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(The Drive)   Toyota joins the EV SUV parade with the thinly disguised bZ4X concept, basically a RAV4's electric cousin featuring an AWD system by Subaru   (thedrive.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Japan, Automotive industry, bZ4X concept, General Motors, only Toyota, Japan's biggest automaker, Lexus, Renault  
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588 clicks; posted to STEM » on 19 Apr 2021 at 4:05 AM (3 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



23 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-04-18 9:47:44 PM  
I guess it is good the designers of the Aztec got hired again. That is just an ugly car.
 
2021-04-18 10:52:39 PM  

eurotrader: I guess it is good the designers of the Aztec got hired again. That is just an ugly car.


I mean, I've seen better, but that ain't anywhere near the ugly of a 70s beater.  Those cars were designed by people spiteful to both aerodynamics and good taste.
 
2021-04-19 12:18:58 AM  

eurotrader: I guess it is good the designers of the Aztec got hired again. That is just an ugly car.


There have been far worse looking cars.
 
2021-04-19 4:28:25 AM  
Why is Toyota, leader in the hybrid game, looking to Subaru, whose best claim may be "well, we beat Mazda to market with one", for an electric drivetrain?

Yeah, BEV isn't quite the same, but still, whole lotta crossover.
 
2021-04-19 5:16:27 AM  
Woah! Crazy none of the electric car manufacturers thought of it before, BUTTONS. And KNOBS. And a SWITCH for the indicators.

They're really pushing forward innovation in electric vehicles design.
 
2021-04-19 5:27:15 AM  

spiralscratch: Why is Toyota, leader in the hybrid game, looking to Subaru, whose best claim may be "well, we beat Mazda to market with one", for an electric drivetrain?

Yeah, BEV isn't quite the same, but still, whole lotta crossover.


Subaru make good AWD systems. They also make AWD systems that use all four wheels as drive wheels, which, if Toyota wants it, probably means they have dual motors (front and back) and the Subaru system will just drop in without any R&D on how the second motor and AWD will react to each other engaging and disengaging independently as the AWD just stays on all the time.

Toyota can then just shove motors wherever and the AWD system just sees extra power available rather than, "Hey, the rear motor wants to drive but the rear wheels don't, let me run through the checklist to see which one wins"
 
2021-04-19 6:27:22 AM  
Let's gooooo. I've been waiting for those Toyota farks to come around. bZ5. Now. Plez?
 
2021-04-19 6:50:26 AM  
I can't seem to find any info on the AWD system. I don't see why it needs to be "designed by Subaru." With an EV you just slap on an extra motor to avoid mechanical loss. Unless they're doing clever things with the reduction gear or torque vectoring. Any ideas?
 
2021-04-19 7:06:19 AM  
I must have missed the day when a car full of angles and scoops can be considered 'sleek'. And that dashboard? That U for the speedometer looks designed to gather sunlight and shine it right on the display.
 
2021-04-19 7:14:34 AM  

dyhchong: spiralscratch: Why is Toyota, leader in the hybrid game, looking to Subaru, whose best claim may be "well, we beat Mazda to market with one", for an electric drivetrain?

Yeah, BEV isn't quite the same, but still, whole lotta crossover.

Subaru make good AWD systems. They also make AWD systems that use all four wheels as drive wheels, which, if Toyota wants it, probably means they have dual motors (front and back) and the Subaru system will just drop in without any R&D on how the second motor and AWD will react to each other engaging and disengaging independently as the AWD just stays on all the time.

Toyota can then just shove motors wherever and the AWD system just sees extra power available rather than, "Hey, the rear motor wants to drive but the rear wheels don't, let me run through the checklist to see which one wins"


Yeah, "Subaru, but not the motor" sounds like a winner to me.

I don't even think it's ugly, but I'd have actually bought a new RAV4 hybrid when I was looking for a car last year if I could have afforded one.
 
2021-04-19 7:15:47 AM  
Is anyone going to tell them they made a Mazda MX-5?
 
2021-04-19 7:22:21 AM  

dyhchong: spiralscratch: Why is Toyota, leader in the hybrid game, looking to Subaru, whose best claim may be "well, we beat Mazda to market with one", for an electric drivetrain?

Yeah, BEV isn't quite the same, but still, whole lotta crossover.

Subaru make good AWD systems. They also make AWD systems that use all four wheels as drive wheels, which, if Toyota wants it, probably means they have dual motors (front and back) and the Subaru system will just drop in without any R&D on how the second motor and AWD will react to each other engaging and disengaging independently as the AWD just stays on all the time.

Toyota can then just shove motors wherever and the AWD system just sees extra power available rather than, "Hey, the rear motor wants to drive but the rear wheels don't, let me run through the checklist to see which one wins"


Nothing wrong with Subaru's AWD systems, but they're designed for distributing power from a single source to the wheels.  Once you get into multiple motors, Toyota already has systems with an electrically-powered rear (e.g., the hybrid Highlander and RAV4 and the AWD Prius), which have the advantage of skipping any rear driveshafts or center differentials.

Maybe Subaru has something more advanced in development, or maybe this is a single-motor AWD vehicle, but from what we've seen on the road so far I just don't get "AWD by Subaru" being anything more than a marketing gimmick for an electric vehicle.
 
2021-04-19 8:22:29 AM  
Neato.

Looks like a normal car (over-designed garbage) but I've learned to live with that. Give it a couple years and people will think this is an old and tired design like the model 3.
 
2021-04-19 9:21:04 AM  
They should have used Mazda's AWD. It's better
 
2021-04-19 9:24:52 AM  

eKonk: dyhchong: spiralscratch: Why is Toyota, leader in the hybrid game, looking to Subaru, whose best claim may be "well, we beat Mazda to market with one", for an electric drivetrain?

Yeah, BEV isn't quite the same, but still, whole lotta crossover.

Subaru make good AWD systems. They also make AWD systems that use all four wheels as drive wheels, which, if Toyota wants it, probably means they have dual motors (front and back) and the Subaru system will just drop in without any R&D on how the second motor and AWD will react to each other engaging and disengaging independently as the AWD just stays on all the time.

Toyota can then just shove motors wherever and the AWD system just sees extra power available rather than, "Hey, the rear motor wants to drive but the rear wheels don't, let me run through the checklist to see which one wins"

Nothing wrong with Subaru's AWD systems, but they're designed for distributing power from a single source to the wheels.  Once you get into multiple motors, Toyota already has systems with an electrically-powered rear (e.g., the hybrid Highlander and RAV4 and the AWD Prius), which have the advantage of skipping any rear driveshafts or center differentials.

Maybe Subaru has something more advanced in development, or maybe this is a single-motor AWD vehicle, but from what we've seen on the road so far I just don't get "AWD by Subaru" being anything more than a marketing gimmick for an electric vehicle.


Subaru is known for symmetrical AWD (most others are asymmetrical). Not sure if that's the case here though.
 
2021-04-19 9:49:13 AM  

petec: eKonk: dyhchong: spiralscratch: Why is Toyota, leader in the hybrid game, looking to Subaru, whose best claim may be "well, we beat Mazda to market with one", for an electric drivetrain?

Yeah, BEV isn't quite the same, but still, whole lotta crossover.

Subaru make good AWD systems. They also make AWD systems that use all four wheels as drive wheels, which, if Toyota wants it, probably means they have dual motors (front and back) and the Subaru system will just drop in without any R&D on how the second motor and AWD will react to each other engaging and disengaging independently as the AWD just stays on all the time.

Toyota can then just shove motors wherever and the AWD system just sees extra power available rather than, "Hey, the rear motor wants to drive but the rear wheels don't, let me run through the checklist to see which one wins"

Nothing wrong with Subaru's AWD systems, but they're designed for distributing power from a single source to the wheels.  Once you get into multiple motors, Toyota already has systems with an electrically-powered rear (e.g., the hybrid Highlander and RAV4 and the AWD Prius), which have the advantage of skipping any rear driveshafts or center differentials.

Maybe Subaru has something more advanced in development, or maybe this is a single-motor AWD vehicle, but from what we've seen on the road so far I just don't get "AWD by Subaru" being anything more than a marketing gimmick for an electric vehicle.

Subaru is known for symmetrical AWD (most others are asymmetrical). Not sure if that's the case here though.


Right, that's what I'm wondering about - once you go to a set up with dual motors (e.g., one for the front wheels, one for the back), I don't see the advantage to a symmetrical torque distribution system. Once you have the capability of adjusting torque output to each axle (or individual wheels, for the 3-4 motor arrangements), it becomes more of a software-managed system to judge power distribution based on wheel speed sensors, etc.

It's certainly possible that Subaru would be developing such a system, but since Toyota already has this sort of thing on the road I am having trouble understanding why they would go with Subaru's (of course, Toyota does own a large stake in Subaru, so maybe I'm just overthinking this).
 
2021-04-19 10:03:29 AM  

Tr0mBoNe: Neato.

Looks like a normal car (over-designed garbage) but I've learned to live with that. Give it a couple years and people will think this is an old and tired design like the model 3.


Heaven forbid. The Model 3s dashboard (or lack of one) is a nightmare.
It's amazing that a guy as smart as Musk (bat shiat crazy, but smart) forgets one important rule about car UI: YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO USE CONTROLS WITHOUT LOOKING AT THEM!

Replacing the entire dashboard with an iPad-like-single-point-of-failure is terrible engineering.
I'm surprised he didn't just replace the steering wheel with Left and Right arrows on the iPad.
 
2021-04-19 11:14:41 AM  

SpocksEars: Tr0mBoNe: Neato.

Looks like a normal car (over-designed garbage) but I've learned to live with that. Give it a couple years and people will think this is an old and tired design like the model 3.

Heaven forbid. The Model 3s dashboard (or lack of one) is a nightmare.
It's amazing that a guy as smart as Musk (bat shiat crazy, but smart) forgets one important rule about car UI: YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO USE CONTROLS WITHOUT LOOKING AT THEM!

Replacing the entire dashboard with an iPad-like-single-point-of-failure is terrible engineering.
I'm surprised he didn't just replace the steering wheel with Left and Right arrows on the iPad.


Their counter is that voice controls and wheel-mounted controls negate the need to fuss with the center instrument controls.  And some people appear to be happy setting their HVAC controls to auto and just leaving them be.

I find that those systems reduce the need to fiddle with the radio and climate settings, but they don't eliminate.  So I am with you.  Keep the tactile buttons.  I don't want to go digging through menus in order to change something.
 
2021-04-19 11:56:23 AM  

eKonk: Subaru is known for symmetrical AWD (most others are asymmetrical). Not sure if that's the case here though.


Right, that's what I'm wondering about - once you go to a set up with dual motors (e.g., one for the front wheels, one for the back), I don't see the advantage to a symmetrical torque distribution system. Once you have the capability of adjusting torque output to each axle (or individual wheels, for the 3-4 motor arrangements), it becomes more of a software-managed system to judge power distribution based on wheel speed sensors, etc.

It's certainly possible that Subaru would be developing such a system, but since Toyota already has this sort of thing on the road I am having trouble understanding why they would go with Subaru's (of course, Toyota does own a large stake in Subaru, so maybe I'm just overthinking this).



you can't adjust the lengths of the half shafts, if they're equal length, it eliminates torque steer and provides equal torque to both (or all 4) wheels

it's easy and typical on RWD (the differential is centered between the wheels), but on FWD and AWD the half shafts are different lengths on most non subarus
 
2021-04-19 1:12:26 PM  

Dinjiin: SpocksEars: Tr0mBoNe: Neato.

Looks like a normal car (over-designed garbage) but I've learned to live with that. Give it a couple years and people will think this is an old and tired design like the model 3.

Heaven forbid. The Model 3s dashboard (or lack of one) is a nightmare.
It's amazing that a guy as smart as Musk (bat shiat crazy, but smart) forgets one important rule about car UI: YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO USE CONTROLS WITHOUT LOOKING AT THEM!

Replacing the entire dashboard with an iPad-like-single-point-of-failure is terrible engineering.
I'm surprised he didn't just replace the steering wheel with Left and Right arrows on the iPad.

Their counter is that voice controls and wheel-mounted controls negate the need to fuss with the center instrument controls.  And some people appear to be happy setting their HVAC controls to auto and just leaving them be.

I find that those systems reduce the need to fiddle with the radio and climate settings, but they don't eliminate.  So I am with you.  Keep the tactile buttons.  I don't want to go digging through menus in order to change something.


Voice Control? Automatic HVAC? What is this sorcery you speak of?
* drives away my 20 year old Honda Accord that just won't die already, so I can replace it *
 
2021-04-19 1:25:28 PM  

petec: eKonk: Subaru is known for symmetrical AWD (most others are asymmetrical). Not sure if that's the case here though.


Right, that's what I'm wondering about - once you go to a set up with dual motors (e.g., one for the front wheels, one for the back), I don't see the advantage to a symmetrical torque distribution system. Once you have the capability of adjusting torque output to each axle (or individual wheels, for the 3-4 motor arrangements), it becomes more of a software-managed system to judge power distribution based on wheel speed sensors, etc.

It's certainly possible that Subaru would be developing such a system, but since Toyota already has this sort of thing on the road I am having trouble understanding why they would go with Subaru's (of course, Toyota does own a large stake in Subaru, so maybe I'm just overthinking this).


you can't adjust the lengths of the half shafts, if they're equal length, it eliminates torque steer and provides equal torque to both (or all 4) wheels

it's easy and typical on RWD (the differential is centered between the wheels), but on FWD and AWD the half shafts are different lengths on most non subarus


Right, but that issue goes away with a typical electric motor set up - you can mount the motor wherever is convenient and your transmission is essentially just a fixed reduction gear/differential, so putting it dead-center is no problem when compared to, say, a transversely-mounted I4 with transaxle that makes unequal length half shafts a good option so everything fits easily.

And if I'm doing AWD on an electric vehicle, it's going to work in my favor to install a second motor in the back to drive the rear wheels, rather than run a mechanical link (driveshaft) back there.

I guess if this concept car uses a single electric motor for AWD, I can see making use of a Subaru-derived drivetrain, but that doesn't seem like the best approach.  And again, maybe this is a brand new electric AWD system that Subaru developed that I'm just not familiar with.  If it's not one of those two situations, I guess I still just can't see what advantage a Subaru AWD system would offer here.
 
2021-04-19 1:29:26 PM  
Man, Toyota is NEVER going to give up on their giant moustache grilles, are they?
 
2021-04-19 4:46:29 PM  

I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: Man, Toyota is NEVER going to give up on their giant moustache grilles, are they?


The BMW pig-snout is worse.
 
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