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(Today I Found Out)   During WWII Germany tested the only rocket-powered combat plane ever built: The Me-163 Komet, fueled with concentrated hydrogen peroxide, hydrazine and methanol. Pros: It was insanely fast. Cons: Fuel leaks that dissolved pilots like cotton candy   (todayifoundout.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Rocket, Messerschmitt Me 163, Aircraft, Rocket-powered aircraft, Messerschmitt Me-163 Komet, Heinkel He 176, American pilots, lives of more German pilots  
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2050 clicks; posted to STEM » on 12 Mar 2021 at 11:35 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-03-12 11:40:04 AM  
Hydrazine is one awful substance:

"Hydrazines (1,2-dimethylhydrazine; 1,1-dimethylhydrazine; hydrazine) are extremely toxic nitrogen compounds that are colorless and have an ammonia or fish-like odor. Hydrazine is used in many industries including petroleum refining, photographic processing, semiconductor manufacturing, soldering, and weapons manufacturing. Hydrazines are also a component of rocket fuel and, in addition, can be found in certain medications, including hydralazine, isoniazid, and phenelzine. Gyromitra spp. mushrooms contain the toxin gyromitrin, which is metabolized to monomethylhydrazine. Hydrazines are sometimes found at hazardous waste sites. Hydrazine exposure may occur via aerosol inhalation, liquid ingestion, or dermal absorption. The consequences of exposure are severe and may include death.

Aerosol exposure and inhalation include irritation of the eyes, nose, throat and skin, dyspnea, dizziness, and nausea. Direct contact with the liquid form can produce chemical burns of the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes.

After inhalation or absorption of large quantities of hydrazine, there may be lethargy, confusion, tremors, seizures, coma, and death. Delayed findings may include hepatitis, nephritis, pulmonary edema, liver necrosis, and GI hemorrhage. Seizures may also occur after prolonged exposure. Severe renal damage, possibly secondary to hemolysis, may occur. Kidney damage is usually less severe than hepatic effects.

The Immediately Danger to Health or Life (IDHL) air concentration of hydrazine is 50 ppm. The National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) considers hydrazine a potential carcinogen."

Source
 
2021-03-12 11:43:18 AM  
I'm still upset that XCOR didn't build one with a modern rocket engine:

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163​/​xcor.htm

A guy in Germany build a glider version, though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNIpJ​c​OZPlA (YouTube doesn't allow embedding)

Apparently the builder was an Me-163B pilot in training at the end of WWII but never made any actual powered flights.   So he built himself a glider version.

It's a small enough aircraft that the airframe can be relatively easily built by an aircraft homebuilder, and you could probably substitute a small jet engine instead of a rocket engine, and fit it with retractable gear (the original used a jettisonable dolly and skid for landing).

You could probably even make it with a conventional piston engine behind the pilot and a pusher prop.   It wouldn't have the performance of the original (neither would a jet version), but it would still be cool to drop into the local airport for a $100 hamburger flying something like that.
 
2021-03-12 11:47:46 AM  

Sanguine Dawn: Hydrazine is one awful substance:


Except the hydrazine wasn't the problem.   It was mixed with methanol and water:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Stoff​

The real problem is that the oxidizer was 80% hydrogen peroxide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Stoff​

It was the T-Stoff that would melt human skin on contact and react violently with organic materials, and it's why the ground crews and pilots had to wear rubber suits.
 
2021-03-12 12:00:01 PM  

dittybopper: Sanguine Dawn: Hydrazine is one awful substance:

Except the hydrazine wasn't the problem.   It was mixed with methanol and water:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Stoff

The real problem is that the oxidizer was 80% hydrogen peroxide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Stoff

It was the T-Stoff that would melt human skin on contact and react violently with organic materials, and it's why the ground crews and pilots had to wear rubber suits.


Yeah, still doesn't change that hydrazine is nasty stuff. All the other components you describe don't linger in the environment or fatally poison people with a vanishingly small amount. The majority of the energy for all these reactions is stored in the hydrazine and its potential is unlocked by the peroxide as a potent oxidizer. Hydrazine is still awful stuff the Nazis had just found a way to use it a dangerous and slipshod manner.
 
2021-03-12 12:07:09 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


Nothing wrong with melting Nazis.
 
2021-03-12 12:16:23 PM  
Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!
 
2021-03-12 12:19:23 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!


Just came here to question that.   Mach 1 is 767  MPH   and the article is claiming these planes were doing Mach 1.5 long before Yeager's famous flight?   And no mention of a "sonic boom"?
 
2021-03-12 12:39:23 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-03-12 12:41:06 PM  

Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!

Just came here to question that.   Mach 1 is 767  MPH   and the article is claiming these planes were doing Mach 1.5 long before Yeager's famous flight?   And no mention of a "sonic boom"?



Thanks to both of you, I no longer have to comment in this thread.
 
2021-03-12 12:46:40 PM  
Wikipedia has a decent entry on the 163. As a kid, I always assumed that it failed in the usual Third Reich way: too little, too late. It was flying pretty early, actually; it just never got terribly effective or practical and was abandoned.
 
2021-03-12 12:53:22 PM  

Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!

Just came here to question that.   Mach 1 is 767  MPH   and the article is claiming these planes were doing Mach 1.5 long before Yeager's famous flight?   And no mention of a "sonic boom"?


Yeah, it hit 1130 KPH during testing.  Still awful damn fast for that era of aeronautical engineering, but not no Mach 1.5.
 
2021-03-12 12:59:39 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!

Just came here to question that.   Mach 1 is 767  MPH   and the article is claiming these planes were doing Mach 1.5 long before Yeager's famous flight?   And no mention of a "sonic boom"?

Yeah, it hit 1130 KPH during testing.  Still awful damn fast for that era of aeronautical engineering, but not no Mach 1.5.


The German war machine desperately needed a Jeff Goldblum  "You are so busy figuring out if you could, you never stopped to ask if you SHOULD"   too many of their designs were engineering marvels that were utterly impractical in service
 
2021-03-12 1:10:56 PM  

Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!

Just came here to question that.   Mach 1 is 767  MPH   and the article is claiming these planes were doing Mach 1.5 long before Yeager's famous flight?   And no mention of a "sonic boom"?

Yeah, it hit 1130 KPH during testing.  Still awful damn fast for that era of aeronautical engineering, but not no Mach 1.5.

The German war machine desperately needed a Jeff Goldblum  "You are so busy figuring out if you could, you never stopped to ask if you SHOULD"   too many of their designs were engineering marvels that were utterly impractical in service


Call me a traditionalist, but personally, I'm in favor of not interrupting the Nazis when they're making a mistake.

Go back in time and kill Hitler?  Fark, NO!  They might get someone competent...

(That jackass was the best secret weapon the Allies had.)
 
2021-03-12 1:13:41 PM  

Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!

Just came here to question that.   Mach 1 is 767  MPH   and the article is claiming these planes were doing Mach 1.5 long before Yeager's famous flight?   And no mention of a "sonic boom"?


Sounds like it is supposed to be in KPH, the article has the wrong units.
 
2021-03-12 1:19:05 PM  

dittybopper: The real problem is that the oxidizer was 80% hydrogen peroxide:


Also the problem with Soviet/Russian torpedoes.  A leak of peroxide would react with compounds inside the torpedo, producing heat, etc.  It's pretty much given that a peroxide leak in a torpedo started the chain reaction that sunk the Kursk.

Leak produce heat, this ruptured the torpedo, exposing peroxide to fuel, resulting in fire.  The fire detonated a torpedo warhead, rupturing the pressure hull.  Inflow of water stopped the fires and explosions, but put the sub on the bottom.

When recovered, sailors in the reactor areas had fractures to their arms and legs, caused by the shockwave of the torpedo warhead going off.  Only those folks aft of the reactor compartment survived, but eventually died when rescue attempts failed and a compartment fire ate up the oxygen.
 
2021-03-12 1:35:48 PM  

Sanguine Dawn: dittybopper: Sanguine Dawn: Hydrazine is one awful substance:

Except the hydrazine wasn't the problem.   It was mixed with methanol and water:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Stoff

The real problem is that the oxidizer was 80% hydrogen peroxide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Stoff

It was the T-Stoff that would melt human skin on contact and react violently with organic materials, and it's why the ground crews and pilots had to wear rubber suits.

Yeah, still doesn't change that hydrazine is nasty stuff. All the other components you describe don't linger in the environment or fatally poison people with a vanishingly small amount. The majority of the energy for all these reactions is stored in the hydrazine and its potential is unlocked by the peroxide as a potent oxidizer. Hydrazine is still awful stuff the Nazis had just found a way to use it a dangerous and slipshod manner.


High-test peroxide is horribly aggressive and will kill you right farking now.  Hydrazine is a sneaky bastard and will kill you tomorrow, or next week, or next decade.  But they both really, really want to kill you.

When you're building a rocket and choose propellants that are both unstable enough to use as monopropellants, you might be farking nuts.  When you put a human within a hundred yards of that rocket, you're absolutely farking nuts.  When you put a human in that rocket, you've gone clear through insanity and are actively working for the enemy.  So, uh, thanks I guess.
 
2021-03-12 1:43:27 PM  
It is funny that people think hydrogen peroxide is not dangerous, until you tell them that stuff in your medicine cabinet is 1% peroxide, 99% water.  If it were pure peroxide, you wouldn't have a finger left with a cut on it.
 
2021-03-12 1:44:38 PM  

aaronx: Wikipedia has a decent entry on the 163. As a kid, I always assumed that it failed in the usual Third Reich way: too little, too late. It was flying pretty early, actually; it just never got terribly effective or practical and was abandoned.


The failure of the Third Reich was due in large part to Hitler's insistence on the "Vengeance" weapons, V-1 "buzz bomb", V-2 rocket, and V-3 super cannon.  6,725 V-1 rockets fired at England & London, causing 5,475 deaths, with 16,000 injured, but at a cost of around $2,500-5,000 each in 1944 USD.  They built 6,050 V-2 rockets at a cost of about $40K each in 1944 USD.  The "Super Cannon" was constructed, but destroyed shortly before it became operational.  By comparison, a Bf-109 fighter cost around $20K in 1944 USD.

Basically, Germany spent about twice as much for all of the "V" weapons as the US did for the atom bombs.

All told, around 14,000 Allied soldiers and civilians were killed, mostly civilian.  Effects on military effectiveness were minimal, even non-existent.

Add in the cost of the Atlantic Wall (which became useless once the Allies got past it), and you have a large percentage of the war budget, war materiel, and personnel working on projects that had almost no impact on the war.

Well, maybe one significant impact: Hitler chose to target civilians with "total war", so it's no surprise the US would retaliate with its own version of "total war".  Our version was far more successful.
 
2021-03-12 1:52:44 PM  
Plane killed more axis pilots than allies
 
2021-03-12 1:56:11 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!


There was a rumor that a modified ME-163B broke the sound barrier during the war, and it did in fact hit an impressive speed (~700 MPH IAS).  It's not clear if the altitude was high enough, but the rudder was essentially shredded from the flutter.   The pilot (Heini Dittmar) managed to land the plane.

I remember seeing a picture of it in a book, but teh googles and teh bings are failing me.
 
2021-03-12 2:03:46 PM  

dittybopper: It was the T-Stoff that would melt human skin on contact and react violently with organic materials, and it's why the ground crews and pilots had to wear rubber suits.


Didn't help this poor bastard FTFA:

On other occasions pilots suffered a fate worse than an explosion, as in the case of Oberleutnant Josef Pohs, who on one flight released his takeoff dolly too early. The dolly bounced off the ground and struck the aircraft, rupturing a T-Stoff line. Pohs immediately jettisoned his fuel and banked around to make an emergency landing, but just like Alois Worndl missed the runway, touched down on rough ground, and flipped over. To the relief of his watching comrades his aircraft did not explode, but when they finally reached him and turned the Komet over they were greeted with a gruesome sight: T-Stoff leaking from the ruptured line had dissolved the unconscious Pohs alive.
 
2021-03-12 2:08:26 PM  

dittybopper: Sanguine Dawn: Hydrazine is one awful substance:

Except the hydrazine wasn't the problem.   It was mixed with methanol and water:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Stoff

The real problem is that the oxidizer was 80% hydrogen peroxide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Stoff

It was the T-Stoff that would melt human skin on contact and react violently with organic materials, and it's why the ground crews and pilots had to wear rubber suits.


I saw a documentary awhile back about these guys who built 200mph go-carts powered by hydrogen peroxide.

IIRC the engine was a combustion chamber in which 90% peroxide was squirted on a screen made of something it reacted with (silver?). I remember thinking that was pretty cool; I had no idea peroxide was so dangerous. I'd rather play with xenomorph blood.
 
2021-03-12 2:09:24 PM  

indy_kid: The failure of the Third Reich was due in large part to Hitler's insistence on the "Vengeance" weapons


That really had nothing to do with that.

It had everything to do with the United States entering the war on the side of the Allies.

In 1942, the first full year that the US was involved in WWII, US GDP was 1,259 billion dollars.   The rest of the major combatants, Axis and Allied *COMBINED*, only totaled about 2,839 billion in GDP.

So the US, by itself and before it was fully ramped up, made up about 31% of the combined GDP.  It would peak around 40%, IIRC.

Fact of the matter is that the only way the Axis could have won WWII is to simply keep the US out of the war.

It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler/Mussolini/Tojo had done everything right, they were going to lose the war of logistics.
 
2021-03-12 2:12:18 PM  

Sensei Can You See: dittybopper: It was the T-Stoff that would melt human skin on contact and react violently with organic materials, and it's why the ground crews and pilots had to wear rubber suits.

Didn't help this poor bastard FTFA:

On other occasions pilots suffered a fate worse than an explosion, as in the case of Oberleutnant Josef Pohs, who on one flight released his takeoff dolly too early. The dolly bounced off the ground and struck the aircraft, rupturing a T-Stoff line. Pohs immediately jettisoned his fuel and banked around to make an emergency landing, but just like Alois Worndl missed the runway, touched down on rough ground, and flipped over. To the relief of his watching comrades his aircraft did not explode, but when they finally reached him and turned the Komet over they were greeted with a gruesome sight: T-Stoff leaking from the ruptured line had dissolved the unconscious Pohs alive.


Yep.

It wasn't perfect.

BTW, I watched this farkin' video back in October.

The German Rocket Fighter that Dissolved its Pilots Alive
Youtube qfAw4YvI_u0


And somewhere down on my bookshelf, I've got this book:

images-na.ssl-images-amazon.comView Full Size
 
2021-03-12 2:30:30 PM  

Sensei Can You See: I saw a documentary awhile back about these guys who built 200mph go-carts powered by hydrogen peroxide.


Here it is. Apparently this maniac's go-cart did 5-second quarter mile runs at 240mph. Video goodness at the bottom. Can you imagine 5-second quarter-miles just sitting in this thing with no protection and your ass 2 inches off the track?

The only advantage the helmet would provide is you'd be able to have an open-casket funeral. He does 4.7 at 315mph in the video.

speednik.comView Full Size


In a nutshell, hydrogen-peroxide engines made their incredible power very simply: Nearly pure hydrogen peroxide was fed through a nickel-silver catalyst screen that caused the fuel mix to expand approximately 600 times and was expelled through a 2-inch nozzle on the back of the kart, providing thrust much like air being let out of a balloon.

https://www.nhra.com/news/2012/capt-j​a​ck-and-amazing-rocket-go-kart-part-2

Jack McClure Running Rocket Go-Kart
Youtube hgrVJOMWAx8
 
2021-03-12 2:32:30 PM  

aaronx: Wikipedia has a decent entry on the 163. As a kid, I always assumed that it failed in the usual Third Reich way: too little, too late. It was flying pretty early, actually; it just never got terribly effective or practical and was abandoned.


It was also killing more German pilots than the RAF.
 
2021-03-12 2:32:38 PM  
I once attended a lecture given by Rudy Opitz, one of the Komet test pilots:
Fark user imageView Full Size


He told the story that up until that point, test pilots recorded the flight instruments manually in a notebook[1], but the Komet climbed so fast no one could write that fast, so they strapped a camera to the pilot's head and he would look don at the instruments and snap a photo.

He was enthusiastic and really loved the plane.

Another Komet test-pilot was Hanna Reitsch, who was badly injured in a bad landing.  She was also the primary test-pilot for the manned (womaned?) version of the V1.  She remained active in aviation until her death.

Fark user imageView Full Size


Also note:  The catapult that launched the V1 was fueled by the exact same fuel mixture as the Komet.

[1] Using a fountain-pen, which would spill its ink as the air-pressure lowered at altitude, which led a Hungarian test-pilot to invent the ball-point pen.
 
2021-03-12 2:36:55 PM  
Here's an Atlas missile:
Fark user imageView Full Size

See those two steering rockets shooting out sideways?  These are Hydrogen-peroxide.

Note that these early Atlases used the bizarre "Stage and a Half" design because they didn't know how to start an engine off the launch-pad.
 
2021-03-12 2:47:15 PM  

aaronx: Wikipedia has a decent entry on the 163. As a kid, I always assumed that it failed in the usual Third Reich way: too little, too late. It was flying pretty early, actually; it just never got terribly effective or practical and was abandoned.


The Thousand year Reich lasted 12 years.
 
2021-03-12 2:48:32 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!

Just came here to question that.   Mach 1 is 767  MPH   and the article is claiming these planes were doing Mach 1.5 long before Yeager's famous flight?   And no mention of a "sonic boom"?

Yeah, it hit 1130 KPH during testing.  Still awful damn fast for that era of aeronautical engineering, but not no Mach 1.5.

The German war machine desperately needed a Jeff Goldblum  "You are so busy figuring out if you could, you never stopped to ask if you SHOULD"   too many of their designs were engineering marvels that were utterly impractical in service

Call me a traditionalist, but personally, I'm in favor of not interrupting the Nazis when they're making a mistake.

Go back in time and kill Hitler?  Fark, NO!  They might get someone competent...

(That jackass was the best secret weapon the Allies had.)


He is supposed to have had a photographic memory.
 
2021-03-12 2:49:14 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!

Just came here to question that.   Mach 1 is 767  MPH   and the article is claiming these planes were doing Mach 1.5 long before Yeager's famous flight?   And no mention of a "sonic boom"?

Yeah, it hit 1130 KPH during testing.  Still awful damn fast for that era of aeronautical engineering, but not no Mach 1.5.

The German war machine desperately needed a Jeff Goldblum  "You are so busy figuring out if you could, you never stopped to ask if you SHOULD"   too many of their designs were engineering marvels that were utterly impractical in service

Call me a traditionalist, but personally, I'm in favor of not interrupting the Nazis when they're making a mistake.

Go back in time and kill Hitler?  Fark, NO!  They might get someone competent...

(That jackass was the best secret weapon the Allies had.)


But still a left brain dweeb.
 
2021-03-12 3:05:29 PM  

Creepy Lurker Guy: Here's an Atlas missile:
[Fark user image 704x881]
See those two steering rockets shooting out sideways?  These are Hydrogen-peroxide.

Note that these early Atlases used the bizarre "Stage and a Half" design because they didn't know how to start an engine off the launch-pad.


Atlas missiles were weird in that they had no real internal structure and relied on it's fuel to remain rigid. It was literally a balloon made of metal with rocket engines strapped underneath.

A few incident involved an Atlas losing fuel tank pressure and collapsing under it's own weight. One involved an Atlas/Agena stack (seen in this pad footage) and a mariner probe mission.

ATLAS AGENA ROCKET DEPRESSURIZES ON PAD, COLLAPSES AND TEARS ITSELF TO PIECES
Youtube imkdz63agHY
 
2021-03-12 3:22:41 PM  
Those Fokkers were Messerschmitts
 
2021-03-12 3:26:35 PM  

dittybopper: indy_kid: The failure of the Third Reich was due in large part to Hitler's insistence on the "Vengeance" weapons

That really had nothing to do with that.

It had everything to do with the United States entering the war on the side of the Allies.

In 1942, the first full year that the US was involved in WWII, US GDP was 1,259 billion dollars.   The rest of the major combatants, Axis and Allied *COMBINED*, only totaled about 2,839 billion in GDP.

So the US, by itself and before it was fully ramped up, made up about 31% of the combined GDP.  It would peak around 40%, IIRC.

Fact of the matter is that the only way the Axis could have won WWII is to simply keep the US out of the war.

It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler/Mussolini/Tojo had done everything right, they were going to lose the war of logistics.


What dittybopper said. The German economy was never going to win a long war (unless the U.S. joined the Axis effort, a thing Hitler thought might actually happen). There are some pretty good books about it.

Fark user imageView Full Size

I really liked "The Wages of Destruction" by Adam Tooze.
 
2021-03-12 3:35:13 PM  

Magorn: too many of their designs were engineering marvels that were utterly impractical in service


Another one was that gigantic tank they built two of, then realized none of their bridges would hold it.
 
2021-03-12 3:40:33 PM  

stuhayes2010: It is funny that people think hydrogen peroxide is not dangerous, until you tell them that stuff in your medicine cabinet is 1% peroxide, 99% water.  If it were pure peroxide, you wouldn't have a finger left with a cut on it.


3%, but otherwise correct.

Hydrogen Peroxide was also used in those old-school jet packs, before people managed to scale actual jet engines down to that size.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-03-12 4:12:21 PM  

dittybopper: indy_kid: The failure of the Third Reich was due in large part to Hitler's insistence on the "Vengeance" weapons

That really had nothing to do with that.

It had everything to do with the United States entering the war on the side of the Allies.

In 1942, the first full year that the US was involved in WWII, US GDP was 1,259 billion dollars.   The rest of the major combatants, Axis and Allied *COMBINED*, only totaled about 2,839 billion in GDP.

So the US, by itself and before it was fully ramped up, made up about 31% of the combined GDP.  It would peak around 40%, IIRC.

Fact of the matter is that the only way the Axis could have won WWII is to simply keep the US out of the war.

It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler/Mussolini/Tojo had done everything right, they were going to lose the war of logistics.


As the said of the Civil war: Lee was a military genius, Grant could count.   Even if his losses ran 2:1 he'd bleed the south dry in a couple years and still have full armies to mop up with thanks to the population differences
 
2021-03-12 4:33:56 PM  

dittybopper: indy_kid: The failure of the Third Reich was due in large part to Hitler's insistence on the "Vengeance" weapons

That really had nothing to do with that.

It had everything to do with the United States entering the war on the side of the Allies.

In 1942, the first full year that the US was involved in WWII, US GDP was 1,259 billion dollars.   The rest of the major combatants, Axis and Allied *COMBINED*, only totaled about 2,839 billion in GDP.

So the US, by itself and before it was fully ramped up, made up about 31% of the combined GDP.  It would peak around 40%, IIRC.

Fact of the matter is that the only way the Axis could have won WWII is to simply keep the US out of the war.

It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler/Mussolini/Tojo had done everything right, they were going to lose the war of logistics.


US entry made an allied military victory inevitable, otherwise it would have ended like WW1 with Germany being starved of resources (mainly oil) needed to win it by the British naval blockade.
 
2021-03-12 4:58:58 PM  
so I just realized, by reading this, that some nazis did melt like in Raiders.
 
2021-03-12 5:19:58 PM  

dittybopper: indy_kid: The failure of the Third Reich was due in large part to Hitler's insistence on the "Vengeance" weapons

That really had nothing to do with that.

It had everything to do with the United States entering the war on the side of the Allies.

In 1942, the first full year that the US was involved in WWII, US GDP was 1,259 billion dollars.   The rest of the major combatants, Axis and Allied *COMBINED*, only totaled about 2,839 billion in GDP.

So the US, by itself and before it was fully ramped up, made up about 31% of the combined GDP.  It would peak around 40%, IIRC.

Fact of the matter is that the only way the Axis could have won WWII is to simply keep the US out of the war.

It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler/Mussolini/Tojo had done everything right, they were going to lose the war of logistics.


Germany really lost when Barbarossa failed. They never had enough resources to take on Russia, especially oil to have any chance at all to win. The failure of the Case Blue summer 42 offensive sealed the deal. But even if they had gotten the oil, it would have been pretty hard to refine it and transport it back to Germany. This all happened before America started throwing any punches at Germany.
 
2021-03-12 5:25:58 PM  
"T-Stoff leaking from the ruptured line had dissolved the unconscious Pohs alive."

At least they hope he was unconscious.
 
2021-03-12 5:27:41 PM  
Me-163 pilots be like
media.tenor.comView Full Size
 
2021-03-12 5:42:50 PM  

MythDragon: "T-Stoff leaking from the ruptured line had dissolved the unconscious Pohs alive."

At least they hope he was unconscious.


Typical Nazi thinking, the benefits outweighed the risks to them.
 
2021-03-12 5:51:23 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!


They were clocking the shrapnel from the failed tests?
 
2021-03-12 6:06:17 PM  
That's why they were trying to steal Cliff Secord's pack. It would have provided their planes with a stable and efficient fuel source and engine. Failing to do so meant they had to go with what they had.
 
2021-03-12 6:32:45 PM  

Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Magorn: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Not a bad article, IF you can overlook the fact that the jackass of an author doesn't know the difference between 'MPH' and 'KPH'.

ME-163 hit 1130 MPH during testing, MY ASS!

Just came here to question that.   Mach 1 is 767  MPH   and the article is claiming these planes were doing Mach 1.5 long before Yeager's famous flight?   And no mention of a "sonic boom"?

Yeah, it hit 1130 KPH during testing.  Still awful damn fast for that era of aeronautical engineering, but not no Mach 1.5.

The German war machine desperately needed a Jeff Goldblum  "You are so busy figuring out if you could, you never stopped to ask if you SHOULD"   too many of their designs were engineering marvels that were utterly impractical in service


Nobody needs a Jeff Goldblum. Ever.
 
2021-03-12 6:47:30 PM  

Sensei Can You See: Sensei Can You See: I saw a documentary awhile back about these guys who built 200mph go-carts powered by hydrogen peroxide.

Here it is. Apparently this maniac's go-cart did 5-second quarter mile runs at 240mph. Video goodness at the bottom. Can you imagine 5-second quarter-miles just sitting in this thing with no protection and your ass 2 inches off the track?

The only advantage the helmet would provide is you'd be able to have an open-casket funeral. He does 4.7 at 315mph in the video.

[speednik.com image 640x443]

In a nutshell, hydrogen-peroxide engines made their incredible power very simply: Nearly pure hydrogen peroxide was fed through a nickel-silver catalyst screen that caused the fuel mix to expand approximately 600 times and was expelled through a 2-inch nozzle on the back of the kart, providing thrust much like air being let out of a balloon.

https://www.nhra.com/news/2012/capt-ja​ck-and-amazing-rocket-go-kart-part-2

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/hgrVJOMW​Ax8]


I actually saw one of these run at a drag strip back in the 60's. It was a go-kart powered by a Turbonique gas turbine, using hydrogen peroxide as the fuel. The guy that drove it claimed that his biggest danger was centrifugal force expanding his solid little tires to the point where they threatened to come off the rim. At 180 MPH.

Back in the 60's, nitromethane mixed with hydrazine was briefly used as a fuel in drag racing. I still remember that ammonia smell. After a couple of accidental explosions, it got banned.

Does anybody from the Midwest remember E.J. Potter (the Michigan Madman)? His V8-powered drag bike was also hugely impressive.
 
2021-03-12 6:54:39 PM  

Clash City Farker: dittybopper: indy_kid: The failure of the Third Reich was due in large part to Hitler's insistence on the "Vengeance" weapons

That really had nothing to do with that.

It had everything to do with the United States entering the war on the side of the Allies.

In 1942, the first full year that the US was involved in WWII, US GDP was 1,259 billion dollars.   The rest of the major combatants, Axis and Allied *COMBINED*, only totaled about 2,839 billion in GDP.

So the US, by itself and before it was fully ramped up, made up about 31% of the combined GDP.  It would peak around 40%, IIRC.

Fact of the matter is that the only way the Axis could have won WWII is to simply keep the US out of the war.

It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler/Mussolini/Tojo had done everything right, they were going to lose the war of logistics.

Germany really lost when Barbarossa failed. They never had enough resources to take on Russia, especially oil to have any chance at all to win. The failure of the Case Blue summer 42 offensive sealed the deal. But even if they had gotten the oil, it would have been pretty hard to refine it and transport it back to Germany. This all happened before America started throwing any punches at Germany.


Nope.  Without Lend-Lease, the USSR would have eventually been exhausted.  The Eastern Front would have inevitably need much like it did in WWI.

After the war, the Soviets minimized how much the US helped them.  But Marshal Zhukov did mention how essential the aid from the US was to the Red Army.
 
2021-03-12 7:20:30 PM  

dittybopper: Clash City Farker: dittybopper: indy_kid: The failure of the Third Reich was due in large part to Hitler's insistence on the "Vengeance" weapons

That really had nothing to do with that.

It had everything to do with the United States entering the war on the side of the Allies.

In 1942, the first full year that the US was involved in WWII, US GDP was 1,259 billion dollars.   The rest of the major combatants, Axis and Allied *COMBINED*, only totaled about 2,839 billion in GDP.

So the US, by itself and before it was fully ramped up, made up about 31% of the combined GDP.  It would peak around 40%, IIRC.

Fact of the matter is that the only way the Axis could have won WWII is to simply keep the US out of the war.

It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler/Mussolini/Tojo had done everything right, they were going to lose the war of logistics.

Germany really lost when Barbarossa failed. They never had enough resources to take on Russia, especially oil to have any chance at all to win. The failure of the Case Blue summer 42 offensive sealed the deal. But even if they had gotten the oil, it would have been pretty hard to refine it and transport it back to Germany. This all happened before America started throwing any punches at Germany.

Nope.  Without Lend-Lease, the USSR would have eventually been exhausted.  The Eastern Front would have inevitably need much like it did in WWI.

After the war, the Soviets minimized how much the US helped them.  But Marshal Zhukov did mention how essential the aid from the US was to the Red Army.


Nope. Lend Lease speeded up the Red Army effort to take Berlin, yes. But Lend Lease came to late to be a decisive factor in Soviet victory.

To your point about ending like a WWI stalemate, no. Not while the Soviet had unlimited oil and the Germans had practically none.
 
2021-03-12 7:37:41 PM  
The "pro" of the Komet's speed actually turned out to be a con. The Komet would overtake the B24s, B17s and their P51 escorts which it was trying to shoot down at closing speeds in the area of 250+ mph.

It turns out, trying to put enough bullets in any of those to shoot them down when you've got one pass worth of fuel and that pass lasts all of a few seconds is extremely difficult.
 
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