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(Imgur)   One of the best essays on the complicated mess that led up to The Troubles subby has ever read   (imgur.com) divider line
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3539 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Apr 2021 at 1:44 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-04-12 11:17:42 AM  
Much shorter version. For 100s of years the British treated Ireland as slave state and when the Irish complained the British burned, pillaged and murdered people.  The British religious segregation imposed on Ireland finally caused the Irish to fight against British tyranny.
 
2021-04-12 12:57:30 PM  
Check out the Sutton index in the references.  That will sober you right up.
 
2021-04-12 1:34:27 PM  

eurotrader: Much shorter version


The essay gives rather more nuances.
 
2021-04-12 1:50:50 PM  

abb3w: eurotrader: Much shorter version

The essay gives rather more nuances.


I've been reading that Imgur poster's posts for a while now, so I knew which essay this was without even clicking the link. He does his research.
 
2021-04-12 1:50:56 PM  
Imagine if the U.S. had the same type of sensibility as the Irish when they refer to their violent internal conflict "The Troubles". It'd be like us calling mass shootings "A Time to Think and Pray".
 
2021-04-12 1:52:24 PM  
Apparently it was caused by Amazon

Fark user imageView Full Size


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-04-12 1:59:18 PM  
It's NOT a short post.

Especially when you type 3 sentences and then post pictures. Then 3 more sentences, and another picture... Daily Mail is NOT a format that you want to emulate.
 
2021-04-12 1:59:42 PM  

abb3w: eurotrader: Much shorter version

The essay gives rather more nuances.


It is a well written and researched piece is not disputed. I bet anyone reading it in Derry would agree with most of it. The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.
 
2021-04-12 2:00:49 PM  

eurotrader: Much shorter version. For 100s of years the British treated Ireland as slave state and when the Irish complained the British burned, pillaged and murdered people.  The British religious segregation imposed on Ireland finally caused the Irish to fight against British tyranny.


The English were surprised that the Irish weren't docile like their other celtic brothers, the Welsh, or were just a wee bit rebelious like the Scots.
 
2021-04-12 2:03:33 PM  
led
 
2021-04-12 2:03:57 PM  
If you like essays that are *very generous* to English terrorism I guess.
 
2021-04-12 2:05:06 PM  
It is a good article, and obviously to keep it reasonably concise, it has been summarized.  One aspect of "the troubles" not mentioned is the organized crime that took place during this period.  Under the protection of terror and terrorists there was widespread organized crime in Northern Ireland, by both Catholic affiliated and Protestant affiliated gangs.  It was very profitable to know that too much curiosity about criminal enterprise could be met with armed gangs and nobody would even blink.  Both sides used criminal profits to buy weapons that were used for terrorist acts.
 
2021-04-12 2:05:50 PM  
...but enough about the run-up to the 2016 election...
 
2021-04-12 2:06:07 PM  

eurotrader: abb3w: eurotrader: Much shorter version

The essay gives rather more nuances.

It is a well written and researched piece is not disputed. I bet anyone reading it in Derry would agree with most of it. The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.


The money (shipbuilding) was in the North, the potatoes in the South.
 
2021-04-12 2:06:41 PM  

eurotrader: It is a well written and researched piece is not disputed. I bet anyone reading it in Derry would agree with most of it. The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.


Because the Irish Protestants were worried that once they were a minority, they'd be treated like the Protestants had treated the Catholic minority?
 
2021-04-12 2:10:58 PM  

abb3w: eurotrader: Much shorter version

The essay gives rather more nuances.


The essay sucks. Despite the various genetic roots, the Troubles of the 70s forward were driven by systemicc injustice in NI including systemic oppression of the Catholic population by the mix of the police and Unionist Paramilitary organizations.

To focus on the IRA as a contiguous thing is disingenuous. The fuel for the Troubles was continued, politically  backed, state sponsored oppression. This crafted a landscape for the vestiges of the origin IRA to recruit. Then, as often happens, an entity grew up as a criminal enterprise that became more consumed with the maintenance of the enterprise  than that which spawned them. By that, I mean the IRA became more involved in maintaining the IRA than in fighting for the rights of those oppressed. That means they were then invested in maintaining the conflict more than in winning or solving problems.
 
2021-04-12 2:12:17 PM  
How many people here know the symbolism of the Irish flag?   Green for Ireland.  White for Peace.  And Orange for the Ulster.

This could have been ended a long farking time ago.
 
2021-04-12 2:16:26 PM  

DarnoKonrad: How many people here know the symbolism of the Irish flag?   Green for Ireland.  White for Peace.  And Orange for the Ulster.

This could have been ended a long farking time ago.


Pfft, it's green for Ireland, white for the potato, and caramel for the whiskey.
 
2021-04-12 2:17:40 PM  
Are they seriously BSAB-ing a long violent history British imperialism?
 
2021-04-12 2:17:48 PM  
The essay is historically accurate but ignores the primary reason Ulster is loyalist to this day. The plantation of both English and Scots settlers in Ulster.
This act sealed the fate of Northern Ireland as a major divisive stumbling block to peaceful reunification, independent of the UK.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant​a​tion_of_Ulster
 
2021-04-12 2:20:05 PM  

Troy Aikman's Giant Thumbs: DarnoKonrad: How many people here know the symbolism of the Irish flag?   Green for Ireland.  White for Peace.  And Orange for the Ulster.

This could have been ended a long farking time ago.

Pfft, it's green for Ireland, white for the potato, and caramel for the whiskey.


And a spinny wheel thing for Indian food.
upload.wikimedia.orgView Full Size

upload.wikimedia.orgView Full Size
 
2021-04-12 2:24:43 PM  

Mikey1969: It's NOT a short post.

Especially when you type 3 sentences and then post pictures. Then 3 more sentences, and another picture... Daily Mail is NOT a format that you want to emulate.


You know that imgur is an image sharing site, right? Argue that the essay should have been posted somewhere else if you want, but you're facing an uphill battle if you want fewer pictures posted on photobucket's and facebook's bastard stepchild.
 
2021-04-12 2:26:31 PM  

eurotrader: Much shorter version. For 100s of years the British treated Ireland as slave state and when the Irish complained the British burned, pillaged and murdered people.  The British religious segregation imposed on Ireland finally caused the Irish to fight against British tyranny.


I was intrigued by the slave state comment, never heard that before, so I googled it and found this.
 
2021-04-12 2:28:32 PM  

eurotrader: The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.


That would probably take an essay as long as the original to explain, but the closest to a TL;DR was that enough in the North wanted to be part of the UK, and had both the political and military power to ensure that this happened. A big part of this was that the Loyalists (being loyal to the UK) were strongly supported by many UK governments, and the Nationalists (wanting a United Ireland) were not. However, to say this glosses the issue is the understatement of the century.

The thing that idled the dispute (and the author points out that this was in no way a goal of that process) was the UK and Ireland both joining the EU and the EU Common Market, which basically made the border between the North and the rest of Ireland just a line on some map somewhere. The actual people never saw that border, never interacted with it. They just went to work (wherever that was) and then went home (wherever that was) then went out with friends (wherever they were.) The peace held because, well, the North was part of the UK, but the entire island acted as if it was one country. There wasn't anything, really, to be won that they didn't already seems to have.

But that's changed.
 
2021-04-12 2:29:18 PM  
I wonder how much of the current problems are based on :
a)generational revenge
b)egos in politics. for the two irelands to become one there will be at a few party leaders out of a job and one head of state...no to mention all the cabinet positions. oh and Boris looking like an even bigger boob.

I bet if you gave the decision over to the GenZ crowd they wouldn't care one bit if they ditched the UK and became one big Ireland.

Unfortunately its still the boomers in charge.
 
2021-04-12 2:32:03 PM  

eurotrader: abb3w: eurotrader: Much shorter version

The essay gives rather more nuances.

It is a well written and researched piece is not disputed. I bet anyone reading it in Derry would agree with most of it. The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.


The bulk of former British colonial possessions gained independence after the end of the second world war. The empire was in full swing when Ireland won its war with Britain.
 
2021-04-12 2:36:52 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: eurotrader: The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.

That would probably take an essay as long as the original to explain, but the closest to a TL;DR was that enough in the North wanted to be part of the UK, and had both the political and military power to ensure that this happened. A big part of this was that the Loyalists (being loyal to the UK) were strongly supported by many UK governments, and the Nationalists (wanting a United Ireland) were not. However, to say this glosses the issue is the understatement of the century.

The thing that idled the dispute (and the author points out that this was in no way a goal of that process) was the UK and Ireland both joining the EU and the EU Common Market, which basically made the border between the North and the rest of Ireland just a line on some map somewhere. The actual people never saw that border, never interacted with it. They just went to work (wherever that was) and then went home (wherever that was) then went out with friends (wherever they were.) The peace held because, well, the North was part of the UK, but the entire island acted as if it was one country. There wasn't anything, really, to be won that they didn't already seems to have.

But that's changed.


I still remember the first time I wanted a home base in Europe (or close enough) I looked at and stayed in Belfast because the rents were incredibly cheap compared to other cities. After a few months I understood why.
 
2021-04-12 2:41:33 PM  

Gpzjock: The essay is historically accurate but ignores the primary reason Ulster is loyalist to this day. The plantation of both English and Scots settlers in Ulster.
This act sealed the fate of Northern Ireland as a major divisive stumbling block to peaceful reunification, independent of the UK.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planta​tion_of_Ulster


So it's Martin Luther's fault.  He always was a trouble maker.  I knew there was something funny about him.
 
2021-04-12 2:44:16 PM  
One of the best essays on the complicated mess that      lead up to The Troubles subby has ever read

jdnwdnfv;jaev'WEF3KRFLE V,M ALKFCFV
 
2021-04-12 2:45:00 PM  

eurotrader: Much shorter version. For 100s of years the British treated Ireland as slave state and when the Irish complained the British burned, pillaged and murdered people.  The British religious segregation imposed on Ireland finally caused the Irish to fight against British tyranny.


You left out the bit where they created a colony to put in a hostile tribe of Scots (they were not only Scots, but boarder reavers.  They were hostile to *everybody*).

So they have these two tribes, one native Catholic, one Protestant who have been there for centuries and naturally think of it as home.  And over both of them you have an Army "keeping the peace" but always siding with the Protestants.

And no, this didn't start in 1906.  The Irish/English bit started with Henry VIII.  The Protestant/Irish bit specific to Northern Ireland started around 1600.  But as long as you have the dynamic of two "native" tribes and overlords siding with the same tribe, you will keep getting "troubles".

The latest bit is that Brexit is completely screwing up the peace.  Presumably the whole "brexit where we want but not where we don't want" types assume that the boarder will remain as is, and allow legal smuggling to between EU and UK.  The EU isn't buying that and expects something else, and the Irish see a united Ireland as the only viable way to have an open boarder between the NI and Ireland, as you can't really have an open boarder between two countries (yes, the EU is effectively a "country", if not a nation.  Get over it).  The Protestants also fear that this is true and as expected are losing their minds.
 
2021-04-12 2:46:11 PM  

I'm no expert but...: eurotrader: abb3w: eurotrader: Much shorter version

The essay gives rather more nuances.

It is a well written and researched piece is not disputed. I bet anyone reading it in Derry would agree with most of it. The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.

The bulk of former British colonial possessions gained independence after the end of the second world war. The empire was in full swing when Ireland won its war with Britain.


Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.
 
2021-04-12 2:48:24 PM  

yet_another_wumpus: The Protestants also fear that this is true and as expected are losing their minds.


To be fair, the Protestants have been losing their minds since about 1610 or so.  Give or take.
 
2021-04-12 2:49:33 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: Mikey1969: It's NOT a short post.

Especially when you type 3 sentences and then post pictures. Then 3 more sentences, and another picture... Daily Mail is NOT a format that you want to emulate.

You know that imgur is an image sharing site, right? Argue that the essay should have been posted somewhere else if you want, but you're facing an uphill battle if you want fewer pictures posted on photobucket's and facebook's bastard stepchild.


And who doesn't like women handling firearms?  Come on!
 
2021-04-12 2:49:59 PM  
I was not aware of the loyalty oath in the 1921 treaty nor was I aware of the many splits in the IRA.
And many comments here are teaching me other important details.
I suppose that it's just one of those situations that can't really be succinctly summarized.
 
2021-04-12 2:51:18 PM  

abb3w: eurotrader: It is a well written and researched piece is not disputed. I bet anyone reading it in Derry would agree with most of it. The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.

Because the Irish Protestants were worried that once they were a minority, they'd be treated like the Protestants had treated the Catholic minority?


Why couldn't they just game the courts and gerrymander the counties?
 
2021-04-12 2:52:10 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.


Why do people keep spreading this nonsense?  Ireland was officially neutral during WWII.  If they "sided" with anyone, it was through unofficial cooperation with the Allies over things like shipping lanes, sea mines and blackouts.
 
2021-04-12 2:52:50 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: I'm no expert but...: eurotrader: abb3w: eurotrader: Much shorter version

The essay gives rather more nuances.

It is a well written and researched piece is not disputed. I bet anyone reading it in Derry would agree with most of it. The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.

The bulk of former British colonial possessions gained independence after the end of the second world war. The empire was in full swing when Ireland won its war with Britain.

Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.


Iirc, Ireland was legally neutral during ww2 but the Germans did get some help moving spies across the Irish sea. It would have been inevitable, considering then recent history.
 
2021-04-12 2:55:42 PM  

El_Swino: Marcus Aurelius: Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.

Why do people keep spreading this nonsense?  Ireland was officially neutral during WWII.  If they "sided" with anyone, it was through unofficial cooperation with the Allies over things like shipping lanes, sea mines and blackouts.


Reread the paragraph about Sean Russell.
 
2021-04-12 3:06:51 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: I'm no expert but...: eurotrader: abb3w: eurotrader: Much shorter version

The essay gives rather more nuances.

It is a well written and researched piece is not disputed. I bet anyone reading it in Derry would agree with most of it. The issue is why was Ireland not allowed to be a United country way back when the shackles of oppressive colonialism were being removed from other british holdings , India, mid east, caribbean etc.

The bulk of former British colonial possessions gained independence after the end of the second world war. The empire was in full swing when Ireland won its war with Britain.

Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.


Ireland did not side with the Germans in WW2. That would have seen the Irish state extinguished.

Ireland remained neutral. There was no official support for Germany, and Ireland provided a far greater level of unofficial support and policy orientation to the Allies over the course of the war.
 
2021-04-12 3:12:03 PM  

detonator: El_Swino: Marcus Aurelius: Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.

Why do people keep spreading this nonsense?  Ireland was officially neutral during WWII.  If they "sided" with anyone, it was through unofficial cooperation with the Allies over things like shipping lanes, sea mines and blackouts.

Reread the paragraph about Sean Russell.


So an IRA leader cozying up to the Nazis is "Ireland sided with the Germans"?  That's just as stupid an assertion as the first one.
 
2021-04-12 3:14:40 PM  

El_Swino: detonator: El_Swino: Marcus Aurelius: Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.

Why do people keep spreading this nonsense?  Ireland was officially neutral during WWII.  If they "sided" with anyone, it was through unofficial cooperation with the Allies over things like shipping lanes, sea mines and blackouts.

Reread the paragraph about Sean Russell.

So an IRA leader cozying up to the Nazis is "Ireland sided with the Germans"?  That's just as stupid an assertion as the first one.


I didn't say that. I just answered your question  as of why people think that.
Being a quick reactionary isn't too smart on your end, ace.
 
2021-04-12 3:18:56 PM  

detonator: El_Swino: detonator: El_Swino: Marcus Aurelius: Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.

Why do people keep spreading this nonsense?  Ireland was officially neutral during WWII.  If they "sided" with anyone, it was through unofficial cooperation with the Allies over things like shipping lanes, sea mines and blackouts.

Reread the paragraph about Sean Russell.

So an IRA leader cozying up to the Nazis is "Ireland sided with the Germans"?  That's just as stupid an assertion as the first one.

I didn't say that. I just answered your question  as of why people think that.
Being a quick reactionary isn't too smart on your end, ace.


My comment still stands.  It's still a stupid assertion.  You're a little too eager to take offense, "ace".
 
2021-04-12 3:21:59 PM  

El_Swino: detonator: El_Swino: detonator: El_Swino: Marcus Aurelius: Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.

Why do people keep spreading this nonsense?  Ireland was officially neutral during WWII.  If they "sided" with anyone, it was through unofficial cooperation with the Allies over things like shipping lanes, sea mines and blackouts.

Reread the paragraph about Sean Russell.

So an IRA leader cozying up to the Nazis is "Ireland sided with the Germans"?  That's just as stupid an assertion as the first one.

I didn't say that. I just answered your question  as of why people think that.
Being a quick reactionary isn't too smart on your end, ace.

My comment still stands.  It's still a stupid assertion.  You're a little too eager to take offense, "ace".


I apologize. I thought you were insulting me. I understand your position. It iS a stupid assumption to make in that context.
 
2021-04-12 3:22:33 PM  
There's a lot of whatabout to go around, it seems.
 
2021-04-12 3:30:42 PM  

El_Swino: detonator: El_Swino: detonator: El_Swino: Marcus Aurelius: Ireland also sided with the Germans in WWII, and the English were kind of pissed about that.  I'm not sure they had a right to be, but they were all the same.

Why do people keep spreading this nonsense?  Ireland was officially neutral during WWII.  If they "sided" with anyone, it was through unofficial cooperation with the Allies over things like shipping lanes, sea mines and blackouts.

Reread the paragraph about Sean Russell.

So an IRA leader cozying up to the Nazis is "Ireland sided with the Germans"?  That's just as stupid an assertion as the first one.

I didn't say that. I just answered your question  as of why people think that.
Being a quick reactionary isn't too smart on your end, ace.

My comment still stands.  It's still a stupid assertion.  You're a little too eager to take offense, "ace".


FYI
I've spent a lot of time in Ulster. As I said in other threads about Ulster, I have a good friend who offered me his house in Derry as a refuge if Trump had completely trashed the country.
He had a cousin that lived in the Creggan that was killed on Bloody Sunday.  I know a bit about the subject and that's why I was quick to be offended.
 
2021-04-12 3:36:47 PM  

wademh: abb3w: eurotrader: Much shorter version

The essay gives rather more nuances.

The essay sucks. Despite the various genetic roots, the Troubles of the 70s forward were driven by systemicc injustice in NI including systemic oppression of the Catholic population by the mix of the police and Unionist Paramilitary organizations.

To focus on the IRA as a contiguous thing is disingenuous. The fuel for the Troubles was continued, politically  backed, state sponsored oppression. This crafted a landscape for the vestiges of the origin IRA to recruit. Then, as often happens, an entity grew up as a criminal enterprise that became more consumed with the maintenance of the enterprise  than that which spawned them. By that, I mean the IRA became more involved in maintaining the IRA than in fighting for the rights of those oppressed. That means they were then invested in maintaining the conflict more than in winning or solving problems.


Any movement in history which attempts to perpetuate itself, becomes reactionary.
Josip Broz Tito
 
2021-04-12 3:39:56 PM  

detonator: I know a bit about the subject and that's why I was quick to be offended.


I respect that. It remains the case that the only way there will be peace is if become doggedly determined not to be offended.
 
2021-04-12 3:43:50 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: detonator: I know a bit about the subject and that's why I was quick to be offended.

I respect that. It remains the case that the only way there will be peace is if become doggedly determined not to be offended.


I tend to forget that myself, right?
 
2021-04-12 4:00:05 PM  
Is it Irish mordant black humor to think the best hope for a peacefully reunited Ireland is because a great number of English fools decided to step on their own dicks and enact Brexit?
 
2021-04-12 4:03:40 PM  

KiwDaWabbit: Imagine if the U.S. had the same type of sensibility as the Irish when they refer to their violent internal conflict "The Troubles". It'd be like us calling mass shootings "A Time to Think and Pray".


You know, that's how everyone is going to start referring to shootings from now on. So, thanks for that.
 
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