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(ITV)   First Minister of Wales declares the United Kingdom "over". At least that's what people think he said, but it's hard to tell from under a barrage of phlegm   (itv.com) divider line
    More: Awkward, United Kingdom, Wales, Mr Drakeford, Mark Drakeford, Welsh Affairs Committee, break-up of the UK, European Union, Prime Minister  
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1061 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Mar 2021 at 6:50 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-03-05 11:23:12 AM  
Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...
 
2021-03-05 1:21:56 PM  

iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...


I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....
 
2021-03-05 4:20:17 PM  

b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....


Stupid independent autonomous Flanders....
 
2021-03-05 5:02:35 PM  

b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....


If the UK were in the EU, there's a good argument that had Indyref 1 succeeded, Spain would have vetoed an independent Scotland joining because of those reasons.

The UK is not in the EU, so that argument doesn't apply. Plus, in 2018, Spain's foreign minister said they would not oppose an independent Scotland joining:
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Spain would have no objection to Scotland rejoining the European Union as an independent nation, as long as the secession process from the United Kingdom was legally binding, Spanish foreign minister Josep Borrell said on Tuesday.
 
2021-03-05 5:50:19 PM  
I was talking to a Northern Ireland resident recently, and he was betting on a reunited Ireland soonish.
 
2021-03-05 6:52:13 PM  
Welsh isn't phlegmy. It's got this weird uprising lilt and lots of Ls and Ws.
 
2021-03-05 6:52:16 PM  
Bye Felicia.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-03-05 6:54:24 PM  

b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....


Good. I'm all for letting historically separate areas be separate. If your area has a whole different language then maybe you should have your own government
 
2021-03-05 6:55:21 PM  
i.chzbgr.comView Full Size


i.imgur.comView Full Size


... it all kinda sorta makes sense now.
 
2021-03-05 7:07:30 PM  

b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....


Other than the fact that Scotland was actually a separate country that joined with England under a law that they are allowed to leave, sure.
 
2021-03-05 7:09:09 PM  
Whatever he said probably was more understandable in the original Klingon.
 
2021-03-05 7:09:43 PM  
backend.countryballs.netView Full Size
 
2021-03-05 7:10:18 PM  

redmid17: b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....

Other than the fact that Scotland was actually a separate country that joined with England under a law that they are allowed to leave, sure.


Several of those places were independent countries and Bavarian independence is about as popular according to polls as Scottish independence prior to Brexit.
 
2021-03-05 7:11:23 PM  
There's nothing phlegmatic about the Welsh, smitty.
 
2021-03-05 7:12:25 PM  

ace in your face: b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....

Good. I'm all for letting historically separate areas be separate. If your area has a whole different language then maybe you should have your own government


Good riddance to Quebec!
 
2021-03-05 7:18:55 PM  

UltimaCS: ace in your face: b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....

Good. I'm all for letting historically separate areas be separate. If your area has a whole different language then maybe you should have your own government

Good riddance to Quebec!


Vive la liberté
 
2021-03-05 7:25:16 PM  
I think the First Minister is dead right in this case. There's nothing inherently wrong about the UK as a bloc, but the idea that the "federal" government is effectively a "state" government too and also gets to arbitrarily dissolve the other "state" governments is nuts. I'm not even against England having outsized influence over the coalition, but their system is terrible.
 
2021-03-05 7:29:19 PM  

b2theory: redmid17: b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....

Other than the fact that Scotland was actually a separate country that joined with England under a law that they are allowed to leave, sure.

Several of those places were independent countries and Bavarian independence is about as popular according to polls as Scottish independence prior to Brexit.


Countries? From a modern legal standpoint that's debatable. But that's irrelevant since they lack a legal mechanism to separate.
 
2021-03-05 7:30:49 PM  

OptimisticCynicism: I think the First Minister is dead right in this case. There's nothing inherently wrong about the UK as a bloc, but the idea that the "federal" government is effectively a "state" government too and also gets to arbitrarily dissolve the other "state" governments is nuts. I'm not even against England having outsized influence over the coalition, but their system is terrible.


There is no constitutional argument where Wales and England are disunited.
 
2021-03-05 7:35:02 PM  

redmid17: b2theory: redmid17: b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....

Other than the fact that Scotland was actually a separate country that joined with England under a law that they are allowed to leave, sure.

Several of those places were independent countries and Bavarian independence is about as popular according to polls as Scottish independence prior to Brexit.

Countries? From a modern legal standpoint that's debatable. But that's irrelevant since they lack a legal mechanism to separate.


Bavaria was a country more recently than Scotland. Doesn't Parliament have to authorize another referendum?
 
2021-03-05 7:37:34 PM  
Yes. Consolidating power in a few people is depotism, and it is extremely weak. Even monarchs always use bureaucracies.
 
2021-03-05 7:43:22 PM  
Who didn't see this coming?  Brexiters, I guess, although even that's a "maybe".
 
2021-03-05 7:46:55 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I think the First Minister is dead right in this case. There's nothing inherently wrong about the UK as a bloc, but the idea that the "federal" government is effectively a "state" government too and also gets to arbitrarily dissolve the other "state" governments is nuts. I'm not even against England having outsized influence over the coalition, but their system is terrible.

There is no constitutional argument where Wales and England are disunited.


I'm not strictly following your point.

Do you mean they are entirely aligned politically, or that the clusterfark that is the unwritten constitution doesn't allow it?
 
2021-03-05 7:52:14 PM  

OptimisticCynicism: PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I think the First Minister is dead right in this case. There's nothing inherently wrong about the UK as a bloc, but the idea that the "federal" government is effectively a "state" government too and also gets to arbitrarily dissolve the other "state" governments is nuts. I'm not even against England having outsized influence over the coalition, but their system is terrible.

There is no constitutional argument where Wales and England are disunited.

I'm not strictly following your point.

Do you mean they are entirely aligned politically, or that the clusterfark that is the unwritten constitution doesn't allow it?


You're not even randomly following my point.
 
2021-03-05 8:07:21 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I think the First Minister is dead right in this case. There's nothing inherently wrong about the UK as a bloc, but the idea that the "federal" government is effectively a "state" government too and also gets to arbitrarily dissolve the other "state" governments is nuts. I'm not even against England having outsized influence over the coalition, but their system is terrible.

There is no constitutional argument where Wales and England are disunited.

I'm not strictly following your point.

Do you mean they are entirely aligned politically, or that the clusterfark that is the unwritten constitution doesn't allow it?

You're not even randomly following my point.


Must be a pretty shiatty point then, huh? I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K. and that those in power better intigrated with the English Parliament(which is why it was The War of the Three Kingdoms not Four). I'm also aware of the absurd primacy of the English Parliament when it comes to the U.K.

However I'm also aware that devolution is somewhat required for good governance. There was no consitutional mechanism for the American Colonies leaving the English Empire. There was no constitutional mechanism for Scots signing the National Covenant. Both happened(successfully). Those kind of pressures exist in any country and it is better to have a release valve(like granting statehood as the U.S. should for Puerto Rico) instead of seeing the creative way that pressure will escape.
 
2021-03-05 8:10:31 PM  

b2theory: redmid17: b2theory: redmid17: b2theory: iheartscotch: Wales and Scotland declaring independence and joining the EU? More likely than you think...

I hear plenty of people say that. I feel like that would open a giant can of worms for the EU with respect to Catalonia, Basque Country, Flanders, Bavaria, Sicily.....

Other than the fact that Scotland was actually a separate country that joined with England under a law that they are allowed to leave, sure.

Several of those places were independent countries and Bavarian independence is about as popular according to polls as Scottish independence prior to Brexit.

Countries? From a modern legal standpoint that's debatable. But that's irrelevant since they lack a legal mechanism to separate.

Bavaria was a country more recently than Scotland. Doesn't Parliament have to authorize another referendum?


Possibly. There's still a question as to whether or not Scotland Wales or NI could leave the UK unilaterally that might need to hit the courts but kinda taking a backseat to the fact that Scotland has already held a recognized vote to keep the union or leave
 
2021-03-05 8:13:04 PM  
Is weinidog what I think it is?
 
2021-03-05 8:13:55 PM  

OptimisticCynicism: I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K.


Wales is a country, but not a kingdom. It's a principality. England never unified with Wales.
 
2021-03-05 8:15:51 PM  
I don't see Spain or any of the localized independence movements being a big obstacle to Scotland going back to the EU. Wales is perhaps more of an issue, but I think they could go as well. Brexit is really bad and won't get worse, especially if they decide to keep a Tory leadership.

For the EU, it's a feather in their cap, each one, but really the big score is the financial industry. Likely there will be a hub or two elsewhere, as London drains of capital, but placing more and more offices -- talking about Goldman, Credit Suisse, Morgan Stanley, whatever -- in English-speaking cities like Edinburgh, Glasgow, Cardiff, has to be enormously appealing.
 
2021-03-05 8:16:29 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K.

Wales is a country, but not a kingdom. It's a principality. England never unified with Wales.


Edward I would like to differ
 
2021-03-05 8:17:42 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: I don't see Spain or any of the localized independence movements being a big obstacle to Scotland going back to the EU. Wales is perhaps more of an issue, but I think they could go as well. Brexit is really bad and won't get worse, especially if they decide to keep a Tory leadership.

For the EU, it's a feather in their cap, each one, but really the big score is the financial industry. Likely there will be a hub or two elsewhere, as London drains of capital, but placing more and more offices -- talking about Goldman, Credit Suisse, Morgan Stanley, whatever -- in English-speaking cities like Edinburgh, Glasgow, Cardiff, has to be enormously appealing.


Most Euro english speek. But end of day Dublin ok.
 
2021-03-05 8:20:13 PM  

Ken VeryBigLiar: PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K.

Wales is a country, but not a kingdom. It's a principality. England never unified with Wales.

Edward I would like to differ


I bet he would. But he didn't actually make the change. No King of Wales. Again: a mere principality.

Occupied territory, if you will.
 
2021-03-05 8:27:34 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: Ken VeryBigLiar: PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K.

Wales is a country, but not a kingdom. It's a principality. England never unified with Wales.

Edward I would like to differ

I bet he would. But he didn't actually make the change. No King of Wales. Again: a mere principality.

Occupied territory, if you will.


I could be wrong but part of his reasoning was that since King of the Welsh was so devalued that Prince of Wales became the primary title of the land and thus a King was needed to guide those wacky Welshman.
 
2021-03-05 8:33:17 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: Ken VeryBigLiar: PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K.

Wales is a country, but not a kingdom. It's a principality. England never unified with Wales.

Edward I would like to differ

I bet he would. But he didn't actually make the change. No King of Wales. Again: a mere principality.

Occupied territory, if you will.


Per wiki:  John Davies states that Gruffydd was "the only Welsh king ever to rule over the entire territory of Wales... Thus, from about 1057 until his death in 1063, the whole of Wales recognised the kingship of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn. For about seven brief years, Wales was one, under one ruler, a feat with neither precedent nor successor."[
 
2021-03-05 8:35:12 PM  

OptimisticCynicism: PartTimeBuddha: Ken VeryBigLiar: PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K.

Wales is a country, but not a kingdom. It's a principality. England never unified with Wales.

Edward I would like to differ

I bet he would. But he didn't actually make the change. No King of Wales. Again: a mere principality.

Occupied territory, if you will.

Per wiki:  John Davies states that Gruffydd was "the only Welsh king ever to rule over the entire territory of Wales... Thus, from about 1057 until his death in 1063, the whole of Wales recognised the kingship of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn. For about seven brief years, Wales was one, under one ruler, a feat with neither precedent nor successor."[


Idk pretty sure that there are a few dozen British monarchs who'd disagree
 
2021-03-05 8:41:37 PM  

redmid17: OptimisticCynicism: PartTimeBuddha: Ken VeryBigLiar: PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K.

Wales is a country, but not a kingdom. It's a principality. England never unified with Wales.

Edward I would like to differ

I bet he would. But he didn't actually make the change. No King of Wales. Again: a mere principality.

Occupied territory, if you will.

Per wiki:  John Davies states that Gruffydd was "the only Welsh king ever to rule over the entire territory of Wales... Thus, from about 1057 until his death in 1063, the whole of Wales recognised the kingship of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn. For about seven brief years, Wales was one, under one ruler, a feat with neither precedent nor successor."[

Idk pretty sure that there are a few dozen British monarchs who'd disagree


British Monarchs were never a "Welsh" King.

More importantly, the whole "kingdom versus "mere principality" argument" is bollocks because people name their rulers different things. It also has nothing to do with my original response. Wales is most definitely a "nation-state" and is royally screwed by the U.K. "can't amend it cause it isn't a written consitution!" governance system.
 
2021-03-05 8:48:34 PM  

OptimisticCynicism: redmid17: OptimisticCynicism: PartTimeBuddha: Ken VeryBigLiar: PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K.

Wales is a country, but not a kingdom. It's a principality. England never unified with Wales.

Edward I would like to differ

I bet he would. But he didn't actually make the change. No King of Wales. Again: a mere principality.

Occupied territory, if you will.

Per wiki:  John Davies states that Gruffydd was "the only Welsh king ever to rule over the entire territory of Wales... Thus, from about 1057 until his death in 1063, the whole of Wales recognised the kingship of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn. For about seven brief years, Wales was one, under one ruler, a feat with neither precedent nor successor."[

Idk pretty sure that there are a few dozen British monarchs who'd disagree

British Monarchs were never a "Welsh" King.

More importantly, the whole "kingdom versus "mere principality" argument" is bollocks because people name their rulers different things. It also has nothing to do with my original response. Wales is most definitely a "nation-state" and is royally screwed by the U.K. "can't amend it cause it isn't a written consitution!" governance system.


Glossing over the fact that those monarchs were most definitely Kings of Wales, several of them were partially Welsh. So again literally Welsh kings ruling over Wales
 
2021-03-05 8:50:54 PM  

OptimisticCynicism: I think the First Minister is dead right in this case. There's nothing inherently wrong about the UK as a bloc, but the idea that the "federal" government is effectively a "state" government too and also gets to arbitrarily dissolve the other "state" governments is nuts. I'm not even against England having outsized influence over the coalition, but their system is terrible.


I think the First Minister is dead, period.  He'd have to be hundreds of years old by now, right?  They have to be on their 40th or 50th Minister by now.
 
2021-03-05 8:52:05 PM  

OptimisticCynicism: PartTimeBuddha: Ken VeryBigLiar: PartTimeBuddha: OptimisticCynicism: I'm aware that the Union between England and Wales predates the U.K.

Wales is a country, but not a kingdom. It's a principality. England never unified with Wales.

Edward I would like to differ

I bet he would. But he didn't actually make the change. No King of Wales. Again: a mere principality.

Occupied territory, if you will.

Per wiki:  John Davies states that Gruffydd was "the only Welsh king ever to rule over the entire territory of Wales... Thus, from about 1057 until his death in 1063, the whole of Wales recognised the kingship of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn. For about seven brief years, Wales was one, under one ruler, a feat with neither precedent nor successor."[


The wiki page for King of the Britons is quite interesting. Because, of course, the Britons were forced west by immigrant caravans of Angles, Saxons and then the Normans. Someone really should do something about all these ruddy immigrants.

The last King of Wales, per that article, was Owain Gwynedd, but there's a bit of a linguistic technicality in there too. Because (and I've just learned this too, and think it's kinda spiffy) the modern Welsh for a prince is tywysog, but it was less specific in the past, and referred to a broader category of leaders.

The cognate in Irish, taoiseach, is the title of Ireland's PM, and in Scots Gaelic, a tòiseach is a clan chief, and the root of the name MacIntosh.

/TMYK, indeed.
 
2021-03-05 8:52:17 PM  
Finally my people will be free of the English. I'm sick of the woman keeping me down.
 
2021-03-05 8:56:40 PM  
Load of cobblers!  Do you think we want to end up like the SCOTTISH?   Wales voted FOR Brexit!  The finest Welsh Nationialist we had was the politician and astronomer Phil Williams, chairman of Plaid Cymru.   He died in a brothel just round the corner from where I live, and all the girls said he was a gentleman.  In fact, a number of them attended his funeral.  CYMRY AM BYTH.
 
2021-03-05 9:25:15 PM  

Gloucester: Load of cobblers!  Do you think we want to end up like the SCOTTISH?   Wales voted FOR Brexit!  The finest Welsh Nationialist we had was the politician and astronomer Phil Williams, chairman of Plaid Cymru.   He died in a brothel just round the corner from where I live, and all the girls said he was a gentleman.  In fact, a number of them attended his funeral.  CYMRY AM BYTH.


Bless him. He was spending a large amount of time with prostitutes, just like Jesus.
 
2021-03-05 9:33:29 PM  

iron de havilland: The wiki page for King of the Britons is quite interesting.


Though it doesn't say much about the violence inherent in the system.
 
2021-03-05 9:37:28 PM  

Thor's Mighty Wrench: iron de havilland: The wiki page for King of the Britons is quite interesting.

Though it doesn't say much about the violence inherent in the system.


You have to drill down a bit to find out the details of watery tarts lobbing scimitars at people.
 
2021-03-05 10:15:56 PM  
No one is mentioning Liechtenstein -- a principality with an interesting relationship with Switzerland -- even the highway system is shared.  Same with the channel islands and the British crown -- various shared and various separate rules and identities.

It's almost like there are infinite layers of statehood and sovereignty.  Treaties that determine the economic and commercial relationship more than the color of the flags are most important.

Brexit seems to have failed at the treaty part.
 
2021-03-05 10:27:22 PM  

BitwiseShift: No one is mentioning Liechtenstein -- a principality with an interesting relationship with Switzerland -- even the highway system is shared.  Same with the channel islands and the British crown -- various shared and various separate rules and identities.

It's almost like there are infinite layers of statehood and sovereignty.  Treaties that determine the economic and commercial relationship more than the color of the flags are most important.

Brexit seems to have failed at the treaty part.


If you use the crown prince's name again in Fark you'll pay with your teeth (since I will report you as a jerk to their banking system).
 
2021-03-06 12:15:06 AM  
metropolitics.orgView Full Size
 
2021-03-06 12:17:02 AM  
Ireland (both of it), Scotland, Mann, and Scotland should join together in some United Insular Celtic state.   England can stew in it's own juices.

Maybe Cornwall, too.
 
2021-03-06 1:21:23 AM  

namegoeshere: I was talking to a Northern Ireland resident recently, and he was betting on a reunited Ireland soonish.


Three years. Five for Scotland .
 
2021-03-06 3:55:05 AM  

Dewey Fidalgo: Ireland (both of it), Scotland, Mann, and Scotland should join together in some United Insular Celtic state.   England can stew in it's own juices.

Maybe Cornwall, too.


You said rape Scotland  twice
 
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