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(NPR)   300 Years ago a virus was raging through England causing death and misery and forcing the whole country into lockdown. A woman who'd spent time in the Ottoman Empire knew how to stop it, but many wouldn't listen, because woman and because "foreigners"   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Facepalm, Inoculation, Vaccination, Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, Edward Jenner, Smallpox, Lady Mary, Ottoman Empire, distant Ottoman Empire  
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5997 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Mar 2021 at 1:48 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-03-08 1:06:14 PM  
That was a good read. Thank you
 
2021-03-08 1:26:22 PM  
If you read TFA it actually says that in the UK she was listened to, the future Queen got inoculated and it became common.

That's because the technique she'd borrowed from Ottoman women did take hold in England. Many thousands were inoculated, including a young boy named Edward Jenner. He went on to develop the first vaccine, also against smallpox."

Jenner is the guy that Thomas Jefferson thanked for his work on vaccines. America might not have beaten the British and won independence if not for vaccination.
 
2021-03-08 1:56:21 PM  
The prices at Ottoman Empire are Sofa King good.
 
2021-03-08 1:58:01 PM  
So, sexism and racism have been f*cking us over for centuries, got it.
 
2021-03-08 1:58:04 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: If you read TFA it actually says that in the UK she was listened to, the future Queen got inoculated and it became common.

That's because the technique she'd borrowed from Ottoman women did take hold in England. Many thousands were inoculated, including a young boy named Edward Jenner. He went on to develop the first vaccine, also against smallpox."

Jenner is the guy that Thomas Jefferson thanked for his work on vaccines. America might not have beaten the British and won independence if not for vaccination.


Any hints on how long it took between the pandemic and when the Queen was convinced to try inoculation? They mention that they tested it on orphans and condemned criminals first.
 
2021-03-08 1:58:08 PM  
fake news, everyone knows leeches are the path to viral salvation.
 
2021-03-08 2:00:14 PM  
And the Trumpanzee Kultists are ready to start truck bombing hospitals to stop the current round of inoculations.
 
2021-03-08 2:01:01 PM  
"The technique was known as engrafting, variolation or, simply, inoculation. It is thought to have originated in China centuries earlier, and it was also practiced in India and Africa."

Well clearly this is all fiction as we've all been taught it was a white man that came up with this.
 
2021-03-08 2:03:04 PM  
i.ytimg.comView Full Size
 
2021-03-08 2:04:44 PM  
We haven't evolved much since then.
 
2021-03-08 2:05:16 PM  
... But nobody listened BECAUSE THE LOUDEST PEOPLE WOULD TALK OVER HER AND SCREAM AT ANY SUPPORTERS.
 
2021-03-08 2:06:36 PM  

I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: "The technique was known as engrafting, variolation or, simply, inoculation. It is thought to have originated in China centuries earlier, and it was also practiced in India and Africa."

Well clearly this is all fiction as we've all been taught it was a white man that came up with this.


The queen got a placebo, as you well know!  I saw you give it to her.  Immortality is not boring, stop messing with these people.
 
2021-03-08 2:10:24 PM  
FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.
 
2021-03-08 2:10:48 PM  
Says right here that the practice was first brought to the attention of the Royal Society in 1716 by Giacomo Pylarini

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inocula​t​ion

Of course, that doesn't make for as good of a story as "wise noble woman travels to constantinople and the MALE dominated MONEY DRIVEN male medical establishment in England didn't believe her".

The farking medical establishment in England also had Ignaz Semmelwiese locked up in the looney in the 19th century for trying to get them to wash their hands between handling cadavers and delivering babies.
 
2021-03-08 2:12:34 PM  
1717 isn't that long after the Ottoman's last siege of Vienna, so distrust isn't as crazy as it sounds.
 
2021-03-08 2:16:06 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.


TFA says there's plenty of written records about these women, including from the Queen of England. You've got to have a particularly sensitive machismo to have that take.
 
2021-03-08 2:17:44 PM  

PawisBetlog: fake news, everyone knows leeches are the path to viral salvation.


Blackadder Bells Leeches Manservant Doctor
Youtube T3D6Ecs7VhQ
 
2021-03-08 2:20:53 PM  
We all know what happened next.
media.npr.orgView Full Size
 
2021-03-08 2:23:44 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.


Way to leave off the second half of that sentence that explains exactly how they knew it was being ignored.

Might snowflake of you too distort reality to make you feel better about yourself.
 
2021-03-08 2:24:18 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.


Medical texts are the only kind of written record.
 
2021-03-08 2:25:20 PM  

austerity101: So, sexism and racism have been f*cking us over for centuries, got it.


You forgot the greed and avarice.
 
2021-03-08 2:25:41 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.


They're missing from Ottoman medical texts, not from the written record.

Slavery also was a primary cause of the American Civil War despite the South's numerous attempts at reframing history around state's rights.  Just because their history books don't include it doesn't mean there aren't other sources that fill in the gaps in the record.
 
2021-03-08 2:26:00 PM  
Because woman, because Swarthy Foreign Boogeymen and because Scary Mooselimbs.
 
2021-03-08 2:32:47 PM  
Good article.  There's more out there as well.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti​c​les/PMC1200696/
 
2021-03-08 2:40:48 PM  
That's it, we should cancel all of those 18th Century racist white male doctors.  Imma start tweeting about it.  Hopefully it will go viral
 
2021-03-08 2:40:49 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.


Medical texts are the only historical documents of that time. Got it.
 
2021-03-08 2:46:22 PM  

Marshmallow Jones: That's it, we should cancel all of those 18th Century racist white male doctors.  Imma start tweeting about it.  Hopefully it will go viral


No one's trying to cancel shiat, but it probably wouldn't hurt to give credit to females/minorities of the time whose work was stolen then branded with a white guy's name.

/Women invented/discovered lots of stuff back then.  No one took it seriously unless it was presented with a white guy's name on it.
 
2021-03-08 2:47:20 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.


no written record in MEDICAL TEXTS.  Historical texts are entirely different, but I'm guessing you already know that and you're trolling so here's a bite.
 
2021-03-08 2:52:21 PM  

ansius: GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.

Medical texts are the only historical documents of that time. Got it.


calibrating sarcasm detectors.  please stand by...
 
2021-03-08 2:53:48 PM  

Mister Buttons: Marshmallow Jones: That's it, we should cancel all of those 18th Century racist white male doctors.  Imma start tweeting about it.  Hopefully it will go viral

No one's trying to cancel shiat, but it probably wouldn't hurt to give credit to females/minorities of the time whose work was stolen then branded with a white guy's name.

/Women invented/discovered lots of stuff back then.  No one took it seriously unless it was presented with a white guy's name on it.

OMG I bet Sun Tzu didn't write all that stuff, either!
 
2021-03-08 2:57:34 PM  

UltimaCS: GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.

TFA says there's plenty of written records about these women, including from the Queen of England. You've got to have a particularly sensitive machismo to have that take.


It says accounts still exist of the women in the Ottoman, but it doesn't really explain what that means.

I don't really care one way or another, but if you're going to write a story that amounts to:

All these stupid men just wouldn't listen to these women who had it all figured out

You should have a little more detail about your source, which from what the article included could be anything.  Like my cousins friends brother told me.
 
2021-03-08 3:09:10 PM  

ansius: GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.

Medical texts are the only historical documents of that time. Got it.


There had already been a lot written about the history of smallpox inoculation prior to this.

All I'm saying is if you're going to write an article basically stating "everything we've been told abt inoculation is wrong" I'd like a little better sourcing than "some accounts".

And maybe for the article to sound a little more professional than "men are all stupid liars and women are super geniuses" which is kind of how this reads.
 
2021-03-08 3:09:41 PM  

UltimaCS: GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.

TFA says there's plenty of written records about these women, including from the Queen of England. You've got to have a particularly sensitive machismo to have that take.


Fragile male ego? In MY Fark?
 
2021-03-08 3:12:28 PM  
Grundy says reluctance to adopt the practice was about prejudice, not science. "It comes from an Islamic country that we regard as backwards - 'How could they have the answer to smallpox?' - and also it was something done by women, which is bad."

In 1717, Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, the wife of the British ambassador, learned about variolation in Constantinople. In 1721, at the urging of Montagu and the Princess of Wales, several prisoners and abandoned children were inoculated by having smallpox inserted under the skin. Several months later, the children and prisoners were deliberately exposed to smallpox. When none contracted the disease, the procedure was deemed safe and members of the royal family were inoculated. The procedure then became fashionable in Europe.

One of representations is true and one of these representations is false.
 
2021-03-08 3:16:07 PM  
Or actually they're probably both true and false in varying degrees

and neutral presentations are few and far between
 
2021-03-08 3:22:00 PM  

0z79: UltimaCS: GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.

TFA says there's plenty of written records about these women, including from the Queen of England. You've got to have a particularly sensitive machismo to have that take.

Fragile male ego? In MY Fark?


No, I'm just super picky about journalism and and proper sourcing.

To paraphrase the article-  women are basically single handedly responsible for  bringing small pox inoculation to Europe.  And not only did men not believe them back then, they covered the fact up that it was women in the written records.


Those are some really strong assertions.  I'd like to see a better source for all the author is implying than "according to some accounts"
 
2021-03-08 3:22:44 PM  

bhcompy: Slavery also was a primary cause of the American Civil War despite the South's numerous attempts at reframing history around state's rights


the southern states did not like the anti-slavery/property laws the northern states were passing

as I recall, some even included anti-states rights reasoning into their articles of succession
 
2021-03-08 3:31:43 PM  

aungen: OMG I bet Sun Tzu didn't write all that stuff, either!


His original title was:
The Art of Making New Friends

That's what my translation is called.
 
2021-03-08 3:35:37 PM  
zepillin:

Yeah.  In modern times some people might consider Islamic countries "backwards" but for most of history Islamic countries were very scientifically advanced compared to Europe.

The author cites zero evidence that Europeans in the 1700's thought of Islamic countries as "backwards"

(But it is trendy nowadays for people to rewrite historical events from a "woke perspective".   Hmmmmm)
 
2021-03-08 3:45:44 PM  
It's Womxn's History Month.  Come April 1, these kind of stories will suddenly stop being published.
 
2021-03-08 3:46:02 PM  

zepillin: bhcompy: Slavery also was a primary cause of the American Civil War despite the South's numerous attempts at reframing history around state's rights

the southern states did not like the anti-slavery/property laws the northern states were passing

as I recall, some even included anti-states rights reasoning into their articles of succession


One.   South Carolina. and even that one first complains about slavery
 
2021-03-08 3:50:40 PM  
Misogyny and xenophobia is in such short supply we have to import it from the past.
 
2021-03-08 3:51:46 PM  

bhcompy: GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.

They're missing from Ottoman medical texts, not from the written record.

Slavery also was a primary cause of the American Civil War despite the South's numerous attempts at reframing history around state's rights.  Just because their history books don't include it doesn't mean there aren't other sources that fill in the gaps in the record.


Also, their own declarations of their causes clearly list it as the primary reason, despite nobody in the South ever having read them - you know, like The Bible.
 
2021-03-08 3:57:57 PM  

Mister Buttons: Marshmallow Jones: That's it, we should cancel all of those 18th Century racist white male doctors.  Imma start tweeting about it.  Hopefully it will go viral

No one's trying to cancel shiat, but it probably wouldn't hurt to give credit to females/minorities of the time whose work was stolen then branded with a white guy's name.

/Women invented/discovered lots of stuff back then.  No one took it seriously unless it was presented with a white guy's name on it.


Hence, many female authors/artists/scientists w/ male pseudonyms
 
2021-03-08 4:02:30 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: zepillin:

Yeah.  In modern times some people might consider Islamic countries "backwards" but for most of history Islamic countries were very scientifically advanced compared to Europe.

The author cites zero evidence that Europeans in the 1700's thought of Islamic countries as "backwards"

(But it is trendy nowadays for people to rewrite historical events from a "woke perspective".   Hmmmmm)


by the 1700's the Islamic world's place in the forefront of science an medicine was a fading memory.   The utter destruction of Baghdad, and the House  of Wisdom in the 1300's and distinct strain of anti-intellectualism in the Islamic thought ( if it is not in the Koran it is heresy, and if it is in the Koran then why additional writing on it needed?) of the 1600's started turning them inward and backward just as the Enlightenment was taking hold in Europe.  By the  Mid 1700's the Ottoman Empire, much like the Spanish Empire as considered..."antique" at best, in another hundred years the "sick old man of Europe" label would start to be applied to it.
 
2021-03-08 4:04:48 PM  

scalpod: bhcompy: GrizzlyPouch: FTA-

"Yerlioglu says the practice is strikingly absent from Ottoman medical texts written by men,"

So there's no written record of all these women going around inoculating people.  But trust us, they did.

They're missing from Ottoman medical texts, not from the written record.

Slavery also was a primary cause of the American Civil War despite the South's numerous attempts at reframing history around state's rights.  Just because their history books don't include it doesn't mean there aren't other sources that fill in the gaps in the record.

Also, their own declarations of their causes clearly list it as the primary reason, despite nobody in the South ever having read them - you know, like The Bible.


It was only in the last ten years that I learned those documents even existed, and I got fives on my AP US history and AP us Government tests in HS
 
2021-03-08 4:07:23 PM  

Deathfrogg: And the Trumpanzee Kultists are ready to start truck bombing hospitals to stop the current round of inoculations.


Of all the people I know...
Libertarians: 100% fully vaccinated
Republicans: Some vaccinated, the rest trying very hard to get vaccinated
Democrats: 2 say they will never get vaccinated ever, some saying they'll get it whenever, some trying very hard, the rest already vaccinated
0 total people trying to bomb hospitals

Your experience seems to be very different than mine. Shockingly different
 
2021-03-08 5:02:56 PM  

Spice Must Flow: aungen: OMG I bet Sun Tzu didn't write all that stuff, either!

His original title was:
The Art of Making New Friends

That's what my translation is called.


The practice was to assign the article to someone who was a known element, and disperse the knowledge that way.  Lots of people wrote the book that gets passed around as 'The Art of War.'  It could have been male or female input, but you'll never know.  They didn't care who actually wrote it, for most of written history.
 
2021-03-08 5:09:18 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: Jenner is the guy that Thomas Jefferson thanked for his work on vaccines. America might not have beaten the British and won independence if not for vaccination.


Jefferson thanked Jenner on behalf of the world, not America. Jenner's first experimental vaccination was in 1796, thirteen years after American Independence. Which was won, in part, because Washington insisted on variolation (not vaccination) of the troops under his command.
 
2021-03-08 5:14:51 PM  

HotLonelyTeenageGirl: The farking medical establishment in England also had Ignaz Semmelwiese locked up in the looney in the 19th century for trying to get them to wash their hands between handling cadavers and delivering babies.


Semmelweis was locked up in Vienna, where he lived and worked, save for a period in Pest.
 
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