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(Jezebel)   The rise and fall of Joss Whedon   (theattic.jezebel.com) divider line
    More: Awkward, Feminism, Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy, Angel, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight, strong women, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, good time  
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1801 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 26 Feb 2021 at 10:25 AM (11 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-02-26 9:13:02 AM  
and the Spiders from Mars?
 
2021-02-26 10:29:34 AM  
Dude had to be kept away from a 13-year-old working on his set. Realize what it had to take to get to that point and how they covered for his predatory behavior.
 
2021-02-26 10:30:48 AM  
I have a love hate relationship with many artists' works. This is on of the worst written things I've ever read. It made my soul itch.
 
2021-02-26 10:33:31 AM  
The charges I've seen against him seem to boil down to 'he's kind of dick'.

But, if Twitter says he needs to go, I guess he needs to go...
 
2021-02-26 10:34:31 AM  
Because Jezebel said so.
 
2021-02-26 10:39:10 AM  
I used to call this guy a douchebag years ago and everyone gave me shiat what the hell
 
2021-02-26 10:39:58 AM  
And it still adds up to:

Ray Fisher didn't like his time on set with Whedon (because when a new manager comes in they don't always want the old players)

And Charisma Carpenter feels she got fired because her pregnancy disrupted the production of Angel.

And that's it, that's the whole thing. What nebulous bullshiat.

(and the Dawn thing, maybe they had a rule where adolescents shouldn't be alone with any adults on the set, some schools have those rules, so who knows. But again, no one is accusing anyone of actually doing anything)
 
2021-02-26 10:42:55 AM  
I doubt whatever happened between Joss and Michelle was sexual in nature otherwise we'd have heard a lot more about that and/or similar statements.

That said, I don't doubt he may have either tried to or actively hit her or severely verbally abused her.

Yes, compared to Cosby and Weinstein he's likely not even close BUT being an abusive dick still makes you an asshole.

Doesn't matter if it's in a studio or at Office Max. Creating a toxic work environment is never acceptable.

/Now do Singer!!!
 
2021-02-26 10:45:34 AM  

Bslim: Dude had to be kept away from a 13-year-old working on his set. Realize Imagine what it had to take to get to that point and how they covered for his predatory behavior.


Predatory?  Why are you insinuating he's a pedophile when *N*O*B*O*D*Y* else has, not even his ex-wife?
 
2021-02-26 10:46:10 AM  
On one hand he's an asshole.

on the other...

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-02-26 10:46:45 AM  
No mention of beating Seth Green so badly at the Buffy wrap he had to be put into a medically induced coma for 90 days? Fine journalism there Lou.
 
2021-02-26 10:47:33 AM  

heather99: And it still adds up to:

Ray Fisher didn't like his time on set with Whedon (because when a new manager comes in they don't always want the old players)

And Charisma Carpenter feels she got fired because her pregnancy disrupted the production of Angel.

And that's it, that's the whole thing. What nebulous bullshiat.

(and the Dawn thing, maybe they had a rule where adolescents shouldn't be alone with any adults on the set, some schools have those rules, so who knows. But again, no one is accusing anyone of actually doing anything)


Based on what MT tried to type on SMGs post, it looks like something very bad.
 
2021-02-26 10:47:43 AM  
I'm skeptical about the whole Joss Whedon thing.

Oh sure, we have heard from Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanaz, Michelle Trachtenberg, Charisma Carpenter, Eliza Dushku, Amber Benson, James Marsters, and Marti Noxon about Joss Whedon's abusive behavior. And maybe, just maybe, their accusations have been supported by Anthony Head, Amy Acker, Emma Caufield, and Clare Kramer.

But have we heard peep from Alyson Hannigan? No, we have not. So excuse me if I take this all with a large grain of salt.
 
2021-02-26 10:48:25 AM  

Bluenosed Baker: No mention of beating Seth Green so badly at the Buffy wrap he had to be put into a medically induced coma for 90 days? Fine journalism there Lou.


Huh? Citation needed.
 
2021-02-26 10:50:31 AM  

Keyser_Soze_Death: Because Jezebel said so.


Wow, I know there are conflicting opinions about Charisma Carpenter but calling her a Jezebel is just harsh.

/liked her in Bound for obvious reasons.
 
2021-02-26 10:52:28 AM  

Aezetyr: Bluenosed Baker: No mention of beating Seth Green so badly at the Buffy wrap he had to be put into a medically induced coma for 90 days? Fine journalism there Lou.

Huh? Citation needed.


well how else do you explain Robot Chicken?
 
2021-02-26 10:56:10 AM  
2/25/21: This post has been updated with a more accurate definition of Equality Now and the nature of the organization's work. This post has also been updated to reflect the correct name of Sunnydale.

This post has also corrected references to the person in the article as "Josh", and removed the passage that implied that he voiced Ratatouille.
 
2021-02-26 10:58:56 AM  
heather99:

and the Dawn thing, maybe they had a rule where adolescents shouldn't be alone with any adults on the set, some schools have those rules, so who knows. But again, no one is accusing anyone of actually doing anything)

That's not normal, anywhere. But hey, dude made some quirky shows some of us all liked years ago, so it's all cool...
 
2021-02-26 11:04:47 AM  

Bslim: heather99:

and the Dawn thing, maybe they had a rule where adolescents shouldn't be alone with any adults on the set, some schools have those rules, so who knows. But again, no one is accusing anyone of actually doing anything)

That's not normal, anywhere. But hey, dude made some quirky shows some of us all liked years ago, so it's all cool...


Actually that's a smart rule whenever you're dealing with adolescents. Scouts strictly forbids an adult leader from being alone with a scout. There always has to be at least two adults present.
 
2021-02-26 11:06:10 AM  
It's a shame Joss has turned out to be a complete ass.

Looking back now on his work I find it interesting that while many of his female characters were strong and positive I cannot say the same for his male characters except maybe Wash and Book. All of his other male characters are cartoon evil or stereotypical emotionally closed off oblivious fools running around white knighting.
 
2021-02-26 11:11:30 AM  
It does seem kind of weird that he was this supposed monster, and yet had the same actors and actresses working for him on multiple projects.

But I guess in the entertainment industry you have to jump at whatever work leads you can get until you get really famous.
 
2021-02-26 11:11:43 AM  

Copperbelly watersnake: Bslim: heather99:

and the Dawn thing, maybe they had a rule where adolescents shouldn't be alone with any adults on the set, some schools have those rules, so who knows. But again, no one is accusing anyone of actually doing anything)

That's not normal, anywhere. But hey, dude made some quirky shows some of us all liked years ago, so it's all cool...

Actually that's a smart rule whenever you're dealing with adolescents. Scouts strictly forbids an adult leader from being alone with a scout. There always has to be at least two adults present.


Except that's not what happened here and it's the first time that I heard of a showrunner being barred from being alone with one of his stars (who happens to be a minor).
And excuse the hell out of me for thinking that the same business that covered for Wienstein, Cosby, Spacey etc. has been coddling another abusive predator.
 
2021-02-26 11:20:05 AM  
His success was underserved.

All he had was his whiteness, like a lotta folks.
 
2021-02-26 11:22:06 AM  
This game is boring, let's play guess the number I'm thinking.
 
2021-02-26 11:28:23 AM  

covfefe: This game is boring, let's play guess the number I'm thinking.


69?


/dude!
 
2021-02-26 11:42:25 AM  

Bslim: Dude had to be kept away from a 13-year-old working on his set. Realize what it had to take to get to that point and how they covered for his predatory behavior.


So you know what happened?
Please share.
 
2021-02-26 11:55:03 AM  
Joss Whedon wouldn't have fallen so hard if he hadn't been raised so high as the "feminist hero" director.
 
2021-02-26 12:10:11 PM  
Not according to a majority of farkers in these threads who continue to defend him.
 
2021-02-26 12:12:23 PM  
jesus...are we still beating this dead horse?

Joss Whedon is a dick. film at 11... he didn't rape anyone, he didn't murder anyone. he's just a raging asshole to some people...oh and he cheated on his wife.... CLEARLY that means nothing else matters.

/move the fark on.
 
2021-02-26 12:17:32 PM  

Keyser_Soze_Death: Because Jezebel said so.


I now doubt the existence of Joss Whedon, Hollywood, and rising and falling.
 
2021-02-26 12:27:50 PM  

heather99: And it still adds up to:

Ray Fisher didn't like his time on set with Whedon (because when a new manager comes in they don't always want the old players)

And Charisma Carpenter feels she got fired because her pregnancy disrupted the production of Angel.

And that's it, that's the whole thing. What nebulous bullshiat.

(and the Dawn thing, maybe they had a rule where adolescents shouldn't be alone with any adults on the set, some schools have those rules, so who knows. But again, no one is accusing anyone of actually doing anything)


https://www.themarysue.com/james-mars​t​ers-joss-whedons-spikes-popularity/
 
2021-02-26 12:29:43 PM  

darkmayo: Aezetyr: Bluenosed Baker: No mention of beating Seth Green so badly at the Buffy wrap he had to be put into a medically induced coma for 90 days? Fine journalism there Lou.

Huh? Citation needed.

well how else do you explain Robot Chicken?


Robot chicken has won more Emmys than Joss Whedon has.
 
2021-02-26 12:31:58 PM  

gunga galunga: I'm skeptical about the whole Joss Whedon thing.

Oh sure, we have heard from Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanaz, Michelle Trachtenberg, Charisma Carpenter, Eliza Dushku, Amber Benson, James Marsters, and Marti Noxon about Joss Whedon's abusive behavior. And maybe, just maybe, their accusations have been supported by Anthony Head, Amy Acker, Emma Caufield, and Clare Kramer.

But have we heard peep from Alyson Hannigan? No, we have not. So excuse me if I take this all with a large grain of salt.


Anthony Head said he didn't see any abusive behavior, but if it was happening, he's sad that they didn't feel they could tell him about it.
 
2021-02-26 12:35:38 PM  

taintbaggins: It's a shame Joss has turned out to be a complete ass.

Looking back now on his work I find it interesting that while many of his female characters were strong and positive I cannot say the same for his male characters except maybe Wash and Book. All of his other male characters are cartoon evil or stereotypical emotionally closed off oblivious fools running around white knighting.


Who he killed off.
 
2021-02-26 12:39:01 PM  
I remember him bragging about farking with fans about finally putting Amber Benson in the opening credits for Buffy only to kill her off in the same episode and thinking he was a prick. Firing Carpenter because of her pregnancy wasn't a secret way back when. His fans seemed to be fine with those things until recently. Whenever they were talked about on his uber-fansite Whedonesque, they were excused, and that place was lefty as hell. What is acceptable has certainly changed, but I'm not seeing anything that's new. This just seems like what Twitter, click-bait websites and the rest doing what Twitter, click-bait websites and the rest do today.
 
2021-02-26 12:47:27 PM  
So lemme see if I got this down: "Lefty" feminist Hollywood types will be embraced by "Patriots" as long as they are abusive, dicks and pedophilia adjacent.

GOT IT!
 
2021-02-26 12:49:10 PM  

EvilElecBlanket: I remember him bragging about farking with fans about finally putting Amber Benson in the opening credits for Buffy only to kill her off in the same episode and thinking he was a prick. Firing Carpenter because of her pregnancy wasn't a secret way back when. His fans seemed to be fine with those things until recently. Whenever they were talked about on his uber-fansite Whedonesque, they were excused, and that place was lefty as hell. What is acceptable has certainly changed, but I'm not seeing anything that's new. This just seems like what Twitter, click-bait websites and the rest doing what Twitter, click-bait websites and the rest do today.


Yeah, the CC stuff has been around for a very long time.
The only really new was Michelle Trachtenberg's really vague but worded to ensure to incite blind rage in those in search of their rage and hate fix.
 
2021-02-26 12:56:23 PM  
EvilElecBlanket:Whenever they were talked about on his uber-fansite Whedonesque, they were excused,

THIS SO MUCH!!!

I used to live with a friend that was HARDCORE Whedon fan... ANY criticism was immediately hand waved away.

"So, Aliens 3 huh?" "Yea BUT!!!!! they totally changed his script so it wasn't his movie..."

"You know, for being a supposed feminist writer his female characters seem to have a lot of terrible stuff happen to them compared to the male characters, almost sadistically so..." "You just aren't appreciating the narrative...."  

"Firefly seems to have A LOT of identical tropes to Outlaw Star" "Oh that's all just a coincidence..."

Like most fandumbs, their brain stops working at the door.
 
2021-02-26 1:00:00 PM  
The media keeps wanting to talk about how Whedon was a fake feminist because that's the juicier headline. But all the stories added together sound like he was just a monster boss to anyone he was annoyed with. An equal opportunity abuser, if you will.

I'm betting there's far more reasons no one wants to work with him now beyond "Hey, we just realized he was a jerk to the Buffy cast over two decades ago!" The dam still hasn't broken on all the Justice League dirt, but the news is still too preoccupied with the Buffy stories to really dig into what this guy has done currently. It could just be his most recent projects haven't been colossal successes, so he's no longer worth covering for in Hollywood's eyes. But it's starting to feel like there's a lot more to his fall from studio grace than we're hearing, and maybe it's about to surface. With the exception of Ray Fisher, who's very vocal about his dislike for Whedon, others who have worked with him lately have been very quiet. Not condemning, not defending, but just distancing.
 
2021-02-26 1:05:06 PM  

EvilElecBlanket: I remember him bragging about farking with fans about finally putting Amber Benson in the opening credits for Buffy only to kill her off in the same episode and thinking he was a prick.


Tara was my favorite characters in any show when I was younger.  I hated she was killed off.
 
2021-02-26 1:07:49 PM  
Does that mean that Disney will give back all the bazillions they made from the Avengers franchise?
 
2021-02-26 1:19:53 PM  

AAAAGGGGHHHH: Does that mean that Disney will give back all the bazillions they made from the Avengers franchise?


i.imgflip.comView Full Size
 
2021-02-26 1:22:11 PM  
Remember when Christian Bale completely went out of his mind when the director of photography dared to enter his line of sight when he was shooting a scene? Here's some news for you. When a studio treats someone like they are a diety who can do no wrong and let's them run wild that person tends to get a huge ego and starts treating those around them like lesser beings. That doesn't mean they are a child molester. I personally wouldn't leave a child alone with Bale for fear they would do something stupid and he would start verbally abusing them with no adults around to intervene.
 
2021-02-26 1:34:09 PM  
That... was a lot of words.
/ain't got no time fo dat
 
2021-02-26 1:40:56 PM  

Noah_Tall: Remember when Christian Bale completely went out of his mind when the director of photography dared to enter his line of sight when he was shooting a scene? Here's some news for you. When a studio treats someone like they are a diety who can do no wrong and let's them run wild that person tends to get a huge ego and starts treating those around them like lesser beings. That doesn't mean they are a child molester. I personally wouldn't leave a child alone with Bale for fear they would do something stupid and he would start verbally abusing them with no adults around to intervene.


Thing is, being an asshole doesn't end someone's career, it just makes you a temporary Internet joke that only lasts until the memes get tiresome. Hollywood is full of rage monsters. My impression is Whedon stepped on the wrong toes, threatened to become too much of a PR nightmare, or both. Age of Ultron and Justice League were crap, but they didn't lose money, and Whedon was still a more reliably profit-making director than many others out there. As bad as the Buffy stories are, the industry had successfully squelched them, and still would be if they thought Joss remained an asset.

I really think there's something else, and rather than wait for the lid to blow off, the studios are preemptively throwing Whedon to the wolves now. Being able to say later "See, we never liked that guy!" will help to sell plausible deniability that anyone knew about the bigger issue.

If one exists, of course. We're all just spitballing here. But my impression is something happened during Ultron that made Disney not mind so much when Whedon jumped ship to WB, and then something happened during Justice League that made WB want to cut ties as well.
 
2021-02-26 1:56:25 PM  

Capt_Clown: EvilElecBlanket:Whenever they were talked about on his uber-fansite Whedonesque, they were excused,

THIS SO MUCH!!!

I used to live with a friend that was HARDCORE Whedon fan... ANY criticism was immediately hand waved away.

"So, Aliens 3 huh?" "Yea BUT!!!!! they totally changed his script so it wasn't his movie..."

"You know, for being a supposed feminist writer his female characters seem to have a lot of terrible stuff happen to them compared to the male characters, almost sadistically so..." "You just aren't appreciating the narrative...."  

"Firefly seems to have A LOT of identical tropes to Outlaw Star" "Oh that's all just a coincidence..."

Like most fandumbs, their brain stops working at the door.


By friend you mean the Fark collective
 
2021-02-26 2:10:25 PM  

EdgeRunner: Noah_Tall: Remember when Christian Bale completely went out of his mind when the director of photography dared to enter his line of sight when he was shooting a scene? Here's some news for you. When a studio treats someone like they are a diety who can do no wrong and let's them run wild that person tends to get a huge ego and starts treating those around them like lesser beings. That doesn't mean they are a child molester. I personally wouldn't leave a child alone with Bale for fear they would do something stupid and he would start verbally abusing them with no adults around to intervene.

Thing is, being an asshole doesn't end someone's career, it just makes you a temporary Internet joke that only lasts until the memes get tiresome. Hollywood is full of rage monsters. My impression is Whedon stepped on the wrong toes, threatened to become too much of a PR nightmare, or both. Age of Ultron and Justice League were crap, but they didn't lose money, and Whedon was still a more reliably profit-making director than many others out there. As bad as the Buffy stories are, the industry had successfully squelched them, and still would be if they thought Joss remained an asset.

I really think there's something else, and rather than wait for the lid to blow off, the studios are preemptively throwing Whedon to the wolves now. Being able to say later "See, we never liked that guy!" will help to sell plausible deniability that anyone knew about the bigger issue.

If one exists, of course. We're all just spitballing here. But my impression is something happened during Ultron that made Disney not mind so much when Whedon jumped ship to WB, and then something happened during Justice League that made WB want to cut ties as well.


Well, it's pretty apparent he's an asshole. And I'm betting doesn't handle stress well. Which magnifies his assholeishness.
 
2021-02-26 2:30:16 PM  
Capt_Clown:
"You know, for being a supposed feminist writer his female characters seem to have a lot of terrible stuff happen to them compared to the male characters, almost sadistically so..."


terrible stuff happens to all of the characters in Whedons shows...not just the female characters. then again I suppose the best way to write equality into a series it to protect the female characters from any risk or consequences of the plot as if they were dainty little flowers right?

cuz action adventure TV shows are SOOOO much fun when there is no peril for the cast.

off the top of my head I can think of like 5-6 times male characters on a Whedon show were brutally tortured , maimed or outright mutilated  ... I can only recall one time it happened to a female character , being one of the "potential" slayers in an episode of Angel (she was kidnapped as a child and tortured/driven mad...institutionalized, then when she got her slayer powers broke out and started killing...OH and she tortured Spike and cut his hands off)... maybe twice if we count what the Alliance did to River Tam.

its not like he "Fridged" female characters for lack of anything better to do.

unless we want to count Warren accidentally killing Tara when he tried to kill Buffy... but since Tara was the love interest of a main female character (whose grief turned her into the seasons final "Big Bad" in an unexpected twist) does it really count as "Fridging"? since Tara had agency, and her death wasn't a lazy plot device to motivate a male character.
 
wee
2021-02-26 2:51:54 PM  
I honestly never understood his popularity. He deals in the same tropes, over and over again.
 
2021-02-26 3:01:47 PM  
That was an uninformative but well written summary of events and contexts... until that last paragraph.

- He eclipsed the contribution of the show's fans because their desire for a Buffy type character was just as important as the show providing it?

What the fark was that?
 
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