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(YouTube)   What if "Jason and the Argonauts" had smoother stop motion i.e. 120fps vs. 24fps?   (youtube.com) divider line
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1373 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 13 Apr 2021 at 1:50 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-04-13 10:14:05 AM  
I'm not sure exactly what I was expecting but it still looks like stop motion animation.
 
2021-04-13 10:22:31 AM  
It looks smoother, no doubt, but there's nothing wrong with the original

That movie was awesome for its time
 
2021-04-13 10:28:30 AM  
What if Napoleon had a B-52 at Waterloo?

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-04-13 12:04:54 PM  
And watch it playing Frank Zappa instrumentals with the sound down.
 
2021-04-13 1:30:13 PM  
Heresy! You do not f8ck with Ray Harryhausen's work!
 
2021-04-13 1:52:36 PM  
Needs motion blur
 
2021-04-13 1:57:25 PM  
I saw very little difference and going from 24 fps to 120 fps is not 8x smoother.
 
2021-04-13 1:59:47 PM  
Definitely gave it that "videotape" look, and it also somehow looked less real.
 
2021-04-13 2:03:31 PM  
I need to rewatch this and the Sinbad movies of my youth. I loved those clunky things
 
2021-04-13 2:04:12 PM  
I'm still amazed at care and attention Harryhausen put into his stop motion animations. They felt like they were real things even though they clearly weren't.
 
2021-04-13 2:09:02 PM  

mjbok: Needs motion blur


The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.

The lighting and blending with the scene are off, as are other things about how the shots were composited.

Stop motion isn't why that looks wrong, and cranking up more interpolated frames in the middle of existing frames can't fix that.

Now, you could crop out the stop motion and replace it differently, but even the human footage there was likely at 29.97 FPS, so cranking the speed to 120Hz is a weird choice.

\I'm not ragging on the original for the work at the time, but by modern day standards, there's a laundry list to correct.
 
2021-04-13 2:17:08 PM  

Quantumbunny: The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.


It's a magic statue. Why should it have to move like a person would?
 
2021-04-13 2:25:08 PM  

OldRod: It looks smoother, no doubt, but there's nothing wrong with the original

That movie was is awesome for its time


FTFY.

Saw that last night.

I'm not sure if I like it or not.  Definitely smoother action, but then you notice they look like toys (which they kind of are).

So I'm on the fence.
 
2021-04-13 2:33:22 PM  

Quantumbunny: mjbok: Needs motion blur

The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.

The lighting and blending with the scene are off, as are other things about how the shots were composited.

Stop motion isn't why that looks wrong, and cranking up more interpolated frames in the middle of existing frames can't fix that.

Now, you could crop out the stop motion and replace it differently, but even the human footage there was likely at 29.97 FPS, so cranking the speed to 120Hz is a weird choice.

\I'm not ragging on the original for the work at the time, but by modern day standards, there's a laundry list to correct.


Talk is cheap. Let's see your version.
 
2021-04-13 2:38:33 PM  

mjbok: Needs motion blur


The improved version of stop-motion, called go-motion, blended movement with some motion blur.

Dragonslayer was done that way and they haven't made a scarier dragon onscreen yet since Vermithrax Pejorative.
 
2021-04-13 2:52:10 PM  

Quantumbunny: The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move.


Its been a long time since I took a few graphic design and animation classes but if I remember the lessons correctly, screen art standards are already pretty much optimized for the limits of human perception.

I've never understood the obsession 4K, 8K, what-the-fark-ever-K, and 120Hz, 240Hz, I-have-a-giant-dong-Hz. Its my understanding that unless you have superhuman vision you detect virtually no difference for your thousands of dollars upgrade. Isn't it mostly a gimmick for young men whose self image is tied to the specs of their electronics?

To Quantumbunny's point where you get return on investment is on the production side. Teaching your animators to really understand movement, inventing motion capture (cutting edge when I studied), processing power to make rendering faster and therefore allow more time for attention to detail. That's where the dollars count.

I've never seen this movie. It looks amazing for the time. Positioning is a bit wonky.
 
2021-04-13 2:55:21 PM  
Quantumbunny:
The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.
~
\I'm not ragging on the original for the work at the time, but by modern day standards, there's a laundry list to correct.



I feel as if you missed a key POV element going on here.
You assumed that the not human magical statue should move like  a flesh and blood human.
And yet you know it is in context, a magical statue so why did you apply such expectations to the motion of the statute?
Sounds a bit irrational to have imagined that the not organic metal magical construct creature would move exactly as you expected a flesh and blood organic one to.
I'd say that in my own mind's eye the inhuman motion of these objects lends a  realty to them. The reality that they are not flesh and blood and not natural to this world, they are not like us.

In the end there is just no reasonable compare between today and yesterday, what we are now we could not be if it were not for what came beofre us being what it was.
The expectation is that that which has had more time and more data to evolve itself, should be superior.
There is no meaningful point in any such compare except the one point, which is just to demonstrate the evolution or lack of, going on over time.
 
2021-04-13 2:59:07 PM  

falkone32: I'm still amazed at care and attention Harryhausen put into his stop motion animations. They felt like they were real things even though they clearly weren't.


And he put it all together in his frigging basement.
 
2021-04-13 3:24:56 PM  

wegro: I'm not sure exactly what I was expecting but it still looks like stop motion animation.


It's the fact that modern animation has computers to smooth out keyframes using curves. Manually manipulating each frame means it is impossible to pace the motion accurately, and our brains immediately recognize the unnatural motion - it is hardwired into our sensory filters that route through our hind brains.

A the time, it was certainly remarkable, and works well enough for monsters, where the unsettling motion actually enhances the desired effect, even if it is unintentional.

Extrapolating bad keyframes doesn't really improve much - if anything, it exaggerates the effect.
 
2021-04-13 3:46:22 PM  

LesserEvil: wegro: I'm not sure exactly what I was expecting but it still looks like stop motion animation.

It's the fact that modern animation has computers to smooth out keyframes using curves. Manually manipulating each frame means it is impossible to pace the motion accurately, and our brains immediately recognize the unnatural motion - it is hardwired into our sensory filters that route through our hind brains.

A the time, it was certainly remarkable, and works well enough for monsters, where the unsettling motion actually enhances the desired effect, even if it is unintentional.

Extrapolating bad keyframes doesn't really improve much - if anything, it exaggerates the effect.


Original is still the best

/prefer stop motion to CGI almost every time even when it's off it feels real

//Loved Kubo and the Two Strings, it's a gem if you missed it
 
2021-04-13 3:54:20 PM  
Your mom would stop calling at 3:00 AM for alimony?
 
2021-04-13 3:57:47 PM  
Just A Tiny Amount - Anyone Fancy A Pint?
Youtube f19hF7-nT8g
 
2021-04-13 4:36:52 PM  
Speeding up the FPS just made things worse. It gave it that "soap opera" effect and it really brought out the differences between what was filmed with live actors and what the stop motion parts were that were matte'd in (so to speak). At least the original did a better job at blending them.
 
2021-04-13 4:52:54 PM  

OldRod: It looks smoother, no doubt, but there's nothing wrong with the original

That movie was awesome for its time


It looks awesome for THIS time, too. I think Jason (and most of Harryhausen's best work) holds up great.

With the exception of the harpies, smoothing the animation looks WORSE. The slightly jerky animation of Talos and the skeletons makes them look creepy and otherworldly. It's fitting for what the creatures are. They shouldn't look smooth and natural: It's a giant metal statue and reanimated skeletons!
 
2021-04-13 4:55:11 PM  

Quantumbunny: The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.


But it's not a person, it's a 200-foot tall bronze statue. It shouldn't move like a person would move. The off-kilter, stiff motions is PERFECT for what the creature/character is and does not need to be "corrected" or made "realistic." It's exactly right as it is.
 
2021-04-13 5:07:51 PM  

shoegaze99: Quantumbunny: The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.

But it's not a person, it's a 200-foot tall bronze statue. It shouldn't move like a person would move. The off-kilter, stiff motions is PERFECT for what the creature/character is and does not need to be "corrected" or made "realistic." It's exactly right as it is.


Weigh is why I was saying the movement was better without adding in more extrapolated frames. It's not the movement that's really "off".

If there's anything off, it's because of limitations of film compositing as they had to do back in the day. If there's a need to fix anything, it could much more easily be fixed with CGI painting in off shadows, adding motion blur, lighting correction, etc.

I'm not knocking the original, I'm saying the extra hertz have fixed nothing and made it look and feel worse.
 
2021-04-13 6:03:54 PM  
I think this is like adding a 3d effect to a 2d movie, it's not going to look that good. The movie needs to be made for it from the start if the effect is going to look right. So when they use computers to increase the frames per second they are not doing the same thing as animating the stop motion at 120fps.

If it had been practical back then, and if Harryhausen had animated it at 120fps, it wouldn't look like what the computers create. It would look much better.

If you use a machine learning tool to create 4k textures out of 1024 pixel textures, the machine learning tool is not creating 4k worth of new detail. It's adding pixels in a way that fakes new detail. Same with this increase in framerate. Harryhausen animating it at 120fps would have been creating 120fps worth of motion.
 
2021-04-13 6:10:24 PM  
I met Ray harryhausen and he signed my First men in the Moon one sheet poster. He was an extraordinary gentleman, and a true groundbreaking talent who is the grandfather of all modern special effects. With the exception of clash of the Titans he did all the animation in his films alone. And he didn't even take notes... he could remember where things were moving. Really remarkable. The fight with the Kali statue in Golden Voyage of Sinbad is stunning.
 
2021-04-13 8:16:06 PM  

cocozilla: I met Ray harryhausen and he signed my First men in the Moon one sheet poster. He was an extraordinary gentleman, and a true groundbreaking talent who is the grandfather of all modern special effects. With the exception of clash of the Titans he did all the animation in his films alone. And he didn't even take notes... he could remember where things were moving. Really remarkable. The fight with the Kali statue in Golden Voyage of Sinbad is stunning.


Things like that really speak to the actors trust in his work.  They could go full force swinging at the air knowing Ray would would blend it in.
 
2021-04-13 8:24:28 PM  

Michael J Faux: Quantumbunny: mjbok: Needs motion blur

The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.

The lighting and blending with the scene are off, as are other things about how the shots were composited.

Stop motion isn't why that looks wrong, and cranking up more interpolated frames in the middle of existing frames can't fix that.

Now, you could crop out the stop motion and replace it differently, but even the human footage there was likely at 29.97 FPS, so cranking the speed to 120Hz is a weird choice.

\I'm not ragging on the original for the work at the time, but by modern day standards, there's a laundry list to correct.

Talk is cheap. Let's see your version.


Ben Wyatt Presents "Requiem for a Tuesday"
Youtube v-3EitDo3IA
 
2021-04-13 8:27:13 PM  

shoegaze99: Quantumbunny: The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.

But it's not a person, it's a 200-foot tall bronze statue. It shouldn't move like a person would move. The off-kilter, stiff motions is PERFECT for what the creature/character is and does not need to be "corrected" or made "realistic." It's exactly right as it is.


you're right in that it shouldn't move exactly like a person, but what it does lack is the general sense of mass that a 200ft statue would have.

Still love that film though.
 
2021-04-13 8:29:26 PM  

little red bot: Quantumbunny: The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move.

Its been a long time since I took a few graphic design and animation classes but if I remember the lessons correctly, screen art standards are already pretty much optimized for the limits of human perception.

I've never understood the obsession 4K, 8K, what-the-fark-ever-K, and 120Hz, 240Hz, I-have-a-giant-dong-Hz. Its my understanding that unless you have superhuman vision you detect virtually no difference for your thousands of dollars upgrade. Isn't it mostly a gimmick for young men whose self image is tied to the specs of their electronics?

To Quantumbunny's point where you get return on investment is on the production side. Teaching your animators to really understand movement, inventing motion capture (cutting edge when I studied), processing power to make rendering faster and therefore allow more time for attention to detail. That's where the dollars count.

I've never seen this movie. It looks amazing for the time. Positioning is a bit wonky.


Resolution differences alone are tricky since it also depends on viewing distance/screen size. However you can certainly notice different refresh rates.
 
2021-04-13 9:49:11 PM  
Stop trying to betterize classic movies, and you can burn in hell for messing with Ray Harryhausen's work..
 
2021-04-13 10:34:55 PM  
There's an exhibition - perhaps it'll come somewhere near you :

https://www.nationalgalleries.org/exh​i​bition/ray-harryhausen-titan-cinema
 
2021-04-13 11:22:18 PM  
The Ray Harryhausen Creature List
Youtube U9kmjW73-v4
 
2021-04-14 1:37:37 AM  

Quantumbunny: mjbok: Needs motion blur

The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.

The lighting and blending with the scene are off, as are other things about how the shots were composited.

Stop motion isn't why that looks wrong, and cranking up more interpolated frames in the middle of existing frames can't fix that.

Now, you could crop out the stop motion and replace it differently, but even the human footage there was likely at 29.97 FPS, so cranking the speed to 120Hz is a weird choice.

\I'm not ragging on the original for the work at the time, but by modern day standards, there's a laundry list to correct.


I actually like the inhuman motions from an inhuman animated statue. It looks a bit creepy and alien like it has to make an effort to move and isn't quite getting it right. It works for me.
 
2021-04-14 1:40:34 AM  

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: little red bot: Quantumbunny: The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move.

Its been a long time since I took a few graphic design and animation classes but if I remember the lessons correctly, screen art standards are already pretty much optimized for the limits of human perception.

I've never understood the obsession 4K, 8K, what-the-fark-ever-K, and 120Hz, 240Hz, I-have-a-giant-dong-Hz. Its my understanding that unless you have superhuman vision you detect virtually no difference for your thousands of dollars upgrade. Isn't it mostly a gimmick for young men whose self image is tied to the specs of their electronics?

To Quantumbunny's point where you get return on investment is on the production side. Teaching your animators to really understand movement, inventing motion capture (cutting edge when I studied), processing power to make rendering faster and therefore allow more time for attention to detail. That's where the dollars count.

I've never seen this movie. It looks amazing for the time. Positioning is a bit wonky.

Resolution differences alone are tricky since it also depends on viewing distance/screen size. However you can certainly notice different refresh rates.


I've never noticed any better resolution past 720p. My eyes changed recently and now I can't see better than 360p without glasses.
 
2021-04-14 2:21:30 AM  

SuperChuck: Quantumbunny: The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.

It's a magic statue. Why should it have to move like a person would?


Not only that but you can hear the metal grinding as it moves. It'd be bizarre to not see janky movement from that thing.

And that tweak didn't really add anything to the various scenes. Just a bit more fluid movements. Although, the fight with the skeletons at the end somehow looked better in the original version. Their movement seemed more off in the "fixed" version. I think it may have been because they did a great job with that scene and adjusting it fouled something up.
 
2021-04-14 6:54:34 AM  

cocozilla: I met Ray harryhausen and he signed my First men in the Moon one sheet poster. He was an extraordinary gentleman, and a true groundbreaking talent who is the grandfather of all modern special effects. With the exception of clash of the Titans he did all the animation in his films alone. And he didn't even take notes... he could remember where things were moving. Really remarkable. The fight with the Kali statue in Golden Voyage of Sinbad is stunning.


Agreed. When Harryhausen passed I posted this on my FB. Everyone has seen the skeletons. This is amazing.

The bonus in that movie was Caroline Munroe. She was in a few other low budget scifi films and her sole role in all her films, including this one, is to look pretty and show cleavage. She was great at both.

The Golden Voyage of Sinbad (1974) - Battle with Kali
Youtube ROssbvtE41U
 
2021-04-14 8:00:35 AM  

Quantumbunny: mjbok: Needs motion blur

The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move. Things like the arms going back too far, the leaning being over exaggerated, etc.


It's a statue come to life through magic.  It shouldn't look realistic or it could have just been some loser in a costume.
 
2021-04-14 9:48:13 AM  

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: little red bot: Quantumbunny: The original motion is wrong and wonky. The stop motion actually hides it better. The 120Hz version makes it more clear that the statue movement is unrealistic. It's still jerky and unnatural because the actual positions aren't how a person would move.

Its been a long time since I took a few graphic design and animation classes but if I remember the lessons correctly, screen art standards are already pretty much optimized for the limits of human perception.

I've never understood the obsession 4K, 8K, what-the-fark-ever-K, and 120Hz, 240Hz, I-have-a-giant-dong-Hz. Its my understanding that unless you have superhuman vision you detect virtually no difference for your thousands of dollars upgrade. Isn't it mostly a gimmick for young men whose self image is tied to the specs of their electronics?

To Quantumbunny's point where you get return on investment is on the production side. Teaching your animators to really understand movement, inventing motion capture (cutting edge when I studied), processing power to make rendering faster and therefore allow more time for attention to detail. That's where the dollars count.

I've never seen this movie. It looks amazing for the time. Positioning is a bit wonky.

Resolution differences alone are tricky since it also depends on viewing distance/screen size. However you can certainly notice different refresh rates.


Generally 4k allows for a larger screen and a closer viewing distance over 1080p.  I can see the easily difference between 1080p and 4k on my TV.
 
2021-04-14 12:21:13 PM  

whidbey: And watch it playing Frank Zappa instrumentals with the sound down.


What's the point of Zappa with the sound down?  Do you have some sign-language recordings of his instrumentals?
 
2021-04-14 12:45:34 PM  
I wish people would stop futzing with old movies and TV shows.  People keep taking a STAR TREK episode and going, "Let's replace all the interior sets now, and make them more futuristic!"  These usually aren't creative people by themselves, unlike Harryhausen, who was a consummate creator.  I'm not interested in SFX musical chairs with movies and shows that are fine the way they were made.

Anyway, whatever happened to 48fps?  Is that dead and buried?
 
2021-04-14 4:37:19 PM  

saturn badger: cocozilla: I met Ray harryhausen and he signed my First men in the Moon one sheet poster. He was an extraordinary gentleman, and a true groundbreaking talent who is the grandfather of all modern special effects. With the exception of clash of the Titans he did all the animation in his films alone. And he didn't even take notes... he could remember where things were moving. Really remarkable. The fight with the Kali statue in Golden Voyage of Sinbad is stunning.

Agreed. When Harryhausen passed I posted this on my FB. Everyone has seen the skeletons. This is amazing.

The bonus in that movie was Caroline Munroe. She was in a few other low budget scifi films and her sole role in all her films, including this one, is to look pretty and show cleavage. She was great at both.

[iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/ROssbvtE​41U?autoplay=1&widget_referrer=https%3​A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&start=0&enablejsap​i=1&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fark.com&​widgetid=3]


Not to mention Tom Baker in a very non-Doctor Who role as the villain
 
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