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(Comic Book)   Gal Gadot confirms that Joss Whedon is an asshole   (comicbook.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Wonder Woman, Gal Gadot, Joss Whedon, Justice League star Ray Fisher, director Joss Whedon, Wonder Woman director Patty Jenkins, new interview Gadot, extensive interview  
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4602 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 09 May 2021 at 4:35 AM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-05-08 11:46:41 PM  
Obvious tag had its career ruined by Whedon?
 
2021-05-09 4:07:52 AM  
Man, how shiatty is it of Wheedon to make impossible demands of Gal Gadot - like ordering her to act convincingly.
 
2021-05-09 4:52:02 AM  
The biggest clash, sources say, came when Whedon pushed Gadot to record lines she didn't like

The monster! What did he think he was, a director or something?
 
2021-05-09 4:54:12 AM  
I'm surprised they're having Jenkins back after the stink bomb of WW 1984.

Plus it had rape in it.
 
2021-05-09 5:40:23 AM  

Farking Clown Shoes: Man, how shiatty is it of Wheedon to make impossible demands of Gal Gadot - like ordering her to act convincingly.


The shiatty thing to do is to threaten to destroy her career.
 
2021-05-09 5:40:50 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-05-09 5:50:54 AM  

padraig: Farking Clown Shoes: Man, how shiatty is it of Wheedon to make impossible demands of Gal Gadot - like ordering her to act convincingly.

The shiatty thing to do is to threaten to destroy her career.


Yeah, you're right - that's pretty shiatty. Especially since she's perfectly capable of doing it herself with her "acting".

I guess the main problem here is that a bad director had to work with a bad actor. You just know something bad's gonna happen.
 
2021-05-09 6:42:15 AM  
And this is why Hollywood chews up and spits out women, regardless of talent.
 
2021-05-09 7:05:52 AM  
I think we found Joss Whedon's Fark account.
 
2021-05-09 7:38:42 AM  

Farking Clown Shoes: I guess the main problem here is that a bad director had to work with a bad actor. You just know something bad's gonna happen.


A bad director person
 
2021-05-09 7:39:43 AM  

Farking Clown Shoes: padraig: Farking Clown Shoes: Man, how shiatty is it of Wheedon to make impossible demands of Gal Gadot - like ordering her to act convincingly.

The shiatty thing to do is to threaten to destroy her career.

Yeah, you're right - that's pretty shiatty. Especially since she's perfectly capable of doing it herself with her "acting".

I guess the main problem here is that a bad director had to work with a bad actor. You just know something bad's gonna happen.


MUH WHEDON
 
2021-05-09 7:45:17 AM  
She is connected up the hoo-ha. That was career suicide, for Joss.
 
2021-05-09 7:52:06 AM  
So instead she let Patty Jenkins ruin it with WW84
 
2021-05-09 7:58:25 AM  
Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.

When I was in grad school there was a stem cell guy at my uni who was considered to be the next "wonder kid". He'd been first author on a huge Nature paper out of his post doc and was co-author on a bunch of other high profile publications and was on track to be a household name within the life sciences community. As good as he was he had a terrifying reputation: If he got pissed off at you for something, and it could be really trivial, he'd send a scathing and degrading email to you and copy the whole lab (~15 people), if that didn't get the results he wanted he'd do it again and copy the whole Department (~250 people), on a few occasions he copied the whole Faculty (2000+ people).

The thing is in most cases no matter how talented you are you rely on the support of others and at some point people will stop putting up with your crap because no matter what you bring to the table working with you just isn't worth it. The guy in my example above was cut loose after multiple grad students quit, a couple required extensive mental health treatment, and at least one death threat was made (at the Department Chari for "not dealing with him"). He did land at another school but it wasn't nearly as prestigious a position, he had trouble attracting students, and never lived up to his potential.

Whedon has done a lot of great work but we're well past the point where it's worthwhile dealing with him. He needs to change. I sincerely hope he can make amends to the people he's hurt and make the changes necessary to be worth working with again. He is talented but he needs to learn that talent isn't an excuse for being an asshole.
 
2021-05-09 8:00:03 AM  

Joshudan: So instead she let Patty Jenkins ruin it with WW84


There's going to be a third WW movie with both of them.

/ still have not seen WW 1984
 
2021-05-09 8:04:22 AM  

Tyrosine: Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.

When I was in grad school there was a stem cell guy at my uni who was considered to be the next "wonder kid". He'd been first author on a huge Nature paper out of his post doc and was co-author on a bunch of other high profile publications and was on track to be a household name within the life sciences community. As good as he was he had a terrifying reputation: If he got pissed off at you for something, and it could be really trivial, he'd send a scathing and degrading email to you and copy the whole lab (~15 people), if that didn't get the results he wanted he'd do it again and copy the whole Department (~250 people), on a few occasions he copied the whole Faculty (2000+ people).

The thing is in most cases no matter how talented you are you rely on the support of others and at some point people will stop putting up with your crap because no matter what you bring to the table working with you just isn't worth it. The guy in my example above was cut loose after multiple grad students quit, a couple required extensive mental health treatment, and at least one death threat was made (at the Department Chari for "not dealing with him"). He did land at another school but it wasn't nearly as prestigious a position, he had trouble attracting students, and never lived up to his potential.

Whedon has done a lot of great work but we're well past the point where it's worthwhile dealing with him. He needs to change. I sincerely hope he can make amends to the people he's hurt and make the changes necessary to be worth working with again. He is talented but he needs to learn that talent isn't an excuse for being an asshole.


He needs to explain why he wasn't allowed to be alone with a 13-year-old actress on his set is what he needs to do.
Then he needs to be put in a cell.
 
2021-05-09 8:11:26 AM  

padraig: Farking Clown Shoes: Man, how shiatty is it of Wheedon to make impossible demands of Gal Gadot - like ordering her to act convincingly.

The shiatty thing to do is to threaten to destroy her career.


Well, if she can't act, her career probably would be destroyed anyway...

/Unless...y'know...she does that thing that all the bigshots are getting #MeToo'd about...
 
2021-05-09 8:15:13 AM  
This is a repeat.

She kept writing dialogue for her character.  No one hired her to write.
 
2021-05-09 8:20:37 AM  

Klyukva: The biggest clash, sources say, came when Whedon pushed Gadot to record lines she didn't like

The monster! What did he think he was, a director or something?


Gal Gadot had already played WW successfully in two prior movies (she was considered one of the only good things in BvS and her movie the only good DC movie at the time) and was lined up for another solo movie. Whedon, on the other hand, tends to shove his characters into certain archetypes whether they fit or not. I trust Gadot over Whedon in her assessment that the character trajectory he was proposing didn't fit what was natural for WW.

/Whedon's biggest problem is decades of fans telling him he can do no wrong, even after the fiascos of "Alien Resurrection", a whole lot of nonsense on Buffy (most notably Tara's death and subsequent destruction of Willow's core persona), and Dollhouse. Enabling a prima donna bully to behave even more like an abusive asshole is not good.

/Also, Dr. Horrible was just kindof ok. Great acting, though.
 
2021-05-09 8:22:43 AM  

bostonguy: Joshudan: So instead she let Patty Jenkins ruin it with WW84

There's going to be a third WW movie with both of them.

/ still have not seen WW 1984


Don't
 
2021-05-09 8:23:48 AM  
I can't imagine how much it must suck to have to work with so many inflated egos just to try to make a film.
 
2021-05-09 8:28:47 AM  

padraig: Farking Clown Shoes: Man, how shiatty is it of Wheedon to make impossible demands of Gal Gadot - like ordering her to act convincingly.

The shiatty thing to do is to threaten to destroy her career.


THIS times a google!
 
2021-05-09 8:31:14 AM  
Whedon is obviously a prick who will likely never work in Hollywood again. I'm not sure what the point of these stories are now beyond giving Twitter something to biatch about for a couple of hours.

luidprand: Klyukva: The biggest clash, sources say, came when Whedon pushed Gadot to record lines she didn't like

The monster! What did he think he was, a director or something?

Gal Gadot had already played WW successfully in two prior movies (she was considered one of the only good things in BvS and her movie the only good DC movie at the time) and was lined up for another solo movie. Whedon, on the other hand, tends to shove his characters into certain archetypes whether they fit or not. I trust Gadot over Whedon in her assessment that the character trajectory he was proposing didn't fit what was natural for WW.

/Whedon's biggest problem is decades of fans telling him he can do no wrong, even after the fiascos of "Alien Resurrection", a whole lot of nonsense on Buffy (most notably Tara's death and subsequent destruction of Willow's core persona), and Dollhouse. Enabling a prima donna bully to behave even more like an abusive asshole is not good.

/Also, Dr. Horrible was just kindof ok. Great acting, though.


This

Bslim: Tyrosine: Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.

When I was in grad school there was a stem cell guy at my uni who was considered to be the next "wonder kid". He'd been first author on a huge Nature paper out of his post doc and was co-author on a bunch of other high profile publications and was on track to be a household name within the life sciences community. As good as he was he had a terrifying reputation: If he got pissed off at you for something, and it could be really trivial, he'd send a scathing and degrading email to you and copy the whole lab (~15 people), if that didn't get the results he wanted he'd do it again and copy the whole Department (~250 people), on a few occasions he copied the whole Faculty (2000+ people).

The thing is in most cases no matter how talented you are you rely on the support of others and at some point people will stop putting up with your crap because no matter what you bring to the table working with you just isn't worth it. The guy in my example above was cut loose after multiple grad students quit, a couple required extensive mental health treatment, and at least one death threat was made (at the Department Chari for "not dealing with him"). He did land at another school but it wasn't nearly as prestigious a position, he had trouble attracting students, and never lived up to his potential.

Whedon has done a lot of great work but we're well past the point where it's worthwhile dealing with him. He needs to change. I sincerely hope he can make amends to the people he's hurt and make the changes necessary to be worth working ...


This sound like a child labor law or something studio lawyers would come up with to cover their butts. I don't think any child should every be left alone on a set with anyone who isn't a parent or guardian.
 
2021-05-09 8:32:23 AM  
Bslim: He needs to explain why he wasn't allowed to be alone with a 13-year-old actress on his set is what he needs to do.

Because everyone knew he was a cruel verbally abusive jerk, and they were trying to protect her from that since she was only a child.

Bslim: Then he needs to be put in a cell.

This may come as a surprise to you, but being a big ol' jerk isn't a crime.  It's definitely grounds to fire the guy or to never hire him again, but there is nothing criminal going on here.
 
2021-05-09 8:33:21 AM  

padraig: Farking Clown Shoes: Man, how shiatty is it of Wheedon to make impossible demands of Gal Gadot - like ordering her to act convincingly.

The shiatty thing to do is to threaten to destroy her career.


Threatening someone's career is quite an appropriate reaction to them refusing to do their job.
 
2021-05-09 8:39:01 AM  
It's interesting that given all the complaints about Joss Whedon, none of them have come from his two most successful films - Avengers and Age of Ultron. Guess he knew he wouldn't get away with the bullshait with the Mouse looking over his shoulder.
 
2021-05-09 8:44:12 AM  

browneye: It's interesting that given all the complaints about Joss Whedon, none of them have come from his two most successful films - Avengers and Age of Ultron. Guess he knew he wouldn't get away with the bullshait with the Mouse looking over his shoulder.


Also: We've heard nothing from the cast of Firefly. Just saying. I'd be curious.
 
2021-05-09 8:46:27 AM  
I am willing to help her confirm I am a lousy first date.
 
2021-05-09 8:47:26 AM  

Tyrosine: Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.


This is a good post.

Add onto it the problem that the theatre/film industry in particular has the problem of only rewarding massive narcissists.  Generally speaking, if you're going to make a career as an actor or a director, you're going to face absolutely crippling amount of rejection.  Rejection in that industry isn't really like rejection in most others: if you get rejected for an IT job, you either never hear back from an interview, or at most you get a politely written "no thank you" letter.  Rejection in theatre/film is extremely often delivered face-to-face right during the casting session, and unless you're already recognized as quality talent, it's not delivered in a nice or polite way.  And until you get a break, you have to put yourself in a position for people to personally and deeply insult your talent and skill set, time after time after time, for years.

I couldn't deliberately design a system better suited to only ensuring that clinical narcissists make it through, because only someone delusionally confident in their own talent and abilities would put themselves in the position to have everything you've dedicated your life to becoming attacked and torn down with absolute regularity.  If you want to know where the problem with ego comes from, it's because - as a general rule - only the people with utterly out-of-control egos will get through that process in the first place.

Thusly, it's exceptionally unsurprising to me, having just wrapped up a 20-year career doing stunt work and fight direction (and seeing all of this first-hand), that Joss Whedon is a massive, albeit talented, asshole.  Almost everyone who is a director is an asshole.  Aside from the fact that their job is to be an asshole (insofar as you have to force everyone on set to do what you want them to do in order to fulfill your creative vision for a character, not theirs), only a gigantic egotistical asshole is going to make it through the process of "indy director > TV director > Hollywood director" and the absolutely ludicrous amounts of attacks and personal rejection that entails.

/even for a director, however, he seems to be more of an asshole than necessary
//yes, I am a fight director.  I am also an asshole, because if you don't do things the way I'm telling you to do them, then people on set will get hurt or killed.
 
2021-05-09 8:48:41 AM  

Tyrosine: Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.


And yet, Tarantino, Coppola, Spielberg, to name three, managed to do it without there being multiple accounts of them being raging jerks that threaten to destroy careers.  Women in recorded entertainment have an extremely short shelf life, for the most part, so even a passing comment or simple gossip is dangerous.  Women who start out, or focus, with live theater seem to have greater longevity and less stereotyping than ones that go straight to camera work.
 
2021-05-09 8:50:10 AM  

Dr. Horrible: Bslim: He needs to explain why he wasn't allowed to be alone with a 13-year-old actress on his set is what he needs to do.

Because everyone knew he was a cruel verbally abusive jerk, and they were trying to protect her from that since she was only a child.

Bslim: Then he needs to be put in a cell.

This may come as a surprise to you, but being a big ol' jerk isn't a crime.  It's definitely grounds to fire the guy or to never hire him again, but there is nothing criminal going on here.


People wonder how predators like Polanski, Cosby and Weinstein got away with the shiat they did for so long. It's because of enablers like. Shame on you.
 
2021-05-09 9:02:36 AM  

Klyukva: padraig: Farking Clown Shoes: Man, how shiatty is it of Wheedon to make impossible demands of Gal Gadot - like ordering her to act convincingly.

The shiatty thing to do is to threaten to destroy her career.

Threatening someone's career is quite an appropriate reaction to them refusing to do their job.


Making movies is a collaborative effort. Yes, the director is in charge. But when an actor has more experience portraying a particular character than the director, then the actor has a legitimate right to expect their input on the character to be taken into account by the director. Gal Gadot was Wonder Woman twice before Justice League and Joss Whedon took over the movie in the middle of its production after Zack Snyder left/was fired. Given the incredible chaos of that production, it would have made even more sense for Whedon to respect Gadot's superior familiarity with the character. But he didn't.
 
2021-05-09 9:07:26 AM  

Klyukva: The biggest clash, sources say, came when Whedon pushed Gadot to record lines she didn't like

The monster! What did he think he was, a director or something?


Damn it, beat me to it!

Newsflash: The director is boss.  Don't like it?  Too freaking bad.  They're the boss.  Work in the industry for a while and maybe you can become a director and do whatever you like.  Until then, you do as you're told.

If she refused to say her lines, she's the difficult one, not him.

/If you want a male equivalent of this, Edward Norton.  He has always been very demanding and egotistical, refusing to do all sorts of things as an actor.  Guess what?  He very rarely ever gets gigs because almost everyone hates his guts.  Good actor.  Horrendous to work with.
 
2021-05-09 9:21:07 AM  
How many Fark accounts do you have, Whedon?
 
2021-05-09 9:22:47 AM  

Bslim: People wonder how predators like Polanski, Cosby and Weinstein got away with the shiat they did for so long. It's because of enablers like. Shame on you.


As far as I know, the number of people who have come forward to accuse Joss Whedon of being a pedophile is still zero.  They had a rule on set that Joss was not allowed to be alone with Michelle Trachtenberg, but no one involved - including Michelle - has suggested it was because he might molest her.  He was a "casually cruel" prick who enjoyed making women cry, so naturally they took extra steps to protect a young girl from this.

You're just jumping to completely unwarranted conclusions, suggesting that a man should go to prison based on your misunderstanding, and calling anyone who wants slightly more evidence of a crime than "none at all" an enabler.  I think it's safe to say that this is not your finest hour.
 
2021-05-09 9:49:14 AM  

Dr. Horrible: Bslim: He needs to explain why he wasn't allowed to be alone with a 13-year-old actress on his set is what he needs to do.

Because everyone knew he was a cruel verbally abusive jerk, and they were trying to protect her from that since she was only a child.

Bslim: Then he needs to be put in a cell.

This may come as a surprise to you, but being a big ol' jerk isn't a crime.  It's definitely grounds to fire the guy or to never hire him again, but there is nothing criminal going on here.


hmm no biased user name, defending blindly. Nothing to see here.
 
2021-05-09 10:00:42 AM  

Bslim: Tyrosine: Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.

When I was in grad school there was a stem cell guy at my uni who was considered to be the next "wonder kid". He'd been first author on a huge Nature paper out of his post doc and was co-author on a bunch of other high profile publications and was on track to be a household name within the life sciences community. As good as he was he had a terrifying reputation: If he got pissed off at you for something, and it could be really trivial, he'd send a scathing and degrading email to you and copy the whole lab (~15 people), if that didn't get the results he wanted he'd do it again and copy the whole Department (~250 people), on a few occasions he copied the whole Faculty (2000+ people).

The thing is in most cases no matter how talented you are you rely on the support of others and at some point people will stop putting up with your crap because no matter what you bring to the table working with you just isn't worth it. The guy in my example above was cut loose after multiple grad students quit, a couple required extensive mental health treatment, and at least one death threat was made (at the Department Chari for "not dealing with him"). He did land at another school but it wasn't nearly as prestigious a position, he had trouble attracting students, and never lived up to his potential.

Whedon has done a lot of great work but we're well past the point where it's worthwhile dealing with him. He needs to change. I sincerely hope he can make amends to the people he's hurt and make the changes necessary to be worth working with again. He is talented but he needs to learn that talent isn't an excuse for being an asshole.

He needs to explain why he wasn't allowed to be alone with a 13-year-old actress on his set is what he needs to do.
Then he needs to be put in a cell.


Thankfully, being an asshole isn't a crime else 98% of the population wold be in a cell. I haven't heard anyone say Whedon was Weinstein-y, just a raging asshole with a pretty severe vengeance streak.
 
2021-05-09 10:02:31 AM  

Bluenosed Baker: She is connected up the hoo-ha. That was career suicide, for Joss.


Starting with the IDF.
 
2021-05-09 10:13:10 AM  
Josh Whedon pegs my creep-o-meter.  And not in a good way, like Louis CK or Kevin Spacey.  Josh Whedon has a whole nother level of illness going on.
 
2021-05-09 10:14:20 AM  

scotchcrotch: This is a repeat.

She kept writing dialogue for her character.  No one hired her to write.


Imagine if you will, RDJ plays his character in Iron Man 1&2 exactly like he did in reality. Now, come Avengers, Wheddon has him swearing like Samuel Jackson and crying over the most mundane things(like a flower or something, who knows). Now, that's complete out of character for what has already been established as a solid character. Of course the actor should chime in about changing it to something that flowed from the previous movie(s). That's what Gadot did here, and Wheddon threatened to ruin her career. fark his hat.
 
2021-05-09 10:16:44 AM  

Bslim: Tyrosine: Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.

When I was in grad school there was a stem cell guy at my uni who was considered to be the next "wonder kid". He'd been first author on a huge Nature paper out of his post doc and was co-author on a bunch of other high profile publications and was on track to be a household name within the life sciences community. As good as he was he had a terrifying reputation: If he got pissed off at you for something, and it could be really trivial, he'd send a scathing and degrading email to you and copy the whole lab (~15 people), if that didn't get the results he wanted he'd do it again and copy the whole Department (~250 people), on a few occasions he copied the whole Faculty (2000+ people).

The thing is in most cases no matter how talented you are you rely on the support of others and at some point people will stop putting up with your crap because no matter what you bring to the table working with you just isn't worth it. The guy in my example above was cut loose after multiple grad students quit, a couple required extensive mental health treatment, and at least one death threat was made (at the Department Chari for "not dealing with him"). He did land at another school but it wasn't nearly as prestigious a position, he had trouble attracting students, and never lived up to his potential.

Whedon has done a lot of great work but we're well past the point where it's worthwhile dealing with him. He needs to change. I sincerely hope he can make amends to the people he's hurt and make the changes necessary to be worth working with again. He is talented but he needs to learn that talent isn't an excuse for being an asshole.

He needs to explain why he wasn't allowed to be alone with a 13-year-old actress on his set is what he needs to do.
Then he needs to be put in a cell.


Pretty sure that's a normal arrangement. They tell male pastors and teachers and the like not to be alone one on one with kids like that, so they can be above suspicion or accusation of inappropriate behavior.
 
2021-05-09 10:28:37 AM  

Tyrosine: Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.

When I was in grad school there was a stem cell guy at my uni who was considered to be the next "wonder kid". He'd been first author on a huge Nature paper out of his post doc and was co-author on a bunch of other high profile publications and was on track to be a household name within the life sciences community. As good as he was he had a terrifying reputation: If he got pissed off at you for something, and it could be really trivial, he'd send a scathing and degrading email to you and copy the whole lab (~15 people), if that didn't get the results he wanted he'd do it again and copy the whole Department (~250 people), on a few occasions he copied the whole Faculty (2000+ people).

The thing is in most cases no matter how talented you are you rely on the support of others and at some point people will stop putting up with your crap because no matter what you bring to the table working with you just isn't worth it. The guy in my example above was cut loose after multiple grad students quit, a couple required extensive mental health treatment, and at least one death threat was made (at the Department Chari for "not dealing with him"). He did land at another school but it wasn't nearly as prestigious a position, he had trouble attracting students, and never lived up to his potential.

Whedon has done a lot of great work but we're well past the point where it's worthwhile dealing with him. He needs to change. I sincerely hope he can make amends to the people he's hurt and make the changes necessary to be worth working with again. He is talented but he needs to learn that talent isn't an excuse for being an asshole.


This myth that talent equals bad behavior is stupid.  They don't go hand in hand.  It was pushed on the public to keep assholes in charge.  Get rid of talented assholes and there would still be tons of talent left.  And, my guess, is those who were abused by the assholes would flourish and produce much better work without assholes around.
 
2021-05-09 10:29:03 AM  

Macfine: hmm no biased user name, defending blindly. Nothing to see here.


I think - based on everything people who know him have said - that Joss Whedon is a cruel, unprofessional, verbally abusive asshole.  I think that no one in the entertainment industry should ever hire him again.  I'm not defending him.

But suggesting that he's a pedophile, or a murder, or a space-going cannibal wizard, or whatever - based on zero evidence of those things, and for no reason other than, "Gosh, I really don't like him" is ridiculous.  Sorry if I don't want to invent fabrications out of whole cloth and then pretend they're true.  Come back when you have more evidence than nothing, such as a single legitimate allegation from someone that actually knew him.

Also, user names are not proof of blind fealty.  Picking a user name isn't like getting married.  I simply liked the Dr. Horrible musical when it came out (and I still do), couldn't think of anything better in the moment, and didn't want to spend anymore time thinking about it than the one minute I already had.  It certainly doesn't mean I love - or even like - Joss Whedon the person, or that I care about him in the slightest.

What I do care about are things like facts, evidence, and reality - things that some of the folks in this thread seem to have only an extremely vague passing familiarity with.
 
2021-05-09 10:39:40 AM  
This thread is missing hot pictures of Gal Gadot.

And that's...actually fine, considering the topic of a smarmy abusive sexually aggressive director.
 
2021-05-09 10:47:04 AM  

bostonguy: browneye: It's interesting that given all the complaints about Joss Whedon, none of them have come from his two most successful films - Avengers and Age of Ultron. Guess he knew he wouldn't get away with the bullshait with the Mouse looking over his shoulder.

Also: We've heard nothing from the cast of Firefly. Just saying. I'd be curious.


Not the cast, but Firefly writers have spoken out.
 
2021-05-09 10:49:08 AM  
There's a gratuitous butt shot of her in Justice League. Wonder Woman is walking down the street and the camera pans down straight at her ass and follows her for a little bit. I always wondered if that was a Joss Whedon move, or a Zack Snyder move.
 
2021-05-09 10:51:55 AM  

Tyrosine: Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.

When I was in grad school there was a stem cell guy at my uni who was considered to be the next "wonder kid". He'd been first author on a huge Nature paper out of his post doc and was co-author on a bunch of other high profile publications and was on track to be a household name within the life sciences community. As good as he was he had a terrifying reputation: If he got pissed off at you for something, and it could be really trivial, he'd send a scathing and degrading email to you and copy the whole lab (~15 people), if that didn't get the results he wanted he'd do it again and copy the whole Department (~250 people), on a few occasions he copied the whole Faculty (2000+ people).

The thing is in most cases no matter how talented you are you rely on the support of others and at some point people will stop putting up with your crap because no matter what you bring to the table working with you just isn't worth it. The guy in my example above was cut loose after multiple grad students quit, a couple required extensive mental health treatment, and at least one death threat was made (at the Department Chari for "not dealing with him"). He did land at another school but it wasn't nearly as prestigious a position, he had trouble attracting students, and never lived up to his potential.

Whedon has done a lot of great work but we're well past the point where it's worthwhile dealing with him. He needs to change. I sincerely hope he can make amends to the people he's hurt and make the changes necessary to be worth working with again. He is talented but he needs to learn that talent isn't an excuse for being an asshole.


Reminds me of the runup to the 2020 election.
 
2021-05-09 11:03:21 AM  
Dr. Horrible:

Picking a user name isn't like getting married.

<Mr. Jennifer Lawrence has left the chat>

*muffled gunshot*
 
amb
2021-05-09 11:03:57 AM  

FightDirector: Tyrosine: Immensely talented people are often very difficult to work with. Part of that is they recognize their talent and it's value and leverage that value to get away with being an asshole (i.e. If you don't like my behavior I'll take my skills somewhere else). Part of it often seems to be frustration in trying to communicate their vision to others who don't have the same talent. Neither is an acceptable excuse nor in any way justifies the behavior.

This is a good post.

Add onto it the problem that the theatre/film industry in particular has the problem of only rewarding massive narcissists.  Generally speaking, if you're going to make a career as an actor or a director, you're going to face absolutely crippling amount of rejection.  Rejection in that industry isn't really like rejection in most others: if you get rejected for an IT job, you either never hear back from an interview, or at most you get a politely written "no thank you" letter.  Rejection in theatre/film is extremely often delivered face-to-face right during the casting session, and unless you're already recognized as quality talent, it's not delivered in a nice or polite way.  And until you get a break, you have to put yourself in a position for people to personally and deeply insult your talent and skill set, time after time after time, for years.

I couldn't deliberately design a system better suited to only ensuring that clinical narcissists make it through, because only someone delusionally confident in their own talent and abilities would put themselves in the position to have everything you've dedicated your life to becoming attacked and torn down with absolute regularity.  If you want to know where the problem with ego comes from, it's because - as a general rule - only the people with utterly out-of-control egos will get through that process in the first place.

Thusly, it's exceptionally unsurprising to me, having just wrapped up a 20-year career doing stunt work and fight direction (and seeing all of this first-hand), that Joss Whedon is a massive, albeit talented, asshole.  Almost everyone who is a director is an asshole.  Aside from the fact that their job is to be an asshole (insofar as you have to force everyone on set to do what you want them to do in order to fulfill your creative vision for a character, not theirs), only a gigantic egotistical asshole is going to make it through the process of "indy director > TV director > Hollywood director" and the absolutely ludicrous amounts of attacks and personal rejection that entails.

/even for a director, however, he seems to be more of an asshole than necessary
//yes, I am a fight director.  I am also an asshole, because if you don't do things the way I'm telling you to do them, then people on set will get hurt or killed.


It will be interesting to see how Olivia Wilde's director career will turn out. She says she has a no assholes policy for actors or anyone else in the production. She doesn't want people that are difficult to work with on set.
 
2021-05-09 11:04:10 AM  

bostonguy: Joshudan: So instead she let Patty Jenkins ruin it with WW84

There's going to be a third WW movie with both of them.

/ still have not seen WW 1984


Fire the writer, lol. Johns is okay but it was too comicky to be a movie. You can't really get away with the same kinds of things. This would've made a really good comic arc, but as a movie omg stop. 

What Gadot/Jenkins did otherwise was mostly okay. It just got a little too goofy trying to be all the 80s it could. I really think WW3 should be post-Justice League and focus on the Trinity helping Diana with a major WW villain (I'm not up on the comics). That'd be a fantastic way to give the Snyderverse closure.
 
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