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(NPR)   For-profit medical schools were once banned in the U.S. But what could possibly be the harm in bringing them back? I mean, for-profit universities have been such sterling examples of quality institutions in every other area, haven't they?   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Stupid, Physician, medical school, Osteopathic medicine in the United States, Medical school, Doctor of Medicine, Dr. Paul Dolan's turf, medical learning centers, medical schools  
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1050 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Jun 2021 at 11:31 AM (5 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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5 days ago  
I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".
 
5 days ago  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
5 days ago  

grokca: [Fark user image 229x220]


Hey! Did you go to Hollywood Upstairs Medical College too?
 
5 days ago  

NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".


In theory, the various accreditation bodies take care of that (ie, SACS here in the SE US).  Then you have the various programs that also have their own accreditation agencies - which just about every health related branch does.
 
5 days ago  
You realize doctor have to pass boards right?
 
5 days ago  

NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".


"For Profit" is great right up until you realize that no "for profit" academic institution values actual standards and skilled professors over the profits.
 
5 days ago  
Yeah...I don't think I want to hear my doctor say "I got my M.D. from Trump University."
 
5 days ago  

Sin_City_Superhero: Yeah...I don't think I want to hear my doctor say "I got my M.D. from Trump University."


You're not that sick. It'll go away in 2 weeks. Believe me!
 
5 days ago  
Take a page from Trump U:

If you leave instruments in a patient, you can bill Medicare to take them out.  And the patients have no choice!  They're your tools!
 
5 days ago  
"I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called 'Mr.' Evil!"
 
5 days ago  
I was told government run schools were the problem and for profit schools were better for children??
 
5 days ago  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
5 days ago  
I'm surprised non-for-profit universities are, in fact, not-for profit given how much they charge.
 
5 days ago  
Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine

I would so call that the Rocky Balboa College of Osteopathic Medicine
 
5 days ago  
So, instead of being for profit, they can charge high tuitions and bank it all in the (giggity) giant endowments?

I mean, all these schools cry poor but your see their (giggity) giant endowments everywhere.  At the beach.  The big football game.  Usually, there are a bunch of accounts hanging around the giant endowments (oh, uh, giggity) talking about diversifying the portfolios.  Pervs.
 
5 days ago  

i.r.id10t: NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".

In theory, the various accreditation bodies take care of that (ie, SACS here in the SE US).  Then you have the various programs that also have their own accreditation agencies - which just about every health related branch does.


The ultimate question is, once there's real money and profit incentive going on, will the accreditation agencies keep their integrity?

Who exactly are they accountable to?
 
5 days ago  

Harry Freakstorm: So, instead of being for profit, they can charge high tuitions and bank it all in the (giggity) giant endowments?

I mean, all these schools cry poor but your see their (giggity) giant endowments everywhere.  At the beach.  The big football game.  Usually, there are a bunch of accounts hanging around the giant endowments (oh, uh, giggity) talking about diversifying the portfolios.  Pervs.


UVA is sitting on something like an $8B endowment.
 
5 days ago  

DuneClimber: I'm surprised non-for-profit universities are, in fact, not-for profit given how much they charge.


Non profit is a misnomer. Every firm has revenue and expenses. Schools dont give a flying fark about controlling tuition costs

Look at the 1000% increase in tuition at public schools with billion dollar endowments in the last 40 years
 
5 days ago  

Subtonic: grokca: [Fark user image 229x220]

Hey! Did you go to Hollywood Upstairs Medical College too?


I got a t shirt when I graduated!
res.cloudinary.comView Full Size
 
5 days ago  
Having standards cuts into profit.  Thus any for-profit venture, whenever possible, will lower or remove standards whenever possible to save a buck.
 
5 days ago  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Harry Freakstorm: So, instead of being for profit, they can charge high tuitions and bank it all in the (giggity) giant endowments?

I mean, all these schools cry poor but your see their (giggity) giant endowments everywhere.  At the beach.  The big football game.  Usually, there are a bunch of accounts hanging around the giant endowments (oh, uh, giggity) talking about diversifying the portfolios.  Pervs.

UVA is sitting on something like an $8B endowment.


They are relentless at begging me for money though.
 
5 days ago  

DuneClimber: I'm surprised non-for-profit universities are, in fact, not-for profit given how much they charge.


It's just a tax designation that means they don't generate profit for owners/shareholders.  "Non-profit" can encompass everything from your little neighborhood cat rescue that scrapes by on a handful of supporters and donation jars at local businesses up to huge nationwide organizations that operate basically the same as a monster for-profit corporation.  In theory, the difference between non-profit and profit is simply the goal -- achieve a mission for one, generate profit in the form of excess returns for the other.  If a non-profit is not operating at a loss, then that excess money is simply retained in places like the operating reserves, endowment, capital improvements, etc.
 
5 days ago  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
5 days ago  

i.r.id10t: NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".

In theory, the various accreditation bodies take care of that (ie, SACS here in the SE US).  Then you have the various programs that also have their own accreditation agencies - which just about every health related branch does.


Just wait until the lawsuits against the accreditation groups start.
 
5 days ago  
For profit healthcare, for profit medical schools. Makes sense really after the check clears with politicians.
 
5 days ago  

gyruss: i.r.id10t: NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".

In theory, the various accreditation bodies take care of that (ie, SACS here in the SE US).  Then you have the various programs that also have their own accreditation agencies - which just about every health related branch does.

The ultimate question is, once there's real money and profit incentive going on, will the accreditation agencies keep their integrity?

Who exactly are they accountable to?


I think we have that answer actually, from 2008:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
5 days ago  
Hey, you have to staff the Supreme Court with drinking buddies somehow.
 
5 days ago  

New Rising Sun: DuneClimber: I'm surprised non-for-profit universities are, in fact, not-for profit given how much they charge.

It's just a tax designation that means they don't generate profit for owners/shareholders.  "Non-profit" can encompass everything from your little neighborhood cat rescue that scrapes by on a handful of supporters and donation jars at local businesses up to huge nationwide organizations that operate basically the same as a monster for-profit corporation.  In theory, the difference between non-profit and profit is simply the goal -- achieve a mission for one, generate profit in the form of excess returns for the other.  If a non-profit is not operating at a loss, then that excess money is simply retained in places like the operating reserves, endowment, capital improvements, etc.


Don't forget that non-profits are still run by executives, with effectively no limits on their compensation.
 
5 days ago  

Fano: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Harry Freakstorm: So, instead of being for profit, they can charge high tuitions and bank it all in the (giggity) giant endowments?

I mean, all these schools cry poor but your see their (giggity) giant endowments everywhere.  At the beach.  The big football game.  Usually, there are a bunch of accounts hanging around the giant endowments (oh, uh, giggity) talking about diversifying the portfolios.  Pervs.

UVA is sitting on something like an $8B endowment.

They are relentless at begging me for money though.


I own a company here and I get relentless calls for me to advertise in UVA, GMU, VCU, JMU, etc football or basketball programs.  For $850 you can have an ad in the program!  So many people see it!

What the hell is $850 to these places that they need to pester me each year
 
5 days ago  

i.r.id10t: NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".

In theory, the various accreditation bodies take care of that (ie, SACS here in the SE US).  Then you have the various programs that also have their own accreditation agencies - which just about every health related branch does.


Yup, they'd still have to score well on their USMLE parts I and II to get into a good residency.  From there, the residency is responsible for making sure that they are good docs.

I think the issue with for profit med schools would be the predatory economic aspect of it.  I can see kids desperate to be doctors plopping down half a million to get that degree.
 
5 days ago  

Sin_City_Superhero: Yeah...I don't think I want to hear my doctor say "I got my M.D. from Trump University."


Don't ask their med school, ask their residency.

The chief resident at my anesthesia program the year after I left, a really good resident, was a Caribbean med school grad.
 
5 days ago  

brizbon: You realize doctor have to pass boards right?


You do realize lowest board score doctor is still doctor right?
 
5 days ago  
Look, somebody has to profit off this or it's wasted potential.

/This is how actual conservatives justify Republicans handing public lands and reserves over to their corporate pals
 
5 days ago  

gyruss: i.r.id10t: NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".

In theory, the various accreditation bodies take care of that (ie, SACS here in the SE US).  Then you have the various programs that also have their own accreditation agencies - which just about every health related branch does.

The ultimate question is, once there's real money and profit incentive going on, will the accreditation agencies keep their integrity?

Who exactly are they accountable to?


If it's anything like other for profit university the accreditation process stays the same but the admissions standards will be much lower resulting in a mixture of high failure rates and 7 year undergrads leaving with no degree and a mountain of high interest debt.
 
5 days ago  

mehhhhhh: brizbon: You realize doctor have to pass boards right?

You do realize lowest board score doctor is still doctor right?



Is the point of the board to evaluate competency, or to eliminate the lowest X percentile?
 
5 days ago  

mehhhhhh: brizbon: You realize doctor have to pass boards right?

You do realize lowest board score doctor is still doctor right?


That's a tautology. Where you set the cutoff matters, not that it exists.
 
5 days ago  

NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".


Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.
 
5 days ago  
Nothing would help struggling red state economies more than legalizing burking within their borders.
 
5 days ago  

NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".


One usually leads to the other.
 
5 days ago  
Abolish all private education.

I'm serious. Nothing good comes of it. Nothing.
 
5 days ago  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Fano: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Harry Freakstorm: So, instead of being for profit, they can charge high tuitions and bank it all in the (giggity) giant endowments?

I mean, all these schools cry poor but your see their (giggity) giant endowments everywhere.  At the beach.  The big football game.  Usually, there are a bunch of accounts hanging around the giant endowments (oh, uh, giggity) talking about diversifying the portfolios.  Pervs.

UVA is sitting on something like an $8B endowment.

They are relentless at begging me for money though.

I own a company here and I get relentless calls for me to advertise in UVA, GMU, VCU, JMU, etc football or basketball programs.  For $850 you can have an ad in the program!  So many people see it!

What the hell is $850 to these places that they need to pester me each year


If it costs less than $850 to pester enough people that someone pays $850, it works.
 
5 days ago  

brizbon: You realize doctor have to pass boards right?


Any chance paid-off politicians could lobby those boards to lower their standards?
 
5 days ago  

rga184: i.r.id10t: NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".

In theory, the various accreditation bodies take care of that (ie, SACS here in the SE US).  Then you have the various programs that also have their own accreditation agencies - which just about every health related branch does.

Yup, they'd still have to score well on their USMLE parts I and II to get into a good residency.  From there, the residency is responsible for making sure that they are good docs.

I think the issue with for profit med schools would be the predatory economic aspect of it.  I can see kids desperate to be doctors plopping down half a million to get that degree.


My understanding is that there's already a shortage of residency slots.  If you graduate from medical school with $200,000+ in debt and can't get residency, you're really screwed.  If your for profit school has a really low rate fo getting residency slots, nobody is going to enroll and pay for it.
 
5 days ago  

JesseL: New Rising Sun: DuneClimber: I'm surprised non-for-profit universities are, in fact, not-for profit given how much they charge.

It's just a tax designation that means they don't generate profit for owners/shareholders.  "Non-profit" can encompass everything from your little neighborhood cat rescue that scrapes by on a handful of supporters and donation jars at local businesses up to huge nationwide organizations that operate basically the same as a monster for-profit corporation.  In theory, the difference between non-profit and profit is simply the goal -- achieve a mission for one, generate profit in the form of excess returns for the other.  If a non-profit is not operating at a loss, then that excess money is simply retained in places like the operating reserves, endowment, capital improvements, etc.

Don't forget that non-profits are still run by executives, with effectively no limits on their compensation.


There should absolutely be a proportional cap (perhaps mixed with a floor/ceiling) on what people who run a non-profit can earn.
 
5 days ago  

NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".


You're repeating yourself.
 
5 days ago  

WeatherNerd: Having standards cuts into profit.  Thus any for-profit venture, whenever possible, will lower or remove standards whenever possible to save a buck.


The thing is, maybe not.  Medical school is weird.  When I started, our anatomy lab was undergoing renovation.  All my anatomy learning was via a book and other images.  I still kicked ass as a med student in the OR when the surgeons pimped mem with anatomy questions.  Hell, i might have been better at it BECAUSE instead of spending my time dissecting, I was studying.

The truth is, there is a standardized test that will determine how good a school is, and residencies would majorly scoff if that test lost its value.  So all a school has to do is guide you through the study for that test.  Hell, Kaplan probably could have done a better job preparing me for boards than my med school did.

Then real value of the med school the first two years (classroom stuff) was having actual, practicing docs guiding discussion in some peripheral classes.  So stuff like ethics and patient care and health care economics were invaluable to me.  Not the stuff I needed to pass boards, but the stuff I needed to actually take care of patients well.  I could see that falling by the side if you go for profit, as they could get solid scores and ratings just concentrating on board exam prep.  No school is judged on how well it guides students professional mores and ethics.  THAT'S where you might see for-profits cut costs.

Funny thing, I actually felt like my school overdid it with the touchy-feely stuff a bit.  There's a massive amount of information to read and absorb, and at some point, a couple of the touchy-feely activities that were a bit redundant took time and energy away from preparing for boards.  So there's a balance that needs to be struck between preparing kids for board and preparing future docs for actual safe and ethical practice.

The last two years are clinical rotations. And at those you're in a hospital working with docs and residents who teach you the ropes.  To be honest, people take that job of teaching med students seriously or not seriously regardless of what school they're affiliated with.  I had some great residents and attendings teach me super well, and at the same hospital had a couple of assholes make my life miserable and teach me nothing.  Same in a couple of away rotations I had at other hospitals, so I'm betting it would be independent of institution.

So all in all, it wouldn't be ideal, but for profit med schools wouldn't necessarily result in incompetent fools for docs.  It might result in more of the asshole types getting in and making it through the system though (i would imagine their admissions dept wouldn't care about much other than if they can pay and pass boards at the end).
 
5 days ago  

peasandcarrots: brizbon: You realize doctor have to pass boards right?

Any chance paid-off politicians could lobby those boards to lower their standards?


A hundred percent chance my Hindu friend
 
5 days ago  

TheGreatGazoo: rga184: i.r.id10t: NewportBarGuy: I have no problem with "for-profit" I think we all have a problem with "lack of actual standards and skilled professors".

In theory, the various accreditation bodies take care of that (ie, SACS here in the SE US).  Then you have the various programs that also have their own accreditation agencies - which just about every health related branch does.

Yup, they'd still have to score well on their USMLE parts I and II to get into a good residency.  From there, the residency is responsible for making sure that they are good docs.

I think the issue with for profit med schools would be the predatory economic aspect of it.  I can see kids desperate to be doctors plopping down half a million to get that degree.

My understanding is that there's already a shortage of residency slots.  If you graduate from medical school with $200,000+ in debt and can't get residency, you're really screwed.  If your for profit school has a really low rate fo getting residency slots, nobody is going to enroll and pay for it.


I was going to say that. I work for Public Health System that is part of the State University System.  They want to increase enrollment in our medical school, but cant due to not enough residence slots.
 
5 days ago  

Subtonic: grokca: [Fark user image 229x220]

Hey! Did you go to Hollywood Upstairs Medical College too?


I got the shirt for my brother when he graduated nursing school.
 
5 days ago  
"Non-profit" universities and hospitals are only "non-profit" if you ignore the dozen construction cranes standing over any one them at any given time. Technically not-for-profit, but the money for all that shiat doesn't grow on trees.
 
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