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(Eurogamer)   Video game director whose latest offering was plagued by problems at launch is angry at gamers who refuse to buy at launch   (eurogamer.net) divider line
    More: Obvious, Sony Computer Entertainment, Sony's PlayStation Plus subscription service, creative director of Days, John Garvin, Last week, Environmental details, David Jaffe's YouTube channel, game's debut  
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2101 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 18 Apr 2021 at 3:43 PM (3 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-04-18 1:06:53 PM  
Never buy at launch. Wait a year minimum.
 
2021-04-18 1:17:04 PM  
I bought Days Gone for like $15 on a lark, put a few hours into it, then got bored and quit.  So, I'm getting a kick....
 
2021-04-18 1:20:25 PM  
Ok, he's got a point about how not paying full price hurts a developer's ability to continue making games, but I didn't see anything in there about his plans to make it worth paying full price for a game.
 
2021-04-18 1:23:38 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: Ok, he's got a point about how not paying full price hurts a developer's ability to continue making games, but I didn't see anything in there about his plans to make it worth paying full price for a game.


I also like how he assumes people downloading the game illegally would be paying customers otherwise.
 
2021-04-18 1:24:01 PM  
I pirate everything.  It's more fun that way, and in keeping with the spirit of gaming.
 
2021-04-18 1:30:15 PM  

HawgWild: I also like how he assumes people downloading the game illegally would be paying customers otherwise.


I'm positive that some would, but it can't be a significant number. There's no friggin' way that eliminating* piracy brings in a fraction of the money as convincing people to not buy at a discount.

*I know it's not actually possible, just assuming for the sake of the argument.
 
2021-04-18 2:07:12 PM  
Have you tried to make a good game, then test the shiat out of it and then updating it regularly when you do finally start selling it?
 
2021-04-18 2:09:51 PM  

cretinbob: Never buy at launch. Wait a year minimum.


Unless it's first party Nintendo.  But then, it takes Nintendo twice as long to make a game so it's kind of a wash.
 
2021-04-18 2:18:58 PM  
Maybe don't sell it at a discount then? Why is the customer being blamed here?

If this guy's excuse is "I don't have control over the pricing" then how about take your beef there because neither do the customers.
 
2021-04-18 2:21:36 PM  
"And we would show them torrents, a torrent site had 200,000 copies of Dark Mirror being downloaded. If I remember it right - the numbers could be wrong - but regardless, I was pissed about it then, I was like, 'this is money out of my pocket'.

Or if you priced it right that would be 200,000 more customers.
 
2021-04-18 2:33:12 PM  
A game that had mixed reviews out of the gate, land-locked into the playstation ecosystem and looks like yet another 3rd person shooter/zombie survival game with a so-so story?  From a studio with very little to show for the last 7 years, and the game itself isn't an established franchise.  Oh and now you're trying to get people to pay full price again two years later by putting it on Steam?

Meh.

If you're trying to break into that genre you should be releasing $20 episodes or something, let people play the first act for $20 and if your game is good enough they'll pay for the next installments.  But no, you basically unknown studio, you don't get to come out of nowhere asking full price for a game that's in a very cluttered landscape and basically a knock-off of so many other titles.
 
2021-04-18 2:38:15 PM  
I'm more of the "play early access games and enjoy the game get made" type. Pushy publishers are often the cause of most half baked games. At least Early Access/Steam Greenlight at least could provide a somewhat steady stream of income to the dev as they build the game and more folks hear about it and buy in.


Now Steam screwing over how much of the money goes to the devs is an entirely different problem, altogether
 
2021-04-18 3:16:16 PM  
Not a single thing about that game looks new or interesting.
 
2021-04-18 4:05:16 PM  

HawgWild: Noticeably F.A.T.: Ok, he's got a point about how not paying full price hurts a developer's ability to continue making games, but I didn't see anything in there about his plans to make it worth paying full price for a game.

I also like how he assumes people downloading the game illegally would be paying customers otherwise.


It's a common problem of these guys who are in it for the money, not for the love of creation and sharing their story.

In reality, I'm sure less than 1% of pirates would ever pay, and his download numbers seem sketchy. He's also assuming no one has ever bought media and pirated for later keeping, playing on another platform, etc.

These same jagoffs are the ones trying to charge $70+ for base game, selling digital special edition for another $10 or $20 and often some kind of collectors edition for $100. As mentioned above, this game is unknown, the developer is unknown, it's not a franchise, it's in a saturated market space, and they are doing nothing to distinguish themselves, raise it redefine the genre. Why would a zombie hack/slash clone be worth $60 let alone $100 at launch... Especially with a screwed up launch.

There's a huge disconnect from reality with this guy. He didn't seem to understand gamers, the market, the platform, his role in the above... And mostly he comes off as an entitled prick who assumes his shiat don't stink.

Did he apprentice under Bobby Kotick?
 
2021-04-18 4:05:20 PM  
I worked in software for 20 years, a fair amount of it running QA departments.  I'm not going to pay full price to be a beta tester, and most big games are released in a beta state.  You want me to pay full price for your game, start fully testing it before releasing it.
 
2021-04-18 4:08:16 PM  
media.giphy.comView Full Size
 
2021-04-18 4:08:40 PM  
He's the guy who gets a lot of credit for God of War.  I'm sure he can cry all the way to the bank.
 
2021-04-18 4:12:03 PM  

tymothil: I worked in software for 20 years, a fair amount of it running QA departments.  I'm not going to pay full price to be a beta tester, and most big games are released in a beta state.  You want me to pay full price for your game, start fully testing it before releasing it.


You forgot that they need to release it feature complete.

As well as not charge for originally planned features or content (like DLC that clearly is part of the story). They also need to not try to monetize the hell out of it with loot boxes, keys, skins, etc. If you treat the game as a vehicle for profit, you're the one who started the min/max war... The response of consumers trying to protect their pocketbook by waiting for sales... Let alone waiting for an inevitable Gold or Complete or Ultimate version is not hard to understand.
 
2021-04-18 4:23:32 PM  
Full me once, Resident Evil 6, shame on you...

/going for a resident evil six trifecta here, with the thread beneath this one
 
2021-04-18 4:50:48 PM  
I don't mind paying full price as long as it's a good game. I also don't have as much time as I used to, so I'm going to read reviews before a purchase in most cases (there's a few franchises I trust or love enough not to care), and if your Metacritic score points to "Mediocre", I'm not going to drop $70 on it. There too much good content out there for me to not prioritize. Yes, that might hurt small game studios, but only if they're trying to develop a triple A game straight out of the gate. Go develop some smaller games, charge less than the latest Madden or CoD, get a reputation for creativity and excellence, and then program your blockbuster, and I'll pay full price for it.
 
2021-04-18 4:53:49 PM  
Is there a far cry like game that doesn't have the stupid story shiat that interrupts gameplay? I would play the hell out of that.

/in far cry 3 it was the stupid ambush from nowhere after you killed every last person and animal in a three clock radius
//in far cry 5 it was unstoppable ambush even if you were cruising a couple hundred feet up on one of those wing suits
///the gun play was fun
 
2021-04-18 4:54:19 PM  
He has a point, but so do the people waiting a year or more before buying a game. Bugs have always been in games and it makes sense that as they get more complicated and detailed, the chances for bugs would increase. Plus, throw in added costs like Hollywood actors and other expenses to get a AAA game and I'm honestly surprised they're still releasing at $60 (and understand why certain games may depend on DLC to be profitable).

Maybe pump the brakes on being on the technological edge for a good long while until it becomes easier to produce a bug-free product.
 
2021-04-18 5:00:05 PM  

palelizard: I don't mind paying full price as long as it's a good game.


Long ago I got tired of the advertising folks convincing me a game would be good only to find out afterwards it's complete shiat.  These days, if there's no free demo they're lucky if I even bother to pirate.
 
2021-04-18 5:00:57 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: HawgWild: I also like how he assumes people downloading the game illegally would be paying customers otherwise.

I'm positive that some would, but it can't be a significant number. There's no friggin' way that eliminating* piracy brings in a fraction of the money as convincing people to not buy at a discount.

*I know it's not actually possible, just assuming for the sake of the argument.


This. I mean I pirated some games when I was younger just to get out of paying for them.  If payment was the only option, I would have.
 
2021-04-18 5:01:11 PM  
I never buy games at full price, and I never buy games anywhere near their release window. fark that. It'll be better six months or a year after release. Plus there'll be a better set of walkthroughs, mods, and just general community shiat. Plus, there'll likely be a compendium edition which includes all the DLC you milked in the initial release.

Why should I pay more just for the privilege of having a worse experience but a little bit sooner?
 
2021-04-18 5:05:51 PM  
And ya know what? I DO pay full price for games to support developers that I think deserve it. I paid full price for Foxhole, for Starsector, for Stardew Valley, because they were doing fun things with great games and obviously put effort into them and into interacting with their customers. I'll pay full price for Dwarf Fortress when it comes out on Steam too even though I can currently play it for free.

I ALSO bought Cyberpunk 2077 on release. Guess who's the one that got screwed on THAT particular deal? There are plenty of games that have been an absolute garbage fire on release, or turn out not to be what the devs promised, or were hidden behind review embargoes.

Should customers support developers? Sure. But the developers have to earn that support. If you put out a mediocre product or expect customers to be beta testers then don't be surprised when people wait a couple years for it to go on sale for 80% off.
 
2021-04-18 5:07:23 PM  

Wobambo: I'm honestly surprised they're still releasing at $60


I think that's as much as the market will bear. 8-bit Nintendo cartridges were $50, but that was some time ago. I'm sure if they could get the same sales at $100, they'd sell it for $100, and I say that without criticism, they're allowed to make money.
 
2021-04-18 5:17:09 PM  
The last time I considered buying a game at launch was Borderlands 3.

I had been a big fan of the first two, so I was interested in the third, but then it turned out that the actual cost of the entire game and first round of additional content was $120, and that's a hefty investment.

The other thing is I'd played the first two on my xbox 360, but by the time 3 was rolling around I had largely transitioned to PC gaming, and I'm pretty sure the game wasn't being released for my old console anyhoo.

But playing on PC meant buying two copies if me and my then-partner were going to be able to play together, as we'd played through the first two together on the console, so that doubled the price and meant I'd be shelling out $240 for the game and there's just no way I could spend that much.

And then we get to the other problem with buying games at launch: We don't know what they are until actual people get to start playing them.  The people who do bite the bullet and buy these games at launch, who get to experience the actual game, and not the carefully curated experience shown in promotional materials or marketed to reviewers.  Is the gameplay fun? Is the story good?  Is the humor funny?

Not to mention, Does the game, functionally, work?

So I wait.  And since I'm in no rush, I tend to get games in the pattern of, "Hey, that's a pretty big discount in this sale.  Oh, I heard some really good things about this, I think I'll pick it up"
 
2021-04-18 5:32:29 PM  
the only time i ever bought new video games was when i had excess money and absolutely nothing going on in my life
 
2021-04-18 5:58:54 PM  

moothemagiccow: the only time i ever bought new video games was when i had excess money and absolutely nothing going on in my life


You could just simplify that by saying "when I had excess money". The other clause clearly doesn't ever apply. You're on Fark, after all.
 
2021-04-18 6:36:14 PM  
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2021-04-18 6:46:21 PM  
I bought both Cyberpunk 2077 and Borderlands 3 at launch and do not regret it. On the other hand, I bought The Outer Worlds and Deus Ex: Human Revolution at launch and wish I hadn't. Why? I can deal with bugs. Hell, every AAA game I've bought in two console generations has had serious bugs at launch (or, in the case of many of them, even in their GotY editions, BETHESDA), most of them worse than 2077's. What I can't deal with is a story that gets halfway through and then just stops for no reason. as far as I can tell, I have to buy DLC (that is never coming out, btw) to get the full game, and that isn't acceptable. Finish the damn narrative before you hit beta, dammit.

/Deus Ex's was intentional. The Outer Worlds didn't know they weren't done. I don't know which was worse.
//The fact that the end of Outer Worlds is on a Far Cry-style railroad for the last half hour doesn't help its case.
 
2021-04-18 6:55:29 PM  
No, I will NOT accept all cookies just to read a halfassed article!
 
2021-04-18 6:59:01 PM  
i.redd.itView Full Size
 
2021-04-18 7:09:30 PM  

luidprand: I bought both Cyberpunk 2077 and Borderlands 3 at launch and do not regret it. On the other hand, I bought The Outer Worlds and Deus Ex: Human Revolution at launch and wish I hadn't. Why? I can deal with bugs. Hell, every AAA game I've bought in two console generations has had serious bugs at launch (or, in the case of many of them, even in their GotY editions, BETHESDA), most of them worse than 2077's. What I can't deal with is a story that gets halfway through and then just stops for no reason. as far as I can tell, I have to buy DLC (that is never coming out, btw) to get the full game, and that isn't acceptable. Finish the damn narrative before you hit beta, dammit.

/Deus Ex's was intentional. The Outer Worlds didn't know they weren't done. I don't know which was worse.
//The fact that the end of Outer Worlds is on a Far Cry-style railroad for the last half hour doesn't help its case.


Outer Worlds was one of the most polished PC releases I've seen in years. It may have not had all the content you wanted but it was definitely a game that went through QA and code review
 
2021-04-18 7:17:25 PM  
Surprised no-one has mentioned Mass Effect: Andromeda yet. I bought it full price first day and had no problems with it. But the way Bioware dropped it and the franchise really pissed me off. And that they're using this Remastered Trilogy to test the waters for continuing the series pisses me off all over again. I already bought each of those games when they came out, DLC, lost/broke/sold the games, bought them again, and even bought a few copies as gifts. I loved the series and I'm not throwing down another $60 just cause they prettied it up.
 
2021-04-18 7:19:40 PM  

TheReject: luidprand: I bought both Cyberpunk 2077 and Borderlands 3 at launch and do not regret it. On the other hand, I bought The Outer Worlds and Deus Ex: Human Revolution at launch and wish I hadn't. Why? I can deal with bugs. Hell, every AAA game I've bought in two console generations has had serious bugs at launch (or, in the case of many of them, even in their GotY editions, BETHESDA), most of them worse than 2077's. What I can't deal with is a story that gets halfway through and then just stops for no reason. as far as I can tell, I have to buy DLC (that is never coming out, btw) to get the full game, and that isn't acceptable. Finish the damn narrative before you hit beta, dammit.

/Deus Ex's was intentional. The Outer Worlds didn't know they weren't done. I don't know which was worse.
//The fact that the end of Outer Worlds is on a Far Cry-style railroad for the last half hour doesn't help its case.

Outer Worlds was one of the most polished PC releases I've seen in years. It may have not had all the content you wanted but it was definitely a game that went through QA and code review


I bought it at launch and only annoyed by how short it was. Due for another playthrough now that all DLC is out though.
 
2021-04-18 7:22:12 PM  

Wobambo: Surprised no-one has mentioned Mass Effect: Andromeda yet. I bought it full price first day and had no problems with it. But the way Bioware dropped it and the franchise really pissed me off. And that they're using this Remastered Trilogy to test the waters for continuing the series pisses me off all over again. I already bought each of those games when they came out, DLC, lost/broke/sold the games, bought them again, and even bought a few copies as gifts. I loved the series and I'm not throwing down another $60 just cause they prettied it up.


Do you not want to support the last Prothian in his great battle against the Vorcha councellor after he had been defrosted? Do you not want to call up the most powerful politicians in the galaxy only to hang up on them? You make me ashamed, and as a biotic God you will rue this day.
 
2021-04-18 7:28:54 PM  

TheReject: luidprand: I bought both Cyberpunk 2077 and Borderlands 3 at launch and do not regret it. On the other hand, I bought The Outer Worlds and Deus Ex: Human Revolution at launch and wish I hadn't. Why? I can deal with bugs. Hell, every AAA game I've bought in two console generations has had serious bugs at launch (or, in the case of many of them, even in their GotY editions, BETHESDA), most of them worse than 2077's. What I can't deal with is a story that gets halfway through and then just stops for no reason. as far as I can tell, I have to buy DLC (that is never coming out, btw) to get the full game, and that isn't acceptable. Finish the damn narrative before you hit beta, dammit.

/Deus Ex's was intentional. The Outer Worlds didn't know they weren't done. I don't know which was worse.
//The fact that the end of Outer Worlds is on a Far Cry-style railroad for the last half hour doesn't help its case.

Outer Worlds was one of the most polished PC releases I've seen in years. It may have not had all the content you wanted but it was definitely a game that went through QA and code review


That's kind of my point. I didn't have a technical problem with either of the two games I cited, but the fact that they weren't finished products was worse than having to deal with bugs.
 
2021-04-18 7:35:08 PM  

Wobambo: TheReject: luidprand: I bought both Cyberpunk 2077 and Borderlands 3 at launch and do not regret it. On the other hand, I bought The Outer Worlds and Deus Ex: Human Revolution at launch and wish I hadn't. Why? I can deal with bugs. Hell, every AAA game I've bought in two console generations has had serious bugs at launch (or, in the case of many of them, even in their GotY editions, BETHESDA), most of them worse than 2077's. What I can't deal with is a story that gets halfway through and then just stops for no reason. as far as I can tell, I have to buy DLC (that is never coming out, btw) to get the full game, and that isn't acceptable. Finish the damn narrative before you hit beta, dammit.

/Deus Ex's was intentional. The Outer Worlds didn't know they weren't done. I don't know which was worse.
//The fact that the end of Outer Worlds is on a Far Cry-style railroad for the last half hour doesn't help its case.

Outer Worlds was one of the most polished PC releases I've seen in years. It may have not had all the content you wanted but it was definitely a game that went through QA and code review

I bought it at launch and only annoyed by how short it was. Due for another playthrough now that all DLC is out though.


The outer worlds may have had few bugs but it also didn't have any significant content. It wasn't open world as advertised, the dialog choice system was hollow, there were four enemy types total, the weapon and armor choice limited, the crafting minimal, the base building even less than minimal. The only good thing compared to similar games was the companion leveling and range control. Can't have many bugs if there were nothing to get buggy.
 
2021-04-18 7:38:59 PM  
I paid full price for Jet Set Willy on release day for the ZX Spectrum.

I have never bought a game on launch day since. Fark him and his wittering.
 
2021-04-18 7:55:31 PM  
I don't even know what this game is, but I showed the article to some friends and they were like, "oh ho ho, the BALLS on this guy".

I take it that it wasn't so good.
 
2021-04-18 7:59:15 PM  

luidprand: I bought both Cyberpunk 2077 and Borderlands 3 at launch and do not regret it. On the other hand, I bought The Outer Worlds and Deus Ex: Human Revolution at launch and wish I hadn't. Why? I can deal with bugs. Hell, every AAA game I've bought in two console generations has had serious bugs at launch (or, in the case of many of them, even in their GotY editions, BETHESDA), most of them worse than 2077's. What I can't deal with is a story that gets halfway through and then just stops for no reason. as far as I can tell, I have to buy DLC (that is never coming out, btw) to get the full game, and that isn't acceptable. Finish the damn narrative before you hit beta, dammit.

/Deus Ex's was intentional. The Outer Worlds didn't know they weren't done. I don't know which was worse.
//The fact that the end of Outer Worlds is on a Far Cry-style railroad for the last half hour doesn't help its case.



Deus Ex: Mankind Divided cut out the last third of the game so Square Enix could get their microtransaction game mode, Breach. Which they later released as a standalone F2P.

It arguably killed the Deus Ex franchise. We were supposed to get another game, and now we aren't, partly due to bad press about the microtransactions in Mankind Divided.
 
2021-04-18 8:01:12 PM  

luidprand: I bought both Cyberpunk 2077 and Borderlands 3 at launch and do not regret it. On the other hand, I bought The Outer Worlds and Deus Ex: Human Revolution at launch and wish I hadn't. Why? I can deal with bugs. Hell, every AAA game I've bought in two console generations has had serious bugs at launch (or, in the case of many of them, even in their GotY editions, BETHESDA), most of them worse than 2077's. What I can't deal with is a story that gets halfway through and then just stops for no reason. as far as I can tell, I have to buy DLC (that is never coming out, btw) to get the full game, and that isn't acceptable. Finish the damn narrative before you hit beta, dammit.

/Deus Ex's was intentional. The Outer Worlds didn't know they weren't done. I don't know which was worse.
//The fact that the end of Outer Worlds is on a Far Cry-style railroad for the last half hour doesn't help its case.


Serious question: What is the difference between "setting up the sequel" and "not finished"?  I played both those games, and thought the endings had a set up for a sequel.  Is it just length?
 
2021-04-18 8:01:15 PM  

TheReject: Wobambo: Surprised no-one has mentioned Mass Effect: Andromeda yet. I bought it full price first day and had no problems with it. But the way Bioware dropped it and the franchise really pissed me off. And that they're using this Remastered Trilogy to test the waters for continuing the series pisses me off all over again. I already bought each of those games when they came out, DLC, lost/broke/sold the games, bought them again, and even bought a few copies as gifts. I loved the series and I'm not throwing down another $60 just cause they prettied it up.

Do you not want to support the last Prothian in his great battle against the Vorcha councellor after he had been defrosted? Do you not want to call up the most powerful politicians in the galaxy only to hang up on them? You make me ashamed, and as a biotic God you will rue this day.


Heheh - I'll probably still catch it when it's down to $30, which likely won't be too long after it's released, because I'm that much of a fan (heavily mod my XCOM 2 and Stellaris games for Mass Effect). If they had included the ME3 multiplayer or new content that improves on the connection and choices between games, they would have had me for day one.
 
2021-04-18 8:14:47 PM  
somedude210:Now Steam screwing over how much of the money goes to the devs is an entirely different problem, altogether

Fark user imageView Full Size

Now Steam screwing over how much of the money goes to the devs is an entirely different problem,
 
2021-04-18 8:17:55 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: Ok, he's got a point about how not paying full price hurts a developer's ability to continue making games, but I didn't see anything in there about his plans to make it worth paying full price for a game.


He didn't. His point was that he is entitled to people paying full price for his games at launch time, and those who buy it at a discount are stealing what is rightfully his profit.
 
2021-04-18 8:28:25 PM  
"Days Gone writer says if you love a game, you should buy at full price"


I do, assuming what i can discover about it first suggests it is worth it. Otherwise i wait to buy whatever at what seems to be a reasonable price for what i can discern it to be worth.
 
2021-04-18 8:28:32 PM  

palelizard: Wobambo: I'm honestly surprised they're still releasing at $60

I think that's as much as the market will bear. 8-bit Nintendo cartridges were $50, but that was some time ago. I'm sure if they could get the same sales at $100, they'd sell it for $100, and I say that without criticism, they're allowed to make money.


Adjusted for inflation, Final Fantasy III for the SNES cost $140. So current game prices aren't THAT bad.
 
2021-04-18 8:34:31 PM  
Put out a good game and people will buy it.  Put out a game five years behind the trend and you get what you deserve.
 
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