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(Vox)   Article claims "the future of the middle class depends on student loan forgiveness." That is ridiculous. Student loans or not, the American middle class has no future   (vox.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Debt, abundance of student loans, student debt story, student loans, Loan, stories of people, Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, student debt  
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379 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Feb 2021 at 1:43 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-02-26 9:18:15 AM  
Do loan forgiveness initiatives include Federal student loans which are usually limited to ~$4-6k a year or does this include private student loans?
 
2021-02-26 10:53:11 AM  
I'm sure folks will be along now any minute in this thread to tell me that I don't deserve forgiveness.   So let me just say.....kiss my bubble butt.

Thank you.
 
2021-02-26 11:09:09 AM  
Straight up wiping out student loans will never pass

What could pass and would become so fraught with fraud it shouldn't... is tax credits loan payments.
 
2021-02-26 1:05:13 PM  
That's nice but let's fix the problem and make education a national priority, not just another institution to drain away money.
 
2021-02-26 1:44:41 PM  
As long as conservatism is tolerated, the middle class will continue to diminish.
 
2021-02-26 1:44:55 PM  
I laugh because it's true 😭
 
2021-02-26 1:44:56 PM  
God, I wish Subby wasn't right but they're dead on.

The explicit goal is to make sure the Haves have everything and the Have-nots have nothing, and the reason that they're succeeding with such ease is that most of the Have-nots think they're in the Haves.
 
2021-02-26 1:45:29 PM  
Does the American middle class have a present? I figured they were like yetis or moderate Republicans or something.
 
2021-02-26 1:45:58 PM  
Are we not whining about what schools in San Francisco are named anymore?
 
2021-02-26 1:46:10 PM  
The middle class only existed after WWII for a bit when the rest of the world was cleaning up from being destroyed.
 
2021-02-26 1:47:47 PM  
frinkiac.comView Full Size
 
2021-02-26 1:47:54 PM  
It is so quintessentially American that much of the country doesn't see any problems with making education difficult to get.
 
2021-02-26 1:47:56 PM  

BadCosmonaut: Straight up wiping out student loans will never pass

What could pass and would become so fraught with fraud it shouldn't... is tax credits loan payments.


Student loan interest is already tax deductible. Being able to fully deduct payments wouldn't come close to helping.

Corporate America can't demand an educated workforce and then balk when it comes time to pay for that education. College is cheap and/or free in almost every other first world country. There's no reason not to wipe student loan debt and drop or eliminate the cost of getting a bachelor's
 
2021-02-26 1:48:56 PM  

raerae1980: I'm sure folks will be along now any minute in this thread to tell me that I don't deserve forgiveness.   So let me just say.....kiss my bubble butt.

Thank you.


Thank you for the invite Rae, but how about I just agree. I don't have a bubble butt, but I'll extend the same invite to the more boot-strappy among us.
 
2021-02-26 1:49:39 PM  
It strikes me so hard that the 1% have gotten so good at taking everyone else's money. We wind up owing money for 30 years to the 1% providing education so that we can go work in their businesses to make them more money.

It's indentured servitude by other means.
 
2021-02-26 1:50:20 PM  
It doesn't help our population that self-identifies as middle class make between $0-$380,000/year.

See also: "small" businesses
 
2021-02-26 1:50:35 PM  
images.rapgenius.comView Full Size
 
2021-02-26 1:52:33 PM  

edmo: That's nice but let's fix the problem and make education a national priority, not just another institution to drain away money.


federally guaranteed student loans are how we got here in the first place. colleges jacked up the price of well, everything, because the market was suddenly flush with loans that were easy to get and backed by Uncle Sam. rather than regulate the cost of college to ensure that it stayed affordable and universities couldn't take advantage of FAFSA loans, the government...didn't do that. and here we are. with a bachelor's (or some other certification that costs money0 being the new high school diploma (required to enter most of the workforce) and millions of people being crushed under thousands of dollars of debt that's dragging down the economy.
 
2021-02-26 1:52:40 PM  

BadCosmonaut: Straight up wiping out student loans will never pass

What could pass and would become so fraught with fraud it shouldn't... is tax credits loan payments.


Hey, you know what would be cool?

Once you graduate, work in the public sector for 10 years.  Once you've done that, the loan balance is wiped out.

Oh. Wait...we tried that, and the people that were supposed to forgive the loans found all sorts of reasons not to.

Assholes.
 
2021-02-26 1:54:09 PM  

Weird Hal: As long as conservatism is tolerated, the middle class will continue to diminish.


Capitalism, not conservatism. It is just a political wing of a bigger economic problem.

We saw this in the late 1920s and early 30s.
 
2021-02-26 1:54:37 PM  

raerae1980: I'm sure folks will be along now any minute in this thread to tell me that I don't deserve forgiveness.   So let me just say.....kiss my bubble butt.

Thank you.


Just tell them to FOAD Rae,
Edgelordus nasticus should be called out always
 
2021-02-26 1:54:43 PM  
Meanwhile, in the EU they pay you to go back to school.
 
2021-02-26 1:55:14 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-02-26 1:55:16 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: The middle class only existed after WWII for a bit when the rest of the world was cleaning up from being destroyed.


That wasn't actually a middle class, which is one of the big problems with American political discourse. There was a (brief) time when white workers were able to have a prosperous, middle-class lifestyle, and pretended that made them middle-class. The actual middle-class is not made up of people who work for wages. If you're paid a wage, you're not middle-class and never were. Middle-class people are doctors, lawyers, small business owners, and other people with significant but not overwhelming amounts of capital.
 
2021-02-26 1:55:43 PM  

BadCosmonaut: Straight up wiping out student loans will never pass

What could pass and would become so fraught with fraud it shouldn't... is tax credits loan payments.


It doesn't need to pass, Biden can cancel all of it himself. He won't, though. Is he still even going to cancel any?
 
2021-02-26 1:55:50 PM  
I find it amusing that the US thinks it has an upper class.
 
2021-02-26 1:56:06 PM  

Flowery Twats: BadCosmonaut: Straight up wiping out student loans will never pass

What could pass and would become so fraught with fraud it shouldn't... is tax credits loan payments.

Hey, you know what would be cool?

Once you graduate, work in the public sector for 10 years.  Once you've done that, the loan balance is wiped out.

Oh. Wait...we tried that, and the people that were supposed to forgive the loans found all sorts of reasons not to.

Assholes.


Bingo

Public librarian here, nothing was forgiven
 
2021-02-26 1:56:21 PM  

bainsguy: BadCosmonaut: Straight up wiping out student loans will never pass

What could pass and would become so fraught with fraud it shouldn't... is tax credits loan payments.

Student loan interest is already tax deductible. Being able to fully deduct payments wouldn't come close to helping.

Corporate America can't demand an educated workforce and then balk when it comes time to pay for that education. College is cheap and/or free in almost every other first world country. There's no reason not to wipe student loan debt and drop or eliminate the cost of getting a bachelor's


Those same countries also provide free healthcare where in America we pay exorbitant sums so that we don't get charged the non-insured rate at the hospital for our deductible.

America has become a racket. The 1% control the laws and give most people just enough to believe they are rich while creating societal distractions through media so that no one looks their way when the guillotines come out.
 
2021-02-26 1:57:03 PM  

bainsguy: BadCosmonaut: Straight up wiping out student loans will never pass

What could pass and would become so fraught with fraud it shouldn't... is tax credits loan payments.

Student loan interest is already tax deductible. Being able to fully deduct payments wouldn't come close to helping.

Corporate America can't demand an educated workforce and then balk when it comes time to pay for that education. College is cheap and/or free in almost every other first world country. There's no reason not to wipe student loan debt and drop or eliminate the cost of getting a bachelor's


Student loan interest is deductible up to $2,500, and that limit phases out based on income.   I have paid much more then that in a year.
Making every dollar of the payment - not just the interest - would be a huge help.
 
2021-02-26 1:58:23 PM  
I'm curious, has anyone looked into how much Biden's $10K offer mitigates the risk vs. the $50K Bernie and Warren are pressing for? I have to imagine that $10K will actually cover a healthy chunk, but knowing exactly how much of this outstanding debt is >10K vs. <10K seems very relevant.
 
2021-02-26 1:58:27 PM  
Subby, if you allow young folks to get on with their blossoming professional career without the overwhelming burden of 10k, 20k... 140k in debt, it might actually LEAD to a resurgence in the middle class.

Instead we have kids getting jobs out of college where even making 50k, they can't even afford a house because of student loan debt - even as low as 10k.

Study it out, Subby.
 
2021-02-26 1:58:29 PM  

quizzical: bainsguy: BadCosmonaut: Straight up wiping out student loans will never pass

What could pass and would become so fraught with fraud it shouldn't... is tax credits loan payments.

Student loan interest is already tax deductible. Being able to fully deduct payments wouldn't come close to helping.

Corporate America can't demand an educated workforce and then balk when it comes time to pay for that education. College is cheap and/or free in almost every other first world country. There's no reason not to wipe student loan debt and drop or eliminate the cost of getting a bachelor's

Student loan interest is deductible up to $2,500, and that limit phases out based on income.   I have paid much more then that in a year.
Making every dollar of the payment - not just the interest - would be a huge help.


there's no reason to compromise at all. we have the votes. let's use them.
 
2021-02-26 1:59:28 PM  

Uranus: I find it amusing that the US thinks it has an upper class.


What about the Fresh Prince of Bel Air? Or Burger King?
 
2021-02-26 1:59:39 PM  

raerae1980: I'm sure folks will be along now any minute in this thread to tell me that I don't deserve forgiveness.   So let me just say.....kiss my bubble butt.

Thank you.


How bad is it for you, Raerae?  I'm curious when the first red flags started popping up that things were getting out of control.

I remember one of my classmates despairing during a 3rd year project that he had $80k in loan debt, and I was terrified for him.  I can't help but wonder when he realized he was getting buried.

I did manage without loans, but I was fortunate enough to live within 15 miles of a world class engineering university, and my parents charged me only $200 a month for rent, utilities, and phone.
 
2021-02-26 1:59:49 PM  
Make them dischargeable in bankruptcy.  The people who need to get out can and the people who don't need to get out won't have to.  There's the risk that students will immediately declare bankruptcy after graduation, but we don't see people immediately declaring bankruptcy after buying a house.  If you're legitimately concerned about that, then set a 10 year limit.

This has a benefit and a drawback.  The drawback is that less loans will be given.  There is currently zero risk for the lender.  With bankruptcy, the risk rises so the chance of getting a loan will be based on what the lender thinks the borrower can pay.  This means they'll want to know what your major is and where you're getting it.  They'll also want to be sure you're going to graduate.  This might mean less people going to college.  This might not be a bad thing for a job market where you need a bachelors for an entry level job that you didn't need 40 years ago.

The benefit is that universities will be forced to cut costs somewhere.  Less fancy dorms, more students per class, more online, no more rock climbing walls at the CoRec, etc.  Maybe there's a limit here to how much cost you can ring out.  Maybe we're at Balmol's Cost Disease's limit and there's no more money to wring out (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol​%2​7s_cost_disease ).  Universities have already been screwing their adjunct professors even without less money coming in.  I don't know about this.

But the current system cannot keep going.  There has to be some way to reduce this crushing debt which is negatively impacting the lives of so many people and only benefiting debt collectors and student loan bond investors.
 
2021-02-26 2:00:02 PM  
Just make public universities and community colleges free starting now.  Remove electives from all degree requirements.
 
2021-02-26 2:00:46 PM  

raerae1980: I'm sure folks will be along now any minute in this thread to tell me that I don't deserve forgiveness.   So let me just say.....kiss my bubble butt.

Thank you.


I thought there was already a line for that?
 
2021-02-26 2:01:02 PM  

UndeadPoetsSociety: Peter von Nostrand: The middle class only existed after WWII for a bit when the rest of the world was cleaning up from being destroyed.

That wasn't actually a middle class, which is one of the big problems with American political discourse. There was a (brief) time when white workers were able to have a prosperous, middle-class lifestyle, and pretended that made them middle-class. The actual middle-class is not made up of people who work for wages. If you're paid a wage, you're not middle-class and never were. Middle-class people are doctors, lawyers, small business owners, and other people with significant but not overwhelming amounts of capital.


I really like this. Do you have a reference for this definition?
 
2021-02-26 2:01:15 PM  
Betsy DeVos is a bioterrorist and terrorist financier.
 
2021-02-26 2:01:28 PM  
As a first person in my entire family, including extended family, to go straight to college I had no idea what I was doing. The only other person to go to college in my family was my mother. She slowly made her way through school most of my childhood and graduated from law school my second year of college. She had no idea what she was doing with student loans either and was of no assistance to me. She mostly got grant money. Of course she got a decent paying job and after my freshman year of school I had to take all loans because my parents income was too much for me to get grants. Although in actuality my parents were still broke and couldn't help me. The schools throw loans at you and I honestly had no idea how much I would owe at the end and thought I would make bank as a lawyer. NOPE. I owe 125K in government loan and 65K in private law school loan. The private law school loan I have paid 75K on it so far. The original amount was 73K and I still owe the 65K. I really didn't understand that in my late teen early 20's. A large portion of my income goes to student loans. I think students need to be educated on the finances of college. Some students are lucky and have parents that have been through it, but many don't.
 
2021-02-26 2:01:35 PM  

Grungehamster: I'm curious, has anyone looked into how much Biden's $10K offer mitigates the risk vs. the $50K Bernie and Warren are pressing for? I have to imagine that $10K will actually cover a healthy chunk, but knowing exactly how much of this outstanding debt is >10K vs. <10K seems very relevant.


Fark user imageView Full Size
from here

10k forgiveness isn't helpful. it's a half-assed compromise.
 
2021-02-26 2:03:57 PM  

special20: Uranus: I find it amusing that the US thinks it has an upper class.

What about the Fresh Prince of Bel Air? Or Burger King?


fair enough. I also forgot Queen Latifah - there's royalty.
 
2021-02-26 2:04:37 PM  

Nana's Vibrator: Just make public universities and community colleges free starting now.  Remove electives from all degree requirements.


I already hear all the screams for those who paid for college.

"Why do they get it for free and I had to pay for it? This isn't fair! Socialism!"
 
2021-02-26 2:06:06 PM  

Uranus: I find it amusing that the US thinks it has an upper class.


Uh, what do you call upper class? 8 of the 10 richest people in the work are in the United States.
 
2021-02-26 2:06:26 PM  

Nana's Vibrator: Remove electives from all degree requirements.


Really? Was Art Appreciation 1101 that hard?
I honestly never understood why any humanities classes were classified as elective. You end up being some book smart drone without a damned thing to talk about. What a boring person you'd be coming out of school with no idea that the gas station velvet painting you love is not worth as much as you paid for it.
 
2021-02-26 2:07:49 PM  
Hahahahaha
Like there's a "middle class".
"Middle class" is defined more accurately today by your possessions than your income. If you go into debt and have the right things, "middle class" Americans will admire you.
There's so many people making close to poverty wages who consider themselves "middle class" , and they vote conservative all the time because they believe that they can cash in on "American Dream".
 
2021-02-26 2:08:00 PM  

Uranus: I find it amusing that the US thinks it has an upper class.


No we don't have titles of nobility, what's your point?
 
2021-02-26 2:08:32 PM  
If only were were a developed nation.
 
2021-02-26 2:08:49 PM  

cowsaregoodeating: Uranus: I find it amusing that the US thinks it has an upper class.

Uh, what do you call upper class? 8 of the 10 richest people in the work are in the United States.


and they're classy, right?
 
2021-02-26 2:10:11 PM  

bainsguy: Grungehamster: I'm curious, has anyone looked into how much Biden's $10K offer mitigates the risk vs. the $50K Bernie and Warren are pressing for? I have to imagine that $10K will actually cover a healthy chunk, but knowing exactly how much of this outstanding debt is >10K vs. <10K seems very relevant.

[Fark user image 812x422]from here

10k forgiveness isn't helpful. it's a half-assed compromise.


It's a compromise with the worst of the GOP.   Which isn't so much a compromise as it is a surrender.
 
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