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(Washington Post)   No. It's time to dissolve it. Or absent that get people to vote. Oh yeah. On second thought, just dissolve it   (washingtonpost.com) divider line
    More: Murica, United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, oldest person, Ageing, Patrick Leahy, Gerontology, vintage Sens. Charles E. Grassley, Dianne Feinstein  
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3454 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Mar 2021 at 8:15 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-03-03 1:45:46 PM  
Add DC and Puerto Rico

/ do it
 
2021-03-03 2:41:51 PM  
Term limits? Might as well talk about the bill that I'm trying to pass mandating that Gal Gadot star in more movies.
 
2021-03-03 2:42:39 PM  

AlgaeRancher: Add DC and Puerto Rico

/ do it


If they don't, we're all gonna regret not doing it.
 
2021-03-03 7:39:07 PM  
Congress doesn't do shiat anyway. You don't need to be youthful to run out your time reading Green Eggs and Ham.
 
2021-03-03 7:52:09 PM  
IMO, there should be a cap of 12 years in Congress total - both Senate and House.  That way someone won't switch between houses.  It forces change over and keeps things from stagnating.
 
2021-03-03 8:00:47 PM  

SpaceyCat: IMO, there should be a cap of 12 years in Congress total - both Senate and House.  That way someone won't switch between houses.  It forces change over and keeps things from stagnating.


They have no incentive to do that. They might have to get real jobs if that happened. I don't think that even K Street can support THAT many lobbyists.
 
2021-03-03 8:16:31 PM  
Term limits are a bad idea. Still.
 
2021-03-03 8:19:27 PM  

iheartscotch: SpaceyCat: IMO, there should be a cap of 12 years in Congress total - both Senate and House.  That way someone won't switch between houses.  It forces change over and keeps things from stagnating. They have no incentive to do that. They might have to get real jobs if that happened. I don't think that even K Street can support THAT many lobbyists.


No, I think they totally have a reason to impose term limits on themselves.

I don't know. I don't support age discrimination. I also don't support people sleeping, sitting on their foot long ball sacks reading Green Eggs and Ham to run out their time on the tax payer's dime.

There are other jobs that require periodic cognitive tests to determine if they're still eligible but the political nature of the job and and it's sort of subjective, I dunno. Maybe stop bring assholes would be good.
 
2021-03-03 8:22:03 PM  
How about actual ethics statutes with brutal penalties that are unerringly enforced? And yearly financial audits, for everyone. Make laws real again.
 
2021-03-03 8:24:30 PM  
I am all for something along the lines of term limits, you just have to be careful that you don't end up with a bunch of no-nothings in Congress. When the "tea party" jammed a bunch of newbies in office they accomplished zero (thank God) other than wasting taxpayer money, because they had no clue how the office and legislation worked. If you're going to institute something like this, I'd like to see them add requirements of serving in other smaller/local offices of public service first.

/do the same or similar for POTUS
 
2021-03-03 8:24:49 PM  
Term limits may be a problem, as lobbyists don't. So the experienced special interest groups have more experience and leverage than the constantly new Congress people.

I would lean more for comprehensive financial election reform. Get the money out of politics, and that would hopefully prevent a lot of these issues.
 
2021-03-03 8:26:51 PM  
officer. Caught Sayov reports
 
2021-03-03 8:27:11 PM  
All term limits would do is encourage reps to tee up legislation that is friendly to whatever industry they hope to join once their term is up.
 
2021-03-03 8:28:32 PM  
Eliminate the Senate would be great, but it literally requires all 50 states to vote yes to eliminating the senate. it's the only provision in the constitution that takes 100% support to amend. 

While we're at it eliminate congressional districts and move to proportional representation, ranked choice voting, and up the number of house reps.
 
2021-03-03 8:29:57 PM  
Term limits are fixing the wrong problem. Get rid of the anti-democratic Senate before it's too late and expand the House.

The people don't have representation in the Senate, land does. It's an outdated institution which was the result of compromises with slave holding states.

It did fine for a while but now the inequities of the representation there are far too great. Adding DC and PR is a stop gap and not a good one at that.

The 47 Senators who voted to impeach represented over 14 million more Americans than did the 53 who voted not too. When you represent over ten million more people and you have a six vote gap not in your favor something is wrong.

fark the Senate.
 
2021-03-03 8:31:38 PM  

Dictatorial_Flair: How about actual ethics statutes with brutal penalties that are unerringly enforced? And yearly financial audits, for everyone. Make laws real again.


That's too divisive.
 
2021-03-03 8:32:31 PM  
Effective way to make the point, putting a photo of a sun bleached mummy in a suit at the top of the page like that.
 
2021-03-03 8:33:00 PM  
Of course we should get rid of the Senate.  It's an explicitly anti-democratic institution that exists to prevent the uppity lower-classes from actually influencing policy or upsetting the status quo.

And hells, with the size-cap the House is an anti-democratic institution too.

It's almost as if a government designed by wealthy slave owners primarily concerned with protecting their own power and privilege isn't appropriate in the modern world, regardless of how many pretty words they put in the press releases and marketing materials.
 
2021-03-03 8:33:40 PM  
For many people, ceasing to work feels like ceasing to be.

Heh. Not me, baby. After having been retired for several years now I'm happier than I was when working. I can stay up all night now (and do) and not worry about having to be somewhere, far off hear all day if I want to (and do), jump in my truck and go somewhere (I'm now a big fan of taking random country roads) whenever I want.

It's the freedom I like. Since I live alone I am free to do whatever I want whenever I want. I did a lot of going to movies and dining out pre-covid and that will be coming back eventually.

But my job was not my life. It was a paycheck and a pension. I enjoyed my time when I was there as much as possible but it was a means to an end. I'm not filthy rich but I will never go homeless or hungry either.

/retired at 62
 
2021-03-03 8:33:54 PM  
external-content.duckduckgo.comView Full Size


Approves of dissolution
 
2021-03-03 8:34:07 PM  
Approves of dissolving the Senate...
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-03-03 8:34:13 PM  
A reminder that term limits are a very bad, no good idea.

Its an idea dumb people float to look smart. The only beneficiaries would be lobbyists and the corporations that own them.

/they're also undemocratic
//imagine a senate filled with people willing to say whatever it takes to get elected and earn their spot in the revolving door
///Madison Cawthorns all the way down
 
2021-03-03 8:36:32 PM  

iheartscotch: AlgaeRancher: Add DC and Puerto Rico

/ do it

If they don't, we're all gonna regret not doing it.


Our children might regret us doing it though. One reason the Senate is farked up right now is because of short-sighted shenanigans with adding states in the 1800s. The only reason North and South Dakota are separate states is because Republicans (who were the progressive party at the time) wanted extra Senators.
 
2021-03-03 8:36:43 PM  
As I see it, one of the biggest problems in the Senate are the fossilized Senators. the ones who have been there way too long. A term limit in Congress of 24 years would get rid of the old farts who have stayed way past their usefulness but still allow people enough time to become proficient at the job.
 
2021-03-03 8:38:06 PM  
nah just add some more based on population, its stupid cali has 2 senators and 40 million people
 
2021-03-03 8:39:12 PM  
term limits aren't really a cure for any of the problems we have. We have bigger fish to fry in terms of reform.
 
2021-03-03 8:39:19 PM  
Since dissolving the Senate is unfortunately a pipe dream, states which are net recipients of federal dollars should have only one of their two senators' votes count in deciding legislation.
 
2021-03-03 8:43:20 PM  

TofuTheAlmighty: Since dissolving the Senate is unfortunately a pipe dream, states which are net recipients of federal dollars should have only one of their two senators' votes count in deciding legislation.


Yeah, that's totally not a pipe dream
 
2021-03-03 8:43:50 PM  
Term limits are a horrible idea. hell i want the presidents term limits appealed.
 
2021-03-03 8:46:10 PM  
If we have term limits, then the lobbies become more powerful.  they will recruit people and get them elected because they will have the expericence new members lack.  we will also lose great people, like aoc, ted leu, etc. and get more shiat heads like the two q anon air heads.  no, term limits are a stupid idea.
 
2021-03-03 8:46:51 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-03-03 8:48:07 PM  
I'll give up Feinstein if Grassley heads for the exit.
 
2021-03-03 8:48:13 PM  
 
2021-03-03 8:48:15 PM  

iheartscotch: Term limits? Might as well talk about the bill that I'm trying to pass mandating that Gal Gadot star in more movies.


If they don't pass that were all going to regret not doing it while we had the chance.

Yes I mean your gal gadot idea.
 
2021-03-03 8:48:16 PM  
No term limits ever on any elected office. Democracy means the voters decide to 'limit' a term by voting people out.
 
2021-03-03 8:48:41 PM  

Tman144: iheartscotch: AlgaeRancher: Add DC and Puerto Rico

/ do it

If they don't, we're all gonna regret not doing it.

Our children might regret us doing it though. One reason the Senate is farked up right now is because of short-sighted shenanigans with adding states in the 1800s. The only reason North and South Dakota are separate states is because Republicans (who were the progressive party at the time) wanted extra Senators.


I wonder if you can se how giving citizens a voice in national politics that they didn't previously have might be different than dividing a territory into two states to get more senators.
 
2021-03-03 8:48:46 PM  
But these jobs require a day-in, day-out stamina that many people in their 60s and 70s would struggle to sustain.

Bullshiat. Interesting work is self-sustaining, it rouses the spirit. This is like telling old people not to have sex because their bodies are ugly.


Dictatorial_Flair: How about actual ethics statutes with brutal penalties that are unerringly enforced? And yearly financial audits, for everyone. Make laws real again.


There's an idea. Anti-corruption laws would go a long way in weeding out those in it just for power and money. And it would drive those out of touch out of office because how can you care about a cause (other than yourself) if you're not plugged in.

Lust for power tends to grow with age mostly because it's the only vice you can indulge in not limited by physiology. Welding power onto doing something productive would cut a lot of those bastards out. Plus you could set dinner time to 8 p.m. or later.
 
2021-03-03 8:48:47 PM  

feltrider: A reminder that term limits are a very bad, no good idea.

Its an idea dumb people float to look smart. The only beneficiaries would be lobbyists and the corporations that own them.

/they're also undemocratic
//imagine a senate filled with people willing to say whatever it takes to get elected and earn their spot in the revolving door
///Madison Cawthorns all the way down


Counterpoint: all the people that didn't show a spine against Trump until they knew they were done.
 
2021-03-03 8:48:55 PM  

iheartscotch: Term limits? Might as well talk about the bill that I'm trying to pass mandating that Gal Gadot star in more movies.


And also: what is term limits supposed to solve, precisely? I get that people don't like 97 year old lunatics serving in the Senate like Feinstein and Grassley, but there are plenty of examples of old idiots being replaced by young idiots. The problem isn't that the Senate is old, it is that it is undemocratic and unrepresentative of the voters.
 
2021-03-03 8:50:36 PM  
I was saying this the entire 15 years I lived in Seattle.  Patty Murray and Cantwell are poster children for term limits.

/I'm a liberal
//have to mention this anytime I say something critical about Seattle politics.
 
2021-03-03 8:50:36 PM  

Kazan: Eliminate the Senate would be great, but it literally requires all 50 states to vote yes to eliminating the senate. it's the only provision in the constitution that takes 100% support to amend.
While we're at it eliminate congressional districts and move to proportional representation, ranked choice voting, and up the number of house reps.

This. I was about to post my usual about how Article Ⅴ of the Constitution forbids even an Amendment from either changing the Senate to be anything other than equal suffrage per state (population gets no say), or abolishing it entirely, either directly or indirectly with a series of Amendments (such as one to remove that restriction from Article Ⅴ). The way it's written now would require a unanimous approval, since it says that the states can't be denied their equal representation without their consent, but if any do consent and their representation is removed or reduced or otherwise changed then it's no longer equal suffrage, so all of them would have to agree.

The only other way to do it would be a full-on Constitutional Convention to repeal the entire Constitution, from "We the People" through Article ⅖ inclusive and the signatures, and replace it with a brand-spanking new one. That'd only require ⅔ of the states, but the problem is, they're the ones who are a lot closer to that goal than we are. We lost a state legislature (NH) to full GOP control (both chambers were Democratic, now both are GOP) this past election, bringing them to 31, just three shy of the 34 needed for a ⅔ supermajority. They gained eleven in the 2010 midterms, so we could lose the Constitution itself in just two years if we don't focus on state legislatures in 2022. I can assure you that nobody here except Alien Robot and that ilk would like what their new Constitution would have.
 
2021-03-03 8:51:01 PM  

AlgaeRancher: Add DC and Puerto Rico

/ do it


DC is definitely +2D...  PR is probably +2R.  Look at PR's elected folks.  Hispanic does not mean D.  Unless it is +DC + PR -ND -SD -MT +Northern tier state, adding those two doesn't make much sense.
 
2021-03-03 8:51:34 PM  

GlenninSac: I'll give up Feinstein if Grassley heads for the exit.


Thats not a valid term limit argument, Fienstein was great for many years, even as recently as 10 years ago.  The issue with her is more age, i dont believe she should have run again 2 years ago. and i think she needs to retire this term.  they should have better limits for either age or medical conditions to remove unfit senators, but i mean turtle is great for ky... sad to say, but he does funnel money there in support of his state.

the senate needs a huge ethics reform though.
 
2021-03-03 8:51:37 PM  
We don't want or need term limits, we want and need better candidates for office. Term limits won't accomplish that. For every useless carcass like Difi they kick out they make space for another lunatic like mtg until we actually improve campaign laws and frankly public education. People always see term limits as a magic wand to get rid of other people's reps that they don't like.
 
2021-03-03 8:51:46 PM  

SpaceyCat: IMO, there should be a cap of 12 years in Congress total - both Senate and House.  That way someone won't switch between houses.  It forces change over and keeps things from stagnating.


I don't care one way or other about your proposal, but it won't change a damn thing.

Of the Senators running in 2022, 13 were elected less than 12 years ago and 21 were elected more than 12 years ago. Big whoop.
 
2021-03-03 8:53:38 PM  

qorkfiend: TofuTheAlmighty: Since dissolving the Senate is unfortunately a pipe dream, states which are net recipients of federal dollars should have only one of their two senators' votes count in deciding legislation.

Yeah, that's totally not a pipe dream

Right. The restriction in Article Ⅴ is against denying any state its equal suffrage in the Senate. So even removing the voting power from a State's Senator(s) would violate that, and not even an Amendment can do that. It's the one and only remaining restriction on what even an Amendment can do (the others sunset in 1804).

An Amendment could abolish the Presidency, Vice President, change the Vice President to not be President of the Senate, abolish the entire Executive Branch, abolish the House of Representatives, and the Supreme Court and the entire Judicial Branch, but not the Senate. That one is off-limits so long as the Constitution of 1877 exists at all.
 
2021-03-03 8:53:45 PM  
Age limits. They have them on the low end, they also need them on the high end. A person who won't ever have to live with the consequences of their actions has no business writing policy.
 
2021-03-03 8:54:24 PM  

Kazan: Eliminate the Senate would be great, but it literally requires all 50 states to vote yes to eliminating the senate. it's the only provision in the constitution that takes 100% support to amend. 

While we're at it eliminate congressional districts and move to proportional representation, ranked choice voting, and up the number of house reps.


Newsletter?

The idea that it takes 100% support to remove the Senate is not accurate. The clause in question is far from clear, and may have already expired, depending on interpretation. Even if it has not expired, the clause you reference itself is amendable, so any amendment changing the composition of the Senate, or to eliminate the Senate, just has to also repeal that clause.

The latter of your three proposals do not require Constitutional amendments, btw.
 
2021-03-03 8:55:41 PM  

Elliot8654: Term limits may be a problem, as lobbyists don't. So the experienced special interest groups have more experience and leverage than the constantly new Congress people.

I would lean more for comprehensive financial election reform. Get the money out of politics, and that would hopefully prevent a lot of these issues.


Yup. What we need is disassociate lobbying, which can be a genuine need, from bribery.

What's needed is a more generalized definition of what "bribery" is. Currently, both the giver and recipient need to say something like, "I, Mr. Lobbyist, am giving you this amount of money in the expectation that you will vote in favor a bill S.1234," and "I, Senator Corrupted, am receiving your money with the plan to vote in favor of bill S.1234, strictly and primarily because of the money you gave me," in order for the transaction to be considered bribery.

What's needed is that any material benefit to a legislator is considered bribery independent of when it's given, by whom, and for whatever amount. All that's needed is to have the legislator's checking account be open to all to see, and that all expenses be paid by a debit card, so all expenses are open to all to see. Don't want people know you signed up for Pornhub Premium? Don't be a legislator, then. All gifts go to a legislator holding cell. If the giver of the gift cannot be determined, the gift is gifted away to some charity. If the giver of the gift is determined, then it is traced to make sure that the gift was "reasonable". For example, a tie Nordstroms for Christmas from mom: not a problem. A $50,000 tie from mom, who happens to be currently living in a senior home: a problem. Another example, a Tamiya plastic model tank as a gift from wife: not a problem. A real tank as a gift from wife, who works for BAE Systems. Actually, having a wife working at such a company should be verboten at the get-go.
 
2021-03-03 8:55:44 PM  

Do you even grift bro: Term limits are fixing the wrong problem. Get rid of the anti-democratic Senate before it's too late and expand the House.


Getting rid of the Senate is literal re-write of the Constitution  from the ground up, which might sound like a good idea, but if you're not thrilled about who is currently over represented in the Senate you're really not gonna like who's in the driving seat right now for Constitution Rev2
 
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