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(The Truth About Cars)   Stellantis is instituting an 84 hour workweek in one of its US plants   (thetruthaboutcars.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Trade union, hour days, alternative work schedule, skilled trade workers, alternative schedule, union members, long hours, Detroit Free Press  
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1659 clicks; posted to Business » on 08 Mar 2021 at 2:50 AM (10 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-03-08 12:13:05 AM  
We Work Hard, We Play Hard (Simpsons)
Youtube 3QptgcUtik8
 
2021-03-08 12:30:44 AM  
For just a second, I thought this was about Stellaris.
 
2021-03-08 12:38:51 AM  
I don't see how they can expect to get safe and productive labor from workers who are putting in those hours.

Accidents will go up, and quality will go down.
 
2021-03-08 12:41:20 AM  
Did the pandemic end? What is this shiat?
 
2021-03-08 12:48:12 AM  

Bennie Crabtree: Did the pandemic end? What is this shiat?


This?  This is the end of organized labor for at least a generation in this country.
 
2021-03-08 12:54:13 AM  
And the floggings will continue until morale improves.
 
2021-03-08 1:22:11 AM  
I don't think overwork will get those things built any crappier
 
2021-03-08 3:04:21 AM  
If you have a union and are working 84 hour weeks, something has gone horribly wrong.
 
2021-03-08 3:13:52 AM  
Happens all the time at Tier 1 and Tier 2 plants, but they don't warrant press coverage.  I know of places where 12 hours, 6 days is the minimum, throughout the plant, with months long stretches of 7 days.  Always find that the plant is poorly managed in a hundred other ways.  And yes, the workers are sullen and less effective.
 
2021-03-08 4:48:22 AM  
If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week, they can afford to double the amount of workers.
Or they'll have half the staff in three weeks and they'll have everyone working 168 hour weeks and charging them rent.
 
2021-03-08 5:06:31 AM  
How Management views Labor.
media0.giphy.comView Full Size

Workers are just grist for the mill.
 
2021-03-08 5:27:19 AM  
Can their product quality actually get any worse? We'll soon find out!
 
2021-03-08 5:38:50 AM  
It's not Tesla, so it's ok.
 
2021-03-08 5:41:47 AM  

gas giant: Can their product quality actually get any worse? We'll soon find out!


Not just errors and corner cutting will come from this. They can look forward to higher accident rates, worse accidents, and worker burnout as well. Let's not forget the health effects of working long hours as well trashing peoples bodies as the lack of rest lowers immune responses and increased blood pressure.

For the price of paying for the overtime, they could just hire more workers. Yes these are trained workers and trades, but there is an easy and effective way to fix that called running an apprentice program or training program. Overworking skilled trades is a good way to have trouble hiring new ones.
 
2021-03-08 6:12:02 AM  
Damn.  I hate to think how bad they'd have it without a union negotiating on their behalf.
 
2021-03-08 6:49:12 AM  
How about this.  If you can't get enough people to avoid gaps in production on weekends, pay a bonus for weekend work.  Raise the amount until enough people are interested that your weekend staffing needs are satisfied.  Capitalism!

/though you know if they did that and it was great for all involved, UAW will find a way to fark it up
 
2021-03-08 6:50:37 AM  
But do they work every week?  Ive had a few jobs where everyone is 12 on 12 off for 2 weeks, but then off 2 weeks.
 
2021-03-08 6:58:12 AM  

Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week,


It's not overtime, the 84 hours are interspersed with a full week off.  Well maybe 2 hours overtime per week.  The idea, I assume, is to eliminate discretion in shift times, though it seems like way overkill to me.

And yet I know some people who would take this kind of offer in a heartbeat, though to be fair they don't exactly work jobs where alertness lapses can destroy the product or get you killed.
 
2021-03-08 7:16:30 AM  

gozar_the_destroyer: gas giant: Can their product quality actually get any worse? We'll soon find out!

Not just errors and corner cutting will come from this. They can look forward to higher accident rates, worse accidents, and worker burnout as well. Let's not forget the health effects of working long hours as well trashing peoples bodies as the lack of rest lowers immune responses and increased blood pressure.

For the price of paying for the overtime, they could just hire more workers. Yes these are trained workers and trades, but there is an easy and effective way to fix that called running an apprentice program or training program. Overworking skilled trades is a good way to have trouble hiring new ones.


Aw, all that won't happen for MONTHS! But my performance review and bonus negotiation are both next week, and I need something to show before I change jobs for the consulting firm this summer, where I can tell this factory what's causing them to miss delivery.
 
2021-03-08 7:28:39 AM  

Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week, they can afford to double the amount of workers.
Or they'll have half the staff in three weeks and they'll have everyone working 168 hour weeks and charging them rent.


Not if they have pensions and lifetime health/dental contracts in retirement.  Each employee could easily run well above $1M per year.  The overtime costs are relatively cheap in comparison.
The union could give up these benefits, take a 401k, and go on medicare in retirement, then the company might hire a second shift.  Might.
 
2021-03-08 8:42:56 AM  

Myrdinn: For just a second, I thought this was about Stellaris.


84 hours a week sounds about right. F'ing time-sucking game. I played for 150 hours before I even fought my first war. And I've spent almost as much time fiddling with mods.
 
2021-03-08 9:21:26 AM  

Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week


They don't do that. It's 7 days on, 7 days off. OT doesn't start until you pass 80 hours in the two-week pay period.
 
2021-03-08 10:01:12 AM  

Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week, they can afford to double the amount of workers.
Or they'll have half the staff in three weeks and they'll have everyone working 168 hour weeks and charging them rent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1by0-​n​kKOTs

They will even have to lick the road clean with their tounge.
 
2021-03-08 10:15:28 AM  

Northern: Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week, they can afford to double the amount of workers.
Or they'll have half the staff in three weeks and they'll have everyone working 168 hour weeks and charging them rent.

Not if they have pensions and lifetime health/dental contracts in retirement.  Each employee could easily run well above $1M per year.  The overtime costs are relatively cheap in comparison.
The union could give up these benefits, take a 401k, and go on medicare in retirement, then the company might hire a second shift.  Might.


A million a year per retiree? What kind of nonsense is that? Did you mean a million per retiree lifetime? That is a more reasonable statement.
 
2021-03-08 10:16:47 AM  

ryant123: Myrdinn: For just a second, I thought this was about Stellaris.

84 hours a week sounds about right. F'ing time-sucking game. I played for 150 hours before I even fought my first war. And I've spent almost as much time fiddling with mods.


I play Stellaris too...so I'm getting a kick...
 
2021-03-08 10:29:25 AM  

Northern: Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week, they can afford to double the amount of workers.
Or they'll have half the staff in three weeks and they'll have everyone working 168 hour weeks and charging them rent.

Not if they have pensions and lifetime health/dental contracts in retirement.  Each employee could easily run well above $1M per year.  The overtime costs are relatively cheap in comparison.
The union could give up these benefits, take a 401k, and go on medicare in retirement, then the company might hire a second shift.  Might.


Or strike.
 
2021-03-08 10:51:24 AM  

EvilEgg: If you have a union and are working 84 hour weeks, something has gone horribly wrong.


This. It is an allowed schedule per their most recent collective bargaining agreement. Normally you would hope that the company would simply come up with some incentives to attract people to the weekend shifts but with a union all of that has to be negotiated upfront or as an amendment to the contract.
 
2021-03-08 10:51:46 AM  
I get the appeal.  You get to run the lines 168 hours a week and avoid paying much overtime.  2 12 hour shifts every day and a total of 4 shifts alternating weekly.

The problem is that you get less efficient production out of workers past about 30 hours a week, at 80 hours they just don't give a fark anymore.  Then there's safety issues with fatigued workers to consider.

If you're going with the 4 shift approach it's better to alternate between 3 and 4 12 hour day work weeks.

For example shift 1 works Monday Through Thursday 6:00AM to 6:00PM, Shift 2 works Monday through Friday Morning 6:00PM to 6:00AM, Shift 3 takes over Friday Morning at 6:00AM and is relieved at 6:00PM by Shift 4.  Then next week Shifts 1 and 2 only work Through Wednesday while shifts 3 and 4 work 4 12 hour days and you keep alternating.

That way nobody is working more than 48 hours a week unless they want to and all the workers get 3 and 4 day weekends every week.  You'll have to pay the night and weekend shift workers a little bit more, but shift premiums are pretty standard at factories.  Or you can keep the weekday workers at 4 12's and give your weekend crews working 3 12's indefinitely.

Of course the best approach is to run 3 shifts at 8 hour days throughout the week and have a fourth and fifth shift on 12 hour days for the weekends... but that's expensive and good factory workers are hard to come by.
 
2021-03-08 10:52:30 AM  
They do studies of workers working three 12-hour shifts then 3 days off and performance isn't always consistent.
Drs do work longer shifts than that with more rest in between, something about better transfer of patients' cases between shifts.

Not for everyone. 7-7 rotation sounds more like something we'd see on an oil rig where the workers live there (but it's more like 14 or 21 days). 
And the minute that worker has family to tend to, they'll hate that 84-hour week and will probably look elsewhere.
 
2021-03-08 11:23:02 AM  

Psychopompous: How Management views Labor.
[media0.giphy.com image 500x376] [View Full Size image _x_]
Workers are just grist for the mill.


*shrugs* I'm low level management at a factory and I've never hesitated to shut down a line if I thought the working conditions were unsafe.  Although there was one time, where I knew a product had to be made despite the machine in question not being safe to operate in my opinion... I ran it myself.  I'd much rather I get injured than witness any of my workers get hurt.

I want safety and good production from my workers and I routinely go to the mat with my boss and my bosses' boss to get more money and better working conditions for them.  They're also safety oriented and were pissed off at me for running that line that day.
 
2021-03-08 11:30:19 AM  

BizarreMan: I don't see how they can expect to get safe and productive labor from workers who are putting in those hours.

Accidents will go up, and quality will go down.


Lolzz

Losers work 84 hours a week

Unless they own their own business.
 
2021-03-08 11:33:23 AM  

BizarreMan: I don't see how they can expect to get safe and productive labor from workers who are putting in those hours.

Accidents will go up, and quality will go down.


And turnover is thru the roof.

Course it does remind me of the good ole days of slavery.

And sit at home stock owners kind of like it.
 
2021-03-08 11:34:15 AM  

kudayta: Bennie Crabtree: Did the pandemic end? What is this shiat?

This?  This is the end of organized labor for at least a generation in this country.


Murcans will love being owned by their employers
 
2021-03-08 11:39:39 AM  

Naido: Happens all the time at Tier 1 and Tier 2 plants, but they don't warrant press coverage.  I know of places where 12 hours, 6 days is the minimum, throughout the plant, with months long stretches of 7 days.  Always find that the plant is poorly managed in a hundred other ways.  And yes, the workers are sullen and less effective.


Every capitalist pigs dream is owning his own slaves.
 
2021-03-08 11:40:28 AM  

Naido: Happens all the time at Tier 1 and Tier 2 plants, but they don't warrant press coverage.  I know of places where 12 hours, 6 days is the minimum, throughout the plant, with months long stretches of 7 days.  Always find that the plant is poorly managed in a hundred other ways.  And yes, the workers are sullen and less effective.


I bet many of them are brown and black.
 
2021-03-08 11:45:47 AM  

cptcaveman: EvilEgg: If you have a union and are working 84 hour weeks, something has gone horribly wrong.

This. It is an allowed schedule per their most recent collective bargaining agreement. Normally you would hope that the company would simply come up with some incentives to attract people to the weekend shifts but with a union all of that has to be negotiated upfront or as an amendment to the contract.



Pattern bargaining doesn't apply to Chrysler/Fiat/Stellantis apparently. Ford and GM language is much different.

I hope a tradesman after working 84 hours doesn't fall asleep at the wheel, cross the center line and kill Mommy and Daddy and Junior heading out for an ice cream cone. That would be an atrocity. (committed by the tradesman, of course) He should have gotten more sleep! Totally irresponsible!
 
2021-03-08 11:47:13 AM  

ryant123: Myrdinn: For just a second, I thought this was about Stellaris.

84 hours a week sounds about right. F'ing time-sucking game. I played for 150 hours before I even fought my first war. And I've spent almost as much time fiddling with mods.


Nothing like owning stock and living off someone elses labor.
 
2021-03-08 11:52:57 AM  

WWTandPD: cptcaveman: EvilEgg: If you have a union and are working 84 hour weeks, something has gone horribly wrong.

This. It is an allowed schedule per their most recent collective bargaining agreement. Normally you would hope that the company would simply come up with some incentives to attract people to the weekend shifts but with a union all of that has to be negotiated upfront or as an amendment to the contract.


Pattern bargaining doesn't apply to Chrysler/Fiat/Stellantis apparently. Ford and GM language is much different.

I hope a tradesman after working 84 hours doesn't fall asleep at the wheel, cross the center line and kill Mommy and Daddy and Junior heading out for an ice cream cone. That would be an atrocity. (committed by the tradesman, of course) He should have gotten more sleep! Totally irresponsible!


Lawyer paradise
 
2021-03-08 12:03:44 PM  

Linux_Yes: WWTandPD: cptcaveman: EvilEgg: If you have a union and are working 84 hour weeks, something has gone horribly wrong.

This. It is an allowed schedule per their most recent collective bargaining agreement. Normally you would hope that the company would simply come up with some incentives to attract people to the weekend shifts but with a union all of that has to be negotiated upfront or as an amendment to the contract.


Pattern bargaining doesn't apply to Chrysler/Fiat/Stellantis apparently. Ford and GM language is much different.

I hope a tradesman after working 84 hours doesn't fall asleep at the wheel, cross the center line and kill Mommy and Daddy and Junior heading out for an ice cream cone. That would be an atrocity. (committed by the tradesman, of course) He should have gotten more sleep! Totally irresponsible!

Lawyer paradise


You would think so but...
 
2021-03-08 1:23:20 PM  

ryant123: Myrdinn: For just a second, I thought this was about Stellaris.


84 hours a week sounds about right. F'ing time-sucking game. I played for 150 hours before I even fought my first war. And I've spent almost as much time fiddling with mods.


Well, to be fair, you spent 84 hours of the 120 watching TV waiting for enough influence to do anything.

/Stellaris is a bad game because of that mechanic
//That and not being able to set fleet orders
///And paradox's idiotic insistence upon solid empire borders in a 4X space game
 
2021-03-08 3:45:53 PM  

mrmopar5287: Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week

They don't do that. It's 7 days on, 7 days off. OT doesn't start until you pass 80 hours in the two-week pay period.


I'm curious who would want to work that schedule? As a salaried slave, I didn't have any choice but to work as many as 100 hours in a week at times. No overtime for me, of course. But an hourly employee? So you get a week off in exchange for living at the plant the previous week in exchange for mostly straight time pay? Screw that.
 
2021-03-08 4:44:34 PM  

The Thoroughbred of Sin: Northern: Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week, they can afford to double the amount of workers.
Or they'll have half the staff in three weeks and they'll have everyone working 168 hour weeks and charging them rent.

Not if they have pensions and lifetime health/dental contracts in retirement.  Each employee could easily run well above $1M per year.  The overtime costs are relatively cheap in comparison.
The union could give up these benefits, take a 401k, and go on medicare in retirement, then the company might hire a second shift.  Might.

A million a year per retiree? What kind of nonsense is that? Did you mean a million per retiree lifetime? That is a more reasonable statement.


It sounds insane.
This is an FTE number taken directly from my town's official numbers.  For every employee there are several retirees who receive what is essentially salary and cadillac benefits for them and their spouses for life.  It's a relic from before Reagan and given the cost of health insurance today it's easy to see why it costs so much.  And yeah my property tax goes up on average 8% per year largely to cover health insurance premium increases and unfortunate pension shortfalls.
The reason most businesses don't see this is that their (non-union) employees receive generous government subsidies for health insurance which include ACA premium assistance, medicare, and medicaid.
I think it's a fair comparison.  Auto makers have if anything higher facilities costs than a local government, and wages are probably similar.
 
2021-03-08 5:36:56 PM  

Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week, they can afford to double the amount of workers.
Or they'll have half the staff in three weeks and they'll have everyone working 168 hour weeks and charging them rent.


Hm, I think the overtime is per pay period, not per week, so there are 4 overtime hours there...
 
2021-03-08 5:53:31 PM  

majestic: I'm curious who would want to work that schedule?


At my job there is such a thing as a "Flexible Work Schedule," though the thing I do does not qualify for it. Basically, you can flex your schedule to whenever you want, and as long as you get your work done and get your 80 hours clocked in the pay period, you're done. On this type of schedule, OT only starts after 80 hours in the pay period.

For people who want to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and their boss and job performance allows it, it's fine.
 
2021-03-08 6:00:58 PM  

electricjebus: have a fourth and fifth shift on 12 hour days for the weekends... but that's expensive


I can't say this was a factory. It was a shiatty machine shop I worked at. They offered an option for people who wanted it: 12 hour days on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. They worked 36 hours, were paid for 40, and if there was a need they could be held over an hour or two on each day to work some "overtime" that wasn't paid as overtime unless their total hour count passed 40 hours. In exchange for this, they got Monday through Thursday as their days off.

Quite a few people volunteered for this.
 
2021-03-08 9:10:10 PM  

mrmopar5287: Catlenfell: If they can afford to pay 44 hours of overtime a week

They don't do that. It's 7 days on, 7 days off. OT doesn't start until you pass 80 hours in the two-week pay period.


Federal law is over 40 per week, which is 7 days Monday through Sunday. Not pay period.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/overt​ime#:~:text=The%20federal%20overtime%2​0provisions%20are,their%20regular%20ra​tes%20of%20pay.
 
2021-03-08 9:41:05 PM  

mrmopar5287: electricjebus: have a fourth and fifth shift on 12 hour days for the weekends... but that's expensive

I can't say this was a factory. It was a shiatty machine shop I worked at. They offered an option for people who wanted it: 12 hour days on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. They worked 36 hours, were paid for 40, and if there was a need they could be held over an hour or two on each day to work some "overtime" that wasn't paid as overtime unless their total hour count passed 40 hours. In exchange for this, they got Monday through Thursday as their days off.

Quite a few people volunteered for this.


Yeah, we're trying to do something similar at my factory, demand for our product has blown up during the pandemic.  The problem is that we're struggling to man 3 shifts at the moment, and supply issues keep shutting us down.

Like many others, my factory moved out of the city and into the country decades ago, they were chasing lower prevailing wages... It's biting us in the ass now that we need more workers than the town we're located in currently has available.
 
2021-03-08 10:58:53 PM  
Why is this legal?

We have record unemployment and Stellantis opts to pay 44 hours of overtime per employee until they drop dead instead of hiring additional employees.

Why don't company executives fear draconian fines and prison time?
 
2021-03-08 11:12:17 PM  

electricjebus: mrmopar5287: electricjebus: have a fourth and fifth shift on 12 hour days for the weekends... but that's expensive

I can't say this was a factory. It was a shiatty machine shop I worked at. They offered an option for people who wanted it: 12 hour days on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. They worked 36 hours, were paid for 40, and if there was a need they could be held over an hour or two on each day to work some "overtime" that wasn't paid as overtime unless their total hour count passed 40 hours. In exchange for this, they got Monday through Thursday as their days off.

Quite a few people volunteered for this.

Yeah, we're trying to do something similar at my factory, demand for our product has blown up during the pandemic.  The problem is that we're struggling to man 3 shifts at the moment, and supply issues keep shutting us down.

Like many others, my factory moved out of the city and into the country decades ago, they were chasing lower prevailing wages... It's biting us in the ass now that we need more workers than the town we're located in currently has available.


Implement a shuttle between the nearest sizable city and the factory.
 
2021-03-09 2:53:40 AM  

Bruscar: Why is this legal?

We have record unemployment and Stellantis opts to pay 44 hours of overtime per employee until they drop dead instead of hiring additional employees.

Why don't company executives fear draconian fines and prison time?


This is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how manufacturing facilities treat workers.  Especially in the automotive industry (non-union, that is, which is what most plants are).
 
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