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(Onion AV Club)   Apparently Voldemort cannot smell the shiat J.K Rowling is in, decides to do his evil beside her   (film.avclub.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Ralph Fiennes, Transgender, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, Lord Voldemort, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban  
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1514 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 19 Mar 2021 at 12:00 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-03-19 4:21:53 AM  
Just Kidding Rowling has the amazing intellect of someone who didn't realize they were writing fantasy until after she completed her first Harry Potter novel. It's a bit like Orson Scott Card.

Enjoy the books, ignore the author.
 
2021-03-19 4:55:10 AM  
twitter happened, no good can ever come from being on twitter
 
2021-03-19 5:45:56 AM  
Well, he is English. They think it's ok to take over a country and steal its resources, as long as you're polite about it.

\whereas in America we think it's ok and don't give a fark about being polite
 
2021-03-19 7:33:17 AM  

starsrift: Enjoy the books, ignore the author.


I only enjoy original work.
 
2021-03-19 7:38:25 AM  
I've met one trans person (that I'm aware of) in my entire life.  My high school aged daughter asked if I would drive her over to Bob's house to hang out.  I ask who the hell is Bob, and where does he live.  Oh, Bob Bobworth (a family we know.)  Wait, the Bobworths have a son? Mary is now Bob.  I think a second, some thoughts run through my brain, and decide I don't need to know the specifics about what's in the pants of a 15 year old kid.  I said "grab the car keys, you can practice driving on the way over."

What I remember about then Mary, was that then she was always moping about and seemingly unhappy.  What I remember about Bob is that he was a smiling happy, confident, active kid.  It seems pretty bizarre to believe, without ever meeting Bob, that he was some kind of pervert trying to get into the boys bathrooms, that he was doing it to gain some competitive advantage in sportsball, or academics, or whatever.  The kid just wanted to be comfortable in his own skin.

This kind of weird thinking is just so bizarrely illogical.  I can't think of a good analogy, so here's a bad one.  Do you wear Levi's or Wrangler jeans.  Wrangler.  Oh, Wrangler, that's weird, that means you want to be a peeping Tom in the bathroom and get an unfair advantage in sportsball.  What? no!  I just find them more comfortable.

Who the hell would jump to those conclusions?
 
2021-03-19 7:51:53 AM  
Ker_Thwap:

Perverts.
 
2021-03-19 8:03:45 AM  
I must be an old man now, but I want to say keeping track of doing the whole pronoun thing is akward and hard.

I will of course do it, because that is my problem, not theirs. I grew up not having to worry about that but now I have to worry about that and if getting it right in conversation means the other person feels more comfortable and there is slightly more happiness in the world, then so be it.

But I just want to acknowledge it is hard. It's hard but I should do it anyway.
 
2021-03-19 8:27:26 AM  
Be woke at her as much as you want. She still has all your money.
 
2021-03-19 8:50:59 AM  

AAAAGGGGHHHH: Be woke at her as much as you want. She still has all your money.


Not mine.  No ideology, just never gave  shiat about the series.
 
2021-03-19 8:52:52 AM  
More evidence for my "JKR made a deal, just enough talent for seven books and then she gives up her soul" theory.
 
2021-03-19 9:26:31 AM  
Another asshole whose work I won't see again. And "enjoying the work ignore the author" is absolute bullshiat. I'm not putting my money in their pockets.
 
2021-03-19 9:29:17 AM  

OceanVortex: I must be an old man now, but I want to say keeping track of doing the whole pronoun thing is akward and hard.

I will of course do it, because that is my problem, not theirs. I grew up not having to worry about that but now I have to worry about that and if getting it right in conversation means the other person feels more comfortable and there is slightly more happiness in the world, then so be it.

But I just want to acknowledge it is hard. It's hard but I should do it anyway.


I do think it's kind of odd in literature when you're reading a book and it drops a they/their in there when talking about a single person. 'Wait a second, there's only one other person in the room the character is talking to right?' Flip back a page or so, read it again.  "Ohhhhhhhhhh, ok".
 
2021-03-19 10:18:26 AM  

gwoardnog: OceanVortex: I must be an old man now, but I want to say keeping track of doing the whole pronoun thing is akward and hard.

I will of course do it, because that is my problem, not theirs. I grew up not having to worry about that but now I have to worry about that and if getting it right in conversation means the other person feels more comfortable and there is slightly more happiness in the world, then so be it.

But I just want to acknowledge it is hard. It's hard but I should do it anyway.

I do think it's kind of odd in literature when you're reading a book and it drops a they/their in there when talking about a single person. 'Wait a second, there's only one other person in the room the character is talking to right?' Flip back a page or so, read it again.  "Ohhhhhhhhhh, ok".


True, but try to read Hemingway, and then flipping back four pages to get the conversation back into sync on who is talking to whom,
 
2021-03-19 10:44:32 AM  
Her last good movie was Step Brothers..


Oh wait... shiat nevermind
 
2021-03-19 11:11:05 AM  
Ahh, the culture wars.

Listen to me, my point has validity!  Now, Cancel her since she said something that I don't like!

Language, power and values all at a crossroads.
 
2021-03-19 12:15:39 PM  

Bslim: Another asshole whose work I won't see again. And "enjoying the work ignore the author" is absolute bullshiat. I'm not putting my money in their pockets.


Thanks for letting us know!
 
2021-03-19 12:23:39 PM  

HeadLever: Ahh, the culture wars.

Listen to me, my point has validity!  Now, Cancel her since she said something that I don't like carries enough influence to perpetuate violence against others!

Language, power and values all at a crossroads.



FTFY
 
2021-03-19 12:32:10 PM  
Didn't she say "the lived experiences of AFAB people are different than the lived experiences of MTF people?"
 
2021-03-19 12:40:07 PM  

OtherLittleGuy: HeadLever: Ahh, the culture wars.

Listen to me, my point has validity!  Now, Cancel her since she said something that I don't like carries enough influence to perpetuate violence against others!

Language, power and values all at a crossroads.


FTFY


Actually, it appears that the tendency to perpetuate violence against others for political gain and those that like to cancel people are on the same side.  It also appears to be a trend that is increasing rapidly.

pbs.twimg.comView Full Size
 
2021-03-19 12:42:52 PM  

TheCenturion: Didn't she say "the lived experiences of AFAB people are different than the lived experiences of MTF people?"


Is that controversial?

I can see where that point would have some validity.

Or am I missing something here?
 
2021-03-19 12:57:22 PM  

HeadLever: TheCenturion: Didn't she say "the lived experiences of AFAB people are different than the lived experiences of MTF people?"

Is that controversial?

I can see where that point would have some validity.

Or am I missing something here?


In itself, it's probably as controversial as saying "the skin colour of Sub-Saharan peoples is different from that of Caucasian peoples."

The problem arises when you add "... so they don't deserve to be treated equally."
 
2021-03-19 1:04:45 PM  
"Voldemort "can't understand" what J.K. Rowling did to make us all so mad"


no problem this is actually super duper easy.

She failed to meet some people's expectations.
and that is primarily it.

There is of courser the  secondary upsetness that any famous enough person would use their fame platform to espouse their own ideology that did not agree with someone else's.
But that's just a generic situate going on al the time between tons of people.

But what we got here in all the real upset going on, is that she was in fact a hero of some people who wanted to presume she shared in their own personal POV values too.
And then we she failed to meet their assumed expectations of her sociopolitical POV, that really pissed them off.
you know cause they were making wrong assumptions and people hate being caught being wrong about their assumptions.

That is the reason the lvl/amount of upset is what it is, people had assumed of her more enlightenment then she has now displayed, and so they are mad they look bad for having supported her previously, not so bright for making wrong assumption apparently, and no one likes founding out their heroes are as much an asshole as any other humans is really.

Cause yeah we can easily take the piss out on a shiat like David Duke, we all know what he is. And that's a real different situaiotn than suddenly having to discover a cherished hero of your own was actually a right human POS.


It's not a new idea at all been a around long time, never meet your heroes.
 
2021-03-19 2:02:46 PM  

turboke: HeadLever: TheCenturion: Didn't she say "the lived experiences of AFAB people are different than the lived experiences of MTF people?"

Is that controversial?

I can see where that point would have some validity.

Or am I missing something here?

In itself, it's probably as controversial as saying "the skin colour of Sub-Saharan peoples is different from that of Caucasian peoples."

The problem arises when you add "... so they don't deserve to be treated equally."


Do they deserve to be treated equally?  Or equitably?  There's a difference.  So given that I haven't been following this particular issue all that closely: in what ways does she say they should be treated differently?

I mean, I do, in fact, have a problem with the idea that MtF athletes, for example, should be competing directly against AFAB athletes where size and strength come into play; they are not, in fact, equal.  Testosterone is a hell of a growth hormone.
 
2021-03-19 2:37:42 PM  

TheCenturion: turboke: HeadLever: TheCenturion: Didn't she say "the lived experiences of AFAB people are different than the lived experiences of MTF people?"

Is that controversial?

I can see where that point would have some validity.

Or am I missing something here?

In itself, it's probably as controversial as saying "the skin colour of Sub-Saharan peoples is different from that of Caucasian peoples."

The problem arises when you add "... so they don't deserve to be treated equally."

Do they deserve to be treated equally?  Or equitably?  There's a difference.  So given that I haven't been following this particular issue all that closely: in what ways does she say they should be treated differently?

I mean, I do, in fact, have a problem with the idea that MtF athletes, for example, should be competing directly against AFAB athletes where size and strength come into play; they are not, in fact, equal.  Testosterone is a hell of a growth hormone.


Athletes, athletes, athletes, athletes.  It's 90% of the suppoed concern talking points on the issue, and yet comprises a vanishingly small proportion of those affected.  It's almost as though the point gets raised less out of a genuine concern for the scale and effect of that impact than as a proxy to assault the whole premise of trans people in general.

The feigned concern that such posts demonstrate is both obviously insincere and reminiscent of every paternalistic excuse for establishing some form of supremacy since the beginning of humankind.
 
2021-03-19 3:00:31 PM  

TheCenturion: Do they deserve to be treated equally?  Or equitably?  There's a difference.  So given that I haven't been following this particular issue all that closely: in what ways does she say they should be treated differently?


She said that the presence of trans women in single-sex spaces makes natal women feel unsafe. So they should be treated as potential predators in her book?

Playing on people's fear to stigmatise groups within a population has never turned out well.
 
2021-03-19 3:14:31 PM  

TheCenturion: Do they deserve to be treated equally?  Or equitably?


Yeah, I recognize the issue.  For those that transition either way when in school and want to play sports, they can feel homeless.

MtF playing in omens sports are likely going to have an advantage over the field.  FtM playing in mens sports are likely going to have a disadvantage.  For FtM, I don't have an issue with Trans competing with biological boys. If they can do good at this sport, more power to them.  It is like the girls that you will find ever so often doing really well in wrestling (at least until many states started separating them as more and more girls want to wrestle).

It is going to be tough to make things equal, but we do need to try to find a way to make it fair for everyone.  Maybe that means starting leagues or teams for transgendered athletes.  I am not saying that it isn't a tricky problem.
 
2021-03-19 3:18:47 PM  

jso2897: A homophobic or transphobic person might no experience fear - only anger and hatred and disgust.
But they're still phobic.


Disgust is a fear based reaction, so I'd say that phobias would fit into that type of base reaction.

Anger and fear generally applies as part of the bigotry angle, not necessarily to any phobia.

my two cents anyway.
 
2021-03-19 3:29:36 PM  

turboke: She said that the presence of trans women in single-sex spaces makes natal women feel unsafe. So they should be treated as potential predators in her book?


Why have single sex spaces at all, if the premise is that women shouldn't be bothered by sharing these spaces?

Yes, that is probably a simplification of your point.  Obviously, there is a grey line in this issue.   Can you trust the vast majority of men that transition?  I'd say yes.

Will there be some men that would love to take advantage of this kind of access for perverted reasons?  Again, I'd say yes.
 
2021-03-19 3:33:04 PM  

HeadLever: TheCenturion: Do they deserve to be treated equally?  Or equitably?

Yeah, I recognize the issue.  For those that transition either way when in school and want to play sports, they can feel homeless.

MtF playing in omens sports are likely going to have an advantage over the field.  FtM playing in mens sports are likely going to have a disadvantage.  For FtM, I don't have an issue with Trans competing with biological boys. If they can do good at this sport, more power to them.  It is like the girls that you will find ever so often doing really well in wrestling (at least until many states started separating them as more and more girls want to wrestle).

It is going to be tough to make things equal, but we do need to try to find a way to make it fair for everyone.  Maybe that means starting leagues or teams for transgendered athletes.  I am not saying that it isn't a tricky problem.


Fair for everyone? Compete in classes based on measured testosterone level. Cis males don't all have the same testosterone levels either. We already differentiate based on individual physical characteristics for weight classes in boxing.
 
2021-03-19 3:43:37 PM  

turboke: Compete in classes based on measured testosterone level.


While that will likely even out some of the playing field, it is not all of it, as I understand it.  Men that have gone through puberty as male and then transition will continue to have the bone structure and tendon strength, though they do lose much of the muscle advantage.
 
2021-03-19 5:06:08 PM  

turboke: TheCenturion: Do they deserve to be treated equally?  Or equitably?  There's a difference.  So given that I haven't been following this particular issue all that closely: in what ways does she say they should be treated differently?

She said that the presence of trans women in single-sex spaces makes natal women feel unsafe. So they should be treated as potential predators in her book?

Playing on people's fear to stigmatise groups within a population has never turned out well.


Men are treated as potential predators simply for existing, so why not?
 
2021-03-19 5:10:10 PM  

006andahalf: TheCenturion: turboke: HeadLever: TheCenturion: Didn't she say "the lived experiences of AFAB people are different than the lived experiences of MTF people?"

Is that controversial?

I can see where that point would have some validity.

Or am I missing something here?

In itself, it's probably as controversial as saying "the skin colour of Sub-Saharan peoples is different from that of Caucasian peoples."

The problem arises when you add "... so they don't deserve to be treated equally."

Do they deserve to be treated equally?  Or equitably?  There's a difference.  So given that I haven't been following this particular issue all that closely: in what ways does she say they should be treated differently?

I mean, I do, in fact, have a problem with the idea that MtF athletes, for example, should be competing directly against AFAB athletes where size and strength come into play; they are not, in fact, equal.  Testosterone is a hell of a growth hormone.

Athletes, athletes, athletes, athletes.  It's 90% of the suppoed concern talking points on the issue, and yet comprises a vanishingly small proportion of those affected.  It's almost as though the point gets raised less out of a genuine concern for the scale and effect of that impact than as a proxy to assault the whole premise of trans people in general.

The feigned concern that such posts demonstrate is both obviously insincere and reminiscent of every paternalistic excuse for establishing some form of supremacy since the beginning of humankind.


It's just the most obvious example.  But yes, there are some who legitimately don't want to see a dick in the women's locker room, even if it's a girl dick. If we can discriminate by sex with women's only gyms, why can't we discriminate by sex in those gyms.
 
2021-03-19 5:21:37 PM  
I read Rowling's statement on her blog. I would love someone to explain what is wrong with it. Seriously- what line do you object to? Asking sincerely.
 
2021-03-19 5:36:45 PM  

TheCenturion: turboke: TheCenturion: Do they deserve to be treated equally?  Or equitably?  There's a difference.  So given that I haven't been following this particular issue all that closely: in what ways does she say they should be treated differently?

She said that the presence of trans women in single-sex spaces makes natal women feel unsafe. So they should be treated as potential predators in her book?

Playing on people's fear to stigmatise groups within a population has never turned out well.

Men are treated as potential predators simply for existing, so why not?


Fark user imageView Full Size


/oblig
 
2021-03-19 6:09:35 PM  

WhippingBoi: TheCenturion: turboke: TheCenturion: Do they deserve to be treated equally?  Or equitably?  There's a difference.  So given that I haven't been following this particular issue all that closely: in what ways does she say they should be treated differently?

She said that the presence of trans women in single-sex spaces makes natal women feel unsafe. So they should be treated as potential predators in her book?

Playing on people's fear to stigmatise groups within a population has never turned out well.

Men are treated as potential predators simply for existing, so why not?

[Fark user image 500x281] [View Full Size image _x_]

/oblig


Why am I not surprised that people are "smarting" this...
 
2021-03-19 6:15:46 PM  

HeadLever: Sure, many trans people are not in sports. That doesn't make the issue go away.


HeadLever: Why have single sex spaces at all, if the premise is that women shouldn't be bothered by sharing these spaces?



There's a solution to both of these issues that is peculiarly never really mentioned. Simply clarify that these are discriminated based off of sex, not gender. A trans male cannot participate in men only sports because they are not male sex. Similarly, a trans woman cannot enter a women's only space because they are not female sex.
 
2021-03-19 6:24:27 PM  

trialpha: HeadLever: Sure, many trans people are not in sports. That doesn't make the issue go away.

HeadLever: Why have single sex spaces at all, if the premise is that women shouldn't be bothered by sharing these spaces?


There's a solution to both of these issues that is peculiarly never really mentioned. Simply clarify that these are discriminated based off of sex, not gender. A trans male cannot participate in men only sports because they are not male sex. Similarly, a trans woman cannot enter a women's only space because they are not female sex.


So, let me get this straight.
I transitioned 20+ years ago. All of my identity documents say "F". I've had bottom surgery so therefore have a vagina.

But you want me to use a men's locker room and men's bathroom?

F*ck that bullshiat right to hell.
 
2021-03-19 6:54:43 PM  

Ker_Thwap: Trik: Both their crimes are not being a part of the hive mind.
Or at least parroting the hive mind gospel.

It's an easy and a pathetic way to dismiss other individuals' thoughts and beliefs, when you just desperately tell yourself that it's hive thinking, that they don't have a stake in the conversation, that their individual opinion is somehow less valuable than your individual opinion.  That they aren't thinking for themselves like, the ever so special, you are.  It's a horribly way to go about your live in blissful ignorance.


Well when they attack like a hive the comparison is very easy.
 
2021-03-19 7:24:09 PM  

Eclectic: So, let me get this straight.
I transitioned 20+ years ago. All of my identity documents say "F". I've had bottom surgery so therefore have a vagina.

But you want me to use a men's locker room and men's bathroom?


For those that have fully transitioned, I don't have an issue with them using the bathrooms/locker rooms, etc. that correspond to gender preference.  That seems to be most fair and least likely to include any harassment.

For those that have not transitioned, this is a bit more tricky for sure.
 
2021-03-19 7:38:54 PM  

Trik: Ker_Thwap: Trik: Both their crimes are not being a part of the hive mind.
Or at least parroting the hive mind gospel.

It's an easy and a pathetic way to dismiss other individuals' thoughts and beliefs, when you just desperately tell yourself that it's hive thinking, that they don't have a stake in the conversation, that their individual opinion is somehow less valuable than your individual opinion.  That they aren't thinking for themselves like, the ever so special, you are.  It's a horribly way to go about your live in blissful ignorance.

Well when they attack like a hive the comparison is very easy.


So many people disparage "hive minds" - but no one admits to being part of one.
Somebody's lying.
 
2021-03-19 7:42:26 PM  

Eclectic: So, let me get this straight.
I transitioned 20+ years ago. All of my identity documents say "F". I've had bottom surgery so therefore have a vagina.

But you want me to use a men's locker room and men's bathroom?

F*ck that bullshiat right to hell.


My examples were specifically men's sports and women-only spaces, not men's locker room / bathrooms.

Men's sports is actually based off of sex, due to physical differences between the sexes, so it makes sense to just clarify that.

Women's only spaces is muddier, and closer to the locker room / bathroom issue. There really shouldn't be any reason for someone who has transitioned to not use the space of the sex/gender they've transitioned to. Most of the concern seems to be about people who don't look the part. ie. trans woman who looks like a man using woman only spaces.
 
2021-03-19 7:43:30 PM  

HeadLever: Eclectic: So, let me get this straight.
I transitioned 20+ years ago. All of my identity documents say "F". I've had bottom surgery so therefore have a vagina.

But you want me to use a men's locker room and men's bathroom?

For those that have fully transitioned, I don't have an issue with them using the bathrooms/locker rooms, etc. that correspond to gender preference.  That seems to be most fair and least likely to include any harassment.

For those that have not transitioned, this is a bit more tricky for sure.


Leaving aside the fact that not every trans person wants, needs, or can afford bottom surgery, the standards of care make everyone who *does* want it live for at least a year as their new gender. And after that there can be a couple that of years on a wait list. Forcing trans women in that situation into men's rooms is putting them at an *astounding* level of risk. It would literally get people killed. And who's going to do the genital checking at the door? There have already been incidents of cisgender women who are *suspected* of being trans have been hassled and it's getting worse.

And lastly, don't forget trans men exist in equal numbers to trans women. If we're going by genitals then Buck Angel and every other trans man who hasn't had a phalloplasty would have to use the women's facilities ;and have the cops called on them every time).

The bathrooms were never an issue back in the dark ages when I transitioned and mostly weren't at all until the GOP lost Obergefell and a new target group was needed.
 
2021-03-19 7:45:19 PM  

Eclectic: HeadLever: Eclectic: So, let me get this straight.
I transitioned 20+ years ago. All of my identity documents say "F". I've had bottom surgery so therefore have a vagina.

But you want me to use a men's locker room and men's bathroom?

For those that have fully transitioned, I don't have an issue with them using the bathrooms/locker rooms, etc. that correspond to gender preference.  That seems to be most fair and least likely to include any harassment.

For those that have not transitioned, this is a bit more tricky for sure.

Leaving aside the fact that not every trans person wants, needs, or can afford bottom surgery, the standards of care make everyone who *does* want it live for at least a year as their new gender. And after that there can be a couple that of years on a wait list. Forcing trans women in that situation into men's rooms is putting them at an *astounding* level of risk. It would literally get people killed. And who's going to do the genital checking at the door? There have already been incidents of cisgender women who are *suspected* of being trans have been hassled and it's getting worse.

And lastly, don't forget trans men exist in equal numbers to trans women. If we're going by genitals then Buck Angel and every other trans man who hasn't had a phalloplasty would have to use the women's facilities ;and have the cops called on them every time).

The bathrooms were never an issue back in the dark ages when I transitioned and mostly weren't at all until the GOP lost Obergefell and a new target group was needed.


You said: "Similarly, a trans woman cannot enter a women's only space because they are not female sex."

Hurt your back moving those goalposts?
 
2021-03-19 7:45:57 PM  

Eclectic: Eclectic: HeadLever: Eclectic: So, let me get this straight.
I transitioned 20+ years ago. All of my identity documents say "F". I've had bottom surgery so therefore have a vagina.

But you want me to use a men's locker room and men's bathroom?

For those that have fully transitioned, I don't have an issue with them using the bathrooms/locker rooms, etc. that correspond to gender preference.  That seems to be most fair and least likely to include any harassment.

For those that have not transitioned, this is a bit more tricky for sure.

Leaving aside the fact that not every trans person wants, needs, or can afford bottom surgery, the standards of care make everyone who *does* want it live for at least a year as their new gender. And after that there can be a couple that of years on a wait list. Forcing trans women in that situation into men's rooms is putting them at an *astounding* level of risk. It would literally get people killed. And who's going to do the genital checking at the door? There have already been incidents of cisgender women who are *suspected* of being trans have been hassled and it's getting worse.

And lastly, don't forget trans men exist in equal numbers to trans women. If we're going by genitals then Buck Angel and every other trans man who hasn't had a phalloplasty would have to use the women's facilities ;and have the cops called on them every time).

The bathrooms were never an issue back in the dark ages when I transitioned and mostly weren't at all until the GOP lost Obergefell and a new target group was needed.

You said: "Similarly, a trans woman cannot enter a women's only space because they are not female sex."

Hurt your back moving those goalposts?


Wait, that wasn't you. Ah well. My bad
 
2021-03-19 8:01:36 PM  

Eclectic: trialpha: HeadLever: Sure, many trans people are not in sports. That doesn't make the issue go away.

HeadLever: Why have single sex spaces at all, if the premise is that women shouldn't be bothered by sharing these spaces?


There's a solution to both of these issues that is peculiarly never really mentioned. Simply clarify that these are discriminated based off of sex, not gender. A trans male cannot participate in men only sports because they are not male sex. Similarly, a trans woman cannot enter a women's only space because they are not female sex.

So, let me get this straight.
I transitioned 20+ years ago. All of my identity documents say "F". I've had bottom surgery so therefore have a vagina.

But you want me to use a men's locker room and men's bathroom?

F*ck that bullshiat right to hell.


I don't care either way, myself.  But who's rights win here?  Your right to use the bathroom of your choice, or AFAB people's right to exclude people based on whatever they want to exclude on?  And if your right wins, then what does that do for other similar discriminations?

I don't have the answers, but I don't think it's wrong to say 'different lived experiences are different.'
 
2021-03-19 8:11:55 PM  

Eclectic: You said: "Similarly, a trans woman cannot enter a women's only space because they are not female sex."

Hurt your back moving those goalposts?

Wait, that wasn't you. Ah well. My bad


That was me, bringing up a "solution" that I find weird that never gets mentioned much, mostly because it's so simple. It's not a full solution, but you'd think it'd get brought up more anyway.

Eclectic: The bathrooms were never an issue back in the dark ages when I transitioned and mostly weren't at all until the GOP lost Obergefell and a new target group was needed.


Bathrooms really shouldn't be an issue; the criteria is basically external appearance. Genitalia don't matter, because those aren't visible, except for urinals which can be avoided.

Locker rooms are the actual problem, because genitals are visible. Somebody with a penis in the women's locker room is going to have a bad time, and somebody with a vagina in the men's locker room is going to have a worse time, regardless of gender.
 
2021-03-19 8:11:59 PM  

TheCenturion: Eclectic: trialpha: HeadLever: Sure, many trans people are not in sports. That doesn't make the issue go away.

HeadLever: Why have single sex spaces at all, if the premise is that women shouldn't be bothered by sharing these spaces?


There's a solution to both of these issues that is peculiarly never really mentioned. Simply clarify that these are discriminated based off of sex, not gender. A trans male cannot participate in men only sports because they are not male sex. Similarly, a trans woman cannot enter a women's only space because they are not female sex.

So, let me get this straight.
I transitioned 20+ years ago. All of my identity documents say "F". I've had bottom surgery so therefore have a vagina.

But you want me to use a men's locker room and men's bathroom?

F*ck that bullshiat right to hell.

I don't care either way, myself.  But who's rights win here?  Your right to use the bathroom of your choice, or AFAB people's right to exclude people based on whatever they want to exclude on?  And if your right wins, then what does that do for other similar discriminations?

I don't have the answers, but I don't think it's wrong to say 'different lived experiences are different.'


After 20+ years, I'm of fighting and fighting and fighting for basic dignity and civil rights while "concerns" like this make my life and those of so many like me a bit worse every day.

So in closing, suck the ghost of my cock and balls.

Cheers!
 
2021-03-19 8:15:42 PM  

trialpha: Eclectic: You said: "Similarly, a trans woman cannot enter a women's only space because they are not female sex."

Hurt your back moving those goalposts?

Wait, that wasn't you. Ah well. My bad

That was me, bringing up a "solution" that I find weird that never gets mentioned much, mostly because it's so simple. It's not a full solution, but you'd think it'd get brought up more anyway.

Eclectic: The bathrooms were never an issue back in the dark ages when I transitioned and mostly weren't at all until the GOP lost Obergefell and a new target group was needed.

Bathrooms really shouldn't be an issue; the criteria is basically external appearance. Genitalia don't matter, because those aren't visible, except for urinals which can be avoided.

Locker rooms are the actual problem, because genitals are visible. Somebody with a penis in the women's locker room is going to have a bad time, and somebody with a vagina in the men's locker room is going to have a worse time, regardless of gender.


You honestly think trans women want to wave their junk around in a locker room and draw that much attention to themselves?
JFC, we know how to change under a towel in these situations, just like every other woman who doesn't want to strip in front of strangers.

So go get bent
 
2021-03-19 8:18:57 PM  

Eclectic: Leaving aside the fact that not every trans person wants, needs, or can afford bottom surgery, the standards of care make everyone who *does* want it live for at least a year as their new gender. And after that there can be a couple that of years on a wait list. Forcing trans women in that situation into men's rooms is putting them at an *astounding* level of risk. It would literally get people killed. And who's going to do the genital checking at the door? There have already been incidents of cisgender women who are *suspected* of being trans have been hassled and it's getting worse.


Valid points

I would tend to think that mens bathrooms are always going to be the problem, no matter which way the transition is going - first of all, women's bathrooms are generally much more private.

Also, the point is not about checking - it is about getting notices and either having the occupants freak the hell out because a perv is in their midst or the danger of getting assaulted.

also, I am not sure that the problem is getting worse per se, but it is more likely that more and more people are making the jump to trans and this increases the likelyhood that they are going to run into one of assholes that truly hates trans people.

there is no doubt that the number of trans people has increased greatly in the past 10 to 15 years.  One other thing that is also increasing is the number of family restrooms that can really help this issue.

Locker rooms are a whole other can of worms.
 
2021-03-19 8:20:08 PM  

Eclectic: Eclectic: HeadLever: Eclectic: So, let me get this straight.
I transitioned 20+ years ago. All of my identity documents say "F". I've had bottom surgery so therefore have a vagina.

But you want me to use a men's locker room and men's bathroom?

For those that have fully transitioned, I don't have an issue with them using the bathrooms/locker rooms, etc. that correspond to gender preference.  That seems to be most fair and least likely to include any harassment.

For those that have not transitioned, this is a bit more tricky for sure.

Leaving aside the fact that not every trans person wants, needs, or can afford bottom surgery, the standards of care make everyone who *does* want it live for at least a year as their new gender. And after that there can be a couple that of years on a wait list. Forcing trans women in that situation into men's rooms is putting them at an *astounding* level of risk. It would literally get people killed. And who's going to do the genital checking at the door? There have already been incidents of cisgender women who are *suspected* of being trans have been hassled and it's getting worse.

And lastly, don't forget trans men exist in equal numbers to trans women. If we're going by genitals then Buck Angel and every other trans man who hasn't had a phalloplasty would have to use the women's facilities ;and have the cops called on them every time).

The bathrooms were never an issue back in the dark ages when I transitioned and mostly weren't at all until the GOP lost Obergefell and a new target group was needed.

You said: "Similarly, a trans woman cannot enter a women's only space because they are not female sex."

Hurt your back moving those goalposts?


Uh, I never said that and I don't believe that.  Not sure where you are getting that from.
 
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