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(University of British Colombia)   You mathematically can't win at Tetris   (open.library.ubc.ca) divider line
    More: Vintage, Elbow, winning strategy, sequence of plays, bumpy lane, TETRIS pieces, iiList of Tables vList of Figures, model of TETRIS, Life history of flats  
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1949 clicks; posted to Fandom » and STEM » on 07 Jun 2021 at 10:20 AM (2 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-06-07 9:58:59 AM  
...and, now, you've got the Tetris song stuck in your head.
 
2021-06-07 10:08:56 AM  
I can define what winning is.

I win.
 
2021-06-07 10:16:57 AM  
Without reading all 64 pages, I'm going on the assumption that it's the version that doesn't allow you to hold/swap a piece.  That version is absolutely unwinnable.
 
2021-06-07 10:23:02 AM  
Well, duh.

To win at Tetris you would have to be able to get those blocks to stop falling or else to get the column to be filled to become larger faster than it fills with blocks. Un-possible.
 
2021-06-07 10:34:02 AM  

Miss_Dorothy_Kilgallen: ...and, now, you've got the Tetris song stuck in your head.


Nothing new, used to help a friend out with a 2nd grade class, they sang that - it's permanently welded into my brain even just hearing Tetris.

/Treasures have I in my korobushka', can you hear the peddler's cry?
//Though you see me in rags and tatters, I wear a smile upon my face.
///You can dance to the balalaika wearing satin, silk, and lace

*unless of course it's this:

Complete History Of The Soviet Union, Arranged To The Melody Of Tetris
Youtube hWTFG3J1CP8
 
2021-06-07 10:35:32 AM  
No, you probably can't, but the skills I've picked up from that game make me empirically better at loading the dishwasher than my girlfriend, who loads it using the skills she picked up from Angry Birds.
 
2021-06-07 10:37:01 AM  

Joe USer: Without reading all 64 pages, I'm going on the assumption that it's the version that doesn't allow you to hold/swap a piece.  That version is absolutely unwinnable.


I think the paper is saying, "is there a series of pieces that the computer can play against you that will ensure that you lose, no matter how quick your responses are"?
 
2021-06-07 10:43:32 AM  

Arkanaut: Joe USer: Without reading all 64 pages, I'm going on the assumption that it's the version that doesn't allow you to hold/swap a piece.  That version is absolutely unwinnable.

I think the paper is saying, "is there a series of pieces that the computer can play against you that will ensure that you lose, no matter how quick your responses are"?


Yeah, those farking "Z" shaped pieces.  Combine them with the squares and you're always farked.
 
2021-06-07 10:46:45 AM  
What actually is winning at Tetris? The standard version literally continues to increase speed ad nauseam. As a human being your limitations aren't when or which pieces fall, but how fast can your brain process the piece, move it, and go to the next one.

/Two best version of Tetris I've ever played are DX and 99. Hell yeah, Nintendo.
//The lag on my pro controller makes 99 super hard. I even have to kick off my scalers when I play because their lag stacks.
 
2021-06-07 10:48:24 AM  
I always though Tetris just kept getting faster until you couldn't physically turn the pieces fast enough.

Was there an actual speed cap in the original making perpetual gameplay possible?
 
2021-06-07 10:50:12 AM  
This is why modern Tetris games use a "bag" system, delivering permutations of the seven pieces to eliminate runs of S's and Z's.
 
2021-06-07 11:04:04 AM  

arrogantbastich: What actually is winning at Tetris? The standard version literally continues to increase speed ad nauseam. As a human being your limitations aren't when or which pieces fall, but how fast can your brain process the piece, move it, and go to the next one.


This. Even if your brain could keep up, rotating or moving a piece takes time. Eventually they will be falling too fast to ever be rotated or moved. If Tetris had a speed cap then it could be "winnable" by allowing you to play until you get tired of doing it.
 
2021-06-07 11:07:45 AM  
"If Tetris has taught me anything about life, it's that mistakes pile up while accomplishments disappear."
 
2021-06-07 11:08:18 AM  
Kinky.

/RTFD
 
2021-06-07 11:13:03 AM  
If you're trying to win at tetris in 2021, you probably aren't winning at a whole lot of ANYTHING.
 
2021-06-07 11:28:44 AM  
Did that site just ask me to download a pdf
 
2021-06-07 11:31:23 AM  

Marcos P: Did that site just ask me to download a pdf


Possibly. That way you can get the whole report. Why does that bother you?
 
2021-06-07 11:31:51 AM  
I'm thinking someone misunderstands Tetris if they think the point is to beat it.

It's a survival game, from before that was actually a thing.  This is true of many early video games.  You play, to live as long as possible, knowing death is inevitable.

It's also very Russian.
 
2021-06-07 11:38:06 AM  

Kris_Romm: I'm thinking someone misunderstands Tetris if they think the point is to beat it.

It's a survival game, from before that was actually a thing.  This is true of many early video games.  You play, to live as long as possible, knowing death is inevitable.

It's also very Russian.


I've beaten Tetris. It only goes to level 20 (200 lines).
 
2021-06-07 11:47:21 AM  
Some Junkie Cosmonaut:
*unless of course it's this:

[YouTube video: Complete History Of The Soviet Union, Arranged To The Melody Of Tetris]


I will never pass up an opportunity to watch that
 
2021-06-07 11:47:27 AM  
A good puzzle game like Tetris is going to hold up.  Basically all the games of my formative years were about how long you could last?  Could you do better than last time?  I still find them to have great entertainment value.
 
2021-06-07 11:56:39 AM  
CSB: I wrote a menu system for Xbox homebrew called MXM (Media X Menu). It featured a scripting language so users could customize their menus to include things like hard drive space, CPU temps, etc... and one guy wrote a fully functional (score and everything) Tetris game that could be played in it. Just brilliant.

I'm happy that I was able to inspire a lot of creative stuff for the homebrew scene. MXM was also the first homebrew dashboard that let you use videos in your themes (and provide preview videos for games), and my FTP server ended up in XBMP for a short time (which begat XBMC, which begat Kodi). If I hadn't burned out of the scene, I had plans to incorporate 3D into the system.

...that Tetris incarnation was a highlight for me, though.
 
2021-06-07 11:58:39 AM  

FarkingChas: arrogantbastich: What actually is winning at Tetris? The standard version literally continues to increase speed ad nauseam. As a human being your limitations aren't when or which pieces fall, but how fast can your brain process the piece, move it, and go to the next one.

This. Even if your brain could keep up, rotating or moving a piece takes time. Eventually they will be falling too fast to ever be rotated or moved. If Tetris had a speed cap then it could be "winnable" by allowing you to play until you get tired of doing it.


except the paper proves that you'll lose eventually, at least on older, non-grabbag versions
 
2021-06-07 12:04:12 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: I can define what winning is.

I win.


Not to play?
 
2021-06-07 12:13:39 PM  
Just look up Tetris in speedrun.com and see what it means to 'beat' Tetris.
 
2021-06-07 12:21:30 PM  
(Audio Synced!) AGDQ 2015 - Tetris Grandmaster 3 - Master And Shirase Mode | KevinDDR
Youtube qaMjbnvZMck


Pretty sure this dude won tetris.
 
2021-06-07 12:42:42 PM  

Joe_diGriz: Some Junkie Cosmonaut:
*unless of course it's this:

[YouTube video: Complete History Of The Soviet Union, Arranged To The Melody Of Tetris]

I will never pass up an opportunity to watch that


Peace and love?! <scoffs>
 
2021-06-07 1:14:09 PM  

Myk-House of El: A good puzzle game like Tetris is going to hold up.  Basically all the games of my formative years were about how long you could last?  Could you do better than last time?  I still find them to have great entertainment value.


I have to agree. There was someone posting a short while back that they didn't understand why people bothered with the 8-bit revival fad (paraphrasing), but there are some of the absolutely most frustratingly challenging, yet addictive and rewarding to play games from that time. My personal timesink was Arkanoid 2: Revenge of Doh on the Spectrum 128k. It's a game that instilled a particular hyperfocus in my mind, and a twitch reflex to rival a pistolshrimp by the later levels. It's those two that have carried on to my adult gaming. Some games like that just have the quality of being able to entertain, even with the most basic of premise.
 
2021-06-07 1:35:55 PM  
Oh good. I can tell 1990s me to stop trying now.
 
2021-06-07 2:09:25 PM  
Even as a kid I always played Tetris with the mindset of "how long can I make it with whatever random parts the computer punishes me with this time?"

The family my sister babysat for had a NES with Tetris among other games. The dad's brother bought him

Fark user imageView Full Size


for his birthday. I always found Tetris to be a play it for awhile and destress game. Pipe Dream was the opposite lol.

"Okay all I need is a piece like this or that and I can do this"

"Ha ha no."

*RAGE*
 
2021-06-07 2:27:22 PM  

FarkingChas: Marcos P: Did that site just ask me to download a pdf

Possibly. That way you can get the whole report. Why does that bother you?


Because a college allegedly run by adults doesn't understand that arcade games aren't intended to be played indefinitely?
 
2021-06-07 2:32:07 PM  

AgentKGB: Even as a kid I always played Tetris with the mindset of "how long can I make it with whatever random parts the computer punishes me with this time?"

The family my sister babysat for had a NES with Tetris among other games. The dad's brother bought him

[Fark user image image 497x680]

for his birthday. I always found Tetris to be a play it for awhile and destress game. Pipe Dream was the opposite lol.

"Okay all I need is a piece like this or that and I can do this"

"Ha ha no."

*RAGE*


I loved that game. PS4 Spider-Man had a similar minigame and I breezed right through it.
 
2021-06-07 2:47:03 PM  

Kris_Romm: I'm thinking someone misunderstands Tetris if they think the point is to beat it.

It's a survival game, from before that was actually a thing.  This is true of many early video games.  You play, to live as long as possible, knowing death is inevitable.

It's also very Russian.


"who on fark reads TFA anyway?"  I know I know...

The paper analyzes a posture that "beating" tetris is having a strategy that means that you can play forever.  It presumes a tetris implementation that doesn't scale difficulty through speed, but where the 'next piece' selection can be hostile to you and actively trying to make you lose.

I didn't read the entire thing, and won't claim to have complete understanding of what I did read... But it seems to walk through proving that there are plenty of sunny-day scenarios for piece permutations, but that there are ways that the game could feed you pieces that mean you can't succeed.

If there is a way for a hostile version of the game to feed you pieces that mean you can't succeed, that means those conditions could happen as a part of random selection, so you can't play infinitely, and thus can't "win" by their definition of "winning".
 
2021-06-07 2:59:20 PM  
I was going to say something about Tetris being like life - it just keeps throwing stuff at you faster and faster until it's more than you can handle and then you die, but I see that's been covered.

So I'll just say that The Tetris Effect (PS4) is amazeballs.
 
2021-06-07 3:45:39 PM  
freedomnotcontrol.comView Full Size
 
2021-06-07 4:00:25 PM  
Tetris has a "win" ?
 
2021-06-07 4:18:15 PM  
Restoring a Broken $2 Tetris Handheld. 9999999 Games in 1
Youtube 4KFuhtgzCko
 
2021-06-07 4:28:32 PM  

thatguyoverthere70: FarkingChas: Marcos P: Did that site just ask me to download a pdf

Possibly. That way you can get the whole report. Why does that bother you?

Because a college allegedly run by adults doesn't understand that arcade games aren't intended to be played indefinitely?


This sort of academic "problem-solving" is rarely about the actual problem. The focus is on the solution method, and how that solution may be applied to other problems (or models of problems).
 
2021-06-07 6:25:05 PM  

Kris_Romm: I'm thinking someone misunderstands Tetris if they think the point is to beat it.

It's a survival game, from before that was actually a thing.  This is true of many early video games.  You play, to live as long as possible, knowing death is inevitable.

It's also very Russian.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-07 6:45:20 PM  
You can, however, beat slave Tetris.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-06-07 6:49:39 PM  

AgentKGB: Even as a kid I always played Tetris with the mindset of "how long can I make it with whatever random parts the computer punishes me with this time?"

The family my sister babysat for had a NES with Tetris among other games. The dad's brother bought him

[Fark user image image 497x680]

for his birthday. I always found Tetris to be a play it for awhile and destress game. Pipe Dream was the opposite lol.

"Okay all I need is a piece like this or that and I can do this"

"Ha ha no."

*RAGE*


I loved that game. And the later Travis touchdown mini game.
 
2021-06-07 8:53:05 PM  

uttertosh: Myk-House of El: A good puzzle game like Tetris is going to hold up.  Basically all the games of my formative years were about how long you could last?  Could you do better than last time?  I still find them to have great entertainment value.

I have to agree. There was someone posting a short while back that they didn't understand why people bothered with the 8-bit revival fad (paraphrasing), but there are some of the absolutely most frustratingly challenging, yet addictive and rewarding to play games from that time. My personal timesink was Arkanoid 2: Revenge of Doh on the Spectrum 128k. It's a game that instilled a particular hyperfocus in my mind, and a twitch reflex to rival a pistolshrimp by the later levels. It's those two that have carried on to my adult gaming. Some games like that just have the quality of being able to entertain, even with the most basic of premise.


I loved Arkanoid 2! It was one of my first game purchases with my own money from running a newspaper route. (The other game was Indiana Jones and he had a cane in the game for some reason) I rode my bike up to the computer store across from the video rental store, and bought the box to play on my ibm clone with probably 256kb ram and a CGA monitor.

I'd sweat and shake when fighting the last boss. I loved that some games had endings.

Later, I'd notice our school computer lab with Tandy's had RGB monitors and I loaded it up and was the cool kid in the lab for a while.
 
2021-06-07 8:56:09 PM  
Rye whiskey rye whiskey rye whiskey I cry
If the whiskey don't take me I'll live till I die
 
2021-06-07 9:03:04 PM  

Wine Sipping Elitist: uttertosh: Myk-House of El: A good puzzle game like Tetris is going to hold up.  Basically all the games of my formative years were about how long you could last?  Could you do better than last time?  I still find them to have great entertainment value.

I have to agree. There was someone posting a short while back that they didn't understand why people bothered with the 8-bit revival fad (paraphrasing), but there are some of the absolutely most frustratingly challenging, yet addictive and rewarding to play games from that time. My personal timesink was Arkanoid 2: Revenge of Doh on the Spectrum 128k. It's a game that instilled a particular hyperfocus in my mind, and a twitch reflex to rival a pistolshrimp by the later levels. It's those two that have carried on to my adult gaming. Some games like that just have the quality of being able to entertain, even with the most basic of premise.

I loved Arkanoid 2! It was one of my first game purchases with my own money from running a newspaper route. (The other game was Indiana Jones and he had a cane in the game for some reason) I rode my bike up to the computer store across from the video rental store, and bought the box to play on my ibm clone with probably 256kb ram and a CGA monitor.

I'd sweat and shake when fighting the last boss. I loved that some games had endings.

Later, I'd notice our school computer lab with Tandy's had RGB monitors and I loaded it up and was the cool kid in the lab for a while.


I was curious and looked up that Indian Jones game ... Indiana Jones and the Lost Kingdom. It was as bad as I remembered it, and apparently the instructions were "Figure it out!" I never did.

Indiana Jones in The Lost Kingdom (C=64)
Youtube TERErY4Didk
 
2021-06-08 2:01:55 PM  

Driedsponge: I always though Tetris just kept getting faster until you couldn't physically turn the pieces fast enough.

Was there an actual speed cap in the original making perpetual gameplay possible?


The speed didnt increase in the original, nor in first version for Western computers from Mirrorsoft.
 
2021-06-08 5:50:18 PM  
wow, did they do any research on pentominoes?
 
2021-06-08 5:51:22 PM  

Joe USer: Without reading all 64 pages, I'm going on the assumption that it's the version that doesn't allow you to hold/swap a piece.  That version is absolutely unwinnable.


more importantly, older versions of Tetris don't use the Bag method, that is, you get one of each of the seven pieces for every seven pieces.
 
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