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(NYPost)   I can't be fired because I refuse to work in my company's office, can I?   (nypost.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Employment, Occupational safety and health, violation of health, can of workplace worms, mental health, detrimental effect, new workplace issues, job interview  
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1323 clicks; posted to Business » on 09 May 2021 at 12:50 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



34 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-05-09 11:25:48 AM  
Probably
 
2021-05-09 11:46:06 AM  
It pays to be too valuable to lose.
 
2021-05-09 11:52:35 AM  
Yeah.  You can.

However, it is not hard to see that most of the "talent" is probably going to end up at companies that embrace remote work eventually.  It's time for those overpaid managers and supervisors to start doing their jobs rather than assuming that an employee that shows up is actually doing their job.

My primary focus for the last 14 months has been supporting the technical aspects of remote work.  I know who is working and who isn't.
 
2021-05-09 12:27:16 PM  
The way HR works these days to require employers to get like 15 pieces of paper and warnings and attempts to correct?

I'm sure some will, and have. But I don't see it as any kind of widespread thing.

And I wish it would be. I like basic worker protections so you can't be fired for anything but being a shiatty worker or putting yourself or others at risk. This would meet that risk criteria.

Trust me, I work in government and work with people who should have been fired for incompetence years ago. But workplace safety? Hopefully that supersedes all that HR bs.
 
2021-05-09 12:59:56 PM  

NewportBarGuy: The way HR works these days to require employers to get like 15 pieces of paper and warnings and attempts to correct?

I'm sure some will, and have. But I don't see it as any kind of widespread thing.

And I wish it would be. I like basic worker protections so you can't be fired for anything but being a shiatty worker or putting yourself or others at risk. This would meet that risk criteria.

Trust me, I work in government and work with people who should have been fired for incompetence years ago. But workplace safety? Hopefully that supersedes all that HR bs.


Yea... being a government employee is nothing like the private sector. People in Texas are often fired simply because the employer doesn't like them.
 
2021-05-09 1:20:27 PM  
Welcome to "at will" employment.
 
2021-05-09 1:42:11 PM  

Ambivalence: Welcome to "at will" employment.


yeah, I'm on the wifi at Will's place today
 
2021-05-09 1:48:49 PM  

Tex570: Yea... being a government employee is nothing like the private sector.


"Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities; we didn't have to produce anything. You've never been out of college. I've worked in the private sector. They expect results."
 
2021-05-09 2:00:46 PM  
Where I work, we just offered a job to an IT guy who lives almost 400 miles away. He will not be expected to switch to the office. Our new CEO was hired recently and he lives 300 miles away. No idea there. I was hired early in the pandemic; I'm an hour away and will look for remote work if anyone tells me that I have to go in on the regular. And I won't be going in while they decide what to do with me.

Commuting for a standard computer admin/support job seems silly when all the computers I work on are actually virtualized ones. If I had to pull cables or train classes, I'd need to be in a place, but I don't do that stuff anymore. I was working from home for two years before the virus showed up. (They laid off my wife from my old job and my supervisor asked what I was going to do. I said "work from home for now" and that's what I did from then until the next round of lay-offs came through.)

Yes, I know I'm lucky. I have friends who have had to go in to work the whole time (retail sucks). But I am not going back to any office where my presence is not actually required, and I'm not looking for any job where it would be.
 
2021-05-09 2:05:06 PM  
"I was told to never ask about benefits in the job interview. However, with all of the health issues from COVID, I appreciate benefits more than ever. Is it now OK to ask about them at the beginning of the process?

No, it's not. It's not quite as bad as asking which office you will be getting, but questions about benefits are typically reserved for the end of the process, if and when a job offer is extended. Your only goal is to first get them to make you an offer. Then you can evaluate the compensation and benefits before you make your decision. Unless you are interviewing with a very small employer (say, under 50 people), you are unlikely to find a company that doesn't offer a competitive benefits plan. I've rarely seen candidates choose one job over another because of the difference in the benefits, unless they have a serious underlying condition and they need to weigh up plans to ensure proper coverage."

What the fark? This might be the dumbest advice I've ever seen. Why would I waste my time continuing with the employment process for Company A if they don't offer comparable benefits to what I want? I have to wait until the end of the process? That is quite literally farking stupid.
 
2021-05-09 2:17:06 PM  

MizzouFTW: "I was told to never ask about benefits in the job interview. However, with all of the health issues from COVID, I appreciate benefits more than ever. Is it now OK to ask about them at the beginning of the process?

No, it's not. It's not quite as bad as asking which office you will be getting, but questions about benefits are typically reserved for the end of the process, if and when a job offer is extended. Your only goal is to first get them to make you an offer. Then you can evaluate the compensation and benefits before you make your decision. Unless you are interviewing with a very small employer (say, under 50 people), you are unlikely to find a company that doesn't offer a competitive benefits plan. I've rarely seen candidates choose one job over another because of the difference in the benefits, unless they have a serious underlying condition and they need to weigh up plans to ensure proper coverage."

What the fark? This might be the dumbest advice I've ever seen. Why would I waste my time continuing with the employment process for Company A if they don't offer comparable benefits to what I want? I have to wait until the end of the process? That is quite literally farking stupid.


On one hand, I agree with you.  On the other, if you're looking for work, chances are you have that time to spare (we're not talking hours and hours of intense negotiation here).  You're not committed to anything at any point, and if you're lucky, you could have multiple offers to consider.  Unless the details are important (like you need very specific coverage), the only time you'd really be wasting is the company's.  I would go for a middle ground where you establish the basic facts (like "Do you offer health insurance?") during the interview (a good company will tell you these things without being asked anyway; if they're going to offer you they will want to make sure you won't ignore them), and then after the offer get into exactly how what they offer comports with your needs.
 
2021-05-09 2:22:21 PM  
I told them I had conditions I expected before I was hired, and if they violated those conditions, there would be fark all to pay, and they needn't hire me

Of course, they were curious as to what those were.
And then said of course, you need not worry, you can rest assured those things will never be an issue here.

Fine, so before you hire me, you can have that put into writing.
(Stalling while they check with legal... Pussies)

Ok, we out it in writing,
Ok, you sign it.
Then I'll sign on.

Imagine that.
In 20 years having to pull out that paper and say hey, remember this?

4 times so far.
Each time is an additional bonus to keep me or see you on court, because you put that in writing.

It is at will employment.
But you contract them.
Never work for anyone but yourself.
 
2021-05-09 2:23:31 PM  

wxboy: MizzouFTW: "I was told to never ask about benefits in the job interview. However, with all of the health issues from COVID, I appreciate benefits more than ever. Is it now OK to ask about them at the beginning of the process?

No, it's not. It's not quite as bad as asking which office you will be getting, but questions about benefits are typically reserved for the end of the process, if and when a job offer is extended. Your only goal is to first get them to make you an offer. Then you can evaluate the compensation and benefits before you make your decision. Unless you are interviewing with a very small employer (say, under 50 people), you are unlikely to find a company that doesn't offer a competitive benefits plan. I've rarely seen candidates choose one job over another because of the difference in the benefits, unless they have a serious underlying condition and they need to weigh up plans to ensure proper coverage."

What the fark? This might be the dumbest advice I've ever seen. Why would I waste my time continuing with the employment process for Company A if they don't offer comparable benefits to what I want? I have to wait until the end of the process? That is quite literally farking stupid.

On one hand, I agree with you.  On the other, if you're looking for work, chances are you have that time to spare (we're not talking hours and hours of intense negotiation here).  You're not committed to anything at any point, and if you're lucky, you could have multiple offers to consider.  Unless the details are important (like you need very specific coverage), the only time you'd really be wasting is the company's.  I would go for a middle ground where you establish the basic facts (like "Do you offer health insurance?") during the interview (a good company will tell you these things without being asked anyway; if they're going to offer you they will want to make sure you won't ignore them), and then after the offer get into exactly how what they offer comports with ...


Well, I've been unemployed since October of 2020. I've done my fair share of zoom interviews. For most of us that were out of work we are applying for positions that are similarly compensated. I want to know why I should choose this employer over another before I waste my time going through anymore interviews. My time is valuable to me. Just because I was unemployed doesn't mean my time is worthless. If one employer doesn't offer dental but another does that's absolutely something I am going to consider. Same goes for 401k matches and the rest.

What the author of that "advice" column is saying is I should continue with an employment process I may not even take because it would be... rude? He doesn't really specify why I shouldn't ask about benefits in the first interview. Why should I take a second interview? We owe potential employers absolutely nothing. If they want me they'll tell me the specifics. If they don't I'll move on down the road to an employer that will.
 
2021-05-09 3:20:58 PM  

MizzouFTW: What the author of that "advice" column is saying is I should continue with an employment process I may not even take because it would be... rude? He doesn't really specify why I shouldn't ask about benefits in the first interview. Why should I take a second interview? We owe potential employers absolutely nothing. If they want me they'll tell me the specifics. If they don't I'll move on down the road to an employer that will.


No they're not, or at least the advice they're repeating was not saying that. Like a lot of oft repeated advice, it lost the original nuance of the answer.

Originally the advice about being careful to ask about benefits was to not give information that employers were not allowed to ask but would be more than happy to use against you in their decision. Asking a whole lot about details around health benefits could reveal you or a dependant have a specific condition that needs to be cared for, or that you have a wife and family or various other things they can't ask about but you can shove your foot in your mouth over.

The original advice was therefore be careful how you ask, and then morphed into don't ask. And you're right, that would be stupid if it's important to you. Just like you shouldn't let them know what you currently make doesn't mean that you can never ask about salary, there is a way to get some of the details you want.

I don't know what industry you're working in, but similarly I was doing interviews since last November for IT jobs. The format is basically an initial call with the recruiter/HR Rep to answer some questions about the role, gauge interest and basic fit. Then move to a more in depth call with the hiring manager and then some number of technical interviews.

The initial call is where you would ask about things like this,. This is also typically where they ask what your salary range is (don't answer) but when you get them to give what their budgeted range is is a perfect time to roll into asking if they can give some more details around the full compensation package. This is where it intent of the initial advice comes in. You don't ask pointed questions about how well Cancer treatment and recovery is covered, that reveals too much, you ask for some of the details at a higher level.

Don't expect the same details that they'll hand to you if you get to the offer stage, but sharing some details to make sure everyone is a good fit for each other is something both sides should be doing.
 
2021-05-09 3:23:49 PM  
I wonder if I can do that in construction...

As said "At Will Employment" I could just no call no show for a day and get fired.

Though actually probably not cause I'm hood at what I do.
 
2021-05-09 3:53:37 PM  
This is the modern era.  You can be fired for any reason, or no reason.
 
2021-05-09 4:14:03 PM  
If you live in a modern country probably no

if you live in the U.S ... employement at will darling so sure they can fire you.
 
2021-05-09 4:31:59 PM  

edmo: It pays to be too valuable to lose.


If you're truly too valuable to lose, then the company should be making contingency plans to lose you anyway, if they valued their business.
 
2021-05-09 4:40:12 PM  

MizzouFTW: "I was told to never ask about benefits in the job interview. However, with all of the health issues from COVID, I appreciate benefits more than ever. Is it now OK to ask about them at the beginning of the process?

No, it's not. It's not quite as bad as asking which office you will be getting, but questions about benefits are typically reserved for the end of the process, if and when a job offer is extended. Your only goal is to first get them to make you an offer. Then you can evaluate the compensation and benefits before you make your decision. Unless you are interviewing with a very small employer (say, under 50 people), you are unlikely to find a company that doesn't offer a competitive benefits plan. I've rarely seen candidates choose one job over another because of the difference in the benefits, unless they have a serious underlying condition and they need to weigh up plans to ensure proper coverage."

What the fark? This might be the dumbest advice I've ever seen. Why would I waste my time continuing with the employment process for Company A if they don't offer comparable benefits to what I want? I have to wait until the end of the process? That is quite literally farking stupid.


All job interviews should be a two-way street.  The company gets to probe if you are a good fit, while simultaneously selling themselves to the interviewee as being a good place to work for.  the place I works for gives the rough summary of the benefits one can expect during the very first meeting. There's absolutely no point in either party wasting the other's time.

/I can see waiting to try to negotiate fringe benefits until near the end of the process, but not finding about the basics at all until signing time would be ridiculous
 
2021-05-09 4:46:16 PM  
My wife just heard last week that her WFH is extended to September, at least.
 
2021-05-09 4:57:00 PM  

Kornchex: Yeah.  You can.

However, it is not hard to see that most of the "talent" is probably going to end up at companies that embrace remote work eventually.  It's time for those overpaid managers and supervisors to start doing their jobs rather than assuming that an employee that shows up is actually doing their job.

My primary focus for the last 14 months has been supporting the technical aspects of remote work.  I know who is working and who isn't.


USB Mouse Jiggler
 
2021-05-09 5:08:25 PM  
I've been working out of the office for 31 years. I have only been to the office 4 times in all that time. COVID has just meant I don't have to entertain my boss for the afternoon every quarter.
 
2021-05-09 5:22:05 PM  

Kornchex: Yeah.  You can.

However, it is not hard to see that most of the "talent" is probably going to end up at companies that embrace remote work eventually.  It's time for those overpaid managers and supervisors to start doing their jobs rather than assuming that an employee that shows up is actually doing their job.

My primary focus for the last 14 months has been supporting the technical aspects of remote work.  I know who is working and who isn't.


No, you can't.

You have no idea how the c-suites actually do their jobs, if you think that. For example, one of my partners shows up to the office about 1 day per week. He doesn't "produce" anything and is probably actively working about 10 hours in a typical week (a couple dozen phone calls and a dozen emails maybe). Yet he brings in millions and millions in revenue every year. That's his only job. And if you think he's not valuable because you can't count his keystrokes or see his internet history, then you've no idea how business works at the upper most level.

Not every workplace is IT or a factory where production is calculated in widgets per hour.
 
2021-05-09 5:33:43 PM  
I'm not going back to office full time without either a substantial increase (i.e., new job) or...

That's it...

I saved over $5k last year by not commuting, paying for meals, dry cleaning, etc. So it would be a pay cut right off the top.

All of the offices were also recently redone to resemble an Apple Store or movie set about a futuristic tech startup. Meaning, wide open. They even took away two of the stalls in each shiatter. And after this past year I don't trust about 30% of my peers to have been wearing masks or social distancing, let alone get vaccinated.

And on top of all that will be the lines to get in the elevator, which were already long even before they would limit each car to 3 people. And the shared fridges, and microwaves, and conference rooms are barely vacuumed, let alone sanitized.

Nope. Fark it.
 
2021-05-09 6:01:38 PM  

Excelsior: All job interviews should be a two-way street.


media.giphy.comView Full Size
 
2021-05-09 8:03:20 PM  

MetaDeth: Kornchex: Yeah.  You can.

However, it is not hard to see that most of the "talent" is probably going to end up at companies that embrace remote work eventually.  It's time for those overpaid managers and supervisors to start doing their jobs rather than assuming that an employee that shows up is actually doing their job.

My primary focus for the last 14 months has been supporting the technical aspects of remote work.  I know who is working and who isn't.

USB Mouse Jiggler


I've got a little python script that does that.  Its great at keeping the mandatory obnoxious anti-virus settings from turning my work laptop into a jet simulator every afternoon.
 
2021-05-09 9:08:37 PM  

BumpInTheNight: MetaDeth: Kornchex: Yeah.  You can.

However, it is not hard to see that most of the "talent" is probably going to end up at companies that embrace remote work eventually.  It's time for those overpaid managers and supervisors to start doing their jobs rather than assuming that an employee that shows up is actually doing their job.

My primary focus for the last 14 months has been supporting the technical aspects of remote work.  I know who is working and who isn't.

USB Mouse Jiggler

I've got a little python script that does that.  Its great at keeping the mandatory obnoxious anti-virus settings from turning my work laptop into a jet simulator every afternoon.


Yes, but that script can be found remotely. The mouse jiggler just shows as Generic USB Mouse, so harder to get caught.
 
2021-05-09 9:17:52 PM  

BumpInTheNight: MetaDeth: Kornchex: Yeah.  You can.

However, it is not hard to see that most of the "talent" is probably going to end up at companies that embrace remote work eventually.  It's time for those overpaid managers and supervisors to start doing their jobs rather than assuming that an employee that shows up is actually doing their job.

My primary focus for the last 14 months has been supporting the technical aspects of remote work.  I know who is working and who isn't.

USB Mouse Jiggler

I've got a little python script that does that.  Its great at keeping the mandatory obnoxious anti-virus settings from turning my work laptop into a jet simulator every afternoon.


care to share?  jupyter friendly?
 
2021-05-09 9:39:17 PM  
I've been let go from a job for absolutely no farking reason whatsoever, so yeah, they can fire you. They can fire you for having bad breath or unleashing an ill-timed fart. They can fire you. If they want to fire you, they will.
 
2021-05-10 6:01:43 AM  

Hyjamon: BumpInTheNight: MetaDeth: Kornchex: Yeah.  You can.

However, it is not hard to see that most of the "talent" is probably going to end up at companies that embrace remote work eventually.  It's time for those overpaid managers and supervisors to start doing their jobs rather than assuming that an employee that shows up is actually doing their job.

My primary focus for the last 14 months has been supporting the technical aspects of remote work.  I know who is working and who isn't.

USB Mouse Jiggler

I've got a little python script that does that.  Its great at keeping the mandatory obnoxious anti-virus settings from turning my work laptop into a jet simulator every afternoon.

care to share?  jupyter friendly?


Sure I've just been running it in an anaconda shell, fark is going to butcher the indentation but its not hard to figure out where it was:

import ctypes, time, datetime
mouse_event = ctypes.windll.user32.mouse_event
print("CTRL-c to exit")
try:
while True:
mouse_event(0x0001,1,0,0,0)
mouse_event(0x0001,-1,0,0,0)
time.sleep(60)
except KeyboardInterrupt:
pass

MetaDeth: Yes, but that script can be found remotely. The mouse jiggler just shows as Generic USB Mouse, so harder to get caught.


Harder I guess for sure since the typical data loss prevention software is looking for unauthorized USB devices being attached so as long as your company allows rando devices being hooked into company equipment you're in the clear.  You know that software that helps figure out if that strange mouse you found in the parking lot has a storage component with auto-loading malware buried in it.  You can never been too careful with parking lot mice.
 
2021-05-10 6:10:35 AM  
It depends to some extent on who you work for.

If you work in an at will employment state, not so much.

Most of those at will laws say an employer can fire you for any reason, or no reason at all.

Your employer may not have to even tell you why you are being fired at all.
 
2021-05-10 7:19:03 AM  

Satampra Zeiros: Tex570: Yea... being a government employee is nothing like the private sector.

"Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities; we didn't have to produce anything. You've never been out of college. I've worked in the private sector. They expect results."


watched that with one of my kids last weekend. Had forgotten about *some* scenes.
 
2021-05-10 7:56:34 AM  

Axeofjudgement: I wonder if I can do that in construction...

As said "At Will Employment" I could just no call no show for a day and get fired.

Though actually probably not cause I'm hood at what I do.


Lol. Bye bye safety codes.
 
2021-05-10 7:57:09 AM  

stellarossa: Satampra Zeiros: Tex570: Yea... being a government employee is nothing like the private sector.

"Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities; we didn't have to produce anything. You've never been out of college. I've worked in the private sector. They expect results."

watched that with one of my kids last weekend. Had forgotten about *some* scenes.


Everyone forgets about the ghost beej.
 
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