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(CNBC)   Fewer kids are going to college because they say it costs too much. The lack of a stable job market after you leave and 20 years of paying down your loans with your non-skilled work probably doesn't help either   (cnbc.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, High school, high school, College dreams, George Washington University, recent survey of high school students, technical school, University, high school seniors  
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313 clicks; posted to Business » on 15 Mar 2021 at 7:06 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-03-15 5:46:13 PM  
I never had to take out any loans but the job market does kind of suck.
 
2021-03-15 6:18:43 PM  

Mugato: I never had to take out any loans but the job market does kind of suck.


I did.   And then graduated into a recession.
 
2021-03-15 6:28:28 PM  

raerae1980: Mugato: I never had to take out any loans but the job market does kind of suck.

I did.   And then graduated into a recession.


2008 grad here, farked all the ways
 
2021-03-15 6:39:32 PM  
Where is the Obvious tag, too busy working 3 jobs to pay off those loans?
 
2021-03-15 7:10:44 PM  
The complete lack of pedagogy amtters, too. STEM basically tests only rote memorization. For all the lab work, the multiple choice Scantron exams are what matter to greades and progress into a career. In the Humanities, critical thinking and conversation have been sidelined completely, and essays have become diploma mill features instead of ways to develop a public persona dn erpsonal critical thinking skills. WHen teching faculty wre introduced, they became a high octane, low content laborer teaching 6 courses a semester, which makes it impossible to develop any sort of teaching at all.
 
2021-03-15 7:13:34 PM  
Boy, this sure is a shiathole country.
 
2021-03-15 7:18:34 PM  
Good. We have a really unhealthy system. It's a total scam. Burn it down and start over.
 
2021-03-15 7:19:13 PM  
Supply and demand.  It may take a while, but it does work.
 
2021-03-15 7:19:15 PM  
Why can't we be like the cool countries?


/ oh that's right, we 'd have to help the black folks too
 
2021-03-15 7:21:01 PM  
I see the Decline of America is proceeding on the Boomers' schedule.
 
2021-03-15 7:37:33 PM  
I got my BS in business. It got me a job out of college. Then I went back to bartending cause money was better.

Annnnnd now I'm an HVAC tech. So yup. Good 4 years of my life
 
2021-03-15 7:40:09 PM  

raerae1980: Mugato: I never had to take out any loans but the job market does kind of suck.

I did.   And then graduated into a recession.


I graduated in 2002 when entry level jobs required 3-5 years of prior experience because companies had laid a ton of people off. I've never been able to directly apply my college degree in Industrial Design, and all the jobs I've had technically didn't even require a degree.  I will say that college helped me be able to advance quickly once I got a few years under my belt, but trade school would have been a better initial springboard given I went into specialty metal fabrication ( crap pay to make cool stuff ) and now trapped in construction project management purgatory. I'm just glad I had the privilege to escape student debt, can't imagine trying to pay student loans making $10 - $15 an hour. I got kicked in the nuts again during the 2008 recession and took a big step back. Lost my job at the end of 2020, but at least this time I picked up something up quickly that pays better, though I have to move to Dayton, OH (bleh).
 
2021-03-15 7:48:25 PM  
If one of my kids wanted to go to trade school I'd encourage them to do so, but probably want them to also get an associates degree in business or accounting. I know I don't want to be pushing 55-60 and still having to toil outside to make money.  Do the grunt work while young, learn the trade well, then have the wherewithal to start your own business. Most of the people I've worked for were good at what they did but had to learn to run a business instead of pursuing their passion once they took on employees.
 
2021-03-15 7:49:43 PM  

On-Farkin-On: If one of my kids wanted to go to trade school I'd encourage them to do so, but probably want them to also get an associates degree in business or accounting. I know I don't want to be pushing 55-60 and still having to toil outside to make money.  Do the grunt work while young, learn the trade well, then have the wherewithal to start your own business. Most of the people I've worked for were good at what they did but had to learn to run a business instead of pursuing their passion once they took on employees.


Oooh i got the degree first and the trade knowledge later!

/going for my journeymans soon
 
2021-03-15 7:54:08 PM  
The trades needs workers; plumbers, electricians, carpenters, a lot of them.

PBS News has been running a series of stories about there aren't enough skilled workers. Some of these who are experienced can pull down 6 figures a year.
 
2021-03-15 8:03:17 PM  
i find becoming an "industry" is the beginning of an end to a great many things.
 
2021-03-15 8:13:33 PM  

Axeofjudgement: On-Farkin-On: If one of my kids wanted to go to trade school I'd encourage them to do so, but probably want them to also get an associates degree in business or accounting. I know I don't want to be pushing 55-60 and still having to toil outside to make money.  Do the grunt work while young, learn the trade well, then have the wherewithal to start your own business. Most of the people I've worked for were good at what they did but had to learn to run a business instead of pursuing their passion once they took on employees.

Oooh i got the degree first and the trade knowledge later!

/going for my journeymans soon


I had toyed with the idea of getting a welding certification shortly after college, it would have been a wiser move in hindsight, but life intervened a few times too many. In a decent spot now, just far away from what I want to do. Young kids means self-betterment is on the backburner. Planned on getting my PMP while on the dole, but landed something that allowed us to move to where my wife's family lives. I instead get to spend my "free" time frantically fixing up our house to sell.  College was fun as hell, but also challenging, I'm thankful I got the experience without having to pay on the back end for decades. My biggest downfall was hoping, and being encouraged, to be creative for a career path. I will squash my children's ambitions that work can be fun to prepare them for their likely reality as cogs in the greater machine.

/should have done mechanical or electrical engineering undergrad, THEN industrial design graduate
//bailed on architecture for ID
///now firmly cemented in the role of architect's biatch as a subcontractor project manager
 
2021-03-15 8:32:41 PM  

Bennie Crabtree: STEM basically tests only rote memorization.


Stopped reading there...
 
2021-03-15 8:32:49 PM  
I left college with the bedrock of a solid writing career and got into web design to make myself more marketable. Big fail on my part. I was able to subsist but never thrive. I wish someone had told me that commercial HVAC or building controls was so much fun. I'd be divorced several times by now.
 
2021-03-15 8:35:31 PM  

On-Farkin-On: If one of my kids wanted to go to trade school I'd encourage them to do so, but probably want them to also get an associates degree in business or accounting. I know I don't want to be pushing 55-60 and still having to toil outside to make money.  Do the grunt work while young, learn the trade well, then have the wherewithal to start your own business. Most of the people I've worked for were good at what they did but had to learn to run a business instead of pursuing their passion once they took on employees.


I have mixed feelings. So many careers are setup in a way that kinda sorta punishes you (directly or indirectly) for not committing early and staying.

Lots of Union type jobs are like that, with pay schedules and all that jazz. You get kinda screwed in the beginning, but the reward is at the end.

On the other end, you have jobs like accountants, lawyers, doctors, where you rack up a ton of debt and go through a ton of crap. If you get 40-50 years of work from it, it's not so bad. Paying the same money to get 20-25 makes a lot less sense, and usually you are cutting out the highest paid years.
 
2021-03-15 8:39:04 PM  
Is that why I'm getting recruiters begging me to commute 2 hours for a job that barely pays above min wage? Cause they can't find any recent grads to exploit with the promise of being an executive material handler if they work the next 5 years without a raise?

Yeah, we're boned when companies realize you can't teach that drug addicted semi literate dropoit who never shows up to work on time how to write code and suddenly there is a massive worker shortage which will drive companies to beg for more H1B Visas.
 
2021-03-15 8:42:22 PM  
Only college I've ever needed:

i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2021-03-15 8:43:45 PM  
FTFA: (The government will send another $40 billion in aid to the nation's colleges and universities after President Joe Biden signed the $1.9 trillion coronavirus relief bill Friday.)

I'm sure that money will be put to good use financing another building to pump out more MBAs instead of reducing tuitions.
 
2021-03-15 8:49:22 PM  
Well, that certainly won't backfire on them.
 
2021-03-15 8:50:31 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: On-Farkin-On: If one of my kids wanted to go to trade school I'd encourage them to do so, but probably want them to also get an associates degree in business or accounting. I know I don't want to be pushing 55-60 and still having to toil outside to make money.  Do the grunt work while young, learn the trade well, then have the wherewithal to start your own business. Most of the people I've worked for were good at what they did but had to learn to run a business instead of pursuing their passion once they took on employees.

I have mixed feelings. So many careers are setup in a way that kinda sorta punishes you (directly or indirectly) for not committing early and staying.

Lots of Union type jobs are like that, with pay schedules and all that jazz. You get kinda screwed in the beginning, but the reward is at the end.

On the other end, you have jobs like accountants, lawyers, doctors, where you rack up a ton of debt and go through a ton of crap. If you get 40-50 years of work from it, it's not so bad. Paying the same money to get 20-25 makes a lot less sense, and usually you are cutting out the highest paid years.


It seems like the way things have devolved these days is that most of the private sector rewards you for jumping around for the first few years chasing the next pay bump instead of expecting a series of moderate raises to retain people. I get that having a ton of jobs in a short timeframe doesn't look good, but recruiters and contract employment have created a new environment where job/project hopping isn't as frowned upon as it used to be. That said you probably have to be willing/able to be nomadic during those years. Construction is already sort of nomadic depending on your role, it'd be better if I relocated to where the work is booming even in an office situated role.
 
2021-03-15 9:09:09 PM  
Your kid wasnt going to work at NASA anyways.
 
2021-03-15 9:12:16 PM  

My Second Fark Account: Bennie Crabtree: STEM basically tests only rote memorization.

Stopped reading there...


In a lot of places, I'd say that is completely accurate. Including the universities I went to.

I've got a masters and bachelors in CS and almost all of it could be done with memorization and brute force.

Having said that, I went to fairly low ranked state schools.
 
2021-03-15 9:14:18 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: My Second Fark Account: Bennie Crabtree: STEM basically tests only rote memorization.

Stopped reading there...

In a lot of places, I'd say that is completely accurate. Including the universities I went to.

I've got a masters and bachelors in CS and almost all of it could be done with memorization and brute force.

Having said that, I went to fairly low ranked state schools.


Account here. I could teach a monkey my job in a week.
 
2021-03-15 9:15:19 PM  
 
2021-03-15 9:17:08 PM  

GodComplex: Is that why I'm getting recruiters begging me to commute 2 hours for a job that barely pays above min wage? Cause they can't find any recent grads to exploit with the promise of being an executive material handler if they work the next 5 years without a raise?

Yeah, we're boned when companies realize you can't teach that drug addicted semi literate dropoit who never shows up to work on time how to write code and suddenly there is a massive worker shortage which will drive companies to beg for more H1B Visas.


I mean... There is no shortage of talented, smart, educated people who will line up to take those H1B Visas, but now that the US team is remote, they won't even have to bother with it. Just open an office a low cost of living country, hire a team their for a fraction of the cost, have everyone work from home and ... woohoo cheap office labor without any of the US immigration headaches.
 
2021-03-15 9:17:40 PM  

Bennie Crabtree: The complete lack of pedagogy amtters, too. STEM basically tests only rote memorization. For all the lab work, the multiple choice Scantron exams are what matter to greades and progress into a career.


During my entire time in college, I don't think I had a single scantron exam for an actual computer science class.
 
2021-03-15 9:19:29 PM  

Closed_Minded_Bastage: The trades needs workers; plumbers, electricians, carpenters, a lot of them.

PBS News has been running a series of stories about there aren't enough skilled workers. Some of these who are experienced can pull down 6 figures a year.


Around my Boston suburb, the big homes, power boats, and luxury cars either belong to retirement fund managers or master tradesmen.
 
2021-03-15 9:30:41 PM  

BMFPitt: Bennie Crabtree: The complete lack of pedagogy amtters, too. STEM basically tests only rote memorization. For all the lab work, the multiple choice Scantron exams are what matter to greades and progress into a career.

During my entire time in college, I don't think I had a single scantron exam for an actual computer science class.


I didn't have scantrons, but ours were all paper and pencil. Almost always a lot of multiple choice, a few essay type q's, and then a few "show your work"/"write fake code" ones.

In fairness, most of my job is just memorizing things. And while I hate to admit it, my years of college, especially my masters really help very little. If you took 18 year-old me, had me do a boot camp for a year, he would probably do just as good as I do now.

Maybe that means I was awesome for an 18 year old, or that I suck now... But it is true.
 
2021-03-15 9:34:48 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: My Second Fark Account: Bennie Crabtree: STEM basically tests only rote memorization.

Stopped reading there...

In a lot of places, I'd say that is completely accurate. Including the universities I went to.

I've got a masters and bachelors in CS and almost all of it could be done with memorization and brute force.

Having said that, I went to fairly low ranked state schools.


I had a very different experience in a mid-level state school 20 years ago. Most of my STEM classes allowed for "cheat sheets" of formulae or open-book test formats specifically to avoid rote memorization. Much of the class time was spent on derivation of a formula or application/process (at least once you got beyond the intro-level class work).

Then I graduated, got a job as an "engineer" and my employer had me crank out repetitive bullshiat that really didn't require any special training, but they liked hiring engineers and were willing to pay competitive salaries, so who was I to judge?

/Should have been more judgmental, this crap is soul-sucking
 
2021-03-15 9:37:38 PM  

Closed_Minded_Bastage: The trades needs workers; plumbers, electricians, carpenters, a lot of them.

PBS News has been running a series of stories about there aren't enough skilled workers. Some of these who are experienced can pull down 6 figures a year.


Those same stories have the actual figures, which is that the average wage for the trades is still below the average wage for a bachelor's degree. Clearly they desperately need electricians and plumbers if they're paying such a premium.

That and the average career length is shorter (because the jobs are more physically demanding).

The trades will get you middle class. If you are a journeyman you **might** crack 6 figures, but that takes at least 4 years in Washington state at least, and usually takes more. That's not bad overall, certainty the only shadow of a middle class existence I ever had was doing trade work, and if you like it the time it takes to make journeyman is no biggie.

Thing is, the trades are not for everyone. You have to want to do it. You have to be willing to do the overtime and chase the jobs that will get you ahead, just like any other job. If you're only in it for the money you need to work the hardest jobs, in the most dangerous conditions, for the longest hours. Or you have to do it a long time and open your own business.

If they really, really want a lot of tradespeople, they need to hire apprentices (most of them are looking for journeymen), and they need to pay a real premium.
 
2021-03-15 9:39:09 PM  

AsparagusFTW: Your kid wasnt going to work at NASA anyways.


You don't want to work for NASA. Worst professional job I ever had.
 
2021-03-15 10:22:12 PM  

Closed_Minded_Bastage: The trades needs workers; plumbers, electricians, carpenters, a lot of them.

PBS News has been running a series of stories about there aren't enough skilled workers. Some of these who are experienced can pull down 6 figures a year.


Market matters. I remember the IT grad boom following the 08 recession and everyone complain about the 35k/yr starting pay. Supply and demand.

Hell, my electricians at my job only clear 50K on the back of working weekends. Otherwise, you sit around 38-40. Union jobs pay more, obviously, but unions have been neutered in WI.

But yes, everyone should be an underwater welder. Not dangerous or hard at all. E Z money. Salary does not vary by location.
 
2021-03-15 10:23:54 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: Closed_Minded_Bastage: The trades needs workers; plumbers, electricians, carpenters, a lot of them.

PBS News has been running a series of stories about there aren't enough skilled workers. Some of these who are experienced can pull down 6 figures a year.

Market matters. I remember the IT grad boom following the 08 recession and everyone complain about the 35k/yr starting pay. Supply and demand.

Hell, my electricians at my job only clear 50K on the back of working weekends. Otherwise, you sit around 38-40. Union jobs pay more, obviously, but unions have been neutered in WI.

But yes, everyone should be an underwater welder. Not dangerous or hard at all. E Z money. Salary does not vary by location.


Try launching an underwater welding shop just outside of Tuscon, not a lot of competition
 
2021-03-15 11:21:41 PM  
My business degree eventually got me a fairly nice office job, but I'll be damned if I use any of the shiat I learned. Thankfully I was given a full scholarship, so it only cost me four years of my life instead of four years of my life plus tens of thousands of dollars to learn what turned out to be absolutely nothing of value.

The system is clearly broken.
 
2021-03-16 1:29:38 AM  
Worked as an electrician for two years, as an apprentice went to school clocked hours towards my journeyman status. Screwed my back up couldn't work anymore. There's a reason why people don't want to do trades, unless you can take the physical demand they suck.
 
2021-03-16 1:30:05 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: GodComplex: Is that why I'm getting recruiters begging me to commute 2 hours for a job that barely pays above min wage? Cause they can't find any recent grads to exploit with the promise of being an executive material handler if they work the next 5 years without a raise?

Yeah, we're boned when companies realize you can't teach that drug addicted semi literate dropoit who never shows up to work on time how to write code and suddenly there is a massive worker shortage which will drive companies to beg for more H1B Visas.

I mean... There is no shortage of talented, smart, educated people who will line up to take those H1B Visas, but now that the US team is remote, they won't even have to bother with it. Just open an office a low cost of living country, hire a team their for a fraction of the cost, have everyone work from home and ... woohoo cheap office labor without any of the US immigration headaches.


Already facing this.

Meetings where management literally asks why they shouldn't fire the entire US based backend development team and expand the offshore UI team because the offshore UI team is underutilized.

First, they do different things. We've been trying for 6 god damned years to hire ANYBODY in India or China that will work with our backend stack and never had so much as an applicant (it's not that they don't exist, it's that it isn't the local diploma mill stack so we can't pay offshore diploma mill rates and real professionals cost actual money even in low cost areas).

Second, go fark yourselves I'm out.
 
2021-03-16 2:18:47 AM  
Took the First GIS class offered at my college in 1995. Got a state gig doing GIS with Arcview 3.2a in 1997. Now im a senior GIS analyst, with 25 years in, bear retirement. I have never used my Forest Silvics BS and MS. One freaking bit.

Taught myself how to code, Adobe Creative Suite, web junk, app creation, and server wizardy.
/ I have used punch cards up to smart ID
//More interested in leather work and welding
///Damn kids..get off my server
 
2021-03-16 2:25:47 AM  

AsparagusFTW: Your kid wasnt going to work at NASA anyways.


Phew!
 
2021-03-16 3:02:59 AM  
Kids and oldies alike should check out the University of the People.

Bachelor's and/or Master's degrees cost between USD $2,000 - 3,000 with all course materials provided for free, with a pay-as-you-go fee schedule.  (And you can get a scholarship if you demonstrate financial need.)

Credits can be transferred in and out (albeit the latter case not without some resistance).

U.S. Department of Education certified, and is applying for a regional (California/Hawaii) accreditation as well.
 
2021-03-16 4:17:06 AM  

Mugato: I never had to take out any loans but the job market does kind of suck.


Found the boomer in one
 
2021-03-16 7:25:56 AM  

ImmutableTenderloin: Worked as an electrician for two years, as an apprentice went to school clocked hours towards my journeyman status. Screwed my back up couldn't work anymore. There's a reason why people don't want to do trades, unless you can take the physical demand they suck.


I doubt the majority of American workers would want to or be able to get up at 5:30Aam in the winter to install flood lights on the outside of a warehouse in the winter or haul sheetrock up stairs all day.
Neither can the majority code for 16 hours a day.
And yes, the push for most kids to go to college is absurd, as are higher ed tuition and fees.  Businesses seek out foreign labor because their countries value education and they don't have unforgivable jumbo loans pushing them to ask for more in wages.
 
2021-03-16 7:28:15 AM  

On-Farkin-On: If one of my kids wanted to go to trade school I'd encourage them to do so, but probably want them to also get an associates degree in business or accounting. I know I don't want to be pushing 55-60 and still having to toil outside to make money.  Do the grunt work while young, learn the trade well, then have the wherewithal to start your own business. Most of the people I've worked for were good at what they did but had to learn to run a business instead of pursuing their passion once they took on employees.


After wasting 5 years getting a Political Science degree I went back for an Associate's degree in Accounting.  Has worked out well for me.

Wish I had just done that straight out of high school.  Oh well, college was a lot of fun so I guess I shouldn't complain.
 
2021-03-16 7:32:27 AM  

germ78: FTFA: (The government will send another $40 billion in aid to the nation's colleges and universities after President Joe Biden signed the $1.9 trillion coronavirus relief bill Friday.)

I'm sure that money will be put to good use financing another building to pump out more MBAs instead of reducing tuitions.


I worked for a large public research university and at the end of every fiscal year it was never "we have extra money, let's give it back".

You spent every last penny so you could ask for the same/more next year.  That part always annoyed me.

/lame story bro
 
2021-03-16 7:40:00 AM  

Weng: Fark_Guy_Rob: GodComplex: Is that why I'm getting recruiters begging me to commute 2 hours for a job that barely pays above min wage? Cause they can't find any recent grads to exploit with the promise of being an executive material handler if they work the next 5 years without a raise?

Yeah, we're boned when companies realize you can't teach that drug addicted semi literate dropoit who never shows up to work on time how to write code and suddenly there is a massive worker shortage which will drive companies to beg for more H1B Visas.

I mean... There is no shortage of talented, smart, educated people who will line up to take those H1B Visas, but now that the US team is remote, they won't even have to bother with it. Just open an office a low cost of living country, hire a team their for a fraction of the cost, have everyone work from home and ... woohoo cheap office labor without any of the US immigration headaches.

Already facing this.

Meetings where management literally asks why they shouldn't fire the entire US based backend development team and expand the offshore UI team because the offshore UI team is underutilized.

First, they do different things. We've been trying for 6 god damned years to hire ANYBODY in India or China that will work with our backend stack and never had so much as an applicant (it's not that they don't exist, it's that it isn't the local diploma mill stack so we can't pay offshore diploma mill rates and real professionals cost actual money even in low cost areas).

Second, go fark yourselves I'm out.


Hah,
At my last job we had a few Chinese PhDs.  One of them told me that skilled labor in China and India was already at par with declining US wages.  My college RM works for a major chip manufacturer and said the same thing, management was actually in the process of firing the entire US staff when they found out, and decided to keep the operations since there was no money in it.
So off-shoring had the intended effect, as designed.
And when you see companies biatching about China demanding IP sharing, just laugh.  They happily signed away their patents, trade secrets, and know-how if it meant saving a few dollars by firing US workers and destroying US towns by moving to China.
They can DIAF.
 
2021-03-16 10:18:59 AM  

On-Farkin-On: I had toyed with the idea of getting a welding certification shortly after college, it would have been a wiser move in hindsight, but life intervened a few times too many. In a decent spot now, just far away from what I want to do. Young kids means self-betterment is on the backburner. Planned on getting my PMP while on the dole, but landed something that allowed us to move to where my wife's family lives. I instead get to spend my "free" time frantically fixing up our house to sell.  College was fun as hell, but also challenging, I'm thankful I got the experience without having to pay on the back end for decades. My biggest downfall was hoping, and being encouraged, to be creative for a career path. I will squash my children's ambitions that work can be fun to prepare them for their likely reality as cogs in the greater machine.

/should have done mechanical or electrical engineering undergrad, THEN industrial design graduate
//bailed on architecture for ID
///now firmly cemented in the role of architect's biatch as a subcontractor project manager


CSB: I did my ID degree, quickly decided it wasn't for me, then went back to school for architecture. Graduated 10 years ago, right into the recession. Good times.
 
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