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(Jerusalem Post)   Arizona goes full Nazi. Literally.   (jpost.com) divider line
    More: Sick, Hydrogen cyanide, Capital punishment in the United States, Capital punishment, Gas chamber, Lethal injection, state of Arizona, Zyklon B, Arizona corrections department  
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15540 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 31 May 2021 at 3:25 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-06-01 2:03:20 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: Of course this paper says rats are good at detecting differences in O2 level in air.  Where as we've already discussed human distress being caused by increased CO2 rather than lack of O2.


Rats and many tunneling creatures detect O2 levels as well as CO2.  Evolution wise the O2 sensor is likely very ancient but not used by most mammals because there isn't too much they can do about it.
 
2021-06-01 2:36:39 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: orbister: S/he has consistently asked for relative, not absolute numbers. How hard would it be for you to say "It would be OK to me if <insert number here> percent of those executed were actually innocent"? It's clearly non-zero, so why not quantify?

The demand was for either absolute numbers or a real ratio as 'price'  with a gimmick that a ratio with a zero in denominator is always greater (better) in magnitude than one with a non-zero number. s


Of course, but if you believe that executing a few innocent people is a price worth paying (and it seems you do) then worrying over division by zero is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. So, what's your ratio? 10%?
 
2021-06-01 2:40:19 AM  

tekmo: orbister: tekmo: The wrongly taken life of a falsely incarcerated person can no more be restored than the wrongly taken life of an executed person.

If you think imprisonment is just as bad as death, why not kill anyone convicted of any offence, so matter how slight?

The woosh of my point going over your head must've parted your goddam hair.


Perhaps. Care to aim more carefully and try again? You seem to be arguing that wrongful imprisonment is every bit as bad as wrongful execution, from which it surely follows that lawful execution is no worse than lawful imprisonment.
 
2021-06-01 2:46:18 AM  

Wolf892: If killing the person who raped and murdered your child makes you feel better that's all that matters.


What about the "rape" part - do you get to rape them as well, if it makes you feel better?
 
2021-06-01 2:47:57 AM  

Wolf892: Why? It's the perfect middle ground for people who don't want the death penalty. Instead of killing someone just pluck out their eyes and leave them blind in their tiny cells. Let them sit in their darkness and think forever about why they are there.


Wouldn't it be easier just to turn the lights out? Would also save the cost of a guide dog if they turned out to be innocent.
 
2021-06-01 2:54:01 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: orbister: The most recent murder by a UK prisoner - that I know of - was committed by a man serving a very short sentence for threatening behaviour. The logic therefore seems to be that the sentence for threatening behaviour should be death.

Or, and I know this is a radical idea for you, that one guy could be tried for the additional crime he committed.


He was. Life sentence, minimum 25 years.

Hey did you know that in times of war on immanent war, the 13th Protocol of the European Commission on Human Rights allows capital punishment?

Funny on how something supposedly absolute has an exception ready to roll.


Two problems with your claim. First of all, it's the European Convention on Human Rights. Secondly, the exemption you refer to was removed in 2002. Bottom of page 54.

i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2021-06-01 2:57:13 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: orbister: Vlad_the_Inaner: Care to prove that the justice system kills innocents with intent?

You think people are injected, shot, gassed, electrocuted and hanged by accident?

I think that no one judged not-guilty ( basically what we're calling innocent) is intentionally executed by the state.


What about all those cases where prosecutors have deliberately withheld or hidden exonerating evidence?
 
2021-06-01 3:05:51 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: But you apparently think Bjork could still kill two more people if he was dead. That's swift.


How about that UK prisoner who murdered another while serving a ten week sentence for threatening behaviour. Are you saying that he should have been given the death sentence for that first offence?

Or maybe the prison officers shouldn't have locked a known psychopath in a cell with someone they wanted killed.
 
2021-06-01 3:31:10 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: thiefofdreams: ew why do they test things on rats.

Is it because human and rats react the same way to many external stressers.

Of course this paper says rats are good at detecting differences in O2 level in air.  Where as we've already discussed human distress being caused by increased CO2 rather than lack of O2.

This has messed up some people with ocovid, because they thought they were doing OK, because their lungs were expelling CO2 OK, but not taking in oxygen

https://www.livescience.com/silent-hyp​oxia-killing-covid-19-coronavirus-pati​ents.html

This is my personal experience on inert gas hypoxia also says it sneaks up on you.    Because I too had the opportunity to do the all you want helium squeaky voice trick while we were filling balloons ones one time.   I didn't find myself on the floor, but I suddenly did collapse down on my knees clutching the table with no warning.

Sp about rats being same-as same-as people?  No.


Well most of modern science needs to read your peer review studies on why rats are not good substitutes cause hey have been used for at least a century as stand in for humans.

God you are a waste of bandwidth
 
2021-06-01 4:23:18 AM  
Take him to Detroit
Youtube Yygj1aMiUw4
 
2021-06-01 5:10:41 AM  

austerity101: I'm just at a loss here. I don't get it.

The death penalty:
- potentially kills innocent people
- doesn't improve crime rates

Abolishing the death penalty:
- prevents execution of innocent people
- does not worsen crime rates

How is this even a discussion beyond that? The choice seems obvious to me.


It means we just don't kill enough of the RIGHT people, obviously. And we're too nice about it. The SCROTUS has already ruled that it's fine to kill innocent people as long as there was a trial that checked all the procedural boxes.
 
2021-06-01 5:28:47 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: thiefofdreams: ew why do they test things on rats.

Is it because human and rats react the same way to many external stressers.

Of course this paper says rats are good at detecting differences in O2 level in air.  Where as we've already discussed human distress being caused by increased CO2 rather than lack of O2.

This has messed up some people with ocovid, because they thought they were doing OK, because their lungs were expelling CO2 OK, but not taking in oxygen

https://www.livescience.com/silent-hyp​oxia-killing-covid-19-coronavirus-pati​ents.html

This is my personal experience on inert gas hypoxia also says it sneaks up on you.    Because I too had the opportunity to do the all you want helium squeaky voice trick while we were filling balloons ones one time.   I didn't find myself on the floor, but I suddenly did collapse down on my knees clutching the table with no warning.

Sp about rats being same-as same-as people?  No.


You DO realize the pathophysiology of inert gas asphyxiation resulting in fatal hypoxic-anoxic brain injury and the phenomenon of "happy hypoxia" resulting in death from Covid-19 are totally different mechanisms and causes, right?

Like is this a role play right now? Are you playing a schtick here?
 
2021-06-01 5:40:08 AM  
thiefofdreams:

God you are a waste of bandwidth

They're certainly living up to their user name.
 
2021-06-01 7:00:00 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: Murkanen: Vlad_the_Inaner:

Says the guy who says states are never justified in  killing

At what point do you feel it is okay for a government to murder its own citizenry?

Its never OK to murder them.  That, among other things, is why we have a justice system with courts and such, to not convict the innocent.

btw, that's another thing about murder.  It involves intent.  Care to prove that the justice system kills innocents with intent?


You mean they accidentally put the needles in them and the drugs were accidentally administered?

/of course they purposefully executed the innocent people
//they didn't realize they were innocent
///the executions were very much not accidental
 
2021-06-01 8:05:12 AM  
orbister: So, what's your ratio? 10%?

For an all convictions rate, thats too high.  For capital cases, given there are so few a year a single person will easily be multiple percent, so suggesting it as a percent.  with only 18 convictions in 2020, a single case is 5.5% in itself.

Wouldn't it be easier to tell us how many innocent people were executed last year yourself, instead of playing guessing games

For example, wikipedia reports its last 'mistake' for the US, a posthumous exoneration, in 2004.  So no one is reporting a plethora of innocents executed.
 
2021-06-01 8:22:06 AM  

KingOfTown: You mean they accidentally put the needles in them and the drugs were accidentally administered?


Into someone known to be innocent?  It would have to be something like that for someone who went though due process and came out declared not-guilty.  Which isn't what ia being discussed and you know it.

A different sort accident would be mistakes in the trial phase, resulting in execution, that were uncovered afterwards.  Given that human error can occur, its a possibility.

For instance, Wikipedia has a list of posthumous exonerations.  The last US execution on it is from 2004.  An  execution by mistake 18 years ago.
 
2021-06-01 8:47:42 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: orbister: So, what's your ratio? 10%?

For an all convictions rate, thats too high.  For capital cases, given there are so few a year a single person will easily be multiple percent, so suggesting it as a percent.  with only 18 convictions in 2020, a single case is 5.5% in itself.


So is that acceptable to you? Remember, the question is not "what proportion of executed people are innocent" but "what proportion of executed people being innocent do you think is a price worth paying?"

Once we know your limit we can turn to how close the system is and to whether the death penalty should be applied more (if there is some leeway to make up ) or less (if it's already over quota).
 
2021-06-01 8:54:23 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: For instance, Wikipedia has a list of posthumous exonerations. The last US execution on it is from 2004. An execution by mistake 18 years ago.


From the Death Penalty Information Center:

i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2021-06-01 8:57:27 AM  

Murkanen: drxym: I've never understood the ridiculous complexity of executing someone with gas, electric or lethal injection. They're more drawn out, more error prone and likely to cause more suffering than just shooting or hanging somebody.

Or you could just be a normal country that doesn't sanction the murder of citizens by the government.


Or you could stop conflating the death penalty with the manner in which it is conducted if it is carried out. And concerning that other matter I have absolutely no issue in principle to it although the US system is obviously dysfunctional.
 
2021-06-01 10:56:14 AM  

LrdPhoenix: hardinparamedic: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: hardinparamedic: a prisoner who is aware he is going to be breathing a deadly gas will likely hold their breath. Probably the only way a nitrogen asphyxiation could go off without suffering is under full medical anesthesia

He said "minimal," not absolute zero, and holding a single breath involves rather minimal suffering (and what suffering it does entail is entirely up to the victim, rather than the unavoidable pain of the other methods).

have you ever actually witnessed a death from asphyxia?

I have.

The way those people act when they die is the reason they give a paralytic during lethal injection before giving the potassium. It's to mask the agony and agonal throes of dying and give the impression we're putting them to sleep.

It's the reason why the press has openly been critical of watching someone take 35 minutes to die suffocating when they just use massive doses of opiates or anesthetics with cardiac effects.

The death penalty In the United States is not about justice, and it's definitely not about humanely ending life. It is all about blood atonement for their crimes.

You obviously doesn't know what death by nitrogen looks like.  It's incredibly dangerous when used in industrial settings precisely because you don't exhibit any ill effects until you simply drop dead, aside from tiredness or confusion right at the end, so it can kill a bunch of people without any alarm being raised.  Your body has no warning system for a lack of oxygen or too much nitrogen, only for an excess of carbon dioxide in the blood.  One of the quirks of evolution.

Since air is already 78% nitrogen, your body doesn't see anything wrong with it, it doesn't raise any foreign chemical red flags that might cause autonomic responses like coughing or choking, so you happily breathe it in, and still expel what carbon dioxide is still in you, so no feeling like you're running out of air or anything.  One second you're fine, the next you're dead.


By your description, it sounds like they know exactly what that looks like.
 
2021-06-01 12:49:49 PM  

orbister: Vlad_the_Inaner: orbister: So, what's your ratio? 10%?

For an all convictions rate, thats too high.  For capital cases, given there are so few a year a single person will easily be multiple percent, so suggesting it as a percent.  with only 18 convictions in 2020, a single case is 5.5% in itself.

So is that acceptable to you? Remember, the question is not "what proportion of executed people are innocent" but "what proportion of executed people being innocent do you think is a price worth paying?"

Once we know your limit we can turn to how close the system is and to whether the death penalty should be applied more (if there is some leeway to make up ) or less (if it's already over quota).


Actually because the case I refered to might have been misleading to say exonerated.  More like a mistrial.  A person tried and convicted for arson resulting in the death of his three children.  Witness as whispering to the corpse of one at the funeral as "you weren't supposed to be the one to die"  CCell mates witness to jailhouse confession.

The cases problems: The confirmation of arson was based on now discredited methodology.  (doesn't mean it was ruled an accidental fire).  DA should have disclosed he gave a plea deal to one of the jailhouse confession witnesses.

In addition his ex-wife started off saying he didn't confess to her in jail.  Later changes the story to he did confess to her in jail.  One of the jail witnesses tells a story that involves the now ex-wife, claiming the blaze was set to cover the death of one of the kids by the wife, and they were both into try in covering it up with the arson.

Its a hot mess, but has enough problems that I could see another investigation/trial could have happened.  May come up with the same result.  Might come up with charges on the wife.

A hot hot mess.

That happened 18 years ago.

So 18 years ago they made a decision on based on Best Available Data.  In a perfect world, they would have corrected some problems in the case, but he had a lawyer and a trial by jury, and was able to submit appeals.

Its not a case of a definitely proven lilly-pure innocent  (like someone else confessed, or the fire was proven an accident) being executed.  Instead it is just an indeterminate hot mess in history.  Do better next time.  I can live with it.
 
2021-06-01 1:04:11 PM  

orbister: Vlad_the_Inaner: For instance, Wikipedia has a list of posthumous exonerations. The last US execution on it is from 2004. An execution by mistake 18 years ago.

From the Death Penalty Information Center:

[i.imgur.com image 807x703]


"There is no way to tell" is not the way to lead in a strong argument.

They guy I mention from Wiki is on that list in the middle.  Willingham  I've already expressed myself on the strength of the argument of his innocence.   It is more that his case could have been handled better, especially with new arson investigation techniques.   I wouldn't call it good.

So how about this.  If innocents are executed, why don't you give a name who was completely exonerated by history.  Like a confession by someone else that they did it, not the innocent person.  With all  the claimed injustice supposedly occurring so often, someone should have had that happen.  The truth should have leaked by now.

That should be not too hard.

Say the name.
 
2021-06-01 1:32:14 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: Say the name.


Derek Bentley.
 
2021-06-01 3:02:23 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: "There is no way to tell" is not the way to lead in a strong argument.


It is when you're arguing against capital punishment.
 
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