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(The New York Times)   For years, the Internet Engineering Task Force has been trying to do something about all the racist terminology that exists in tech, but for some crazy reason their plan to get together every now and then and hum for agreement hasn't seemed to work   (nytimes.com) divider line
    More: Fail, Internet Engineering Task Force, Standards organization, World Wide Web Consortium, Slavery, Racism, Standardization, Engineering, Proposals  
•       •       •

494 clicks; posted to STEM » on 13 Apr 2021 at 8:52 AM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-04-13 8:36:21 AM  
The Internet Engineering Task Force eschews voting, and it often measures consensus by asking opposing factions of engineers to hum during meetings. The hums are then assessed by volume and ferocity. Vigorous humming, even from only a few people, could indicate strong disagreement, a sign that consensus has not yet been reached.

Um. Telling everyone to hum as loud as you can to show whether or not you want some policy passed is a form of voting. It's a stupidly inefficient and juvenile approach to voting, but it's still voting.
 
2021-04-13 8:39:48 AM  
We have?
 
2021-04-13 8:49:16 AM  
I'll come back later. I have a network master/slave switch thing to fix.
I can probably whip it into shape pretty soon.
 
2021-04-13 9:01:07 AM  
I always like to think of the master/slave thing as kinda kinky, not racist (but obviously I KNOW it is by the terms)

/plug my jumpers baby
 
2021-04-13 9:01:49 AM  
Totally get the master/slave and I don't use it in my work anymore but whitelist/blacklist?
 
2021-04-13 9:07:08 AM  
I am pretty sure nobody gives a flying fark if engineers use the term master/ slave, or the name master bedroom. It is a canard to make victims of racism look petty.
 
2021-04-13 9:08:36 AM  

the_rhino: I always like to think of the master/slave thing as kinda kinky, not racist (but obviously I KNOW it is by the terms)

/plug my jumpers baby


Your safe word needs capitals, lower case, numbers, and at least one special character.
 
2021-04-13 9:08:38 AM  
This is why I don't drive manual vehicles anymore, those clutch cylinders are clearly racist!

//Just kidding, I haven't owned a slushbox in twenty years.
 
2021-04-13 9:16:00 AM  
Have the computer components been complaining? We shouldn't anthropromorphize them. On a side note, is "jumper setting" insensitive to skydivers?

i.imgflip.comView Full Size
 
2021-04-13 9:20:13 AM  
I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously
 
2021-04-13 9:27:20 AM  
Everyone knows it's "enslaved chip."
 
2021-04-13 9:27:23 AM  
Wait until they here about male and female connectors...
 
2021-04-13 9:27:55 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-04-13 9:28:03 AM  
*hear

/need more coffee
 
2021-04-13 9:29:38 AM  

Pocket Ninja: The Internet Engineering Task Force eschews voting, and it often measures consensus by asking opposing factions of engineers to hum during meetings. The hums are then assessed by volume and ferocity. Vigorous humming, even from only a few people, could indicate strong disagreement, a sign that consensus has not yet been reached.

Um. Telling everyone to hum as loud as you can to show whether or not you want some policy passed is a form of voting. It's a stupidly inefficient and juvenile approach to voting, but it's still voting.


Its the only way some of those nerds are ever going to get a hummer
 
2021-04-13 9:37:48 AM  

mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously


Nobody in their right mind has a problem with the word slave. Anybody pretending they do, is a liar.
 
2021-04-13 9:56:15 AM  

Pocket Ninja: The Internet Engineering Task Force eschews voting, and it often measures consensus by asking opposing factions of engineers to hum during meetings. The hums are then assessed by volume and ferocity. Vigorous humming, even from only a few people, could indicate strong disagreement, a sign that consensus has not yet been reached.

Um. Telling everyone to hum as loud as you can to show whether or not you want some policy passed is a form of voting. It's a stupidly inefficient and juvenile approach to voting, but it's still voting.


But it is non-confrontational. Imagine someone having to see that a clear majority is against a his or her proposal rather than a more nebulous judgment of "you should have hummed harder".

Lambskincoat: I am pretty sure nobody gives a flying fark if engineers use the term master/ slave, or the name master bedroom. It is a canard to make victims of racism look petty.


This isn't even about that. This is people going so far into woke territory that they're at risk of emerging on the other end of the spectrum. Anything that could possibly be considered racist by any single person somewhere needs to be dealt with. Just be glad they can only deal with the relative unimportant stuff like "how to name stuff 90% of the population doesn't know the existence of", and not "what to teach people".
 
2021-04-13 9:56:27 AM  
Wait till the IETF hears about BDSM.
 
2021-04-13 9:56:31 AM  

Lambskincoat: mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

Nobody in their right mind has a problem with the word slave. Anybody pretending they do, is a liar.


mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously


The marginalization of people is an issue that needs to be taken seriously.
 
2021-04-13 10:07:11 AM  

Misch: Lambskincoat: mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

Nobody in their right mind has a problem with the word slave. Anybody pretending they do, is a liar.

mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

The marginalization of people is an issue that needs to be taken seriously.


OK, no one is saying otherwise. The question is, does this actually matter? How often is the term even used anymore? I haven't used the term since the days of disk-less networked machines, or machines with multiple harddrives back in the day. Today the term is almost never used. In 16 years of programming I've never seen the term used in code either.
 
2021-04-13 10:16:34 AM  

phimuskapsi: Misch: Lambskincoat: mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

Nobody in their right mind has a problem with the word slave. Anybody pretending they do, is a liar.

mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

The marginalization of people is an issue that needs to be taken seriously.

OK, no one is saying otherwise. The question is, does this actually matter? How often is the term even used anymore? I haven't used the term since the days of disk-less networked machines, or machines with multiple harddrives back in the day. Today the term is almost never used. In 16 years of programming I've never seen the term used in code either.


For industrial equipment it is used a lot.  If you have multiple pieces working together in a system there is usually one with the master programming and data inputs to control the other ones.  It knows when it needs a second or third machine online so it brings them up and modulates them accordingly.  That is changing some with all of the units now pretty much having the master control programming so the "master" bounces from unit to unit for redundancy.
 
2021-04-13 10:21:20 AM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: phimuskapsi: Misch: Lambskincoat: mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

Nobody in their right mind has a problem with the word slave. Anybody pretending they do, is a liar.

mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

The marginalization of people is an issue that needs to be taken seriously.

OK, no one is saying otherwise. The question is, does this actually matter? How often is the term even used anymore? I haven't used the term since the days of disk-less networked machines, or machines with multiple harddrives back in the day. Today the term is almost never used. In 16 years of programming I've never seen the term used in code either.

For industrial equipment it is used a lot.  If you have multiple pieces working together in a system there is usually one with the master programming and data inputs to control the other ones.  It knows when it needs a second or third machine online so it brings them up and modulates them accordingly.  That is changing some with all of the units now pretty much having the master control programming so the "master" bounces from unit to unit for redundancy.


What's preventing you from changing the name to leader/follower or primary/alternate.

I would say leader/follower is even more descriptive a term for what your system shows.

I work on a system that has primary/alternate, though the software is stuck in the old terminology.
 
2021-04-13 10:21:43 AM  

phimuskapsi: OK, no one is saying otherwise. The question is, does this actually matter? How often is the term even used anymore? I haven't used the term since the days of disk-less networked machines, or machines with multiple harddrives back in the day. Today the term is almost never used. In 16 years of programming I've never seen the term used in code either.


"master" was coontil recently) the default branch name in git sccm.  Commonly used in situations involving clusters as well.

I dgaf either, but I respect the right of others to care about such things.  No skin off my back.

//26y, noob
///slashies!
 
2021-04-13 10:24:27 AM  

Misch: I would say leader/follower is even more descriptive a term for what your system shows.


Not really, the 'leader' in this case isn't leading anything, nor is it deciding anything in the traditional sense. 

Commander/soldier could be a better descriptor, as the instructions handed out from the top to 'sub-systems' are not optionally followed.
 
2021-04-13 10:24:27 AM  

Misch: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: phimuskapsi: Misch: Lambskincoat: mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

Nobody in their right mind has a problem with the word slave. Anybody pretending they do, is a liar.

mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

The marginalization of people is an issue that needs to be taken seriously.

OK, no one is saying otherwise. The question is, does this actually matter? How often is the term even used anymore? I haven't used the term since the days of disk-less networked machines, or machines with multiple harddrives back in the day. Today the term is almost never used. In 16 years of programming I've never seen the term used in code either.

For industrial equipment it is used a lot.  If you have multiple pieces working together in a system there is usually one with the master programming and data inputs to control the other ones.  It knows when it needs a second or third machine online so it brings them up and modulates them accordingly.  That is changing some with all of the units now pretty much having the master control programming so the "master" bounces from unit to unit for redundancy.

What's preventing you from changing the name to leader/follower or primary/alternate.

I would say leader/follower is even more descriptive a term for what your system shows.

I work on a system that has primary/alternate, though the software is stuck in the old terminology.


I use Lead/Lag mostly because it's more accurate anyway.
 
2021-04-13 10:28:06 AM  

Misch: Lambskincoat: mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

Nobody in their right mind has a problem with the word slave. Anybody pretending they do, is a liar.

mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

The marginalization of people is an issue that needs to be taken seriously.


You are correct.

Which is why this particular woke bullshiat concern needs to die a quicker death than a bullet into the back of the head.

"Serious" is the last word I'd use to describe this.
 
2021-04-13 10:34:41 AM  
CSB: at my last job, was on site with a field tech (younger black guy) and the maintenance manager (60 year old white dude).  The site had two servers, a primary and a secondary.  We were moving components over so we could pull the primary (it was acting up so we were going to bring it back to our office to poke at) and at one point I referred to them as master/slave.

Maintenance manager went all OMGWTFBBQ.  Field tech just stared at him like he was having a stroke.  Then again, as the "senior guy" onsite it was probably his ass on the line if the tech decided to make a stink to HR.
 
2021-04-13 10:37:36 AM  

scumm: "master" was coontil recently) the default branch name in git sccm.  Commonly used in situations involving clusters as well.


I honestly didn't even think of 'master' branch. The reason is that 'master' in that connotation is more akin in meaning to a 'master' media being used to press copies, not a master/slave relationship.
 
2021-04-13 10:40:17 AM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Totally get the master/slave and I don't use it in my work anymore but whitelist/blacklist?


Whitelist and blacklist have no history of racist origin or use. They're quite literally pissed off over the use of colours. If you can't get police and social reform guess you might as well focus on stupid shiat like this.
 
2021-04-13 10:47:19 AM  
"Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly" no longer ok either, I suppose.
 
2021-04-13 10:50:18 AM  

mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously


My wife has been doing the Ancestry thing for her side of the family. Found out that one of her great great great great etc ancestors were English and listed a Scottish slave on that eras version of tax documents.

I didn't even know that was a thing.
 
2021-04-13 11:06:01 AM  
I used cable select for all my components.

I also name my computers and firewall rules using cable select, which is an odd choice, but I'm sticking with it.

/Seriously, everything useful seems to have already been said here.
 
2021-04-13 11:10:55 AM  

Russ1642: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Totally get the master/slave and I don't use it in my work anymore but whitelist/blacklist?

Whitelist and blacklist have no history of racist origin or use. They're quite literally pissed off over the use of colours. If you can't get police and social reform guess you might as well focus on stupid shiat like this.


OTOH, whitelist and blacklist are ambiguous terms whose meaning is informed only by the user's knowledge of colloquialism. Allow-list and deny-list are better, and also more appropriate given our current racially charged environment.
 
2021-04-13 11:14:03 AM  

Misch: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: phimuskapsi: Misch: Lambskincoat: mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

Nobody in their right mind has a problem with the word slave. Anybody pretending they do, is a liar.

mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

The marginalization of people is an issue that needs to be taken seriously.

OK, no one is saying otherwise. The question is, does this actually matter? How often is the term even used anymore? I haven't used the term since the days of disk-less networked machines, or machines with multiple harddrives back in the day. Today the term is almost never used. In 16 years of programming I've never seen the term used in code either.

For industrial equipment it is used a lot.  If you have multiple pieces working together in a system there is usually one with the master programming and data inputs to control the other ones.  It knows when it needs a second or third machine online so it brings them up and modulates them accordingly.  That is changing some with all of the units now pretty much having the master control programming so the "master" bounces from unit to unit for redundancy.

What's preventing you from changing the name to leader/follower or primary/alternate.

I would say leader/follower is even more descriptive a term for what your system shows.


I work on a system that has primary/alternate, though the software is stuck in the old terminology.


So... you;re saying you embrace Hierarchist terminology? My, how non-democratic of you.
 
2021-04-13 11:15:16 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-04-13 11:30:55 AM  

Theaetetus: Russ1642: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Totally get the master/slave and I don't use it in my work anymore but whitelist/blacklist?

Whitelist and blacklist have no history of racist origin or use. They're quite literally pissed off over the use of colours. If you can't get police and social reform guess you might as well focus on stupid shiat like this.

OTOH, whitelist and blacklist are ambiguous terms whose meaning is informed only by the user's knowledge of colloquialism. Allow-list and deny-list are better, and also more appropriate given our current racially charged environment.


Hey, go ahead and change it if you want, but you're doing nothing for racial equality by making the change. It has nothing to do with that. I haven't seen the terms used for ages anyway because of noob confusion. It was a non-issue from the start.
 
2021-04-13 11:38:21 AM  
Again?
 
2021-04-13 12:29:59 PM  
I have always preferred "pimp/ho" so as not to offend anyone.
 
2021-04-13 12:32:30 PM  
Black people: Stop killing us!
Everyone: Okay, we'll change our terminology. We good now?
 
2021-04-13 12:40:33 PM  

Drunken Rampage: Black people: Stop killing us!
Everyone: Okay, we'll change our terminology. We good now?


Are you telling me that sanitizing really hard to find microagressions if you misunderstand terminology isn't more important than lives?

Some people try to overcompensate so far it's insulting.

I've been waiting for years to hear that we can't have black and white cookies anymore and the only way to be fair is to have two separate cookies.

If you use terms like equity because you don't think equality is fair enough, you are part of the problem.
 
2021-04-13 12:43:51 PM  
I never understood the reasoning for the main branch of a source control project being the "master". It makes no conceptual sense. It's not in control over the branches below it, quite the opposite.
 
2021-04-13 12:49:26 PM  
This whole thing seems like a low-effort solution to a non-problem just to drive page views. Does anyone on either side actually think this will help/hurt anything?
 
2021-04-13 1:03:24 PM  

xalres: I never understood the reasoning for the main branch of a source control project being the "master". It makes no conceptual sense. It's not in control over the branches below it, quite the opposite.


The metaphor isn't to master/slave but to a master mold or prototype or die.
 
2021-04-13 1:08:44 PM  

scumm: No skin off my back.


Was that... intentional?
 
2021-04-13 1:21:54 PM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: phimuskapsi: Misch: Lambskincoat: mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

Nobody in their right mind has a problem with the word slave. Anybody pretending they do, is a liar.

mjbok: I recently heard about this.  Do people not know that there have been slaves throughout history and a large number were not black?

When things this silly are taken seriously or makes actual issues harder to... Well, take seriously

The marginalization of people is an issue that needs to be taken seriously.

OK, no one is saying otherwise. The question is, does this actually matter? How often is the term even used anymore? I haven't used the term since the days of disk-less networked machines, or machines with multiple harddrives back in the day. Today the term is almost never used. In 16 years of programming I've never seen the term used in code either.

For industrial equipment it is used a lot.  If you have multiple pieces working together in a system there is usually one with the master programming and data inputs to control the other ones.  It knows when it needs a second or third machine online so it brings them up and modulates them accordingly.  That is changing some with all of the units now pretty much having the master control programming so the "master" bounces from unit to unit for redundancy.


Embedded systems examples:

* I2C - Master and slave
* SPI - MOSI, MISO (master out slave in, master in slave out)

Those terms are used for descriptive roles, not to promote enslavement.
 
2021-04-13 1:29:48 PM  

the_rhino: I always like to think of the master/slave thing as kinda kinky, not racist (but obviously I KNOW it is by the terms)

/plug my jumpers baby


I do wind up with the question in my head, if IT has a problematic lingo, does this term use issues apply to everything everywhere? Or do we let the kink sector off the offense hook for reasons?


Personally i got no care on what terms are used. I'd not want to be offending people around me.
While i can;'t help but notice, those who do to take offense surely seem to not allow that those who use such terms could ever do so without the same POV on meaning and intent as they personally have in their POV.

Authoritarianism is, ONE POV ONLY AND ALL MUST CONFORM TO ITS DEMANDS.

Don't matter how what you claim your POV is, don't even matter if it is the majority POV among us. Don't even matter how many of us do agree with that it is a good POV. When the one POV dictates terms to everyone, that is an authoritarian behavior. I will never fail to have noticed that behavior going on. Regardless of what all else i may find good about someone, authoritarian behavior is bad by my ideological POV, and does not get canceled out by my agreement that what they believe in is good.

In my ideology, the ends can not justify the means, the means we choose are no less a part of defining what we are, than what ends we aim at with them. And the POV that says, what i feel and what i see is what everyone must act upon and must see the same way, yeah that's authoritarianism.


No need for us to use these offensive terms, I'm down with this change. But i cannot lose sight of the no reality in which someone's words/terms are only one objective meaning that is only able to always be offensive in context.

If non offensive contexts do exists, the it is as much a chocie to not see them as it is to see them.
When context no longer matters, we will need to reduce all words to but one single objective meaning that is static and unchanged by any context ever.

We seem to lose sight of the reality that it is all relative, and that basically everything we ever experience is entierly contextual to its time and place. When we cannot flex to the contextual reality of a moment, that is kinda on us being inflexible and incapable of dealing in the relative reality that we do in fact exist in.

I do see authoritarianism as a natural reaction to us coping in the complicated relative contently defined existence that is so challenged to deal in. We want to be objectively universally right/correct/knowing of relativity/in context effort really bums us out and we like to overly simply the world to, our POV is objectively correct and real while everyone is the ass holes playing at make believe here.


So i'm cool with changes, but i do believe the means by which changes occour, the tone by which they are requested, are a massive influence on how that pans out over time.

I only see a future of needing to keep an authoritarian clamp on that other POV, as we're not reaching out to help it change to be with us, we're just paving over it telling it it was objectively wrong to not have seen the same subjective reality as the POV paving over it.

I'm pretty sure the historical records leaves nothig to guess at for how some people will react to having their POV entierly discounted and said to be wrong.
Big tip on the selling point/influencing with integrity, make the change asked for be one that shows strength for helping those who are weak and need the aid.

If you can't act humble and make it so the weaker drag on us all, feels like they are being the big boy and not the weak problem to be coped with.
Then that is an animal ego drive behavior of needing to show dominance. But an actually good at the job sales person knowledeg in human psychological manipulation, didn't have to show dominance to still get you to sign the paper work and feel as if you made that choice on your own, rather than due in some part to their  skillful psychological manipulation of you.
 
2021-04-13 1:36:59 PM  

PvtStash: the_rhino: I always like to think of the master/slave thing as kinda kinky, not racist (but obviously I KNOW it is by the terms)

/plug my jumpers baby

I do wind up with the question in my head, if IT has a problematic lingo, does this term use issues apply to everything everywhere? Or do we let the kink sector off the offense hook for reasons?


Personally i got no care on what terms are used. I'd not want to be offending people around me.
While i can;'t help but notice, those who do to take offense surely seem to not allow that those who use such terms could ever do so without the same POV on meaning and intent as they personally have in their POV.

Authoritarianism is, ONE POV ONLY AND ALL MUST CONFORM TO ITS DEMANDS.

Don't matter how what you claim your POV is, don't even matter if it is the majority POV among us. Don't even matter how many of us do agree with that it is a good POV. When the one POV dictates terms to everyone, that is an authoritarian behavior. I will never fail to have noticed that behavior going on. Regardless of what all else i may find good about someone, authoritarian behavior is bad by my ideological POV, and does not get canceled out by my agreement that what they believe in is good.

In my ideology, the ends can not justify the means, the means we choose are no less a part of defining what we are, than what ends we aim at with them. And the POV that says, what i feel and what i see is what everyone must act upon and must see the same way, yeah that's authoritarianism.


No need for us to use these offensive terms, I'm down with this change. But i cannot lose sight of the no reality in which someone's words/terms are only one objective meaning that is only able to always be offensive in context.

If non offensive contexts do exists, the it is as much a chocie to not see them as it is to see them.
When context no longer matters, we will need to reduce all words to but one single objective meaning that is static and unchanged by any conte ...


That's a lot of words bro, can we get a tl;dr?
 
2021-04-13 1:38:28 PM  
i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2021-04-13 1:41:51 PM  

Lambskincoat: I am pretty sure nobody gives a flying fark if engineers use the term master/ slave, or the name master bedroom. It is a canard to make victims of racism look petty.


Hydraulic clutches. Take a guess.
 
2021-04-13 1:42:04 PM  

JaCiNto: Wait until they here about male and female connectors...


You can have my male and female connectors when you pry them from my sticky fingers!

/Knew a guy who was involved with designing a fuel hose connector that was completely hermaphrotidic--if you had two identical units, you could connect them to each other.
//Lot harder to do with fluid flow than with electronics.
///At least if you want a decent seal.
 
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