeasel: retrobruce: How many people are going to violate the terms of their internet provider by leaving it on and sharing data with others?

Anyone who has an Xfinity/Comcast router is already doing this. All those "XFINITY" hotspots you see pop up on your phone/laptop are public access points from home gateways.


That's the provider itself doing the sharing.  Not at all the same thing as this.
 
2021-06-07 8:10:52 PM  

arrogantbastich: somedude210: The Internet of Things continues to be a stupid concept.

Also, would it seriously kill any of you tech companies to invest a modicum of basic cybersecurity to you products? F*cking dangerously stupid vultures

I totally love my voice operated lights. I farking hate that they've designed them to only work in such a manner with something online. I can operate them fine from just the wifi via an app... The problem has been shifting the computing part of voice recognition to make the product cheaper...


Oh boy, have I got a solution for you!

images.tedium.coView Full Size
 
2021-06-07 9:14:29 PM  
I mean, I get it.  They figured if we really cared about our privacy we wouldn't have accepted cell phones so what's a little bit of door camera spying?  Thing doesn't even move with you.  I'd say that's a downgrade in spy tech.
 
2021-06-07 10:37:02 PM  

retrobruce: How many people are going to violate the terms of their internet provider by leaving it on and sharing data with others?


How much is that going to cost consumers with data caps?
 
2021-06-07 10:49:29 PM  
I don't have those things, but if I did they'd get their IP from my DHCP server, and that IP would be part of a block set aside for home automation devices and blocked from direct Internet access.

Don't care if you're KGB, Pooh, or Bezos, you don't (yet) control the data from my house even if you can recreate it  by mining other sources.
 
2021-06-07 11:45:38 PM  
I like my neighbors and already told them I will not opt out.   This is due to I have a generator on my house.  If we lose internet we all lose it and nobody will get this used unless 900 mghz can go over 30 yards through walls.   However, if we lose power, I stay up and running while my neighbors internet and power go out.
 
2021-06-08 1:29:00 AM  

RedVentrue: retrobruce: How many people are going to violate the terms of their internet provider by leaving it on and sharing data with others?

How much is that going to cost consumers with data caps?


It's not the data cap that concerns me.

Just sharing your connection is a violation of the terms for many internet providers.
 
2021-06-08 1:47:25 AM  

somedude210: The Internet of Things continues to be a stupid concept.

Also, would it seriously kill any of you tech companies to invest a modicum of basic cybersecurity to you products? F*cking dangerously stupid vultures


They consider us to be the threat, and think that they need to monitor us all. This is the white intern bro in California's version of security. I wish I was joking, but it really is. Theyn literally do not know what a person who walks to the corner store, or takes a bus to work, is like.
 
2021-06-08 2:19:59 AM  

retrobruce: RedVentrue: retrobruce: How many people are going to violate the terms of their internet provider by leaving it on and sharing data with others?

How much is that going to cost consumers with data caps?

It's not the data cap that concerns me.

Just sharing your connection is a violation of the terms for many internet providers.


Yep, But I'm wondering who's going to pay the charges. I'm kind of expecting many, many lawsuits just for this.
 
2021-06-08 4:08:17 AM  

RedVentrue: retrobruce: RedVentrue: retrobruce: How many people are going to violate the terms of their internet provider by leaving it on and sharing data with others?

How much is that going to cost consumers with data caps?

It's not the data cap that concerns me.

Just sharing your connection is a violation of the terms for many internet providers.

Yep, But I'm wondering who's going to pay the charges. I'm kind of expecting many, many lawsuits just for this.


Oh, if you share the data, you'll pay for it.

(Assuming you don't get your account canceled.)
 
2021-06-08 4:33:15 AM  

retrobruce: RedVentrue: retrobruce: RedVentrue: retrobruce: How many people are going to violate the terms of their internet provider by leaving it on and sharing data with others?

How much is that going to cost consumers with data caps?

It's not the data cap that concerns me.

Just sharing your connection is a violation of the terms for many internet providers.

Yep, But I'm wondering who's going to pay the charges. I'm kind of expecting many, many lawsuits just for this.

Oh, if you share the data, you'll pay for it.

(Assuming you don't get your account canceled.)


Ouch! Good thing I don't have any of that crap.
 
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