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(Twitter)   See, THIS is how you retroactively turn a throwaway line into a meaningful bit of dialogue. Subby's a little mad he hadn't realized this before   (twitter.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, shot  
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2578 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 22 Apr 2021 at 2:20 PM (3 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



40 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-04-22 10:05:20 AM  
Original Tweet:

 
2021-04-22 10:35:04 AM  
Darth Maul disagrees...
 
2021-04-22 10:48:34 AM  
This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.
 
2021-04-22 11:11:09 AM  
Vader says the exact same thing to Luke in Empire Strikes Back, Luke doesn't have the high ground and Vader immediately follows by saying 'You have learned to control your fear'.

/your fan theories suck
 
2021-04-22 11:44:14 AM  

BigNumber12: This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.


Not only was it out of the blue, it broke the rules of its own universe, and of the specific story it had told for more than 3 movies.

We've known since the original trilogy that Jedi have the super-jump buff.  Terrain has never been a make-or-break consideration in a Jedi fight.  In fact, Star Wars usually goes out of its way to reject more modern cinematic traditions that at least play at having an awareness of tactics, in favor of emulating old stage-fighting styles of combat in swashbuckling movies from Lucas's childhood. And then you have that weird sort of ludonarrative dissonance where Obi-Wan's boast just doesn't make sense in the context of the last 15 minutes of acrobatic fighting on top of floating pedestals above a lava pit.

There's no setup that will make that less ham-fisted when the rules of their universe said for 30 years that this shiat shouldn't matter.  You can't rule-of-three that away.  Because any time you mention it, people are going to rightly ask, "yeah, but why does that matter?"
 
2021-04-22 11:51:24 AM  

Nuuu: BigNumber12: This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.

Not only was it out of the blue, it broke the rules of its own universe, and of the specific story it had told for more than 3 movies.

We've known since the original trilogy that Jedi have the super-jump buff.  Terrain has never been a make-or-break consideration in a Jedi fight.  In fact, Star Wars usually goes out of its way to reject more modern cinematic traditions that at least play at having an awareness of tactics, in favor of emulating old stage-fighting styles of combat in swashbuckling movies from Lucas's childhood. And then you have that weird sort of ludonarrative dissonance where Obi-Wan's boast just doesn't make sense in the context of the last 15 minutes of acrobatic fighting on top of floating pedestals above a lava pit.

There's no setup that will make that less ham-fisted when the rules of their universe said for 30 years that this shiat shouldn't matter.  You can't rule-of-three that away.  Because any time you mention it, people are going to rightly ask, "yeah, but why does that matter?"


That's a fantastic elaboration on why it bugged me - thanks!
 
2021-04-22 12:07:10 PM  
George Lucas had a good idea borrowing a Japanese samurai moving and setting it in space. After that it should've been taken over by competent writers and directors
 
2021-04-22 2:09:08 PM  
Obi Wan Takes The High Ground | Robot Chicken | Adult Swim
Youtube B7FMh3YtK_w
 
2021-04-22 2:27:15 PM  

PreMortem: Vader says the exact same thing to Luke in Empire Strikes Back, Luke doesn't have the high ground and Vader immediately follows by saying 'You have learned to control your fear'.


But the subtitles say "You have learned to control your feet".
 
2021-04-22 2:34:03 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: But the subtitles say "You have learned to control your feet".


i.makeagif.comView Full Size
 
2021-04-22 2:41:05 PM  

PreMortem: Vader says the exact same thing to Luke in Empire Strikes Back, Luke doesn't have the high ground and Vader immediately follows by saying 'You have learned to control your fear'.


Jedi learn more than one lesson, and Vader using the same verbiage to express surprise that Luke had quite quickly (and permanently, cf Ep6) learned Jedi stuff (and so quickly, cf Ep5) doesn't seem so weird.

Nuuu: BigNumber12: This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.

Not only was it out of the blue, it broke the rules of its own universe, and of the specific story it had told for more than 3 movies.

We've known since the original trilogy that Jedi have the super-jump buff.  Terrain has never been a make-or-break consideration in a Jedi fight. In fact, Star Wars usually goes out of its way to reject more modern cinematic traditions that at least play at having an awareness of tactics, in favor of emulating old stage-fighting styles of combat in swashbuckling movies from Lucas's childhood. And then you have that weird sort of ludonarrative dissonance where Obi-Wan's boast just doesn't make sense in the context of the last 15 minutes of acrobatic fighting on top of floating pedestals above a lava pit.

There's no setup that will make that less ham-fisted when the rules of their universe said for 30 years that this shiat shouldn't matter.  You can't rule-of-three that away.  Because any time you mention it, people are going to rightly ask, "yeah, but why does that matter?"


Except in the Darth Maul fight - which, ironically, SHOULD have gone the way of Ani/Obi for Qui-Gon due to the narrowness of the opening he had to clear; while IIRC Ani had a bit more room to either side (and didn't have to try and hurdle Obi). Also IIRC it was a bit more narrow front-to-back landing strip, meaning Ani had to float his landing (like a QB trying a teardop pass to the back corner of the endzone).

// I mean, when you type sentences this nerdy, a sports analogy helps reestablish non-nerd cred
// what am I saying, this is Fark
 
2021-04-22 3:01:23 PM  
Oh look supernatural god belief type thinking on display in article . What an excellent example of child like thinking they have going on there.
 
2021-04-22 3:31:10 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Except in the Darth Maul fight - which, ironically, SHOULD have gone the way of Ani/Obi for Qui-Gon due to the narrowness of the opening he had to clear; while IIRC Ani had a bit more room to either side (and didn't have to try and hurdle Obi). Also IIRC it was a bit more narrow front-to-back landing strip, meaning Ani had to float his landing (like a QB trying a teardop pass to the back corner of the endzone).

// I mean, when you type sentences this nerdy, a sports analogy helps reestablish non-nerd cred
// what am I saying, this is Fark


I see that as somewhat different than a terrain issue.  It's more of a literal "cliffhanger" than a tactical position.  It could be Luke dangling from the antenna, or Han dangling on the edge of the Sarlacc pit.  The specifics matter less than creating the perception of a desperate, no-win situation.  But the "high ground" comment is definitely not a cliffhanger.  It's simply an observation of a supposed tactical truism that never, ever mattered before.  And, it didn't actually matter against Darth Maul either.  That's the problem.

My theory is that Lucas originally envisioned the Darth Maul maneuver to be the setup for the Anakin/Obi-Wan fight's payoff.  But the idiotic rules of movie morality wouldn't allow that.  Because if it were a true parallel, then Obi-Wan would be in the Darth Maul position, and Anakin would be dangling over lava.  But the hero can't win through a "surrender or die!" scenario, which that would be.

The rule is, the hero needs to beat the villain in a fair fight, then the hero has to offer surrender/mercy without any hint of physical threat or coercion, then the villain has to reject the offer (usually by leaping up to make one final desperate attack), and only then can the hero maim or kill the villain, usually by redirecting the villain's own attack so there's no doubt that the villain brought their death upon themselves.  Think Sam Raimi's Spiderman against the Green Goblin, or Beast and Gaston in Beauty and the Beast, or Dick Jones and Robocop, etc.

You could even imagine that the "high ground" comment was meta-commentary.  Obi-Wan had the (moral) high ground, meaning, he couldn't kill Anakin until they'd satisfied the requisite moral formalities.  Anakin's like, "gotcha fam.  I acknowledge receipt of your offer of peaceful surrender and serve my formal rejection thereto. Shall we continue?"  And then they did.
 
2021-04-22 3:38:00 PM  
Well subby got one thing right "throwaway".
 
2021-04-22 3:49:47 PM  
Nuuu

I never quite got the problem with Obi telling Anakin that the fight was over - in my understanding, the comment is less about him having the high ground (moral or literal), and more about the fight being over anyway since the only thing Anakin was fighting for at that point was killing Obi-Wan - and given their current situations (Anakin on a disintegrating floating thingy over lava, Obi-Wan on solid ground), that was not going to happen at that moment.

So Ani, being the pissed-off cocksure Lucas-idiot that he was, figured Obi-Wan wasn't going to kill him - and then dared him to do just that (giving up their entire friendship, which Ani had already done) by jumping DIRECTLY OVER his head instead of to either side, where he had room.

I admit it's a bit of work to make it seem not as dumb (my bigger problem is that he goes from "anything for Padme" to choking her in like 15 minutes of screen time).

// either that or Ani figured it was a fight to the death anyway, and since Palpatine had conquered death already he'd roll the dice
// not figuring on a) not actually being killed by Obi-Wan, and 2) that the Emperor would keep him half-alive and lie to him about Padme/the kids (presumably, Ani understood what we find out later from Ben/Rey, that the Emperor could have Force-healed him, at least a little)
 
2021-04-22 4:21:45 PM  

whither_apophis: George Lucas had a good idea borrowing a Japanese samurai moving and setting it in space. After that it should've been taken over by competent writers and directors


Can we go back to Kendo-style swordfighting, with the slower pace and the long pauses before a brief flurry of strikes, again?  The OT fight scenes were iconic and made everyone love lightsabers.

Then they hired Ray Park as Darth Maul in Ep 1, and suddenly everyone had to fight as spinny death balls that bounced all over the place.

This is why the best lightsaber fight scenes we've had since the OT were Vader walking through the Republic ship's hallway in Rogue One, and Luke showing up at the end of Season 2 of The Mandalorian.  They both went back to that old aesthetic, of Force-wielders being titanic, unstoppable forces, not ADHD ninjas who've just chugged way too many energy drinks.

Sure, the prequels had the Duel of the Fates scene, and then it all went downhill.  Everyone remembers that first fight scene, nobody remembers the rest, other than the dumb "I have the high ground" bit, and that only for the dumb dialogue.

Plus, it gave us Jedi fighting like idiots like this;

i.imgur.comView Full Size


That shiat's silly.  Stop it.  The sequel trilogy largely got around this, even if it has other issues.
 
2021-04-22 4:50:23 PM  

Nuuu: BigNumber12: This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.

Not only was it out of the blue, it broke the rules of its own universe, and of the specific story it had told for more than 3 movies.

We've known since the original trilogy that Jedi have the super-jump buff.  Terrain has never been a make-or-break consideration in a Jedi fight.  In fact, Star Wars usually goes out of its way to reject more modern cinematic traditions that at least play at having an awareness of tactics, in favor of emulating old stage-fighting styles of combat in swashbuckling movies from Lucas's childhood. And then you have that weird sort of ludonarrative dissonance where Obi-Wan's boast just doesn't make sense in the context of the last 15 minutes of acrobatic fighting on top of floating pedestals above a lava pit.

There's no setup that will make that less ham-fisted when the rules of their universe said for 30 years that this shiat shouldn't matter.  You can't rule-of-three that away.  Because any time you mention it, people are going to rightly ask, "yeah, but why does that matter?"


what still pisses me off about that scene is Obi-Wan has already been dogged by the survival of Darth Maul because he didn't make sure he was DEAD. this theme is revisited a few times etc but Maul being the big one. So what happens, Obi-Wan slices and dices Ani. not only does he leave him alive, he lets him essentially burn to death. his brother, the one he just says he loved. He leaves him bleeding out and being consumed by lava
 
2021-04-22 4:50:56 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Nuuu

I never quite got the problem with Obi telling Anakin that the fight was over - in my understanding, the comment is less about him having the high ground (moral or literal), and more about the fight being over anyway since the only thing Anakin was fighting for at that point was killing Obi-Wan - and given their current situations (Anakin on a disintegrating floating thingy over lava, Obi-Wan on solid ground), that was not going to happen at that moment.

So Ani, being the pissed-off cocksure Lucas-idiot that he was, figured Obi-Wan wasn't going to kill him - and then dared him to do just that (giving up their entire friendship, which Ani had already done) by jumping DIRECTLY OVER his head instead of to either side, where he had room.

I admit it's a bit of work to make it seem not as dumb (my bigger problem is that he goes from "anything for Padme" to choking her in like 15 minutes of screen time).

// either that or Ani figured it was a fight to the death anyway, and since Palpatine had conquered death already he'd roll the dice
// not figuring on a) not actually being killed by Obi-Wan, and 2) that the Emperor would keep him half-alive and lie to him about Padme/the kids (presumably, Ani understood what we find out later from Ben/Rey, that the Emperor could have Force-healed him, at least a little)


The latter seasons of Clone Wars do a nice job of filling in some of the details as to why Anikin soured on the Jedi and was ultimately turned by Palpatine, but it doesn't do anything to make that fight scene any less bone-headed.
 
2021-04-22 5:12:40 PM  

Endus: whither_apophis: George Lucas had a good idea borrowing a Japanese samurai moving and setting it in space. After that it should've been taken over by competent writers and directors

Can we go back to Kendo-style swordfighting, with the slower pace and the long pauses before a brief flurry of strikes, again?  The OT fight scenes were iconic and made everyone love lightsabers.

Then they hired Ray Park as Darth Maul in Ep 1, and suddenly everyone had to fight as spinny death balls that bounced all over the place.

This is why the best lightsaber fight scenes we've had since the OT were Vader walking through the Republic ship's hallway in Rogue One, and Luke showing up at the end of Season 2 of The Mandalorian.  They both went back to that old aesthetic, of Force-wielders being titanic, unstoppable forces, not ADHD ninjas who've just chugged way too many energy drinks.

Sure, the prequels had the Duel of the Fates scene, and then it all went downhill.  Everyone remembers that first fight scene, nobody remembers the rest, other than the dumb "I have the high ground" bit, and that only for the dumb dialogue.

Plus, it gave us Jedi fighting like idiots like this;

[i.imgur.com image 500x333]

That shiat's silly.  Stop it.  The sequel trilogy largely got around this, even if it has other issues.


We wish that were true but kids these days think THIS would have been a better fight
Star Wars SC 38 Reimagined
Youtube to2SMng4u1k
 
2021-04-22 6:17:25 PM  

Fano: We wish that were true but kids these days think THIS would have been a better fight


As someone who saw the original in theaters when it was first released... there are elements of that fight that are improvements.  The environment damage from the saber tips, the use of the Force to throw a distraction or two, that lovely reflection in the lenses of Vader's helmet.

But yes, while it's prettier, it's missing the some of soul of the original.
 
2021-04-22 6:23:30 PM  
Wait. No Gradius, no Contra? No final boss of Narc or Smash TV?

SINISTAR? Bowser?
 
2021-04-22 7:27:27 PM  

Fano: Endus: whither_apophis: George Lucas had a good idea borrowing a Japanese samurai moving and setting it in space. After that it should've been taken over by competent writers and directors

Can we go back to Kendo-style swordfighting, with the slower pace and the long pauses before a brief flurry of strikes, again?  The OT fight scenes were iconic and made everyone love lightsabers.

Then they hired Ray Park as Darth Maul in Ep 1, and suddenly everyone had to fight as spinny death balls that bounced all over the place.

This is why the best lightsaber fight scenes we've had since the OT were Vader walking through the Republic ship's hallway in Rogue One, and Luke showing up at the end of Season 2 of The Mandalorian.  They both went back to that old aesthetic, of Force-wielders being titanic, unstoppable forces, not ADHD ninjas who've just chugged way too many energy drinks.

Sure, the prequels had the Duel of the Fates scene, and then it all went downhill.  Everyone remembers that first fight scene, nobody remembers the rest, other than the dumb "I have the high ground" bit, and that only for the dumb dialogue.

Plus, it gave us Jedi fighting like idiots like this;

[i.imgur.com image 500x333]

That shiat's silly.  Stop it.  The sequel trilogy largely got around this, even if it has other issues.

We wish that were true but kids these days think THIS would have been a better fight
[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/to2SMng4​u1k]


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-04-22 7:38:11 PM  

Endus: whither_apophis: George Lucas had a good idea borrowing a Japanese samurai moving and setting it in space. After that it should've been taken over by competent writers and directors

Can we go back to Kendo-style swordfighting, with the slower pace and the long pauses before a brief flurry of strikes, again?  The OT fight scenes were iconic and made everyone love lightsabers.

Then they hired Ray Park as Darth Maul in Ep 1, and suddenly everyone had to fight as spinny death balls that bounced all over the place.

This is why the best lightsaber fight scenes we've had since the OT were Vader walking through the Republic ship's hallway in Rogue One, and Luke showing up at the end of Season 2 of The Mandalorian.  They both went back to that old aesthetic, of Force-wielders being titanic, unstoppable forces, not ADHD ninjas who've just chugged way too many energy drinks.

Sure, the prequels had the Duel of the Fates scene, and then it all went downhill.  Everyone remembers that first fight scene, nobody remembers the rest, other than the dumb "I have the high ground" bit, and that only for the dumb dialogue.

Plus, it gave us Jedi fighting like idiots like this;

[i.imgur.com image 500x333]

That shiat's silly.  Stop it.  The sequel trilogy largely got around this, even if it has other issues.


I loved both those scenes you're talking about.  They're a little fan service-y, sure, but they provide a sense of scale for just how badass Luke and Vader were that we just never got to see in the OT.  We only ever see them go head to head with each other so you don't get a good feel for how powerful they are compared to everyone else.  Man was it fun watching Luke tear through a small army of super droids like they were paper.

The lightsaber stuff just got ridiculous with the prequels.  One of the things I liked most about TFA is how they steered away from that pretty hard.  The lightsaber battles felt like actual life and death battles instead of highly choreographed acrobatic light shows.  I particularly liked when Finn tried fighting with the lightsaber. He did exactly what you'd expect someone with no mele weapon training to do, he picks it up and just starts artlessly hacking away.
 
2021-04-22 7:41:38 PM  

Endus: whither_apophis: George Lucas had a good idea borrowing a Japanese samurai moving and setting it in space. After that it should've been taken over by competent writers and directors

Can we go back to Kendo-style swordfighting, with the slower pace and the long pauses before a brief flurry of strikes, again?  The OT fight scenes were iconic and made everyone love lightsabers.

Then they hired Ray Park as Darth Maul in Ep 1, and suddenly everyone had to fight as spinny death balls that bounced all over the place.

This is why the best lightsaber fight scenes we've had since the OT were Vader walking through the Republic ship's hallway in Rogue One, and Luke showing up at the end of Season 2 of The Mandalorian.  They both went back to that old aesthetic, of Force-wielders being titanic, unstoppable forces, not ADHD ninjas who've just chugged way too many energy drinks.

Sure, the prequels had the Duel of the Fates scene, and then it all went downhill.  Everyone remembers that first fight scene, nobody remembers the rest, other than the dumb "I have the high ground" bit, and that only for the dumb dialogue.

Plus, it gave us Jedi fighting like idiots like this;

[i.imgur.com image 500x333] [View Full Size image _x_]

That shiat's silly.  Stop it.  The sequel trilogy largely got around this, even if it has other issues.


No, the best lightsaber battle is this one:

Darth Maul vs Obi-Wan | Star Wars Rebels | Disney XD
Youtube jeG215-yu-k
 
2021-04-22 7:56:46 PM  

Fano: Wait. No Gradius, no Contra? No final boss of Narc or Smash TV?

SINISTAR? Bowser?


I had both links open at the same time too. That made your comment even more confusing.
 
2021-04-22 8:04:13 PM  
Whut? Are people just now realizing this or something?
My god....is it really that simple, or am I missing something?
 
2021-04-22 8:07:33 PM  
I never thought of that as a throwawy line. As a child, it was a major moment in the whole trilogy for me.
 
2021-04-22 9:57:13 PM  
Vader: "Obi-wan has taught you well." 

Luke" "Actually, it was Yoda who trained me. Obi-wan only showed me how to block a remote, and how to handle a lightsaber without killing myself. That's about it."

static3.cbrimages.comView Full Size
 
2021-04-22 10:09:50 PM  

Nuuu: You could even imagine that the "high ground" comment was meta-commentary.  Obi-Wan had the (moral) high ground, meaning, he couldn't kill Anakin until they'd satisfied the requisite moral formalities.  Anakin's like, "gotcha fam.  I acknowledge receipt of your offer of peaceful surrender and serve my formal rejection thereto. Shall we continue?"  And then they did.


It's surely mostly metaphor, isn't it? Obi Wan telling Anakin he's in the wrong.

Fano: We wish that were true but kids these days think THIS would have been a better fight


I think I'm right in saying SW would have been vastly improved with this dialogue.

Darth Vader is Coming to America HD
Youtube DXze55Z2GuY
 
2021-04-22 10:40:11 PM  

Nuuu: BigNumber12: This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.

Not only was it out of the blue, it broke the rules of its own universe, and of the specific story it had told for more than 3 movies.

We've known since the original trilogy that Jedi have the super-jump buff.  Terrain has never been a make-or-break consideration in a Jedi fight.  In fact, Star Wars usually goes out of its way to reject more modern cinematic traditions that at least play at having an awareness of tactics, in favor of emulating old stage-fighting styles of combat in swashbuckling movies from Lucas's childhood. And then you have that weird sort of ludonarrative dissonance where Obi-Wan's boast just doesn't make sense in the context of the last 15 minutes of acrobatic fighting on top of floating pedestals above a lava pit.

There's no setup that will make that less ham-fisted when the rules of their universe said for 30 years that this shiat shouldn't matter.  You can't rule-of-three that away.  Because any time you mention it, people are going to rightly ask, "yeah, but why does that matter?"


I interpreted it to be some kind of light side/ dark side metaphorical jab.
 
2021-04-22 11:57:00 PM  

BigNumber12: This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.


It felt like it was supposed to be the payoff of something whose setup and confirmation scenes got cut.

Which... may or may not be the case?  Lucas does have a tendency to over-produce in exactly that fashion when not reined in, but the other setup that was missing was the entire relationship between the two men that the duel was supposed to be the emotional payoff for, which couldn't possibly have all landed on the cutting room floor, so... eh?

Like, the thing that setting it up properly would have theoretically illustrated was that they were battle-brothers or whatever, and knew each other so well that they could predict how a duel would go several moves in advance (with the punchline being that Ben actually did understand their relationship that well while Anakin had come to fundamentally not understand it, y'know, because the Sith's perception of reality is an intentional self-delusion).  If that relationship had been visible in the movie in general it wouldn't have been as much of a big deal if this particular manifestation of it wasn't set up specifically.  Instead we got two completely isolated characters who were, like... vaguely positive on each other but never worked together or relied on each other to any greater degree than they did any other side character.  There was no relationship ever established that losing it was going to have any impact, regardless of how well or poorly the loss was executed in the technical writing sense.
 
2021-04-23 12:56:06 AM  
Also has anyone pointed out that Luke turns off his lightsaber right before that line, and Darth was referring to Luke controlling his anger and fear?


Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (Whole Fight)
Youtube U1MnMA0TzGI
 
2021-04-23 5:05:54 AM  

whither_apophis: Also has anyone pointed out that Luke turns off his lightsaber right before that line, and Darth was referring to Luke controlling his anger and fear?


[YouTube video: Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader (Whole Fight)]


I always thought that line was Darth making fun of him, because after Obi dropped his lightsaber, Darth cut him down.
 
2021-04-23 5:10:07 AM  

Jim_Callahan: BigNumber12: This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.

It felt like it was supposed to be the payoff of something whose setup and confirmation scenes got cut.

Which... may or may not be the case?  Lucas does have a tendency to over-produce in exactly that fashion when not reined in, but the other setup that was missing was the entire relationship between the two men that the duel was supposed to be the emotional payoff for, which couldn't possibly have all landed on the cutting room floor, so... eh?

Like, the thing that setting it up properly would have theoretically illustrated was that they were battle-brothers or whatever, and knew each other so well that they could predict how a duel would go several moves in advance (with the punchline being that Ben actually did understand their relationship that well while Anakin had come to fundamentally not understand it, y'know, because the Sith's perception of reality is an intentional self-delusion).  If that relationship had been visible in the movie in general it wouldn't have been as much of a big deal if this particular manifestation of it wasn't set up specifically.  Instead we got two completely isolated characters who were, like... vaguely positive on each other but never worked together or relied on each other to any greater degree than they did any other side character.  There was no relationship ever established that losing it was going to have any impact, regardless of how well or poorly the loss was executed in the technical writing sense.


The Clone Wars cartoons give you all that backstory. Obi and Anakin and Anakin's padawan fighting in wars... That whole relationship does exist, but it could never have fit in the movies.

The Clone Wars set up and help explain almost everything the prequels did such a shiat job of explaining. They still didn't explain why Anakin killed Padme.
 
2021-04-23 8:14:52 AM  

Dr Dreidel: while IIRC Ani had a bit more room to either side (and didn't have to try and hurdle Obi).


I think that was the point. If Anakin was thinking clearly he could have found another way, but in rage induced tunnel vision he saw Obi-Wan's statement as a direct challenge. He got goaded into doing something stupid.
 
2021-04-23 9:01:40 AM  
The Asohka Tano saber fights in The Mandalorian are glorious.  No spinny jumpy epileptic ligh nunchuck nonsense, and beautiful to look at.

That is all.
 
2021-04-23 11:34:36 AM  

Quantumbunny: Jim_Callahan: BigNumber12: This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.

It felt like it was supposed to be the payoff of something whose setup and confirmation scenes got cut.

Which... may or may not be the case?  Lucas does have a tendency to over-produce in exactly that fashion when not reined in, but the other setup that was missing was the entire relationship between the two men that the duel was supposed to be the emotional payoff for, which couldn't possibly have all landed on the cutting room floor, so... eh?

Like, the thing that setting it up properly would have theoretically illustrated was that they were battle-brothers or whatever, and knew each other so well that they could predict how a duel would go several moves in advance (with the punchline being that Ben actually did understand their relationship that well while Anakin had come to fundamentally not understand it, y'know, because the Sith's perception of reality is an intentional self-delusion).  If that relationship had been visible in the movie in general it wouldn't have been as much of a big deal if this particular manifestation of it wasn't set up specifically.  Instead we got two completely isolated characters who were, like... vaguely positive on each other but never worked together or relied on each other to any greater degree than they did any other side character.  There was no relationship ever established that losing it was going to have any impact, regardless of how well or poorly the loss was executed in the technical writing sense.

The Clone Wars cartoons give you all that backstory. Obi and Anakin and Anakin's padawan fighting in wars... That whole relationship does exist, but it could never have fit in the movies.

The Clone Wars set up and help explain almost everything the prequels did such a shiat job of explaining. They still didn't explain why Anakin killed Padme.


Since when did Anakin kill Padme?
 
2021-04-23 5:51:10 PM  

Nuuu: We've known since the original trilogy that Jedi have the super-jump buff.


Uh...well, not really.

See, the Jedi are on a meta level the focus of Lucas' poor logic skills, but in-universe the product of a massive amount of attachment disorder caused by taking babies and raising them in large groups--no matter how loving you try to be, we already know that if you put too many kids with one caregiver, they have Serious Problems later.One of those problems is that they haven't figured out it's not jumping, it's levitation.Hypothetically, any Jedi could just pick themselves up with the Force and turn into a mini-plane. For a fighter pilot, like Anakin, that should be really obvious! But they're using kinasthetic intelligence to control the Force in most cases--it's why they wave their hands and such--so they never stop and think logically about why it works, or how it could be modified, because they're suffering from some damage to their logical\mathematical intelligence (and emotional, dear god, watching the prequels was painful).In the prequels, Anakin and Obi-Wan are on a lavabed with no safety nets. Anakin has 'super-jump buff', but the parts of the brain controlling muscle movements say 'you can't go past X height, and if someone whacks you mid-leap you can't correct course'. So, as Obi-Wan knew, if Anakin left the ground, all Obi-Wan had to do was deflect and Anakin would fall into lava\an area where he would light on fire. Guess what happened?With the linked scene, Vader has scar tissue everywhere, artificial and badly-measured limbs (he's like a foot taller than he should be), and stiff armor. He never jumps in the movies, and I think that's because he can't do it without pain. So when Luke jumps, Vader assumes Obi-Wan just taught him to climb a tree or something because Vader can't follow easily (though probably if it were important enough by Vader's reckoning, he'd jump anyway). Vader never really figures out that he doesn't need to jump in the first place.Now if there were one thing I'd have loved from the sequels--other than the character concepts not being executed and put up on pikes as a warning to anyone who thought they were getting actual artistic entertainment--it'd be Luke, the fighter pilot who also has a relatively healthy brain, figuring out you can actually do all kinds of things with the Force, not just what the Jedi did. But alas, Disney went for scriptwriters who were idiots, and here we are.
 
2021-04-23 5:54:09 PM  
(Holy dear god what happened to my formatting.)

Uh...well, not really.

See, the Jedi are on a meta level the focus of Lucas' poor logic skills, but in-universe the product of a massive amount of attachment disorder caused by taking babies and raising them in large groups--no matter how loving you try to be, we already know that if you put too many kids with one caregiver, they have Serious Problems later.

One of those problems is that they haven't figured out it's not jumping, it's levitation.Hypothetically, any Jedi could just pick themselves up with the Force and turn into a mini-plane. For a fighter pilot, like Anakin, that should be really obvious! But they're using kinasthetic intelligence to control the Force in most cases--it's why they wave their hands and such--so they never stop and think logically about why it works, or how it could be modified, because they're suffering from some damage to their logical\mathematical intelligence (and emotional, dear god, watching the prequels was painful)

In the prequels, Anakin and Obi-Wan are on a lavabed with no safety nets. Anakin has 'super-jump buff', but the parts of the brain controlling muscle movements say 'you can't go past X height, and if someone whacks you mid-leap you can't correct course'. So, as Obi-Wan knew, if Anakin left the ground, all Obi-Wan had to do was deflect and Anakin would fall into lava\an area where he would light on fire. Guess what happened?

With the linked scene, Vader has scar tissue everywhere, artificial and badly-measured limbs (he's like a foot taller than he should be), and stiff armor. He never jumps in the movies, and I think that's because he can't do it without pain. So when Luke jumps, Vader assumes Obi-Wan just taught him to climb a tree or something because Vader can't follow easily (though probably if it were important enough by Vader's reckoning, he'd jump anyway). Vader never really figures out that he doesn't need to jump in the first place.

Now if there were one thing I'd have loved from the sequels--other than the character concepts not being executed and put up on pikes as a warning to anyone who thought they were getting actual artistic entertainment--it'd be Luke, the fighter pilot who also has a relatively healthy brain, figuring out you can actually do all kinds of things with the Force, not just what the Jedi did. But alas, Disney went for scriptwriters who were idiots, and here we are.

/reposting so it's readable
//sorry, I didn't know Fark was even capable of eating spacing like that...
 
2021-04-23 6:10:07 PM  

Nuuu: BigNumber12: This would be cooler if the "I've got the high ground" bit hadn't been done so abruptly and ham-fistedly in Ep. III. It felt completely forced and cheesy, introduced out of the blue, but in such a way as to suggest that it had been some long-running training point that the movies just never bothered to mention before.

Not only was it out of the blue, it broke the rules of its own universe, and of the specific story it had told for more than 3 movies.

We've known since the original trilogy that Jedi have the super-jump buff.  Terrain has never been a make-or-break consideration in a Jedi fight.  In fact, Star Wars usually goes out of its way to reject more modern cinematic traditions that at least play at having an awareness of tactics, in favor of emulating old stage-fighting styles of combat in swashbuckling movies from Lucas's childhood. And then you have that weird sort of ludonarrative dissonance where Obi-Wan's boast just doesn't make sense in the context of the last 15 minutes of acrobatic fighting on top of floating pedestals above a lava pit.

There's no setup that will make that less ham-fisted when the rules of their universe said for 30 years that this shiat shouldn't matter.  You can't rule-of-three that away.  Because any time you mention it, people are going to rightly ask, "yeah, but why does that matter?"


Psychological cockwaving, basically.
 
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