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(Some Guy)   Reason #43 of why Star Trek: Voyager was so screwed up: Chakotay was suppose to be Native American, but Robert Beltran was Mexican American so the producers hired a Native American consultant named Jamake Highwater who was actually Jewish   (redshirtsalwaysdie.com) divider line
    More: Facepalm, Native Americans in the United States, United States, Star Trek: Voyager, Native American descent, Jamake Highwater, Robert Beltran, Chakotay, Commander Chakotay  
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846 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 27 Feb 2021 at 9:05 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-02-27 5:20:45 PM  
townsquare.mediaView Full Size
 
2021-02-27 5:28:36 PM  
Akoocheemoya wasn't a real word?
 
2021-02-27 5:30:45 PM  
Yeah So? Jewish heritage passes through the female.
And there's a lot of 'gang bang on the wagon train' going on in the old west.
 
2021-02-27 5:30:52 PM  
Well that, and the psycho captain, the stupid Kazon, the nonsensical plotting for the Voyage, the ship that remained spacedock new, the endless supply of shuttles, Seska, the Ocampa, creeper Neelix etc.
 
2021-02-27 5:32:45 PM  
It didn't help that Beltran clearly didn't want to be there.

Also, consultant or no, the writers chose to write every Chakotay episode as a "Mystical Indian" story.
 
2021-02-27 5:36:35 PM  
In terms of voyager, this is almost an incidental level of fail
 
2021-02-27 5:47:42 PM  
I used to really like voyager but after watching it the last couple times all I can say is they needed to shove that captain into an airlock after she blew so many chances to get home over stupid moral bullshiat. The doctor became the star of the show.

I used to hate ds9 but it's now my favorite.
 
2021-02-27 5:48:13 PM  

Bslim: Well that, and the psycho captain, the stupid Kazon, the nonsensical plotting for the Voyage, the ship that remained spacedock new, the endless supply of shuttles, Seska, the Ocampa, creeper Neelix etc.


And that one planet that spun really fast.

/Actually liked that episode.
//I have really bad taste.
 
2021-02-27 5:52:44 PM  
Approves.

tvovermind.comView Full Size
 
2021-02-27 6:02:48 PM  

Farkenhostile: I used to really like voyager but after watching it the last couple times all I can say is they needed to shove that captain into an airlock after she blew so many chances to get home over stupid moral bullshiat. The doctor became the star of the show.

I used to hate ds9 but it's now my favorite.


I don't understand this "hate ds9" thing.

It has its bad episodes, but at its best it's brilliant.

/for a season 1 episode, Duet is just something else
 
2021-02-27 6:31:13 PM  
1) Many Mexican-Americans have some Native-American ancestry
2) For a Star Trek series not to suck, Roddenberry had to be alive at the time of its creation -- not necessarily elbow-deep in it (see the first versus subsequent seasons of TNG), but alive
3) Iron Eyes Cody was an Italian-American who wanted to be a Native
4) The proper term is Maid-Rite; calling it a loosemeat sandwich is almost as bad as putting ketchup on it
 
2021-02-27 7:08:18 PM  
Meanwhile, Kim is still an ensign.
 
2021-02-27 7:19:09 PM  

puffy999: Meanwhile, Kim is still an ensign.


Better than being the only enlisted guy in the entire service.
 
2021-02-27 7:24:42 PM  

NeoCortex42: puffy999: Meanwhile, Kim is still an ensign.

Better than being the only enlisted guy in the entire service.


There were just some things you couldn't do to an officer.

For everything else, there was the Chief
 
2021-02-27 7:30:13 PM  
Also he was Generic "Native American" cause they are all the same and just one big melting pot

Manly it was the myopic network executives being too involved in the process
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2021-02-27 7:49:55 PM  

NeoCortex42: puffy999: Meanwhile, Kim is still an ensign.

Better than being the only enlisted guy in the entire service.


There was that one, Crewman First Class Simon Tarses from TNG season 4 episode, "The Drumhead," who was the subject of a weird conspiracy investigation...
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2021-02-27 8:02:47 PM  

kkinnison: Also he was Generic "Native American" cause they are all the same and just one big melting pot

Manly it was the myopic network executives being too involved in the process


The sad thing is the premise that a Chakotay character was in the Maquis wasn't implausible based on the TNG season 7 episode, "Journey's End," but they never stated the planet in-question as Chakotay's homeworld depsite having had the opportunity to more strongly link him that way.

My takeaway of Beltran's performance, it's almost like he was playing a Vulcan.  Almost no on-screen emotion.  Some people may be like that in real life but that trait isn't terribly interesting, if a person who's that stone-faced is to be interesting it's despite that trait, not because of it.  If he'd been cast as the foil, a character that was there to be an obstacle or an annoyance, then it might have been fine for him to be stolid, but not when the characters of Riker and Kira set the modern archetype for what a first officer is to be.
 
2021-02-27 8:02:48 PM  
The core idea around the show was a little meh, but it held a single promise--that being stranded thousands of light years from Earth would prevent stupid time travel episodes urinating all over both canon and continuum.   

/That promise was quickly urinated upon.
 
2021-02-27 8:06:31 PM  
I think we can all agree. Year of hell would have made for an epic season long arc.

But

Reset button uber alles
 
2021-02-27 8:10:02 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


And here are two reasons Voyager was awesome
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2021-02-27 8:14:21 PM  

DeathBySarcasm: The core idea around the show was a little meh, but it held a single promise--that being stranded thousands of light years from Earth would prevent stupid time travel episodes urinating all over both canon and continuum.   

/That promise was quickly urinated upon.


I think one of their mistakes was that it was neither strongly serialized nor strongly episodic.  If it had been truly serialized then there would have been many more callbacks to previous events and fairly strong character development.  If it had been truly episodic then the general order of the episodes wouldn't have mattered very much, but it would have required not severely harming the ship in the course of the show.

By trying to be both they ended up with a magical ship that somehow was whole again no matter what happened to it, and characters that did not have strong development despite the extreme circumstances they were subjected to.  The Voyager herself should have more resembled the Borg-universe Enterprise from the TNG season 7 episode, "Parallels," where the ship was a wreck and so were its bridge crew.

Even if VOY hadn't allowed for significant breaking of the Prime Directive, in the episode where Tuvok does make the deal, the captain should have faced Tuvok being insubordinate and stopping the ship from leaving until they'd figured out how make use of the transport system that the planet had, if only to get however many tens of thousands of lightyears further.
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2021-02-27 8:15:46 PM  

ArkAngel: [Fark user image 850x637]

And here are two reasons Voyager was awesome


The two pads that were sewn-in to her costume?

/go watch her on Dark Skies
//she's a beautiful woman
///but that is not her physique
 
2021-02-27 8:31:44 PM  

TWX: ArkAngel: [Fark user image 850x637]

And here are two reasons Voyager was awesome

The two pads that were sewn-in to her costume?

/go watch her on Dark Skies
//she's a beautiful woman
///but that is not her physique


2 of D is not
 
2021-02-27 8:42:36 PM  

TWX: I think one of their mistakes was that it was neither strongly serialized nor strongly episodic.  If it had been truly serialized then there would have been many more callbacks to previous events and fairly strong character development.  If it had been truly episodic then the general order of the episodes wouldn't have mattered very much, but it would have required not severely harming the ship in the course of the show.

By trying to be both they ended up with a magical ship that somehow was whole again no matter what happened to it, and characters that did not have strong development despite the extreme circumstances they were subjected to.  The Voyager herself should have more resembled the Borg-universe Enterprise from the TNG season 7 episode, "Parallels," where the ship was a wreck and so were its bridge crew.

Even if VOY hadn't allowed for significant breaking of the Prime Directive, in the episode where Tuvok does make the deal, the captain should have faced Tuvok being insubordinate and stopping the ship from leaving until they'd figured out how make use of the transport system that the planet had, if only to get however many tens of thousands of lightyears further.


It's no secret that the writers were mostly at odds with producer Rick Berman, who very much wanted to keep the episodic approach... And why not when it had worked so well for TNG?  Because episodic narratives don't lend well to longer story arcs demanding more attention, such as a crew of terrorists being incorporated into crew positions.  Did anyone ever actually buy that, or were they all like 'okay, i'll suspend my disbelief, but I'd better see some cool space battles soon!'

So it wasn't just that the ship appeared artificial and shiny--it was also the characters, and how they interacted.  Everything was artifice, deus ex machina so blatant that neutral audiences with no opinion of the Star Trek universe were sure to walk way with a negative impression.
 
2021-02-27 8:55:03 PM  

ArkAngel: [Fark user image image 850x637]

And here are two reasons Voyager was awesome


She looks better, and more real, in Picard
 
2021-02-27 8:59:18 PM  
Voyager has some really good episodes. It should have had an overarching story ala DS9, which would have helped.

And Chakotay was a big disappointment. No doubt.
 
2021-02-27 9:01:03 PM  
Chakotay. Janeway
 
2021-02-27 9:06:26 PM  
From what I had heard they wanted to make him Mayan but then they realized "Oh shiat, there are actual Mayans with their own culture still alive and well who will be able to spot every mistake we make representing them and we can't just hire a Mayan as a script consultant because reason so Rubber Tree People it is."

I was so excited for Voyager because DS9 showed with the whole Emissary thing that you could have a story that is told in both a serial and episode format and the premise of Voyager seemed so fascinating. What would happen to a Federation ship stranded far from home trying to make their way back when it would take more than a single generation to get home. Would the ship and crew even be recognizable as Federation. Hell, would the descendants of the original Voyager crew even bother trying to make their way back home since it would be a home they've never known or would they just find an uninhabited planet along the way and set down roots (which honestly would have made the most sense anyway). How would a mixed Maquis and Federation crew get along? How would they make repairs when the only technology they'd have access to would be alien? What is the ship going to look like as its parts are slowly replaced along the way? What amazing species will they find.

When I heard the concept of the show I was excited. But instead we just got a less charismatic TNG crew following the basic TNG formula. Maquis and Federation crew having a culture conflict? Nope, everyone fell in line and other than the rank insignia you couldn't tell them apart. The ship? It'll look like it's come fresh from space-dock at the end of each episode. The aliens? Well even though they're supposed to be making a b-line for home they'll keep running into the exact same characters for a few years. It was such a bold concept completely flushed down the toilet to deliver a formulaic also-ran of a series. So disappointing.

Robert Picardo must have to sleep on a sheet of plywood from having to carry that show all by himself for so long.
 
2021-02-27 9:27:48 PM  
Hollywood, I am an authentic redneck, son of Arkansans who met in Alabama and had me in Tennessee near the Georgia border. One parent was a hillbilly daughter of an itinerate logger and farmer. The other a son of cotton sharecroppers. I speak authentic southern frontier gibberish.

/ Reasonable rates
 
2021-02-27 9:33:46 PM  
He was great in Night of the Comet though!

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-02-27 9:40:54 PM  
Janeway's decisions for Voyager basically boiled down to, "We have to do it. It's our only chance to get home sooner. I owe it to my crew to make this decision." or, "We're Starfleet. We will not abandon our moral principle and I won't abandon the prime directive, even if it takes us an extra 30 or 40 years to get home." and the writers basically just flipped a coin to see which one Janeway was going to make that episode.

It wasn't Kate Mulgrew's fault at all. She's a fantastic actor and she brought gravitas to the captain's chair. You believed she was a leader. But the writers... well... yeah...
 
2021-02-27 9:45:41 PM  

TWX: kkinnison: Also he was Generic "Native American" cause they are all the same and just one big melting pot

Manly it was the myopic network executives being too involved in the process

The sad thing is the premise that a Chakotay character was in the Maquis wasn't implausible based on the TNG season 7 episode, "Journey's End," but they never stated the planet in-question as Chakotay's homeworld depsite having had the opportunity to more strongly link him that way.

My takeaway of Beltran's performance, it's almost like he was playing a Vulcan.  Almost no on-screen emotion.  Some people may be like that in real life but that trait isn't terribly interesting, if a person who's that stone-faced is to be interesting it's despite that trait, not because of it.  If he'd been cast as the foil, a character that was there to be an obstacle or an annoyance, then it might have been fine for him to be stolid, but not when the characters of Riker and Kira set the modern archetype for what a first officer is to be.


Chakotay becoming Janeway's lapdog almost immediately, pretty much ruined that character from the very start. No wonder Beltran wanted out of that show. Apparently he'd push for raises hoping to get fired and they'd just kept giving them to him to keep him on.

Sounded like a rather toxic set. In the last shot of the series, everyone but Mulgrew and Picardo left the set without saying goodbye and about 5 minutes later the actual bridge was torn apart without any ceremonial crew party afterwards.
 
2021-02-27 9:50:45 PM  
I thought an interesting way they could have taken Chakotay would have been a member of the marquis, struggling to make it as a by-the-book Federation officer, while the Federation crew and Janeway deviate from official protocols from time to time.  He'd feel his background was inadequate and suppress his culture and differences in-order to fit in.  Then, he'd  regularly err because he tried too hard to fit the Federation model.  Janeway and crew would help him see that the values of the Federation were more important than it's formal rules.  Over a season or two, he would realize his culture and differences were his strengths and incorporate them into his leadership instead of suppressing them.

But they didn't invite this half-jewish, 1/16th Native American, 100% nerd to  the writers room.
 
2021-02-27 9:54:06 PM  

NeoCortex42: It didn't help that Beltran clearly didn't want to be there.

Also, consultant or no, the writers chose to write every Chakotay episode as a "Mystical Indian" story.


Which, frankly, was more than a little racist, usually embarrassing and completely wrong for the Star Trek universe.  In Star Trek, mankind was shown to have mostly jettisoned old fashion superstitions and religion - and been the better for it - but no, since we have a Native American character that means he has to be Magical and Mysterious, possessing special Indian powers that aren't real now and never were in the past.  So why clutter the future with such nonsense?
 
2021-02-27 9:54:20 PM  
That sounds like the "Drunk Irishman 'teaches' Dick Van Dyke to speak with an 'English' accent" situation.
 
2021-02-27 9:58:33 PM  

hobnail: Approves.

[tvovermind.com image 620x310]


he looks like mel brooks. weird
 
2021-02-27 10:01:12 PM  

Persnickety: NeoCortex42: It didn't help that Beltran clearly didn't want to be there.

Also, consultant or no, the writers chose to write every Chakotay episode as a "Mystical Indian" story.

Which, frankly, was more than a little racist, usually embarrassing and completely wrong for the Star Trek universe.  In Star Trek, mankind was shown to have mostly jettisoned old fashion superstitions and religion - and been the better for it - but no, since we have a Native American character that means he has to be Magical and Mysterious, possessing special Indian powers that aren't real now and never were in the past.  So why clutter the future with such nonsense?


I learned from my First Nations friends the term "Plastic Medicine Man" because of Voyager. They thought it was kind of amusing since they'd all met people like him in real life.
 
2021-02-27 10:10:24 PM  
Maybe it's a case of expectations.   TNG became so good after it got going, and DS9 was even better.   Fans could only be disappointed in Voyager even if it was just halfway decent.   It's a victim of franchise success.
 
2021-02-27 10:16:13 PM  

NeoCortex42: puffy999: Meanwhile, Kim is still an ensign.

Better than being the only enlisted guy in the entire service.


Laughs in Guy Fleegman!
 
2021-02-27 10:25:53 PM  
I don't think him being Mexican is much of a stretch from Native Americans anyway.  It is my understanding that there were people in Mexico at that time that were all very closely related to the Natives, if not the same people.

I'm no geneticist.  But I'm reasonably sure that's true.
 
2021-02-27 10:30:56 PM  

Stud Gerbil: Maybe it's a case of expectations.   TNG became so good after it got going, and DS9 was even better.   Fans could only be disappointed in Voyager even if it was just halfway decent.   It's a victim of franchise success.


I actually liked Voyager.  More than most people anyway.  I liked the characters.  I liked Janeway, Tuvok, Seven...  I liked the others too.  The doctor was great. Plus I liked the episodes.  They met some very interesting people with some very interesting problems.  Even if some of them were downright stupid.
Yes it had some really bad quirks.  But I still think it was way better than people give credit.

Oh, except for what that series to to The Borg.  That was very bad.  And too much time travel.
 
2021-02-27 10:48:32 PM  

durbnpoisn: Stud Gerbil: Maybe it's a case of expectations.   TNG became so good after it got going, and DS9 was even better.   Fans could only be disappointed in Voyager even if it was just halfway decent.   It's a victim of franchise success.

I actually liked Voyager.  More than most people anyway.  I liked the characters.  I liked Janeway, Tuvok, Seven...  I liked the others too.  The doctor was great. Plus I liked the episodes.  They met some very interesting people with some very interesting problems.  Even if some of them were downright stupid.
Yes it had some really bad quirks.  But I still think it was way better than people give credit.

Oh, except for what that series to to The Borg.  That was very bad.  And too much time travel.


Poor Tuvix...
 
2021-02-27 10:52:38 PM  

puffy999: durbnpoisn: Stud Gerbil: Maybe it's a case of expectations.   TNG became so good after it got going, and DS9 was even better.   Fans could only be disappointed in Voyager even if it was just halfway decent.   It's a victim of franchise success.

I actually liked Voyager.  More than most people anyway.  I liked the characters.  I liked Janeway, Tuvok, Seven...  I liked the others too.  The doctor was great. Plus I liked the episodes.  They met some very interesting people with some very interesting problems.  Even if some of them were downright stupid.
Yes it had some really bad quirks.  But I still think it was way better than people give credit.

Oh, except for what that series to to The Borg.  That was very bad.  And too much time travel.

Poor Tuvix...


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-02-27 10:56:56 PM  

carnifex2005: puffy999: durbnpoisn: Stud Gerbil: Maybe it's a case of expectations.   TNG became so good after it got going, and DS9 was even better.   Fans could only be disappointed in Voyager even if it was just halfway decent.   It's a victim of franchise success.

I actually liked Voyager.  More than most people anyway.  I liked the characters.  I liked Janeway, Tuvok, Seven...  I liked the others too.  The doctor was great. Plus I liked the episodes.  They met some very interesting people with some very interesting problems.  Even if some of them were downright stupid.
Yes it had some really bad quirks.  But I still think it was way better than people give credit.

Oh, except for what that series to to The Borg.  That was very bad.  And too much time travel.

Poor Tuvix...

[Fark user image 640x598]


Like Janeway gave him a grave...
 
2021-02-27 11:01:03 PM  
Jesus Christ, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

Just cast only white people from now on... that way no one will try to pillory you 20 years after the fact.
 
2021-02-27 11:01:43 PM  
I saw Beltran talk about the issue once.  The guy had absolutely no ability to communicate, he was just angry people didn't equate 'Mexican' with 'Indian' and never actually managed to get a single coherent statement on the subject out of his mouth.

He reached nobody, and the only thing he achieved was getting obviously pissed off at a crowd of fans that would have been happy to worship at his feet for agreeing to make that paid appearance in the first place.

Dude has issues.  Or did.  It's been a while, maybe he's over it now.
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2021-02-27 11:18:09 PM  

carnifex2005: TWX: kkinnison: Also he was Generic "Native American" cause they are all the same and just one big melting pot

Manly it was the myopic network executives being too involved in the process

The sad thing is the premise that a Chakotay character was in the Maquis wasn't implausible based on the TNG season 7 episode, "Journey's End," but they never stated the planet in-question as Chakotay's homeworld depsite having had the opportunity to more strongly link him that way.

My takeaway of Beltran's performance, it's almost like he was playing a Vulcan.  Almost no on-screen emotion.  Some people may be like that in real life but that trait isn't terribly interesting, if a person who's that stone-faced is to be interesting it's despite that trait, not because of it.  If he'd been cast as the foil, a character that was there to be an obstacle or an annoyance, then it might have been fine for him to be stolid, but not when the characters of Riker and Kira set the modern archetype for what a first officer is to be.

Chakotay becoming Janeway's lapdog almost immediately, pretty much ruined that character from the very start. No wonder Beltran wanted out of that show. Apparently he'd push for raises hoping to get fired and they'd just kept giving them to him to keep him on.

Sounded like a rather toxic set. In the last shot of the series, everyone but Mulgrew and Picardo left the set without saying goodbye and about 5 minutes later the actual bridge was torn apart without any ceremonial crew party afterwards.


It might well have been deeper than the set.  Remember, Star Trek: Voyager was one of the launch-shows for the new United Paramount Network.  Paramount was betting the farm on this network, and yet their own licensing agreements for TNG and TOS reruns, and for the syndication of DS9 meant they didn't even have their own legacy of popular shows to put on the network.  Many other UPN shows failed pretty quickly, so my guess is the entire Voyager production was put under tremendous strain to prop-up the enterprise.  It would be unsurprising if focus-group studies did the calulation that they had a fairly reliable base of Star Trek fans to start with, and then they started trying to implement what focus-groups or surveys were telling them to implement.  Unfortunately implementing to a formula without having good chemistry and without introducing character development to foster chemisty didn't serve them especially well.
 
2021-02-27 11:26:10 PM  

TWX: carnifex2005: TWX: kkinnison: Also he was Generic "Native American" cause they are all the same and just one big melting pot

Manly it was the myopic network executives being too involved in the process

The sad thing is the premise that a Chakotay character was in the Maquis wasn't implausible based on the TNG season 7 episode, "Journey's End," but they never stated the planet in-question as Chakotay's homeworld depsite having had the opportunity to more strongly link him that way.

My takeaway of Beltran's performance, it's almost like he was playing a Vulcan.  Almost no on-screen emotion.  Some people may be like that in real life but that trait isn't terribly interesting, if a person who's that stone-faced is to be interesting it's despite that trait, not because of it.  If he'd been cast as the foil, a character that was there to be an obstacle or an annoyance, then it might have been fine for him to be stolid, but not when the characters of Riker and Kira set the modern archetype for what a first officer is to be.

Chakotay becoming Janeway's lapdog almost immediately, pretty much ruined that character from the very start. No wonder Beltran wanted out of that show. Apparently he'd push for raises hoping to get fired and they'd just kept giving them to him to keep him on.

Sounded like a rather toxic set. In the last shot of the series, everyone but Mulgrew and Picardo left the set without saying goodbye and about 5 minutes later the actual bridge was torn apart without any ceremonial crew party afterwards.

It might well have been deeper than the set.  Remember, Star Trek: Voyager was one of the launch-shows for the new United Paramount Network.  Paramount was betting the farm on this network, and yet their own licensing agreements for TNG and TOS reruns, and for the syndication of DS9 meant they didn't even have their own legacy of popular shows to put on the network.  Many other UPN shows failed pretty quickly, so my guess is the entire Voyager production wa ...


I think I heard something where the Paris and Kim actors were talking years later and some of the BS that was going on behind the scenes.

It made me think the Kim guy was just being himself when he was whining on the show TBH. But it also made me understand how there was some shiat going on with the writers and producers and other upper folk.
 
2021-02-27 11:31:38 PM  
The list of screw ups with Native Americans is a million miles long.

One of my faves is getting a Syrian guy to play Native American on "Day of the Animals"

/Rifftrax with shirtless angry Leslie Neilsen, what's not to love
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2021-02-27 11:45:10 PM  

puffy999: I think I heard something where the Paris and Kim actors were talking years later and some of the BS that was going on behind the scenes.

It made me think the Kim guy was just being himself when he was whining on the show TBH. But it also made me understand how there was some shiat going on with the writers and producers and other upper folk.


I'd read somewhere that Garrett Wang almost didn't take the job, he hadn't been especially well acquainted with Star Trek and he kept running into that terrible TNG season 1 episode, "Code of Honor," where a race of people had some bizarre societal rules, and the original director ended up being fired seemingly for his racism in replacing the original reptillian model for the characters with black people.

Robert Duncan McNeill had the strongest performance initially on the show in my opinion, with Tim Russ a close second and Robert Picardo third.  When the Vulcan and the holographic computer simulation are stronger characters than the captain and first officer this is a problem.
 
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