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(NPR)   DOJ to investigate Minneapolis Police for possible patterns of excessive force, timing of horses and barn doors   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Followup, Police, U.S. Justice Department, Law, Crime, Criminal justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, police department, Constable  
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1402 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 21 Apr 2021 at 12:05 PM (2 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-04-21 11:45:08 AM  
Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.
 
2021-04-21 12:07:55 PM  
Remember when people said there wasn't much of a difference between Trump winning and Joe winning?

/Eat shiat, assholes.
 
2021-04-21 12:08:22 PM  

kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.


Or at least make them carry malpractice insurance.
 
2021-04-21 12:08:52 PM  
Good.   Thank god Merrick Garland got confirmed.
 
2021-04-21 12:10:07 PM  
Hopefully they convict every single one of them.
Also, ban police unions.
 
2021-04-21 12:10:43 PM  
Great!!
Now do every other police dept.
 
2021-04-21 12:10:46 PM  
You can thank Eric Holder's DOJ for this process. However late it is perceived to be -- can probably thank Bill Barr's DOJ for that -- it is still fundamental that it is completed and acted upon.
 
2021-04-21 12:12:30 PM  
Anyone who slow walks the real middle syllable of the state's name is not going to fully cooperate with this.
 
2021-04-21 12:13:32 PM  
But if you look at the silver lining Minneapolis also makes up 20% off all the police actually convicted of murder from the last 40 years. Perspective!
 
2021-04-21 12:16:08 PM  

kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.


Don't even need to do that.   Give the unions control of the Police pension fund, BUT make all misconduct settlements something the pension fund picks up the tab for.   Or as someone suggested, set aside a pool of money every year that encompasses the amount of cops' routine raises and an bit more for bonuses/ awards etc.   Again pay all misconduct judgments out of that pool.  Anything left over goes to the officers.


How quickly would the blue wall crumble when cops realized that looking the other way when Officer Roid Rage or Sgt Drunky McDrunkerson broke the law would end up costing THEM personally
 
2021-04-21 12:16:49 PM  
Apparently union workers with workplace protections and who make a living wage is bad now.

It would help if they didn't act like they were going on patrol in Afghanistan.

For instance, unless they are MPs, they are civilians.
 
2021-04-21 12:17:57 PM  
MPD tried to sweep George Floyd under the rug. If not for the worldwide outrage, they wouldve been happy to keep Chauvin on the force... much less charge him for any crimes.

Thats where I'd start the investigation.
 
2021-04-21 12:18:18 PM  

kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.


Police unions are almost non-existent in the South. In general, Southern states don't have collective bargaining for government employees.
The whole "warrior" mindset needs to be worked out of the system. Also, the training seems to be designed to instill paranoia into how many ways they could die on a given shift.
Another thing that would really help is if we could figure out how to balance the privacy issues in automating traffic enforcement, and get the cops out of having a pretextual reason to stop a car and then go "by the way, do you mind if I search the car?"
 
2021-04-21 12:18:21 PM  

RasIanI: You can thank Eric Holder's DOJ for this process. However late it is perceived to be -- can probably thank Bill Barr's DOJ for that -- it is still fundamental that it is completed and acted upon.


Attorney General Jefferson Davis Beauregard Sessions III not only gutted this part of the civil rights divisions' mission and told cops it was open season, he even tried to undo pending consent decrees with places like Baltimore that admitted they were badly in need of reform and monitoring.
 
2021-04-21 12:21:14 PM  

whidbey: Good.   Thank god Merrick Garland got confirmed.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-04-21 12:22:20 PM  

kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.


Everyone has the right to belong to a union. Once you start saying that police can't be members of a union, you lose me.

However, police unions are scum of the earth. So the simplest solution to make us both happy is to have a combined union for police, firefighters and EMTs.

I don't know if the police would come to dominate this structure, but it's all I've got.
 
2021-04-21 12:23:03 PM  
Has any past investigations by the DOJ resulted in anything but high fives?
I'm thinking we need to promote Keith Ellison and get something real done.
He has already done it once.
 
2021-04-21 12:23:39 PM  
All existing officers should be photographed, as they do for arrestees. Carefully document their tattoos. Many get inked after their first kill on duty.
/oops there I go having an opinion- sorry mods
 
2021-04-21 12:23:40 PM  

kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.


Bob Kroll, the prior MSP police union head (resigned in Jan 2021):

Fark user imageView Full Size


He called Floyd a violent criminal and the protestors terrorists.
 
2021-04-21 12:23:49 PM  

TheGreatGazoo: Apparently union workers with workplace protections and who make a living wage is bad now.

It would help if they didn't act like they were going on patrol in Afghanistan.

For instance, unless they are MPs, they are civilians.


You'll find that the rules of engagement for soldiers on patrol in Afghanistan are far stricter than for police in an American city.
 
2021-04-21 12:27:04 PM  
Adam Toledo: Cop didn't take the time to assess whether his orders were obeyed, opened fire, and shot a 13-year-old who was unarmed and surrendering.

Last night, the 16-year-old whose name I can't spell: Cop had his gun drawn as he exited the car, passed up two opportunities for a simple restraint, and opened fire when there were two teenagers he could've hit.

Yes, there is an excessive force problem.
 
Juc
2021-04-21 12:27:30 PM  
Better late than never, even better to actually be on time though.
Sorta depressing good news eh
 
2021-04-21 12:27:58 PM  
Federal oversight is what we have been asking for and now that we get it subby wants to criticize. Get bent, subby.
 
2021-04-21 12:28:17 PM  

Magorn: RasIanI: You can thank Eric Holder's DOJ for this process. However late it is perceived to be -- can probably thank Bill Barr's DOJ for that -- it is still fundamental that it is completed and acted upon.

Attorney General Jefferson Davis Beauregard Sessions III not only gutted this part of the civil rights divisions' mission and told cops it was open season, he even tried to undo pending consent decrees with places like Baltimore that admitted they were badly in need of reform and monitoring.


That's right, he did -- I'd forgotten that it was an early item on their fascist To-Do List.

Thanks for the edit!
 
2021-04-21 12:30:23 PM  

Gubbo: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Everyone has the right to belong to a union. Once you start saying that police can't be members of a union, you lose me.

However, police unions are scum of the earth. So the simplest solution to make us both happy is to have a combined union for police, firefighters and EMTs.

I don't know if the police would come to dominate this structure, but it's all I've got.


When it comes to collective bargaining and unions, I think its safe to carve out an exemption that the armed agents of the State probably have direct and diametrically opposed incentives and goals to the rest of society, and their need for such collective bargaining is mitigated by the State's reliance on them and clear willingess to never hold them accountable.

Same reasons people in the military dont get to form unions.
 
2021-04-21 12:33:27 PM  

Gubbo: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Everyone has the right to belong to a union. Once you start saying that police can't be members of a union, you lose me.

However, police unions are scum of the earth. So the simplest solution to make us both happy is to have a combined union for police, firefighters and EMTs.

I don't know if the police would come to dominate this structure, but it's all I've got.


Have a civil service union for all civil workers, and put the police at the bottom of the totem pole.  They take out the trash.
 
2021-04-21 12:34:36 PM  
Most government pensions are guaranteed under state constitutions.

In other words, you're not touching them without a change to the state constitution. Good luck with that. You'll have all the municipal unions closing ranks behind the cops.

It's not a matter of excessive force as it is a matter of excessive law - and that's on the same legislatures and city councils who profess to be shocked and dismayed that law enforcement is enforcing laws.

Bottom line: if the law exists only to raise revenue or otherwise meet a politically-decreed arrest quota...ditch it.
 
2021-04-21 12:37:08 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Gubbo: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Everyone has the right to belong to a union. Once you start saying that police can't be members of a union, you lose me.

However, police unions are scum of the earth. So the simplest solution to make us both happy is to have a combined union for police, firefighters and EMTs.

I don't know if the police would come to dominate this structure, but it's all I've got.

Have a civil service union for all civil workers, and put the police at the bottom of the totem pole.  They take out the trash.


I think the people who work in parks and rec, and teachers, have different interests to emergency responders and to each other. Your idea is probably a lot better in practice though.
 
2021-04-21 12:38:06 PM  

zbtop: Gubbo: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Everyone has the right to belong to a union. Once you start saying that police can't be members of a union, you lose me.

However, police unions are scum of the earth. So the simplest solution to make us both happy is to have a combined union for police, firefighters and EMTs.

I don't know if the police would come to dominate this structure, but it's all I've got.

When it comes to collective bargaining and unions, I think its safe to carve out an exemption that the armed agents of the State probably have direct and diametrically opposed incentives and goals to the rest of society, and their need for such collective bargaining is mitigated by the State's reliance on them and clear willingess to never hold them accountable.

Same reasons people in the military dont get to form unions.


Soldiers and civilians are not the same thing. You can't compare them, especially when it comes to your basic rights.
 
2021-04-21 12:38:47 PM  

mehhhhhh: Carefully document their tattoos. Many get inked after their first kill on duty.


Many gangs have rituals to mark a members first kill, or as they call it, "making their bones".

And let's face it, the Boys in Blue are the toughest, most deadly gang in America.
 
2021-04-21 12:41:20 PM  

Begoggle: Hopefully they convict every single one of them.
Also, ban police unions.


Every job, no matter what it is, has the right to collective bargaining.

Public or private.
 
Bf+
2021-04-21 12:42:21 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
(clicky)

Oh, you don't farking say...

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-04-21 12:43:31 PM  

Gubbo: zbtop: Gubbo: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Everyone has the right to belong to a union. Once you start saying that police can't be members of a union, you lose me.

However, police unions are scum of the earth. So the simplest solution to make us both happy is to have a combined union for police, firefighters and EMTs.

I don't know if the police would come to dominate this structure, but it's all I've got.

When it comes to collective bargaining and unions, I think its safe to carve out an exemption that the armed agents of the State probably have direct and diametrically opposed incentives and goals to the rest of society, and their need for such collective bargaining is mitigated by the State's reliance on them and clear willingess to never hold them accountable.

Same reasons people in the military dont get to form unions.

Soldiers and civilians are not the same thing. You can't compare them, especially when it comes to your basic rights.


The principle is the same. Both are armed agents of the State, acting under its authority and with its backing, with motivations and incentives at odds with those of the rest of society. As such, a Union and Collective bargaining in either case is simply a reinforcement of State power and its ability to enact violence.

The State already has enough incentive to keep the Police well paid and happy, a Police Union protect abuses of power, nothing more.
 
2021-04-21 12:44:42 PM  

Magorn: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Don't even need to do that.   Give the unions control of the Police pension fund, BUT make all misconduct settlements something the pension fund picks up the tab for.   Or as someone suggested, set aside a pool of money every year that encompasses the amount of cops' routine raises and an bit more for bonuses/ awards etc.   Again pay all misconduct judgments out of that pool.  Anything left over goes to the officers.


How quickly would the blue wall crumble when cops realized that looking the other way when Officer Roid Rage or Sgt Drunky McDrunkerson broke the law would end up costing THEM personally


Yup, I've been saying exactly that for years. Just like with CEO pay, you need to realign pay with desired outcomes in order to change behavior.
 
2021-04-21 12:46:18 PM  

zbtop: Gubbo: zbtop: Gubbo: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Everyone has the right to belong to a union. Once you start saying that police can't be members of a union, you lose me.

However, police unions are scum of the earth. So the simplest solution to make us both happy is to have a combined union for police, firefighters and EMTs.

I don't know if the police would come to dominate this structure, but it's all I've got.

When it comes to collective bargaining and unions, I think its safe to carve out an exemption that the armed agents of the State probably have direct and diametrically opposed incentives and goals to the rest of society, and their need for such collective bargaining is mitigated by the State's reliance on them and clear willingess to never hold them accountable.

Same reasons people in the military dont get to form unions.

Soldiers and civilians are not the same thing. You can't compare them, especially when it comes to your basic rights.

The principle is the same. Both are armed agents of the State, acting under its authority and with its backing, with motivations and incentives at odds with those of the rest of society. As such, a Union and Collective bargaining in either case is simply a reinforcement of State power and its ability to enact violence.

The State already has enough incentive to keep the Police well paid and happy, a Police Union protect abuses of power, nothing more.


I disagree. Conflating the military and civilian police force is part of how this whole police abuse thing got started.

When you arm police to the teeth, when you give them tanks, give them badass looking riot gear, give them a mission that makes their fellow civilians the enemy, you get what America has.

Distancing the police as much as possible from that soldier mindset is important, your way would reinforce the message that they are just like soldiers and warriors of the state to be set loose on the civilian populations.
 
2021-04-21 12:48:28 PM  

Unobtanium: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Police unions are almost non-existent in the South. In general, Southern states don't have collective bargaining for government employees.
The whole "warrior" mindset needs to be worked out of the system. Also, the training seems to be designed to instill paranoia into how many ways they could die on a given shift.
Another thing that would really help is if we could figure out how to balance the privacy issues in automating traffic enforcement, and get the cops out of having a pretextual reason to stop a car and then go "by the way, do you mind if I search the car?"


Well said.
 
2021-04-21 12:52:03 PM  
Abolish all police!
 
2021-04-21 12:52:56 PM  

Bf+: [Link][Fark user image image 480x444] (clicky)

Oh, you don't farking say...

[Fark user image image 218x218]


Someone is a Packers fan.
 
2021-04-21 12:55:56 PM  

Gubbo: zbtop: Gubbo: zbtop: Gubbo: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Everyone has the right to belong to a union. Once you start saying that police can't be members of a union, you lose me.

However, police unions are scum of the earth. So the simplest solution to make us both happy is to have a combined union for police, firefighters and EMTs.

I don't know if the police would come to dominate this structure, but it's all I've got.

When it comes to collective bargaining and unions, I think its safe to carve out an exemption that the armed agents of the State probably have direct and diametrically opposed incentives and goals to the rest of society, and their need for such collective bargaining is mitigated by the State's reliance on them and clear willingess to never hold them accountable.

Same reasons people in the military dont get to form unions.

Soldiers and civilians are not the same thing. You can't compare them, especially when it comes to your basic rights.

The principle is the same. Both are armed agents of the State, acting under its authority and with its backing, with motivations and incentives at odds with those of the rest of society. As such, a Union and Collective bargaining in either case is simply a reinforcement of State power and its ability to enact violence.

The State already has enough incentive to keep the Police well paid and happy, a Police Union protect abuses of power, nothing more.

I disagree. Conflating the military and civilian police force is part of how this whole police abuse thing got started.

When you arm police to the teeth, when you give them tanks, give them badass looking riot gear, give them a mission that makes their fellow civilians the enemy, you get what America has.

Distancing the police as much as possible from that soldier mindset is important, your way would reinforce the message that they are just like soldiers and warriors of the state to be set loose on the civilian populations.


I don't disagree that the police and military need to be separated more and is a huge part of how we ended up here. Absolutely 100%.

The problem is however, ultimately they're still armed agents of the State, the State's own interest should be enough to see to their well being. Collective bargaining is just a reinforcement token of power and privilege in that case, making accountability nearly impossible even when the State finds problems with its agents, and reversing in many cases who holds the leash.

These aren't mutually exclusive. The police absolutely need to be demilitarized. There is however an inherent built in mechanism that 99.9% of the rest of us don't have the ensures there is more incentive to take care of Police, as workers by their employer, and that is the reliance of the State on them and their monopoly on the use of force.

Any government that cannot maintain its armed agents or forces in adequate condition without a union has larger competency issues, that a union isn't going to fix, and I can't think of a single city or police that experience better interactions or service as a result of the existence of a police union.
 
2021-04-21 12:57:52 PM  
Oh the beauty of states rights and keeping the FED at a distance
 
2021-04-21 12:58:16 PM  

BitwiseShift: Anyone who slow walks the real middle syllable of the state's name is not going to fully cooperate with this.



"Minnesota" has a middle syllable?
 
2021-04-21 12:59:03 PM  
Why didn't Minneapolis police eat tainted breakfast meat this morning?
Cause they put the rotten pig in jail.
 
2021-04-21 1:02:32 PM  

flynn80: Why didn't Minneapolis police eat tainted breakfast meat this morning?
Cause they put the rotten pig in jail.


Impressive. Not only not funny, but factually moronic to assume that there is only one bad cop on the force.

Especially when 3 (is it 4?) more of them are waiting to stand trial as part of this same murder.
 
2021-04-21 1:04:25 PM  

Gubbo: kling_klang_bed: Ban police unions and/or their funding, and you'll see a lot of this problem go away very farking quick.

Everyone has the right to belong to a union. Once you start saying that police can't be members of a union, you lose me.

However, police unions are scum of the earth. So the simplest solution to make us both happy is to have a combined union for police, firefighters and EMTs.

I don't know if the police would come to dominate this structure, but it's all I've got.


I like that idea. EMTs are out there saving lives every day, never the center of controversy, and make squat for it.

(Incidentally, I just saw it again in my local paper, most every arrest in my very white rural county outside routine traffic has the suspect fleeing and violently resisting arrest--most recently with the arrestee shooting at them. The cops never kill them.)
 
2021-04-21 1:17:17 PM  

zbtop: I can't think of a single city or police that experience better interactions or service as a result of the existence of a police union.


That's because that's not the purpose of a union.  A union isn't there to deliver a higher standard of service.  A union represents the workers.
 
2021-04-21 1:23:11 PM  

Jeebus Saves: zbtop: I can't think of a single city or police that experience better interactions or service as a result of the existence of a police union.

That's because that's not the purpose of a union.  A union isn't there to deliver a higher standard of service.  A union represents the workers.


I didn't attempt to note anything different, it was one part of a larger explanation.

My point was that in the case of Police, there is a unique incentive that exists almost nowhere else for the Employer to already do address Employee issues, and that such collective bargaining in that instance simply reinforces power structures and protects abuses of said power.

So ultimately, they have no need and serve no purpose other than to protect bad apples and incentivize abuse.
 
2021-04-21 1:28:15 PM  
This is great.  And it's a good start.  But this needs to be nationwide.

And we also need to start looking into the previous administration.  While completely unrelated to this topic, I feel it necessary to point out that, clearly the DOJ has got some time on its hands.  So, why don't they get moving on this other stuff that has been stinking up the country for a few years?
 
2021-04-21 1:37:53 PM  
They should go full-Seattle on Minne police. On-site DOJ overseers . It didn't do much to tame police, but at least ya don't get killed for whittling a stick on the side of road nowadays.
 
2021-04-21 1:46:13 PM  
Do you think AG Garland has Obama's time machine Subby?
 
2021-04-21 1:51:09 PM  

Gubbo: TheGreatGazoo: Apparently union workers with workplace protections and who make a living wage is bad now.

It would help if they didn't act like they were going on patrol in Afghanistan.

For instance, unless they are MPs, they are civilians.

You'll find that the rules of engagement for soldiers on patrol in Afghanistan are far stricter than for police in an American city.


In Baghdad we were under orders to put ourselves at risk long before we were ever allowed to use our weapons as a deterrent. When questioned, our battalion commander told us it's in the job description to be at risk, that's why it's a "service." I never understood that about cops. It's not like a firefighter can say, "I'm not gonna put myself at risk! I didn't sign up for this!" Yet every time a cop blows somebody away all he has to do is say he didn't feel safe.
 
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