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(Reason Magazine)   USDA causes rare libertarian-vegan alliance   (reason.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Milk, average consumption of dairy products, federal dietary guidelines, dairy farmers, plaintiffs claim, federal court, dairy products, heads of the USDA  
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2001 clicks; posted to Food » and Politics » on 08 May 2021 at 2:50 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-05-08 11:06:36 AM  
Good.
Now do meat.
 
2021-05-08 11:09:48 AM  
I'm cool with this.
 
2021-05-08 11:11:55 AM  
FTA:

"Though I eat meat every day and consume dairy products most days-and disagree strenuously with PCRM about the general healthfulness of those foods-I welcome the lawsuit. Indeed, I've long argued against the USDA's foolish and wasteful promotion of dairy products. Despite spending billions in subsidies, the USDA hasn't helped struggling dairy farmers to thrive. In fact, just the opposite is true. Decades of central planning have harmed America's dairy farmers. American cow-milk consumption is plummeting and the nation's dairy farmers are going out of business".

So, demand for milk is dropping and dairy farms cannot stay afloat?

Oh, but it's "central planning" that has doomed dairy farmers.

Libertarians can't even tell what supply and demand is when it's right in front of their f*cking face.
 
2021-05-08 11:29:18 AM  
The suit asks the court to order the USDA to stop promoting dairy products, stop "equating 'protein' with meat," and stop "hiding" what the plaintiffs claim are "the ill effects of consuming meat and dairy products."

i.kym-cdn.comView Full Size
 
2021-05-08 2:17:23 PM  

SurfaceTension: The suit asks the court to order the USDA to stop promoting dairy products, stop "equating 'protein' with meat," and stop "hiding" what the plaintiffs claim are "the ill effects of consuming meat and dairy products."

[i.kym-cdn.com image 600x673]


Actually how about just cutting back subsidies to meat and dairy to the same level we subsidize vegetables.

Or, IDK, cut all food subsidies and just subsidize consumers with UBI food credits and let the market decide.

/Why does the commie have to perpetually school the libertarian on economic basics?
//Duh.
 
2021-05-08 2:52:54 PM  
This is nothing more than a lawsuit designed to get media attention. There is zero reason under the law why the plaintiffs should prevail.
 
2021-05-08 2:54:15 PM  

yohohogreengiant: SurfaceTension: The suit asks the court to order the USDA to stop promoting dairy products, stop "equating 'protein' with meat," and stop "hiding" what the plaintiffs claim are "the ill effects of consuming meat and dairy products."

[i.kym-cdn.com image 600x673]

Actually how about just cutting back subsidies to meat and dairy to the same level we subsidize vegetables.

Or, IDK, cut all food subsidies and just subsidize consumers with UBI food credits and let the market decide.

/Why does the commie have to perpetually school the libertarian on economic basics?
//Duh.


Sadly the government will underfund food stamps and drive consumers to buy processed foods for calories, like how it is today. And processed foods have higher margin ...

It is a very sick system
 
2021-05-08 2:56:03 PM  

yohohogreengiant: Good.
Now do meat.


But how can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?
 
2021-05-08 2:58:27 PM  
Unsure how anyone would respond to the vegans without resorting to STFU.

As someone who has no genetic connection to the future, I guess I'm eating steak tonight.
As someone who knows that all religious groups and dummbf*cks (I'm stuttering) are responsible for the future that they will suffer in, f*ck them all.

"Be fruitful and multiple" and "tax cuts" are the answer to every single problem like over population and climate change.

Ah ha ha ha.  You're children and grandchildren will die painfully and I don't care, cuz I'll be dead.  Your fault, not mine, because you should care about the outcome, but are too f*cking stupid and weak to do it.  Therefore, all of you want them to die painfully.  Inaction is a same as wanting it to happen.
 
2021-05-08 3:01:21 PM  
they may be onto something... my ashkenazi fwb doesn't swallow
 
2021-05-08 3:02:01 PM  
It's funny.  In the article they claim that there is "independent evidence" that lactose intolerance is the default for at least 20% of Americans.

The link goes to a study that says in certain populations (e.g. East Asians) it's high.  But for most of the population it's 5%.

***cough*** ***attention*** ***cough*** ***whores*** ***cough***
 
2021-05-08 3:03:09 PM  
What about Federalists, like, say...

i.gifer.comView Full Size
 
2021-05-08 3:04:12 PM  
Vocal vegans and libertarians are equally insufferable.
 
2021-05-08 3:10:22 PM  

Fart_Machine: Vocal vegans and libertarians are equally insufferable.


Fanatics of any sort are insufferable.

/and it'd not even be that weird of an alliance
//you can get <Anyfarkingthingatall> Libertarians
///they're pretty much the final form of the big tent party of disparate nyuck nyucks bound by a nebulous issue or 2 and that's the only point of commonality
////the usual "White guy that never grew out of college stoner solutions business owner" trope is just that - the usual - but there are oh so many more levels of whack to be discovered
 
2021-05-08 3:11:11 PM  

Rev.K: FTA:

"Though I eat meat every day and consume dairy products most days-and disagree strenuously with PCRM about the general healthfulness of those foods-I welcome the lawsuit. Indeed, I've long argued against the USDA's foolish and wasteful promotion of dairy products. Despite spending billions in subsidies, the USDA hasn't helped struggling dairy farmers to thrive. In fact, just the opposite is true. Decades of central planning have harmed America's dairy farmers. American cow-milk consumption is plummeting and the nation's dairy farmers are going out of business".

So, demand for milk is dropping and dairy farms cannot stay afloat?

Oh, but it's "central planning" that has doomed dairy farmers.

Libertarians can't even tell what supply and demand is when it's right in front of their f*cking face.


The bit about cow milk consumption, that's a bad argument. Retail fluid milk in bottles is one segment of a global & local dairy commodity market that includes butter, cheese, dried milk, lactose, whey protein, yogurt, ice cream, a bunch of other niche cultured products and ingredients. Me, I don't know what proportion of U.S. milk production winds up in bottles on grocery store shelves, but if it's part of the argument that fta's putting forth the honest thing would have been to include that data.
 
2021-05-08 3:15:25 PM  

Rev.K: FTA:

"Though I eat meat every day and consume dairy products most days-and disagree strenuously with PCRM about the general healthfulness of those foods-I welcome the lawsuit. Indeed, I've long argued against the USDA's foolish and wasteful promotion of dairy products. Despite spending billions in subsidies, the USDA hasn't helped struggling dairy farmers to thrive. In fact, just the opposite is true. Decades of central planning have harmed America's dairy farmers. American cow-milk consumption is plummeting and the nation's dairy farmers are going out of business".

So, demand for milk is dropping and dairy farms cannot stay afloat?

Oh, but it's "central planning" that has doomed dairy farmers.

Libertarians can't even tell what supply and demand is when it's right in front of their f*cking face.


Sometimes you reach the right conclusion, even when you employ faulty reasoning.
 
2021-05-08 3:18:47 PM  

phaseolus: Rev.K: FTA:

"Though I eat meat every day and consume dairy products most days-and disagree strenuously with PCRM about the general healthfulness of those foods-I welcome the lawsuit. Indeed, I've long argued against the USDA's foolish and wasteful promotion of dairy products. Despite spending billions in subsidies, the USDA hasn't helped struggling dairy farmers to thrive. In fact, just the opposite is true. Decades of central planning have harmed America's dairy farmers. American cow-milk consumption is plummeting and the nation's dairy farmers are going out of business".

So, demand for milk is dropping and dairy farms cannot stay afloat?

Oh, but it's "central planning" that has doomed dairy farmers.

Libertarians can't even tell what supply and demand is when it's right in front of their f*cking face.

The bit about cow milk consumption, that's a bad argument. Retail fluid milk in bottles is one segment of a global & local dairy commodity market that includes butter, cheese, dried milk, lactose, whey protein, yogurt, ice cream, a bunch of other niche cultured products and ingredients. Me, I don't know what proportion of U.S. milk production winds up in bottles on grocery store shelves, but if it's part of the argument that fta's putting forth the honest thing would have been to include that data.


Reason's never been honest about anything they've decided to comment on.
 
2021-05-08 3:18:58 PM  

Airius: Sadly the government will underfund food stamps and drive consumers to buy processed foods for calories, like how it is today. And processed foods have higher margin ...


I don't understand --- are consumers prevented somehow from buying foods that aren't processed? Is there some sort of law requiring people to be enormous fatasses, that only more free money from Uncle Sam will prevent?
 
2021-05-08 3:30:10 PM  

proteus_b: Airius: Sadly the government will underfund food stamps and drive consumers to buy processed foods for calories, like how it is today. And processed foods have higher margin ...

I don't understand --- are consumers prevented somehow from buying foods that aren't processed? Is there some sort of law requiring people to be enormous fatasses, that only more free money from Uncle Sam will prevent?


You can't afford fresh vegetables and quality protein sources on food stamps. What's the cost of 600 calories via a Swanson dinner vs. baked chicken with root veggies and salad, for instance? Not to mention the hours you need to work just to make rent these days.

When you give poor people money they spend it on necessities. When you give rich people money they hoard it, but that's too much thinking for libertarians.
 
2021-05-08 3:30:21 PM  

proteus_b: Airius: Sadly the government will underfund food stamps and drive consumers to buy processed foods for calories, like how it is today. And processed foods have higher margin ...

I don't understand --- are consumers prevented somehow from buying foods that aren't processed? Is there some sort of law requiring people to be enormous fatasses, that only more free money from Uncle Sam will prevent?


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-05-08 3:30:21 PM  
Most government agriculture subsidies are to prop up big AG and farms that are tied into that industry.  So lobbying produces $$.

Small farmers see no subsidies generally (but get tax breaks).

As for the vegan/libertarian alliance I hope  they are applying the same logic to milk then I assume they will make the same arguments for corn, soy, wheat etc.
 
2021-05-08 3:30:56 PM  
When the fark will they finally release Beyond Horse steaks?
 
2021-05-08 3:36:09 PM  

Froman: You can't afford fresh vegetables and quality protein sources on food stamps. What's the cost of 600 calories via a Swanson dinner vs. baked chicken with root veggies and salad, for instance? Not to mention the hours you need to work just to make rent these days.


Well, having just finished an eight month period where I wasn't able to work, neither to collect unemployment, I would say that eating food that I prepared is certainly more economical (than eating out or eating "prepared dinners").
 
2021-05-08 3:45:17 PM  

Jacobite_55: It's funny.  In the article they claim that there is "independent evidence" that lactose intolerance is the default for at least 20% of Americans.

The link goes to a study that says in certain populations (e.g. East Asians) it's high.  But for most of the population it's 5%.

***cough*** ***attention*** ***cough*** ***whores*** ***cough***


They're a front group for PETA that anyone can join, regardless of whether or not they're an actual MD or DO. Their panels of "experts" seem to not include a whole lot of physicians.
 
2021-05-08 3:55:10 PM  
I work with USDA meal programs, including the National School Lunch Program (NSLP).

Every meal component has allowable alternates for health or religious exemptions.  If a student can't eat pork, wheat, peanut butter, strawberries, whatever, the meal provider has to provide an alternate.  (Note that the "protein" component is literally called MMA, Meat and Meat Alternates.)  Alternates are required for all components.

All components, except for dairy.  If a student can't have dairy for health or religious reasons, providers can just waive the requirement.  There is no allowable alternate to dairy. The kid can have water, and like it.

That alone shows that the regulations were written either by dairy producers, or legislators owned by dairy producers.
 
2021-05-08 3:55:12 PM  

proteus_b: Froman: You can't afford fresh vegetables and quality protein sources on food stamps. What's the cost of 600 calories via a Swanson dinner vs. baked chicken with root veggies and salad, for instance? Not to mention the hours you need to work just to make rent these days.

Well, having just finished an eight month period where I wasn't able to work, neither to collect unemployment, I would say that eating food that I prepared is certainly more economical (than eating out or eating "prepared dinners").


Does that include the cost of your labor in cooking your own food? Say, if you spent a half hour preparing a meal, add $3.00 to the cost.

(This is assuming that your labor is valued at minimum wage, then deducting the five minutes to put a TV dinner in the microwave to make a fair comparison with the prepared food.)
 
2021-05-08 4:00:27 PM  
Now all they gotta do is ally with the crossfitters, Radiohead fans, and people who read Ayn Rand, and we'll never hear the end of it.
 
2021-05-08 4:02:56 PM  

Mithiwithi: proteus_b: Froman: You can't afford fresh vegetables and quality protein sources on food stamps. What's the cost of 600 calories via a Swanson dinner vs. baked chicken with root veggies and salad, for instance? Not to mention the hours you need to work just to make rent these days.

Well, having just finished an eight month period where I wasn't able to work, neither to collect unemployment, I would say that eating food that I prepared is certainly more economical (than eating out or eating "prepared dinners").

Does that include the cost of your labor in cooking your own food? Say, if you spent a half hour preparing a meal, add $3.00 to the cost.

(This is assuming that your labor is valued at minimum wage, then deducting the five minutes to put a TV dinner in the microwave to make a fair comparison with the prepared food.)


Also if you work two jobs+/care for kids your time is at a premium, especially if you want to do things like sleep between shifts.
 
2021-05-08 4:03:15 PM  

yohohogreengiant: Why does the commie have to perpetually school the libertarian on economic basics?


You know how atheists tend to know way more about religion than the religious do? Same thing.
 
2021-05-08 4:03:59 PM  
I like meat and dairy, and eat them both.
I do not want the government promoting either at my expense.
I don't mind the government providing health and nutrition education as a public service, but they should stay away from promoting specific industries products over others.
Seems like a reasonable position.
 
2021-05-08 4:09:55 PM  
I mean they're not entirely wrong.  The USDA and politicians are frequently bribed to promote milk then its really good for.

shiat the whole food pyramid isn't actually really based on science but how much industry paid politicians.

Not too long ago there was an article about some politician who was trying to push to only allow whole milk in schools in his state and an easy open secrets search showed his largest donors were Dairy producers and associated associations and organizations.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-05-08 4:25:59 PM  
Yeah, this has nothing to do with whether we should be consuming meat or dairy. This has to do with the government giving certain industries a market advantage when the products they sell are not ones we need to survive and do not directly better our lives or health.

/yeah, yeah, your steak last night bettered your life or whatever, cool
//why are people so obsessed with talking about steaks? it's really weird
///not at all a vegan or a vegetarian, just creeped out by how entwined with toxic masculinity eating steak is.
 
2021-05-08 4:27:18 PM  

Mithiwithi: proteus_b: Froman: You can't afford fresh vegetables and quality protein sources on food stamps. What's the cost of 600 calories via a Swanson dinner vs. baked chicken with root veggies and salad, for instance? Not to mention the hours you need to work just to make rent these days.

Well, having just finished an eight month period where I wasn't able to work, neither to collect unemployment, I would say that eating food that I prepared is certainly more economical (than eating out or eating "prepared dinners").

Does that include the cost of your labor in cooking your own food? Say, if you spent a half hour preparing a meal, add $3.00 to the cost.

(This is assuming that your labor is valued at minimum wage, then deducting the five minutes to put a TV dinner in the microwave to make a fair comparison with the prepared food.)


There's that, and a lot of poor folks simply don't have the time at all. After 60 hours a week to make rent you don't want to deal with that. I've seen lots of cheapo prepared meals, honestly cheaper than I could cook for myself.

Also, where they live, any fresh food comes at a real premium. In the mountain town I'm in, that's also true. At the closest grocery, anything fresh and whole is pretty expensive but microwave dinners and frozen pizza are pretty much what they cost anywhere. That's pretty indicative of poor neighborhoods as well.

I'll grant one part of the argument - food justice is also about education. You do need to teach people how to shop well, how to make complete meals and serve proper portions so you aren't wasting food just to feel full up. Independent food co-ops try to work on this cause as much as they can. Some things are premium priced to subsidize the generics and staples that they know the lower income folks are buying and many run free programs to teach cooking and provide guidance. Honestly, any kind of social justice requires this two-fold approach. Same with homelessness. Just giving people money or an apartment without teaching them how to take care of it and live harmoniously with others is half-assed.
 
2021-05-08 4:32:28 PM  

skyotter: I work with USDA meal programs, including the National School Lunch Program (NSLP).

Every meal component has allowable alternates for health or religious exemptions.  If a student can't eat pork, wheat, peanut butter, strawberries, whatever, the meal provider has to provide an alternate.  (Note that the "protein" component is literally called MMA, Meat and Meat Alternates.)  Alternates are required for all components.

All components, except for dairy.  If a student can't have dairy for health or religious reasons, providers can just waive the requirement.  There is no allowable alternate to dairy. The kid can have water, and like it.

That alone shows that the regulations were written either by dairy producers, or legislators owned by dairy producers.


Remember the old "Four Basic Food Groups"
Meat
Dairy
Grains
Fruits and Vegetables

Largely designed and propagandized by the meat and dairy industries.
 
2021-05-08 4:32:55 PM  
Csb: I actually use more dairy now because I bake a lot. Oh and the white Russians
 
2021-05-08 4:39:28 PM  
Now that I think of it, remember when Michelle Obama's designated First Lady Cause was exercise and better nutrition? They tried to put more veggies, fruit, and whole grains in school cafeterias. The pizza and frozen potato lobbyists had a shiat hemorrhage while giving birth top  porcupine. As soon as the Angry Creamsicle was ensconced in the Now Really, Really White House they got all those nasty Socialist healthy food requirements tossed and made sure American kids were getting enough empty carbs, grease, sodium, and fake cheese at government expense.
 
2021-05-08 4:52:54 PM  
Just for that, I'm going out to have a cheeseburger with a milkshake in a few minutes.
 
2021-05-08 4:59:01 PM  

anuran: Now that I think of it, remember when Michelle Obama's designated First Lady Cause was exercise and better nutrition? They tried to put more veggies, fruit, and whole grains in school cafeterias. The pizza and frozen potato lobbyists had a shiat hemorrhage while giving birth top  porcupine. As soon as the Angry Creamsicle was ensconced in the Now Really, Really White House they got all those nasty Socialist healthy food requirements tossed and made sure American kids were getting enough empty carbs, grease, sodium, and fake cheese at government expense.


In all fairness, Michelle's doctrine was based on the batsh*t lunacy of Maxine Waters, who thinks that people are able to grow vegetable gardens in New York during the depths of winter just as easily as she can in her private garden in her San Fran gated community.

All it did was remove delicious food and replaced it with disgusting trays filled with stinking broccoli & boiled kale, which no student would eat on purpose, and lead to said stinking trays of broccoli & kale being thrown away by the ton because no one touched it.

Students throw away millions when they toss lunches
Youtube I0coH8fj_0U
 
2021-05-08 5:11:44 PM  

AAAAGGGGHHHH: anuran: Now that I think of it, remember when Michelle Obama's designated First Lady Cause was exercise and better nutrition? They tried to put more veggies, fruit, and whole grains in school cafeterias. The pizza and frozen potato lobbyists had a shiat hemorrhage while giving birth top  porcupine. As soon as the Angry Creamsicle was ensconced in the Now Really, Really White House they got all those nasty Socialist healthy food requirements tossed and made sure American kids were getting enough empty carbs, grease, sodium, and fake cheese at government expense.

In all fairness, Michelle's doctrine was based on the batsh*t lunacy of Maxine Waters, who thinks that people are able to grow vegetable gardens in New York during the depths of winter just as easily as she can in her private garden in her San Fran gated community.

All it did was remove delicious food and replaced it with disgusting trays filled with stinking broccoli & boiled kale, which no student would eat on purpose, and lead to said stinking trays of broccoli & kale being thrown away by the ton because no one touched it.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/I0coH8fj​_0U]


Truly one of your worse strawmen. Be best.
 
2021-05-08 5:21:53 PM  
MST3K - Uncle Jim's Dairy Farm
Youtube rFRS3LMgFfM
 
2021-05-08 5:22:23 PM  

anuran: Now that I think of it, remember when Michelle Obama's designated First Lady Cause was exercise and better nutrition? They tried to put more veggies, fruit, and whole grains in school cafeterias. The pizza and frozen potato lobbyists had a shiat hemorrhage while giving birth top  porcupine. As soon as the Angry Creamsicle was ensconced in the Now Really, Really White House they got all those nasty Socialist healthy food requirements tossed and made sure American kids were getting enough empty carbs, grease, sodium, and fake cheese at government expense.


Anything to own the libs, including keeping healthy food out of schools and stuffing kids full of addictive, salty, sweet garbage that will ensure having plenty of future customers for these products. Imagine making your child sick just to own the Obamas. Hard to imagine the human potential lost due to poor childhood nutrition.

And fake cheese, that's the worst. Much of it is just palm oil. A vegan eating that and calling themselves "cruelty free" is just absurd.
 
2021-05-08 5:25:33 PM  
The guy who wrote
 
2021-05-08 5:26:33 PM  
The guy who wrote the article is a food lawyer. I wish I knew him years ago when that carrot sued me. Took me for everything, that beta-carotene son-of-a-biatch.
 
2021-05-08 5:30:14 PM  
I was assured in the 60's that if we didn't stop using fertilizer and pesticides, and switch to small high intensity veggie and macrobiotic farms the entire planet would be incapable of supporting life by now.
 
2021-05-08 5:33:57 PM  
Are these coal burning vegans or the socialist kind?
 
2021-05-08 5:34:24 PM  
Do these generic commercials even do anything?  I saw a commercial once for plastics.  Not any specific thing that happened to be plastic, but plastics in general.  It didn't make me want to buy something that was made of plastic.
 
2021-05-08 5:43:09 PM  

Mithiwithi: Does that include the cost of your labor in cooking your own food? Say, if you spent a half hour preparing a meal, add $3.00 to the cost.


No I mean just food costs. If we're gonna do that though, then let me add the intangible benefit that I reap, of having lower healthcare costs (doctor, what's that? should I go to one some day?) and living longer...
 
2021-05-08 5:51:48 PM  

Froman: proteus_b: Airius: Sadly the government will underfund food stamps and drive consumers to buy processed foods for calories, like how it is today. And processed foods have higher margin ...

I don't understand --- are consumers prevented somehow from buying foods that aren't processed? Is there some sort of law requiring people to be enormous fatasses, that only more free money from Uncle Sam will prevent?

You can't afford fresh vegetables and quality protein sources on food stamps. What's the cost of 600 calories via a Swanson dinner vs. baked chicken with root veggies and salad, for instance? Not to mention the hours you need to work just to make rent these days.


Here is the exact reason WHY fresh food is more expensive in the US than processed food, and has been for decades.

FTFA: "The U.S. government currently subsidizes nine foods, corn, wheat, soybeans, rice, beer, milk, beef, peanut butter, and sunflower oil. If you think about it, these 9 foods do make up the majority of the typical American diet. And while some may see these foods as healthy, in their whole form, most of this is turned into highly processed foods."

https://spoonuniversity.com/lifestyle​/​corn-is-subsidized-by-the-governement

If only the US Government could get its' priorities right and subsidise healthy natural foods instead of what they have been doing, it would be the Swanson dinner that was expensive and the baked chicken with root veggies and salad that would be cheap.

///and a significant amount of health problems in the US would disappear.
 
2021-05-08 5:56:56 PM  

Froman: proteus_b: Airius: Sadly the government will underfund food stamps and drive consumers to buy processed foods for calories, like how it is today. And processed foods have higher margin ...

I don't understand --- are consumers prevented somehow from buying foods that aren't processed? Is there some sort of law requiring people to be enormous fatasses, that only more free money from Uncle Sam will prevent?

You can't afford fresh vegetables and quality protein sources on food stamps. What's the cost of 600 calories via a Swanson dinner vs. baked chicken with root veggies and salad, for instance? Not to mention the hours you need to work just to make rent these days.

When you give poor people money they spend it on necessities. When you give rich people money they hoard it, but that's too much thinking for libertarians.


That, and many people don't live within walking distance of a store with fresh produce.  For poor people, that pretty much dictates what they're able to eat.
 
2021-05-08 5:57:24 PM  

Do you know the way to Mordor: If only the US Government could get its' priorities right and subsidise healthy natural foods instead of what they have been doing, it would be the Swanson dinner that was expensive and the baked chicken with root veggies and salad that would be cheap.


I too would love to see that price inversion occur. I read Michael Pollan's books fifteen years ago and have tried to "eat food, not too much, mostly vegetables" ever since, but I don't think the price is the only thing keeping people fat.  For instance, the internet has made a wealth of information available to all and it hasn't made a dent in the "too much stupid" problem; in that case it may have even exacerbated the issue.
 
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