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(AFP)   Homeopathy is not a substitute for oxygen   (factcheck.afp.com) divider line
    More: PSA, Medicine, Oxygen therapy, Homeopathy, Alternative medicine, World Health Organization, Copyright, Oxygen saturation, homeopathy medicine  
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604 clicks; posted to STEM » on 06 May 2021 at 6:37 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-05-06 5:57:30 PM  
FTFA Dr. Bhaskar Bhatt, former president of Homeopathy Medical Association of India, told AFP homeopathy medicines were not a substitute for oxygen treatment for Covid-19 patients. "Homeopathy medicines given according to the patient's symptoms usually help the patient recover, but none of the medicines can replace oxygen," he said. "The capacity of lungs can be increased and improved, but if there is a lack of oxygen, it has to be supplied".

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I'm glad to see the homeopathic medical authorities and health ministries in South Asia are also repudiating this.
 
2021-05-06 6:51:38 PM  
calling homeopathy "medicine" should be flatly illegal and considered automatically fraudulent in every nation on earth.

still want to believe it's true and full of power? here, let me offer you this glass of municipal tap water, fresh from my sink! since dilution creates power this single glass of water should contain "echoes" and "memories" and "energy patterns" of every medicine that has ever existed, herbal and conventional. drink it, and never pay for medication again!

because, if homeopathy is real, every person alive who drinks regular city water should need no other medications, ever.

prove me wrong.......
 
2021-05-06 7:03:02 PM  

luna1580: here, let me offer you this glass of municipal tap water, fresh from my sink! since dilution creates power this single glass of water should contain "echoes" and "memories" and "energy patterns" of every medicine that has ever existed, herbal and conventional. drink it, and never pay for medication again!


No thanks, the deprecation of lead pipes has lowered the lead content of many regions tap water to dangerously powerful levels.  It will probably cause instant brain damage these days!
 
2021-05-06 7:05:36 PM  
Oxygen is toxic in homeopathic concentrations.
 
2021-05-06 7:06:10 PM  
That Mitchell and Webb Look: Homeopathic A&E
Youtube HMGIbOGu8q0
 
2021-05-06 7:16:01 PM  

luna1580: calling homeopathy "medicine" should be flatly illegal and considered automatically fraudulent in every nation on earth.

still want to believe it's true and full of power? here, let me offer you this glass of municipal tap water, fresh from my sink! since dilution creates power this single glass of water should contain "echoes" and "memories" and "energy patterns" of every medicine that has ever existed, herbal and conventional. drink it, and never pay for medication again!

because, if homeopathy is real, every person alive who drinks regular city water should need no other medications, ever.

prove me wrong.......


I use homeopathic medicine homeopathically.

The less I use it, the more effective it is
 
2021-05-06 7:32:27 PM  
Homeopathetic medicine.
 
2021-05-06 7:33:32 PM  

flondrix: Oxygen is toxic in homeopathic concentrations.


LOL!
 
2021-05-06 7:47:25 PM  
Homeopathy: For those for whom simply being anti-vaccine is not enough stupidity.
 
2021-05-06 8:01:12 PM  
...or anything.
 
2021-05-06 8:02:40 PM  

Snapper Carr: [Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/HMGIbOGu​8q0]


One of Mitchel and Webb's best bits and a fairly accurate summation of homoeopathy.
 
2021-05-06 8:11:09 PM  

luna1580: calling homeopathy "medicine" should be flatly illegal and considered automatically fraudulent in every nation on earth.


Difficulty: the placebo effect is real. Homeopathy falls into that category, but so do some "real" treatments like phenylephrine as a decongestant or acetaminophen for back pain. There's also the issue of products branded as "homeopathic" despite containing macroscopic quantities of active ingredients (e.g. Zicam).
 
2021-05-06 8:20:34 PM  

luna1580: calling homeopathy "medicine" should be flatly illegal and considered automatically fraudulent in every nation on earth.


It creeped me out when my pharmacist recommended homeopathic medications.

At least they were marketed in the drugstore as "homeopathic", but I suspect they may have actually contained active ingredients.
 
2021-05-06 8:22:47 PM  
Twelve. Twelve more days until I can consider myself fully vaccinated. My next door neighbor? She's using zinc.

// I have, however, been miserable in the two days since my second Moderna.
 
2021-05-06 8:46:04 PM  

mofa: Twelve. Twelve more days until I can consider myself fully vaccinated. My next door neighbor? She's using zinc.

// I have, however, been miserable in the two days since my second Moderna.


oh shiat friend, i got the 2nd moderna monday around 11am, and i spent tuesday sick to my stomach, wednesday left work with a fever of 100 and one round of throwing up, and today no more nausea but deep body aches.

i had about 30 hours of nausea after shot one as well, i am the lucky 1% i guess.....
 
2021-05-06 8:47:58 PM  

Tom Marvolo Bombadil: luna1580: here, let me offer you this glass of municipal tap water, fresh from my sink! since dilution creates power this single glass of water should contain "echoes" and "memories" and "energy patterns" of every medicine that has ever existed, herbal and conventional. drink it, and never pay for medication again!

No thanks, the deprecation of lead pipes has lowered the lead content of many regions tap water to dangerously powerful levels.  It will probably cause instant brain damage these days!


No, no, that lead cures brain damage!  But you have to shake it a special way in a 1 ppm solution placed in another 1 ppm solution, repeated 30x.
 
2021-05-06 8:50:15 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Difficulty: the placebo effect is real.


Correct.  Which is why medicine is tested in double-blind studies. And homeopathic medicines, to a pill, have shown zero difference in effectiveness compared to placebo.
 
2021-05-06 8:58:45 PM  

flondrix: luna1580: calling homeopathy "medicine" should be flatly illegal and considered automatically fraudulent in every nation on earth.

It creeped me out when my pharmacist recommended homeopathic medications.

At least they were marketed in the drugstore as "homeopathic", but I suspect they may have actually contained active ingredients.


If they're plants? They absolutely did. Plant-based medicine involves real chemicals doing real things to your body--that's why you use aloe vera gel for sunburn, or drink honey tea for a cold.

That said, TFA's quack peddler needs a kick in the nards.
 
2021-05-06 9:31:41 PM  
dara o'briain vs homeopathy - excellent clip!
Youtube DHVVKAKWXcg
 
2021-05-06 10:59:51 PM  

masterofnothing: ...or anything.


I would love for homeopathic treatment proponents, users, and believers to substitute literally anything else for oxygen.

I guarantee that homeopathic remedy would do something.
 
2021-05-06 11:23:06 PM  
Yes it is subby.

Let them die.

I'm sick and tired of these farking morons.
 
2021-05-06 11:47:30 PM  
Obvious tag under a respirator?!??
 
2021-05-06 11:59:20 PM  
just go artisanal, free-range, gluten-free to cure your ills
 
2021-05-07 6:12:01 AM  

Ivo Shandor: luna1580: calling homeopathy "medicine" should be flatly illegal and considered automatically fraudulent in every nation on earth.

Difficulty: the placebo effect is real. Homeopathy falls into that category, but so do some "real" treatments like phenylephrine as a decongestant or acetaminophen for back pain. There's also the issue of products branded as "homeopathic" despite containing macroscopic quantities of active ingredients (e.g. Zicam).


The problem with claiming sugar pills or glasses of water "work" because the placebo effect is real is that real medicine both works AND includes that same placebo effect.
 
2021-05-07 6:58:21 AM  
There's oxygen everywhere in India.

external-content.duckduckgo.comView Full Size
 
2021-05-07 10:41:40 AM  

Smackledorfer: Ivo Shandor: luna1580: calling homeopathy "medicine" should be flatly illegal and considered automatically fraudulent in every nation on earth.

Difficulty: the placebo effect is real. Homeopathy falls into that category, but so do some "real" treatments like phenylephrine as a decongestant or acetaminophen for back pain. There's also the issue of products branded as "homeopathic" despite containing macroscopic quantities of active ingredients (e.g. Zicam).

The problem with claiming sugar pills or glasses of water "work" because the placebo effect is real is that real medicine both works AND includes that same placebo effect.


Except for the examples I provided of real products on the market which did not do better than a placebo when studied. It's harder to say that homeopathic products should be taken off the market when billion-dollar pharma companies have been selling equally ineffective stuff for decades.
 
2021-05-07 10:55:14 AM  

Ivo Shandor: Smackledorfer: Ivo Shandor: luna1580: calling homeopathy "medicine" should be flatly illegal and considered automatically fraudulent in every nation on earth.

Difficulty: the placebo effect is real. Homeopathy falls into that category, but so do some "real" treatments like phenylephrine as a decongestant or acetaminophen for back pain. There's also the issue of products branded as "homeopathic" despite containing macroscopic quantities of active ingredients (e.g. Zicam).

The problem with claiming sugar pills or glasses of water "work" because the placebo effect is real is that real medicine both works AND includes that same placebo effect.

Except for the examples I provided of real products on the market which did not do better than a placebo when studied. It's harder to say that homeopathic products should be taken off the market when billion-dollar pharma companies have been selling equally ineffective stuff for decades.


I stand by everything I typed in my Weeners to you.

I'm not going to go down some strange rabbit hole of which fake products should be allowed: none of them should.

Any products making anything close to a claim should require FDA approval, and when shown ineffective at any particular claim be forced to stop claiming it, and stop being sold for that purpose.

The very fact that you found a study comparing Tylenol to a placebo is my entire point: medicine is tested with the placebo effect in mind, which is exactly why control groups use sugar pills or, more common today, other medicine that has already surpassed a placebo control group.

Perhaps I misread your post: you seemed to be defending the medicinal value of prescribing placebos as medicine because the placebo effect is real.
 
2021-05-07 11:29:27 AM  

Smackledorfer: Perhaps I misread your post: you seemed to be defending the medicinal value of prescribing placebos as medicine because the placebo effect is real.


I'm saying it's part of today's established standard of care. The Vox article I linked to mentions the ethical question this raises, and also cites another article concluding:

Prescribing placebo treatments seems to be common and is viewed as ethically permissible among the surveyed US internists and rheumatologists. Vitamins and over the counter analgesics are the most commonly used treatments. Physicians might not be fully transparent with their patients about the use of placebos and might have mixed motivations for recommending such treatments.

That's not the same as saying that I approve of it. Personally I'd like to see less bullshiat in the world, and I would be thrilled if everything "homeopathic" were to disappear from the shelves forever. But we also need to figure out how to deal with the inconvenient fact that bullshiat works to treat some conditions. Would you prefer to make those patients feel worse by denying them their sugar pills and "essence of woowoo" tinctures?
 
2021-05-07 11:41:00 AM  

Ivo Shandor: Would you prefer to make those patients feel worse by denying them their sugar pills and "essence of woowoo" tinctures?


If Tylenol doesn't work for back pain people shouldn't take it or be given it for back pain.

I guarantee you something works better than a placebo for back pain. Let's find and use that instead.

I will never support institutional use of placebos. An interesting aspect of the placebo effect is that people who know it is a placebo don't get the effect.

Open and accepted use of placebos quickly eliminates that effect in placebos, but worse it reduces the effect of real drugs, which as I said also gain a placebo effect.

Meanwhile, few studies have been done on it, but there is no reason to believe that a reverse placebo effect isn't equally powerful: that belief that a drug won't work will reduce effectiveness.

If mommy wants to give her child a sugar pill that's perfectly fine. Common knowledge that common practice is prescribing sugar pills by doctors? farking terrible. That won't ever be a net positive.

We struggle to convince a third of the nation that vaccines work. Any proposal that we openly embrace placebos would be devastating.
 
2021-05-07 12:01:01 PM  

Smackledorfer: I will never support institutional use of placebos. An interesting aspect of the placebo effect is that people who know it is a placebo don't get the effect.


You should read that recent Vox article which says otherwise.
 
2021-05-07 12:24:03 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Smackledorfer: I will never support institutional use of placebos. An interesting aspect of the placebo effect is that people who know it is a placebo don't get the effect.

You should read that recent Vox article which says otherwise.


I do have a degree in psychology fwiw, it isn't like I woke up this morning and am throwing around shower thoughts myself. You'll forgive me if I don't throw away knowledge imparted by professors and textbooks based on what (again I haven't read that link so maybe it is the exception to the rule) is a popular journalist's interpretation of a short description of one study, as most science found in popular journalism is.

Ok, I'll go read it before I post again. It better not just be trash.
 
2021-05-07 12:49:29 PM  
I read it and remain skeptical.

How many in the three group study truly understood and believed the placebo was actually a placebo? People actively in studies often distrust the things told them. That's part of what makes all of this hard to study.

Regardless, I'll repeat my previous statement for you: medicine that works is superior to placebos because it includes the placebo effect plus an actual medicinal effect.

It showed a mere 70% vs 54% showing a small improvement on a 500 point scale. 54% literally getting no placebo at all improved significantly. I won't lie, that throws a big question into the mix: why is a no treatment group seeing improvement on a chronic condition?

I suspect the answer lies in other long-known aspects of medical care, mentioned in your article, about other things like kindness and attention shown by staff. So was, then, the placebo group getting slightly more time and attention?

Then, of course, per standard journalism science bias, it dismissed the third group, the double blind, as merely comparable to the open placebo group. What does comparable mean?


Oh, and here we go, "Expectations is just you believing that something is going to work," says Darwin Guevarra, a researcher who studies the impact of placebos on emotion regulation at Michigan State University. In his studies - and in many of Kaptchuk's - expectations are set by education. Study participants are taught about the placebo effect and are told open-label placebos could help."

They are literally still being mislead about placebos when they are told the placebo will work. A meta placebo effect is still a placebo effect.

I stopped reading as it got to conditioning. You can never, ever claim you aren't misleading the population about medicine when you are using conditioning they likely don't understand.

Now, if your ethics say all that is fine, you can argue for it. But then you don't get to tell me you want less bullshiat and homeopathy. Throughout the article it was clear their "open placebos" was presented as "here is this term, presented by doctors and nurses in a study, and it could help you". That's not an open placebo. It's just a different type of trick. I don't deny the value of the trick - I argue the trick can be combined with actual treatment.

Beyond all that, those are individual studies. That doesn't at all disprove the overall concern of a population completely losing faith in modern medicine to a deleterious extent. That's not a risk I'm on board with. Not that anybody asked more nor will ask me. Medicine will certainly go where it goes without my approval :)


What would convince me would be a study with medicine X, where medicine X was previously shown beating a placebo in a double blind study. This follow up study would involve people being told the medicine was the medicine, and being told the medicine was the placebo - and not with friendly, conflating placebo effects like saying it could help, but as close to a clear statement of uselessness as possible. Because that is the concern.

Provided that study showed no reduced efficacy for the medicine vs existing studies, you'd have me convinced there was no harm in embracing placebos.
 
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